Soul music

[Grandpa Markley]

I was wondering what everybody thought of playing soul on the mandolin? Does that genre of music fit with mandolin play? I must specify, I am talking about 60's soul music, Ben E. King (would love to hear stand by me on mando), Temptations, Supremes, etc. I suppose that era of rock could be thrown in to the conversation as well. Thoughts?

[Mike Bunting]

Hold On, I'm Strummin'

[MojoTwanger]

I don't see why not. As long as it is not contrived and the player has good chops, I bet it would sound just fine.

[Steve Lavelle]

The only limits to what kind of music that a mandolin can play is your imagination and skill level. The type of soul you're talking about is a little too slow for my tastes, but I have done Stand By Me on mando as a reggae tune. My Girl is another one that can be fun on mando, too. There are no rules. Right now I'm working on a fiddle tune medley with a verse and chorus of Back in Black thrown into the middle of it for a Halloween gig we have coming up.

[Mike Snyder]

It does sound just fine. Motown or Staxx. I'm fortunate to get into jams 2-3 times a year with folks flexible enough to go there, mostly at Winfield. I love it, that's the music of my youth and it flows in my veins. Sam and Dave, Martha and the Vandellas,Gladys Night & the Pips, Little Anthony and the Imperials, Temptations, Aretha, Al Green, Supremes, even some funk, Sly and the Family Stone, Parliament Funkadelic. Get a bass who knows his stuff and a good accordion, you're off, sport. Keep us posted.

[Mike Snyder]

Funk sounds good acoustic, too. George Clinton and some Sly. I get in a couple of jams a year where folks have the temperment and chops to play Motown and Staxx stuff. Little Anthony and the Imperials, Aretha, Martha and the Vandellas, Gladys Night and the Pips, Al Green, Temptations, Smokey Robinson, Spinners. Get a bass who knows his stuff a good accordion player, you're off. Let us know how it goes.

Sorry, double post.

[strings777]

Hold On, I'm Strummin'

:)) another classic I'd like to learn on the mando is "I'm a Skoal Man" :grin:

[jim simpson]

Broke out "Midnight Hour" the other night at the jam, it went over pretty well. It seemed like we had a stretch of non trad bluegrass with the Stones, "It's All Over Now" & "Honky Tonk Woman" plus Bee Gees "To Love Somebody".

[journeybear]

I've said it before, I'll say it again - you are limited by only your ability, your sensibility, and your imagination. The mandolin doesn't get used this way too often - and back then I don't think it showed up at all in soul music - but that doesn't mean it can't work. All you need to do is know how to get the sound you want, be able to tell whether it's working, and above all, be able to hear in your mind how the instrument fits in the music, and how the music fits the instrument.

A lot of the chords that give soul music its distinctive sound sound really cool on the mandolin - those 7ths, minor 7ths, and major 7ths, plus cadences like IIm7 - V7. Pick a few of your favorite songs and have a go. :mandosmiley: Now, it may be an exercise in futility to try to replicate exactly what you hear in these songs - for instance. Steve Cropper's guitar work is distinctive and uses voicings that are natural for guitar but perhaps not so much for mandolin - but you should be able to find ways to play chords and riffs that sound right but are more natural for the mandolin. You want it to sound like a mandolin, not like a guitar, but still sound like soul music. I hope that makes sense.

Good luck! And by all means, have fun!

[SincereCorgi]

You could... I mean, it's not illegal, but it's like playing calypso on the harp. The mandolin is one of those instruments that can turn anything into elevator music if you're not careful.

[250sc]

The mandolin doesn't create elevator music but a musician can.

[jaycat]

"Willie and Laura Mae Jones" and "Don't It Make You Wanna Go Home" are two standards in my book. I also used to sing & play "My Girl" to my dear departed Zoe.

(Zoe was an Aussie Shepherd, we put her down on April 12. Second-best woman I ever had).

[Marty Henrickson]

I tried to find a YouTube of Bearfoot doing "Won't Be Long" off of their "Back Home" CD, but I couldn't. It's bluegrass, but it sounds like Motown to me. If those fiddles aren't playing horn parts, I don't know what they're doing. Good stuff, check it out.

