The Loar 600 versus 700

[Jensen]

Hello,
I am trying to decide which mandolin to buy. I have narrowed it down to one of two instruments by The Loar, the 600 or the 700. Obviously, the 700 has more inlays and it is described as if the wood is of a slightly higher quality than on the 600. However, I would be pleased to hear from anyone who has tried them both. My main concern is, which instrument sounds the best?

[Capt. E]

My understanding is the top of the 600 is braced, the 700 is not. This makes for a different sound. Most people seem to prefer the 700.

Check out this thread: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?75454-The-Loar-construction&highlight=loar+braces

[Folkmusician.com]

Hi Jenson,

When the LM-700 first came out there was a noticeable difference in tone between it and the LM-600, but it wasn't a HUGE difference. Over time, the gap has widened and now these have two unique voices. About 90% of my customers that have tried them back to back prefer the openness of the 700. The other 10% feel it is a little muddy, and they prefer the focused tone of the 600. The good news is that both of these stand out as having great tone. There is no wrong choice. :)

[dcoventry]

What Robert said is true.

I had a 700 for a bit, and bought it based on it's openness and good bass response. HOWEVER, I returned it because of those same qualities. While chording was full and throaty, single note playing sufferend a bit in clarity. The neck on the 700 was about the best I've seen except for my G5.

I had a chance to A/B the 600 and 700, and took the 700 initially. The 600 was a bit tight and closed as a brand new mando. But that is right and proper. I'd actually get the 600 if I had it to do over. Honest. I think the potential is ther for greatness by and large. The 700 is no slouch, but is not classic BG. The 600 is a more classic approach.

I'd like to add that the whole reason I went with the 700 at first was that it was no classic, but more modern. I have grown into liking that real classic tone bar braced sound of the 600.

God, I CANNOT believe I said that out loud. It's true, though.

[Keith Witty]

The LM 700 I have just plows. A truly fantastic mandolin. Most people that hear it ask me how much I paid for it, thinking it is Boutique or something. When I say 1000, they are floored. I had a guy that swore up and down that it was a Gibson F-5 when he was sitting behind the jam, when he came up and asked how old my Gibson was, he stopped and couldn't believe that it wasn't one. It's a mandolin that really turns heads.

[Folkmusician.com]

God, I CANNOT believe I said that out loud. It's true, though.

See Dave, you are a traditionalist at heart. Just admit it! :)

[dcoventry]

Ah Robert. You had me at, "Hello, can I help you with something?".

I think The Loar folks are just plain ole doing a good job on most everything. Really, they are delivering the goods for the price.

I have evolved my own sense of taste for sound quality in mandos, and my shift and change in instruments reflects this. I still have physically non-standard instrument in my G5, but it is as traditional in buliding composition as you could find. My Phoenix is similar in that it is a classic version of the style it is trying to acheive. I have to say, the classic approaches to building that include wood choices, carving specs, and bridge design are really quite a good combo at this point. I AM looking for the next leap forward, and I'll let you know when I find it.

I have always fought hard to be off center in approach but have always respected the necessity of good tone. I did that for me. What are YOU going to do for YOU?

Dave

[John Gass]

I love the diversity I can pull out of my 700. I can easily chop and play a lead line or just as easily play a jazz tune as well. What kind of music are you planning on playing?

[Jensen]

Hey y'all - Thanks for the tips! I play fiddle in a country band http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Badlands/163711620344935. I've been curious about the mandolin and it would come in handy for chords, so I'm gonna go ahead and get me one. From your responses, I believe I'll have to go with the 700, but I haven't made up my mind completely yet. I liked Mr. Robert saying that there was no bad choice!

[Jensen]

Just another thought: If the 600 produces a true vintage sound, but the 700 has more volume, perhaps a 600 with a pickup will be both vintage and powerful (that is if the pickup is of good quality).

[Keith Witty]

I think my 700 sounds 95% like Chris Thile's Gibson that he plays on the Sleep with One Eye Open album. I can pull that exact tone with D'Addario EXPs and a Wegen 250 pick.

[Mike Bunting]

I think my 700 sounds 95% like Chris Thile's Gibson that he plays on the Sleep with One Eye Open album. I can pull that exact tone with D'Addario EXPs and a Wegen 250 pick.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Keith Witty]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Hate all you want, I'm not the one who suggested it. But once it was pointed out it was hard to say it was false.

[Mike Bunting]

Where's the hate?

