Dynamic or Condenser for live shows

[bwootan]

Hello, I am new to amplifying acoustic instruments for live shows. I don't particularly care for running my guitar or mandolin straight into the PA, so I have the following rig which I use at practice(very low volume)

Mando/Uke/Guitar > MXL 991 SD Condenser Mic > ART Tube PreAmp (for warmth and some gain) > EHX LPB-1 (clean signal boost) > DOD EQ pedal > DOD Digital Reverb pedal > Fender ProJunior 15Watt tube amp.

My question is when I start to turn up the volume for a live show (which I have not done yet) will a dynamic or the condenser microphone be a better choice? I am concerned with feedback, and not sure if one type of microphone will be more or less likely to feedback or not.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks!

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Really depends on the situation. On average, dynamics will tend to be a little more forgiving with respect to feedback, particularly of the ear-piercing kind. However, since you are not going into a PA (based on your chain) you have some flexibility with amp placement to reduce feedback. Stage volume, venue geometry, etc. will all affect your ability to use any particular mic. I haven't used the 991, so I can't speak to its particular properties, but with mics you usually have to work a little to get them right, particularly as volumes go up.

If you already own both types of mics, bring them both, start with the condenser, and swap out for the dynamic if it's unworkable. This has the added benefit of letting you try both mics to hear which sound you prefer.

Cheers
MRT

[MikeEdgerton]

If you are using stage monitors the condenser is probably going to be an issue. I love condenser mics personally but if you're looking for volume in a mixed environment you might want to use a dynamic mic.

[Chip Booth]

By the time you run the signal through an LPB1, 2 DODs and a tube amp I think the question is effectively mute.

[abuteague]

By the time you run the signal through an LPB1, 2 DODs and a tube amp I think the question is effectively mute.
I think the word you want is "moot," but "mute" is fun too.

[foldedpath]

What Chip said (mute or moot). You're shaving off so much of the acoustic qualities of your instrument with that signal chain, especially the electric guitar tube amp at the back end, that choice of mic doesn't matter. Might as well use a Shure SM57 dynamic, because that amp won't reproduce what a good condenser mic will capture.

As far as feedback goes, beware of turning up that 15 watt amp to stage performance levels, because if you start saturating the tubes it will increase risk of feedback with a microphone. Clipped sound waves feed back more easily.

If you like the sound of a microphone, is there some reason you don't want to run into the PA system instead of that amp? There are acoustic amps that would do a better job if you just want the amp as a local monitor.

On the general subject of dynamic vs. condenser for live use, I always prefer condenser mics and make a point of bringing my own (because most venues will just have a SM57 or similar). But that's assuming a good quality PA system or acoustic amp, proper speaker placement for feedback control, and so on.

[bwootan]

What Chip said (mute or moot). You're shaving off so much of the acoustic qualities of your instrument with that signal chain, especially the electric guitar tube amp at the back end, that choice of mic doesn't matter. Might as well use a Shure SM57 dynamic, because that amp won't reproduce what a good condenser mic will capture.

As far as feedback goes, beware of turning up that 15 watt amp to stage performance levels, because if you start saturating the tubes it will increase risk of feedback with a microphone. Clipped sound waves feed back more easily.

If you like the sound of a microphone, is there some reason you don't want to run into the PA system instead of that amp? There are acoustic amps that would do a better job if you just want the amp as a local monitor.

On the general subject of dynamic vs. condenser for live use, I always prefer condenser mics and make a point of bringing my own (because most venues will just have a SM57 or similar). But that's assuming a good quality PA system or acoustic amp, proper speaker placement for feedback control, and so on.

I don't have a PA currently, so i use the amp to get a loud enough volume when practicing because the singer I work with is really loud, and some of my more quiet pieces just don't come through enough to be heard. I have plugged into a PA before straight from the built in pickup of my acoustic, and the tone/sound that came out of the PA was just awful.

The sound I get coming from the amp is far better than the sound I was getting going straight into the PA, so I suppose that is the reason I am using the amp. We are getting close to performing at some of the local coffee shops, etc, so I was looking to see what advice could be thrown my way as I prepare for the shows.

I appreciate everyone's kind replies.

Thanks again,
bwootan

[mandroid]

Added sensitivity of a condenser mic, works against you when it hears it's own Monitors.

[Charlieshafer]

Getting back to what a few others have said, that's a scary list of equipment and cordage you're sending a signal through. Every connection degrades the signal a little, and every pedal, or other piece of equipment also loses a little of the signal. Sounding like it could be hum city. This screams out for an Ovation or Godin or other mandolin with an integral pickup plugged into an amp directly. If you want to use the microphones, and I really prefer those to the pickups, I'd figure out how to lose all the pedals, eq's and everything else. If you're using a tube pre-amp, and a tube amp, there's no more warmth you can put in there without going to a full-electric rig. Unless the reverb is exaggerated for an effect on one song, lose it.

If you have no monitors, the condenser should work fine, as the amp will hopefully be in front of you facing the audience. You may need to mute the back of the open speaker cabinet with a pillow or something to reduce the sound bleeding back into the microphone, muddying up the microphone with delayed signals. If it's behind you, as everyone else said, go with the dynamic. From my perspective, I'd go with the dynamic, as all those tubes are coloring the sound with exaggerated warmth, anyway.