[Don Julin]

One of the bands I play in (The Claudia Schmidt Funtet) does a wide variety of music including what some may consider soul music. Here is clip of us doing Danger Zone by Percy Mayfield. I just love working with Claudia. In fact we have a gig tonight! In this video I am playing a Harmony Batwing (different pickup) through a blue Harmony tube amp. Both from the 1960s.

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[jaycat]

Nice solo on that!

[Steve Ostrander]

Don, that's some very soulful pickin' and a fabulous arrngement. I really enjoyed it.

[mandocrucian]

You want it to sound like a mandolin, not like a guitar, but still sound like soul music.
Well.......Until you actually understand the ins and out and how the soul/funk grooves are contructed and how they function, you want it to sound like a guitar. After you've learned/internalized the "rules" then you can let the mandolin begin to evolve the vocabulary into one "friendlier" to the mando tuning and neck.

I spent a considerable amount of time studying soul/R&B/funk (and rockabilly, blues and rock); putting the grooves onto mandolin - as a functional substitute for a guitar (not as "novelty mando"). But learning the rhythm guitar parts on the mando neck (as close to the actual guitar voicings as possible) was only one component; which as far as I'm concerned is incomplete unless you know/understand the bass and drum parts and how the "guitar" interacts with either/both of those. Soul/funk/rock/etc is constructed completely differently than bluegrass/country/old-time; the grooves are composite in nature - the various instruments of the rhythm section interlock and bounce off each other. A county guitar strum is complete unto itself - it can function in a solo configuration, but most soul/funk guitar are part of an overall (composite) of gtr/bass/drums and sound confusing/incomplete/monotonous/..... in isolation.

I would learn the guitar part(s), then the bass lines, as well as the basic drum groove. Then I'd sit down at the (organ) bass pedals and the 1-foot-drum-kit and slowly start putting the parts together - bass line & drums, bassline w/"guitar", drums & "guitar" and eventually,...... all three simultaneously. (which can be a mind stretcher). When you start to replicate the entire rhythm section, you really start to understand (and feel) interlocking/compiosite grooves.

Just some of the tunes/grooves that come to mind:
(ones in bold were used as demonstration vehicles in some of my old rhythm mando workshops)

"Sing A Simple Song" - Sly & The Family Stone
"Get Ready" - Temptations
"Lonely Teardrops" Jackie Wilson
"I Can't Stand It" - James Brown
"Soul Man" - Sam & Dave
"Midnight Hour" - Wilson Pickett
"Baby I Love You" - Aretha
"I'll Go Crazy" - James Brown
"Papa's Got A Brand New Bag" - James Brown
"Try Me" - James Brown
"Cold Sweat" - James Brown
"Poison Ivy" - Coasters
"Stand By Me"
"Rescue Me" - Fontella Bass
"It's All Right" - Impressions
"Working In A Coal Mine" - Lee Dorsey

Whether it was was worth the effort?..... From the musician standpoint - highly educational/beneficial;

from the "professional mandolinist" standpoint - minimal, in fact, perhaps even "counterproductive" as far as the music biz ramifications were concerned; should have just learned all on guitar.

Niles H.

[billkilpatrick]

"it's a man's world" - first time i tried double tracking using garageband on my ancient mac:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etyWiSKa1IQ&list=PL0E6DF9182DC5E8D9&index=9

[William Smith]

Yep any music is sweet on the mando! "We better draw the line on Gangsta rap though,,Oh great I just gave away my $ makin secret!?!?":crying:

[PJ Doland]

It's more blues than soul, but it's probably worth mentioning that "She Caught the Katy" was co-written by Yank Rachell.

[catmandu2]

... should have just learned all on guitar.


Sobering for the mandolinist. But honest ;)



Yep any music is sweet on the mando!

I think this--the sweetness of the mandolin--is what limits the mandolin in respect to the genre here. In some music, it's better to just say "no."