[Keith Witty]

Sorry, it just seemed like a response that was insinuating that I was stretching the truth or something. Sorry for the mix up. This is why I don't txt. ;)

[jeffw500]

Just played a 700 at Elderly 2 days ago it was nice $800 and a case! Never played the 600 have played A model 400 (nice volume/chop) own a new 500 and like it..could be easier to fret seems tight but then again $599 with the sound quality it has that is not major.

[majorbanjo]

I've got a LM 400 love the tone and playability....sounds perfect played by myself....when playing with some folks the other day......I noticed that I think I'd prefer if it weren't so deep and woody......I think it would cut a tad better....

[Big Joe]

There is a subtle difference tonally from the LM600 to the LM700, but it is not earth shattering. The LM600 will, on average, be a bit more focused in the mid range. This will help cut through a bluegrass environment where you are competing with a banjo and guitar and fiddle. The tonal focus in the mids will cut through a bit better in theory, but many of the LM700's will do just as well. The LM700 will be a bit more balanced across the tonal spectrum than the LM600.

In reality, there is not a lot of difference. The main difference seems to be in the appearance (gold vs chrome, fern vs flowerpot) and the case. The other difference is the price. Neither is expensive in relation to other mandolins and certainly the best value for the money on the market today. I prefer the LM700 just a bit more. While either will handle about any situation you may encounter, what you want to do with it may be a bit more of a deciding factor.

If you wish to play bluegrass primarily, then the LM600 may be your best selection. However, if you play a wider variety of music or play at home by yourself, then the LM700 may be a better selection. I play such a diversity of musical styles that I would probably want the LM700. That being said, I 've seen some LM600's that were as good as any LM700 in overall tone and volume. These instruments are essentially the same so a similar outcome should be expected.

Either one will likely do whatever one wants. They are both great and very close to one another. Jesse McReynold's loves his and it is the LM700. Of course, Jesse plays just about any style music you can imagine, and while he is considered bluegrass because he plays mandolin, his musical career has covered many styles and bluegrass only one of them. It is a logical choice for him. He equates it to his favorite Stiver. Not bad company! Ronnie Reno has the LM700 and loves it. He uses it in the shows he does. He is classical bluegrass and then some. He does a lot of his father's music. The LM700 was a great choice for him. Another well regarded bluegrass mandolin player of some reknown will have his LM700 in the very near future. It is on the way to our shop to get it ready for him.

These mandolins are quite amazing when you consider some of the best use them. Let me point out that they don't use them because of any financial gain for them. They like the mandolin and it will perform as they expect tonally, volume, and playability. If it did not, they would not want it at any price. These guys can have anything they want, and the Loar is what they want. Some have been offered very high end mandolins and have turned them down because they did not do what they wanted. They chose the Loar. That should reflect very high on the quality and tone of the Loar models.

Your question is which one to chose. That is a very personal choice, but either one will be acceptable for anything you wish to do. Once it arrives you will want a pro setup, and I recommend the Cumberland Acoustic bridge fit and adjusted for that particular instrument, and you will have a mandolin that will blow your socks off for a fraction of a comparable instrument.

John Gass posted above. He had his LM700 in the shop last week. I will put THAT mandolin up against any mandolin you can think of. It is INCREDIBLE!!! Of course, it is not stock. It has been refinished, varnished, distressed, new CA bridge, James tailpiece, Custom Scrimshaw truss rod cover, and setup perfectly. Wow!!! What a mandolin. If you get a chance to see or play it, you will be amazed as well.

[Keith Witty]

I think I should point out along with Joe, that these mandolins are some of the best out there today. I'm currently trying to find an upgrade and I just can't. Each high dollar mandolin I play is missing something that my 700 gives me. The only one I have played that was better playing than my 700 was a Weber Fern, but it couldn't chop. It was the strangest thing, it just had no chop...

But anywho, I'm almost to the point of just getting a 600 and doing to it what John Gass did to his 700. I want a tiny bit of difference in tone, and I just love the Flower Pot. I could get it and save money in the long run if I got it distressed and varnished. That should tell you how good these mandolins are. I can't find an upgrade in Webers, Gibsons, Silverangels, Kentuckys, Breedloves, one Northfield (it was the closest, by far), One Rigel, and one lower model LaPlant, but I don't really want to count that, as Lloyd made it for that guy special, with less quality so it wouldn't be so costly. It was still a great mandolin though.