[mandobassman]

I'm a little confused here. You said the sound coming from the amp combo was far better than the sound coming from the PA. However you stated you only ran it through the PA with the built in pick up. That's not comparing apples to apples. I have the MXL 991 and it is one of the best mics I have ever used for mandolin. It produces tons of volume compared to a MS57 or many other dynamic mics. I used a AKG C-1000 condenser for a long time and the 991 surpassed that in volume and tone. I don't use either anymore as the band I'm with now uses the MXL 990 for everything, vocals and instruments. But I would give the 991 a try without all of the effects first and see what it sounds like. I agree with "foldedpath" that, even though it's tube, you're really pushing it using a 15 watt amp. Condensers are so good at picking up subtleties that the amp will never be able to reproduce all of that, especially with all of the other parts of the chain you have. It's hard to imagine it sounds like a mandolin by the time it gets to the amp.

[farmerjones]

Mike's E's got the right idea. You didn't mention monitors, but if you have anything but headphones or in-ear, the MXL990 is going to feedback. Nothing wrong with a real Sure SM57s for miking instruments. SM58's for vocals. These two mikes only have about a million years of stage time. :)

[bwootan]

I'm a little confused here. You said the sound coming from the amp combo was far better than the sound coming from the PA. However you stated you only ran it through the PA with the built in pick up. That's not comparing apples to apples. I have the MXL 991 and it is one of the best mics I have ever used for mandolin. It produces tons of volume compared to a MS57 or many other dynamic mics. I used a AKG C-1000 condenser for a long time and the 991 surpassed that in volume and tone. I don't use either anymore as the band I'm with now uses the MXL 990 for everything, vocals and instruments. But I would give the 991 a try without all of the effects first and see what it sounds like. I agree with "foldedpath" that, even though it's tube, you're really pushing it using a 15 watt amp. Condensers are so good at picking up subtleties that the amp will never be able to reproduce all of that, especially with all of the other parts of the chain you have. It's hard to imagine it sounds like a mandolin by the time it gets to the amp.

From my past experience of having access to a PA with my acoustic guitar, when I tried running straight into the PA using my built in guitar pickup, I was not happy with the sound that came through the PA (to me, it lost all of its acoustic qualities). I am happy with the sound using just the guitar amp as a way to amplify my sound in a practice/rehearsal setting. I am not really trying to get a pure completely natural acoustic sound. The tube preamp adds some nice warmth (to my ears anyway), the LPB boost pedal gives it a very slightly overdriven edge to the sound that I like, the EQ gets rid of some of the low end muddiness that I don't like, and the reverb pedal is a very light reverb that sounds good to me. I also use a looper pedal to play some parts that I can then do a solo over. I suppose my sound won't be to everyone's liking though.

I did a little comparison the other day with the SM57 and the mxl 991, and I came to the same conclusion that the mxl 991 gave me a bit brighter sound, and generally gave me more of what I wanted to hear. So I thought I would come here and see what others thought. I would hate to get onstage and have a feedback nightmare. But the volumes should be pretty low in any of the places I would be playing.

I will try the dynamic approach a bit more though, that seems like it will be a bit more friendly when it comes to the feedback issue.

Thanks!
bwootan

[foldedpath]

Added sensitivity of a condenser mic, works against you when it hears it's own Monitors.

With respect, I think this is an Internet myth. A condenser mic typically has a higher output voltage than a dynamic mic, because it has a head amp running off phantom power. With the dynamic mic, you're working with a smaller voltage from a passive capsule. The mixer sees a hotter signal from the condenser mic, which means you're supposed to turn down the gain on the mixer's input trim for that channel, compared to what you're used to with a dynamic mic.

That's all there is to it. After the input trim is adjusted properly for each channel, the mixer will see the same input voltage from a condenser mic that it would normally see from a dynamic mic. Feedback is purely a result of gain-staging, and whether you manage to exceed that unity gain threshold between the microphone and any nearby speakers.

People tend to think condensers "feed back more" because they're getting a hotter signal, but it's not an intrinsic property of the mic. It's failing to understand gain-staging at the mixer.

That said, there is one possible situation like playing in a highly reflective school gym or factory warehouse, where the high frequency response of a good condenser might initiate feedback a decibel or two earlier than a dynamic mic. But this is a very minor difference, and I would hope most of us could avoid that type of venue. Aside from that one situation, it's a myth that condensers have more "reach" or "sensitivity" than a dynamic mic with the same polar pattern, as long as their input voltage at the mixer is set up the same way as the dynamic mic.

(/end curmudgeon mode) :)

[acousticphd]

I've used the MXL 991 and 990, as well as 3-4 other condensers to mic my guitar/mandolin when playing for contradances - in this setting, the music is very audible, but all acoustic and not especially loud. However, there are multiple sources of additive noise, from the dance caller/PA, conversation between the musicians, stage monitors while playing, and crowd noise, which is very significant. My experience is that the 990 or 991 works well at a gig where people are listening and it is relatively quite, and these mics reproduce guitar/mando sound very nicely. In a noisy setting though, they pick up and amplify other noise both near and far. We have the best results with the gain low and mic'd as close as possible to the instrument (and everything is run to the PA). However, I have better results with condensers with -10db and Low-freq. cutoffswitches. The best mic I've tried so far was the AT450.

[Charlieshafer]

Folded is absolutely right about the feedback issue with condenser vs. dynamic; there should be no increased feedback if trimmed correctly. That said, I find inexperienced users tend to mess up less with a dynamic, especially with the Shures, as they have a VERY predictable pick-up pattern. Even a cardioid or super-cardioid condenser seems to have a little wider pattern making it a little more conducive to feedback if you're not used to them. We'll have as many as 12 mikes on a relatively small stage area for different vocals and instruments, and a mix of dynamics and condensers, with 4-5 monitors, and no feedback issues. The only time we seem to get feedback is when someone plugs in a guitar or mandolin with a pickup, and their pre-amp's gain is basically full-bore high. We've learned through the years to make sure anyone plugging in their own pre-amp has the gain all the way down.