Does that genre of music fit with mandolin play?

[mandocrucian]

I agree with Niles that--there are some genres where the mandolin is not all that good: in some music, it's better to just say "no."


You misunderstand me. Mando sounds* fine for R&B. So much of the rhythm guitar is percussive, or muted, not to mention being played in the high (guitar)register. So you can pretty much duplicate a lot that stuff, without having to transpose the actual part up an octave on a mando (though you may have to do some split-string chords and/or split-string doublestops on the low(er) mando strings to replicate the guitar voicings and maintain a fatter sound). *But you have to incorporate all the techniques of right-hand muting, or lots of slurring techniques in the case of Curtis Mayfield stuff, get the right timing feel, etc. to make it sound "right", and not like a folky or bluegrasser faking it.

As far a the "professional" aspects (i.e. music biz) of spending the time getting it down on a mandolin; it's unnappreciated (irrelevent) by most mando players who are locked into a BG/NG or ITM mindset. (Or even resented by the more.....um, how shall I put this.........? ...contingent that feel mandolin is a "white instrument" that should be used for playing culturally "white music".

And on the other hand, mandolin itends to be also viewed/stereotyped as a "hillbilly instrument", and as such, 'no mandolins need apply' outside the usual mandofriendly-genre enclaves. I suppose if you are already accepted as funk or blues guitarist, your cohorts in the genre will be much more open to you doing some of that music on the mando.

From the "professional" aspect (pros/cons), going against the grain and the norm (via mandolin) probably costs you much more than you would gain. (the personal musicianship improvement aspect is something completely different than the biz financial ramifications). From the "biz" perspective, you'd be much better off putting in the effort on a guitar or keys.

[Don Julin]

I agree with Niles that mandolin, especially electric mandolin can and does fit well into R&B and Soul music but ONLY if you study the style. Unfortunately there are many mandolin players with the attitude of "if you ain't bluegrass you ain't s**t". I truly love music, and I truly love playing mandolin. I like everything from Bill Monroe to Led Zeppelin to Miles Davis to Frank Zappa and I don't care what is costs me financially, I am not switching over to guitar! Long live mandolins!

[journeybear]

You could... I mean, it's not illegal, but it's like playing calypso on the harp.

Yeah, if you want to play calypso, use a mandolin! Thats what *I* do. ;)

Nice stuff there, Don. Reminds me that my old jug band used to do Percy Mayfield's "Please Send Me Someone To Love." There are more ways to skin a cat than one, and even if they have nine lives that doesn't keep them safe from adventurous spirits forever. :grin:

Niles, the point I was trying to make - and we're not that far apart on this - in a short, sound-bitish way, is that mandolins and guitars have particular characteristics and each can replicate but not duplicate the sound of the other, so what the OP should aim for is finding a way to make the music sound right without trying too hard (and beating his head against the wall in the process) to sound like a guitar. Of course, he will be learning the guitar parts, but the fingerings are different on a mandolin, and he has two strings (notes) less to work with, so he won't be able to duplicate them exactly, note-for-note, 100%. My advice - and that's all it is, because he will have to figure this out for himself - was to figure out mandolin-based solutions to the issues that will arise.

Well, that, and have fun! :)

[mandocrucian]

and I don't care what is costs me financially, I am not switching over to guitar! Long live mandolins!

:)) Man, I've heard that one before!!! :))
Even used to say the same things myself in years past!

(BTW: Had a couple of serious attempts at the guitar-switcheroo derailed by RSIs.):crying:

But as the Tull song says... "It was an old day yesterday, but it's a new day now."
or, to quote Hank Sr....."I seen the light...."

[strings777]

"it's a man's world" - first time i tried double tracking using garageband on my ancient mac

Wow, that was really enjoyable Bill...you have a great voice! :)

[billkilpatrick]

one of the positive aspects of this music on mandolin is that it isn't what's expected - the song (serve the song!) is heard differently; hopefully appreciated. most of the detroit music i remember was arranged - which is wonderful - but when played on the mandolin (acoustic mandolin in particular) the songs come across as "me to you" type soul music, as opposed to the big production, mo-town "soul factory" variety.

as for learning the guitar ... bearing in mind that i never had to feed my family from the music i make - it never was a job (hats off to you, nils - mega respect) - i found a lot of these songs are so much easier to figure out on the mandolin - the fingerboard makes much better sense.