If I was to get a 600, and then do to it what John Gass did to his, I would be spending about the same as I would on a Northfield F-5. And I think it might be worth it.

[almeriastrings]

I think I should point out along with Joe, that these mandolins are some of the best out there today. I'm currently trying to find an upgrade and I just can't. Each high dollar mandolin I play is missing something that my 700 gives me. The only one I have played that was better playing than my 700 was a Weber Fern, but it couldn't chop. It was the strangest thing, it just had no chop...

But anywho, I'm almost to the point of just getting a 600 and doing to it what John Gass did to his 700. I want a tiny bit of difference in tone, and I just love the Flower Pot. I could get it and save money in the long run if I got it distressed and varnished. That should tell you how good these mandolins are. I can't find an upgrade in Webers, Gibsons, Silverangels, Kentuckys, Breedloves, one Northfield (it was the closest, by far), One Rigel, and one lower model LaPlant.

Don't get me wrong here... I do think those "The Loar's" are really, really fantastic value. There is no doubt they are a heck of a lot of mandolin for the price, as are some of the "Kentucky" models. However.... I have played a few, 400's, 600's and 700's and while I was very happy with their value, in sheer quality terms (both finish wise and sound wise), putting them on a level with Weber Fern's, Gibsons (including MM's?), Silverangel's, and such-like is (in my opinion) taking enthusiasm a bit too far. As for the "flowerpot" it is basically just stuck on there... underneath the finish. Obviously, if you are happy with it that is fine. You have just saved yourself a fortune in MAS maintenance costs! However, I would not be happy with any of the ones I have encountered as a main instrument. Second instrument, or travel/stage instrument, possibly... yes. They just did not do it for me. Maybe you have a spectacularly superb, mind-blowing example (it can happen), who knows? I would, though, be cautious about making a general suggestion that the likes of Weber, Gibson, Silverangel, Breedlove, LaPlant and even Northfield quit their day jobs just yet.

[Big Joe]

Almeriastrings... I can assure you the mandolin John Gass has will stand up to anything, but it is not stock. However, the stock instruments have pleased some of the most demanding players on the planet with the quality, tone, and playability (once they have been set up for them). These players have very nice mandolins... real Loars and others considered very high end. They CHOSE to play "The LOAR" mandolin because they are capable of delivering what they demand. They are certainly not beginners or intermediate level players, and they have the choice of any instrument on the planet to play. Many high end builders have offered some of them a free mandolin, but they chose "The Loar". The one thing about pros... they don't play what they don't like. The fact these guys are playing "The Loar" is evidence of the quality of tone and playability of these instruments. They don't have to take a back seat to any other mandolin on the planet.

The quality of woods and materials used is very high. I do replace the bridges on most and I set them up with a pro setup, but otherwise, the only thing they need is playing. I have no reason to believe they are not on par with many higher end mandolins by any means. If they were made in the USA, they would be in the same price range as the others and then everyone would consider them an A list product rather than an import. Then again, Gilchrist is an import as well.

Everyone will have their own opinion on any instrument, but I would defend Keith and his preference. Remember too, that we each have a different set of ears, level of expectations, and experience. Some would not like "The Loar" just because they are made in China. That is their right. Some would not like it for other reasons. Maybe it did not cost enough. Maybe ???? Many reasons. On the other hand, some don't like Lloyd Loar mandolins either for any number of reasons. Some don't like any brand you name for any number of reasons. That does not mean any of them are not a viable product with a place in someone's stable. A particular model may not work in MY stable, but you may think it exceptional. As I've said for years, different strokes for different folks :) . Let's all enjoy our own preference.

[almeriastrings]

This is getting really silly.

[almeriastrings]

I would add that where we are used to seeing "No Financial Interest" added to posts making product recommendations, I would very much like to see full and complete disclosure where there IS financial interest. That extends to people citing or enrolling people in endorsement deals. I would like to know the complete details of those deals. Just a free instrument? Or more? What exactly?


Without that these endorsements are absolutely worthless. Sorry - I do not buy the line that "these guys/gals can play anything they want... they chose this". I also know some of these people, and I know SOME of the deals that have been made at various times. Free this. Free that. We promote you... you promote us. There is nothing wrong with this so long as it is out in the open. Pickers, are after all, also in business and have to make a living. However, the "hidden" nature of most of these deals concerns me quite a lot. In some fields of work, it would be considered as nothing short of corruption.