[Brent Hutto]

"it's a man's world" - first time i tried double tracking using garageband on my ancient mac:

Bill, I've just gotta say...

Damn, but that was fine!

[catmandu2]

You misunderstand me. Mando sounds* fine for R&B.

Well I'll agree to disagree then. For me, the sweet sound of mandolin just isn't the sound I'm hearing in the idiom. (But I don't like it for Bach either)

[jaycat]

. . . Soul/funk/rock/etc is constructed completely differently than bluegrass/country/old-time; the grooves are composite in nature - the various instruments of the rhythm section interlock and bounce off each other. . . . but most soul/funk guitar are part of an overall (composite) of gtr/bass/drums and sound confusing/incomplete/monotonous/..... in isolation.


Here's a great example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukOs3am7CtE

[journeybear]

Well, yeah! If you can swing that guitar part, introduced at :39, you're well on your way. ;) Thing is that was created on guitar, for guitar; making that work for mandolin might be a little tricky. But something similar created on mandolin, for mandolin, might work just fine, even if it isn't exactly the same.

There were a few songs like this back then - break it down, put it back together. I don't know which came first, but because I heard this later, I thought it was kind of a Memphis answer to "Tighten Up" by Archie Bell & The Drells. The guitar part in this is sweet, a great example of what a rhythm guitar or mandolin should be able to do in soul music. Someone with better ears than mine can tell you what chords these are - I tend to just play 7ths and hope that's good enough, but there may well be some 9ths in there too.

Wro3bqi4Eb8

[Polecat]

Not quite sixties soul, but inspired by it:

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My bands take on Van Morrison. I started out just playing on 2 and 4, then added a few fills in (I hope) stax/atlanta style, that's what I was going for, anyway. None of it is a direct copy of a guitar part, I just played what was technically (for me) feasible and sounded right.

[jaycat]

Well, yeah! If you can swing that guitar part, introduced at :39, you're well on your way. ;) Thing is that was created on guitar, for guitar; making that work for mandolin might be a little tricky. But something similar created on mandolin, for mandolin, might work just fine, even if it isn't exactly the same.

There were a few songs like this back then - break it down, put it back together. I don't know which came first, but because I heard this later, I thought it was kind of a Memphis answer to "Tighten Up" by Archie Bell & The Drells. The guitar part in this is sweet, a great example of what a rhythm guitar or mandolin should be able to do in soul music. Someone with better ears than mine can tell you what chords these are - I tend to just play 7ths and hope that's good enough, but there may well be some 9ths in there too.

Wro3bqi4Eb8

"We dance just as good as we want!" . . . love it.

Probably major 7ths and 9th chords, to my untuned ear.

[Dan Hoover]

wow,king curtis..what a sad story...

[jaycat]

Very nice solo, Polecat!

[Polecat]

Thank you jaycat!

I can't hear any 9ths in the "Tighten Up" Guitar part, only maj7s. It's basically Gbmaj7 and Bmaj7, shapes that worked for me are:

http://s3.imgimg.de/thumbs/LSO10044035213105jpg.2.jpg

(Hope thats legible). If you play the 9ths against the chords (that would be Ab and Db) they clash, so I´m fairly sure the guitar player isn't being that jazzy, but he's got a killer right hand!

[Jim]

I don't know if it's truly in the genre but " People get ready" works great on Mandolin. I use the guitar intro ( on Mandolin) jeff Beck used with Rod stewarts version and then play a blue take on the melody for instrumental breaks.

[journeybear]

Jaycat - I always thought it was, "We dance just as good as we walk," but if Archie can't hardly sing, by his own admission, maybe he isn't that clear at speaking either. ;) No big whup, anyway.