This needs to be said, and it is about time there was much more transparency when it comes to vendor's recommendations and these professional endorsement "arrangements".

[Keith Witty]

Don't get me wrong here... I do think those "The Loar's" are really, really fantastic value. There is no doubt they are a heck of a lot of mandolin for the price, as are some of the "Kentucky" models. However.... I have played a few, 400's, 600's and 700's and while I was very happy with their value, in sheer quality terms (both finish wise and sound wise), putting them on a level with Weber Fern's, Gibsons (including MM's?), Silverangel's, and such-like is (in my opinion) taking enthusiasm a bit too far. As for the "flowerpot" it is basically just stuck on there... underneath the finish. Obviously, if you are happy with it that is fine. You have just saved yourself a fortune in MAS maintenance costs! However, I would not be happy with any of the ones I have encountered as a main instrument. Second instrument, or travel/stage instrument, possibly... yes. They just did not do it for me. Maybe you have a spectacularly superb, mind-blowing example (it can happen), who knows? I would, though, be cautious about making a general suggestion that the likes of Weber, Gibson, Silverangel, Breedlove, LaPlant and even Northfield quit their day jobs just yet.

Mine is a fantastic mandolin. That is all I am saying. If I could find a better one... I haven't given up the search for my second mando yet, but it is ongoing. I can't find one. I can't wait to try a Collings though.

[bluegrassdan]

What if i was to go out and get a 520 or the new 500? Is it going to compete with the 600 & 700 without the bling? Dropped $1000 on an Eastman 515 a few years ago and wasnt impressed even with set up and Cumberland bridge. Scared to try that again. Am now playing a Saga A-kit and it sounds better than the Eastman.

[Keith Witty]

I recommend the 520, it has a great sound with none of the frills. The 500 plays very well and sounds good, but won't sound as good, imho.

[Big Joe]

Almeirastrings... I addressed this in other threads but in case you did not read them, here goes. The artists affiliated with "The Loar" do NOT get paid to play them, nor are they promoted. They get an artists deal on the instrument and that is it. They don't get all kinds of extras either. I know these artists personally and know what they have and what they have been offered. There is not enough money in mandolin sales to give the kinds of payment you imply. Most manufacturers will provide the instrument at a discount price to the artist depending upon whether they are an A level or B level artist. In some cases (not many) an artist may be given an instrument but that is all they get. No money, no expensive gifts, and no great program. The only advertisement the artist gets is if they are used in an ad for the product. Most are not.

I have substantial experience with product placement with artists. This is the case. If they don't like the product, no matter whether it was free or they paid for it they will not play it. Often it gets on e-bay, craigslist, or the cafe ads in a short time. Artists are not looking for a hand out. They only want an instrument that will work for them the way they expect it to. If that can be done they will play it and be thankful to the provider. If it cannot, or if they don't like a product for any reason, it will not get played. That does no one any good. It certainly does not do the maker any good.

When I was at Gibson we had an artist that had a signature model. He is a highly regarded player and well known. Unfortunately, he would not play the signature instrument he helped design. He played another builders instrument (not mandolin). His endorsement was worse than useless and it certainly did not help the company, and it did not help him either. That will sometimes happen. It is unfortunate, but it does happen.

All that being said, it has nothing to do with whether the Loar is a good instrument or not. They are, and the artists who play them do so because they want to and not because of any financial gain for them. There is no financial gain for them. How is that for disclosure? We also build instruments. We have artists who endorse our products. We don't give them to the artists. The artist has to buy them just like everyone else. They endorse the product because they believe in it. I would rather have one artist like that than 1000 that were just looking for a free product. We are honored to have great players want to play what we build. The same is true with The Loar and Recording King. The artists can chose to play about anything they want. They chose to play The Loar. That is the fact. Thank you.

[almeriastrings]

I see my post requesting full disclosure of financial interest and transparency in sponsorship deals has been censored.

I was not aware asking such questions broke any forum rules. My post was not abusive, nor threatening, nor did it contain any objectionable language or other prohibited content. It simply raised the question of non-disclosure of financial interest by people making recommendations.

Neither was I aware that users posts on this forum were subject to outright censorship, without warning or any form of notification.

I thought the board was based in the US, not China or North Korea.

Perhaps the owner/moderators could elucidate the policy on this? Is discussing financial/vested interests in sponsorship and recommendations a banned topic here?

[Keith Witty]

I would add that where we are used to seeing "No Financial Interest" added to posts making product recommendations, I would very much like to see full and complete disclosure where there IS financial interest. That extends to people citing or enrolling people in endorsement deals. I would like to know the complete details of those deals. Just a free instrument? Or more? What exactly?


Without that these endorsements are absolutely worthless. Sorry - I do not buy the line that "these guys/gals can play anything they want... they chose this". I also know some of these people, and I know SOME of the deals that have been made at various times. Free this. Free that. We promote you... you promote us. There is nothing wrong with this so long as it is out in the open. Pickers, are after all, also in business and have to make a living. However, the "hidden" nature of most of these deals concerns me quite a lot. In some fields of work, it would be considered as nothing short of corruption.

This needs to be said, and it is about time there was much more transparency when it comes to vendor's recommendations and these professional endorsement "arrangements".

Umm, do you mean this one?

[Folkmusician.com]

What if i was to go out and get a 520 or the new 500? Is it going to compete with the 600 & 700 without the bling?

In most situations, yes. Played back to back you do hear some differences between the 520, 500 and 600. The basic voice is about the same, but you depth of the tone improves as you go up through the models. If you are critical of the tone, and or recording, I would go for the highest model that is within your budget. If you want to keep the price down., the 520 and 500 are still among the best sounding Pac rim mandolins available. On to the 700.. to my ears there is a large difference in the tone. When the 700 first came they were much like a 600 with more low end and resonance. The 700 has slowly moved in a different tonal direction than the 600. The gap has widened and to my ear these two mandolins no longer share the same voice. The 700 almost takes on some of that tubby Oval hole tone. It is loud and full. Some of this comes at the expense of clarity. The 700 can be a little too much at times, but it would still be my first choice among the line. Somewhere around 90% of players that try these side by side, prefer the 700.

These mandolins are constantly changing. The latest 600 mandolins even have a new Flowerpot. Which reminds me, we need to update the images. :)

[almeriastrings]

Umm, do you mean this one?

Which one? I am not suggesting for one second you are a vendor or have any other financial interest. You are obviously a buyer who is very happy with your mandolin. Fair enough. As I said originally, they are a heck of a good instrument. There are only two areas I take any issue with:

1) That it is impossible to find anything better;
2) That all endorsers play them on merit alone. They don't. Same goes for other brands, too, of course...

[Keith Witty]

Which one? I am not suggesting for one second you are a vendor or have any other financial interest. You are obviously a buyer who is very happy with your mandolin. Fair enough. As I said originally, they are a heck of a good instrument. There are only two areas I take any issue with:

1) That it is impossible to find anything better;
2) That all endorsers play them on merit alone. They don't. Same goes for other brands, too, of course...

I meant the quote from you that I quoted. Can you not see it? That would be indeed strange.

But there is no reason to take issue with 1 because you are quoting me out of context completely. I said I am having trouble finding an upgrade. Nowhere, in any of my posts, did I say it was impossible to upgrade. And I have only be talking about the mandos I have played. I didn't say all Gibsons or all Webers or All Silverangels. I said the ones I had played. I don't buy something I can't play first in most cases.

I liked my 700 better than the three Silverangel's I have played, the Gibson A-9, Fern, F9, and 1919 A-style that I got to play (The A-9 was a beast though), a Weber Fern (Which would have been better if it could chop at all), Bitterroot A and F, Gallatin A and F, and Yellowstone F. And I think the Northfields only issue was the way the guy had it set up.

But does that make you feel better? Maybe not all 700's are fantastic like mine has led me to believe, but this one is pretty freaking spectacular, and from what Joe says, most are pretty incredible.

I'm tired of this argument. It's always upsets someone when someone who has a "lesser" instrument starts comparing it to the big boys.

[Mike Bunting]

I meant the quote from you that I quoted. Can you not see it? That would be indeed strange.

But there is no reason to take issue with 1 because you are quoting me out of context completely. I said I am having trouble finding an upgrade. Nowhere, in any of my posts, did I say it was impossible to upgrade. And I have only be talking about the mandos I have played. I didn't say all Gibsons or all Webers or All Silverangels. I said the ones I had played. I don't buy something I can't play first in most cases.

I liked my 700 better than the three Silverangel's I have played, the Gibson A-9, Fern, F9, and 1919 A-style that I got to play (The A-9 was a beast though), a Weber Fern (Which would have been better if it could chop at all), Bitterroot A and F, Gallatin A and F, and Yellowstone F. And I think the Northfields only issue was the way the guy had it set up.