Polecat - Thanks for the chords. Just so you know - and everyone should know this - one shouldn't mix flat and sharp chords in notation. In this case, you should have said F#ma7 rather than Gbma7. I don't want to belabor the point or sidetrack the thread, but that is the convention.

[mandolirius]

My Girl, with mandolin:

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[Ed Goist]

My Girl, with mandolin:

77262

Very nice! Thanks for posting.

[billkilpatrick]

very nice ... i can't resist temptation either:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0X51jnYTe4&list=PL0E6DF9182DC5E8D9&index=13

[JeffD]

Knowing the idiom, knowing how the parts function and how they work with each other - all real important.

I think it is the difference between playing a soul tune on the mandolin (easy), and playing soul on the mandolin (the real goal).

You want to evoke in the audience what that kind of music evokes.

[jaycat]

Very nice! Thanks for posting.

+1! Hey, who's your vocalist there -- what a lovely voice!

[mandolirius]

Her name is Rhonda Broadfoot.

[jaycat]

Then you would be in the Silver String Band? Nice stuff.

[mandolirius]

Thanks. That was actually meant as a one-off, opening for Chris Jones & the Nightdrivers. We wound up doing a few more gigs but the banjo player had too many other commitments for another band, so we devolved down to a duo.

Lack of banjo is a peculiar Victoria problem. Really only two good ones and they are in bands already. Anyone know of a banjo player who might like to move to Victoria? We have a band and work, but no banjo. It's a great place for young, unattached guys. It's not for nothing this place is nicknamed "Chictoria".

[mandolirius]

Thanks. That was actually meant as a one-off, opening for Chris Jones & the Nightdrivers. We wound up doing a few more gigs but the banjo player had too many other commitments for another band, so we devolved down to a duo.

Lack of banjo is a peculiar Victoria problem. Really only two good ones and they are in bands already. Anyone know of a banjo player who might like to move to Victoria? We have a band and work, but no banjo. It's a great place for young, unattached guys. It's not for nothing this place is nicknamed "Chictoria".

BTW, I'm totally serious. We need a banjo player. Victoria has Canada's mildest climate and is a wonderful place to live. PM me if interested.

[mandolirius]

I think it is the difference between playing a soul tune on the mandolin (easy), and playing soul on the mandolin (the real goal).

It'd be hard to play "soul on the mandolin". You'd really need the right kind of rhythm section. Without that, I don't think you could truly create the soul sound. It's like playing a bluegrass tune on mandolin and guitar, but it's not really bluegrass until you get the other instruments in there.

One thing I've always thought is that soul and funk bands have something in common with bluegrass bands, in that they need to function in a certain way, with every instrument performing its specific rhythmic role.

[JeffD]

It'd be hard to play "soul on the mandolin". You'd really need the right kind of rhythm section. Without that, I don't think you could truly create the soul sound. It's like playing a bluegrass tune on mandolin and guitar, but it's not really bluegrass until you get the other instruments in there.

One thing I've always thought is that soul and funk bands have something in common with bluegrass bands, in that they need to function in a certain way, with every instrument performing its specific rhythmic role.

I think you are exactly right. It would be difficult. But that is the goal really. Just grabbing some funky tune from a beloved album, and playing the tune on the mandolin, even doing a competent job at playing it recognizably, ain't the same as playing soul. You may evoke the original tune, and that tune will evoke all the stuff that "soul" evokes, but we are after the direct effect.

[catmandu2]

It'd be hard to play "soul on the mandolin". You'd really need the right kind of rhythm section. Without that, I don't think you could truly create the soul sound. It's like playing a bluegrass tune on mandolin and guitar, but it's not really bluegrass until you get the other instruments in there.

One thing I've always thought is that soul and funk bands have something in common with bluegrass bands, in that they need to function in a certain way, with every instrument performing its specific rhythmic role.

It's kinda like "bluegrass on the autoharp"--some may say it's effective, (but mostly not ;)). How do we judge?--how evocative it is, of course--OMV (OTOH, some autoharp "bluegrass"-type music is pretty good [evocative] :( )

All ensemble music has discrete parts that form the whole, and in the case of essentially rhythmic forms (R&B, bluegrass, etc.), it's neat to see the time dispersed throughout the ensemble much as the harmony does in other (less rhythmic) types of ensembles. Reggae is like this, and many other dance forms...salsa is my favorite for sure. One reason why I love jazz music so much--it often exploits complex rhythms, like Latin music does all the time. I enjoy harmony, but I love my complex riddim...best when music got both!

[mandolirius]

I think you are exactly right. It would be difficult. But that is the goal really. Just grabbing some funky tune from a beloved album, and playing the tune on the mandolin, even doing a competent job at playing it recognizably, ain't the same as playing soul. You may evoke the original tune, and that tune will evoke all the stuff that "soul" evokes, but we are after the direct effect.

Really don't know how you'd accomplish that with a mandolin only. And who is the "we" you refer to?

[catmandu2]

... Just grabbing some funky tune from a beloved album, and playing the tune on the mandolin, even doing a competent job at playing it recognizably, ain't the same as playing soul. You may evoke the original tune, and that tune will evoke all the stuff that "soul" evokes, but we are after the direct effect.

Now that ML mentions it...

For me, the song (or tune) played on a mandolin may evoke SOME of the stuff from my memory/experience of the tune or song...but in a form like particularly soulful R&B, Motown, Stax, etc....ah, well, there's a whole lot more going on there than just approximating the tune (or song) on a mandolin will evoke. For me.

Don't forget--we're talking about id music

[foldedpath]

It'd be hard to play "soul on the mandolin". You'd really need the right kind of rhythm section. Without that, I don't think you could truly create the soul sound. It's like playing a bluegrass tune on mandolin and guitar, but it's not really bluegrass until you get the other instruments in there.

I agree about the need for an ensemble. But depending on the variant of "soul" we're talking about, I think that can either a driving rhythm section with bass and drums, or just a smaller group with a really great singer. The singer is so important in this music. Pure instrumental versions of classic Soul tunes have limited appeal (IMO).

Last weekend I sat in with a duo act that does bluesy torch songs and ballads, with a great lady vocalist and a great acoustic guitar player. I was on mandolin. Some of what we played was close to the Soul zone like "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay," "Summertime," and "Fever." The guitar player and I were having fun trading riffs and laying down the rhythm grooves, but it was really the vocalist who pulled it off, and captured the crowd. A bass player and drummer would have been nice additions, but we didn't really need it for that particular gig. We needed that singer though.

Now, if we're talking the various Funky Soul flavors, then yeah... you gotta have a real rhythm section. And some horns.

[catmandu2]

Yes, a guy can get soulful with a mando. Yank, Ry, Levon, et al. for sure.

But the OP, i believe, mentioned Motown, etc. Yes, you could play Cloud Nine on a mando. Our BG band does Superstition. But it is what it is. ;) You pays you money..



You want "wall of sound" soul with a single instrument?


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[jaycat]

The singer is so important in this music. Pure instrumental versions of classic Soul tunes have limited appeal (IMO).


Someone had better let Messrs. Booker T. Jones & Steve Cropper know about this!

[foldedpath]

Someone had better let Messrs. Booker T. Jones & Steve Cropper know about this!

Well, when I said "pure instrumental versions of classic Soul tunes" I was referring to versions of songs originally made famous by great singers, not the few instrumentals that became hits like Green Onions... which I'm not 100% sure could be categorized as Soul music anyway. Maybe more R&B?

Which brings up the question... Is it really Soul music without a singer? People don't listen to Aretha or Otis Redding just to hear what the band is doing. To me, it's like trying to do traditional Gospel music without a lead singer and a choir.

P.S. I know this will probably get me in trouble with those who like to work up instrumentals on solo mandolin.
~:>

[jaycat]

. . . the few instrumentals that became hits like Green Onions... which I'm not 100% sure could be categorized as Soul music anyway. Maybe more R&B?


If it's on Stax . . . it's soul.

[Mike Bunting]

Something like this?

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