But does that make you feel better? Maybe not all 700's are fantastic like mine has led me to believe, but this one is pretty freaking spectacular, and from what Joe says, most are pretty incredible.

I'm tired of this argument. It's always upsets someone when someone who has a "lesser" instrument starts comparing it to the big boys.
You seem to like your mandolin a lot. Why are you looking for an upgrade already.
BTW, It's always annoying when someone gets their first decent instrument and won't stop going on about it

[Keith Witty]

You seem to like your mandolin a lot. Why are you looking for an upgrade already.
BTW, It's always annoying when someone gets their first decent instrument and won't stop going on about it

I'm looking for a second mando, not ever looking to trade it. This isn't my first decent instrument. I had a Les Paul that I traded for an ESP goldtop, and my brother and I essentially share two Alvarez Yairi Acoustics.

[DerTiefster]

Someone with musical experience (guitar), and an ear for tone that he trusts, could be reasonably expected to follow up with a very happy experience with a "mid-grade" or possibly "entry-level" mandolin (his "The Loar" 700) by looking about for what an "advanced-level" mandolin might sound like. I've been trying to train my ear that way at mandolin tastings, for instance. What Keith says (in my interpretation) is that he's tried a few upper-grade mandolins by name and not found them to be an "upgrade" from his happy "The Loar" 700. This is a reasonable statement for him to make. Others, some of whom might consider many of the "The Loar" products to be mid-level, may be willing to admit the possibility of a professional-caliber mandolin coming out of that Chinese production line. Some may be reluctant to consider that as a possibility. Keith says that his experience is "this is a possibility," and I have to take him at his word.

Tone is such a subjective thing, thouth. People with the last name "Witty" sometimes try to pull the wool over the eyes of others, lying shamelessly to them just to start a ruckus. You've seen one example in this thread. They have other bad habits, too, like holding their picks by the fat end. Absolutely shameless. Hey. Wait. Maybe that -is- a better way to hold a pick. But don't believe them without verification. Darn. Why didn't someone tell me. Oh. Wait. Someone did. Darn.

[Keith Witty]

Someone with musical experience (guitar), and an ear for tone that he trusts, could be reasonably expected to follow up with a very happy experience with a "mid-grade" or possibly "entry-level" mandolin (his "The Loar" 700) by looking about for what an "advanced-level" mandolin might sound like. I've been trying to train my ear that way at mandolin tastings, for instance. What Keith says (in my interpretation) is that he's tried a few upper-grade mandolins by name and not found them to be an "upgrade" from his happy "The Loar" 700. This is a reasonable statement for him to make. Others, some of whom might consider many of the "The Loar" products to be mid-level, may be willing to admit the possibility of a professional-caliber mandolin coming out of that Chinese production line. Some may be reluctant to consider that as a possibility. Keith says that his experience is "this is a possibility," and I have to take him at his word.

Tone is such a subjective thing, thouth. People with the last name "Witty" sometimes try to pull the wool over the eyes of others, lying shamelessly to them just to start a ruckus. You've seen one example in this thread. They have other bad habits, too, like holding their picks by the fat end. Absolutely shameless. Hey. Wait. Maybe that -is- a better way to hold a pick. But don't believe them without verification. Darn. Why didn't someone tell me. Oh. Wait. Someone did. Darn.

This Witty didn't lie. But being from a whole family of them, I can say that many do. Being a Witty is difficult, especially if people expect you to be just that: Witty.

Great post.

[almeriastrings]

I think I made it 100% clear (several times) that I do think "The Loar" range are very nice sounding mandolins and great value. Also, I made it clear that I am not unfamiliar with them entirely. I've played a few, various models, including the 600 and 700. Neither do I have any bias against Chinese instruments as such (I have a Kentucky KM-1000 that I use for alternate tunings). That is a very decent mandolin too. As good as the best of the other mandolins I own, or have played? No, but still very nice in its own right. I also have a KM-505 A model..... which is not bad, either. However.... all I can say is going by the "Loar" 600's and 700's I have played, I would not find it hard at all to find a considerably better instrument if presented with, say, a few Gibson F models, Weber Fern's, Silverangel's, etc. to chose from, They are - frankly (in my opinion) in a whole different league entirely. You are free to disagree. Personal taste also comes into this... I know a couple of people who own guitars I think sound really quite bad (one is a cheap Ovation import) who love 'em, and swear they are wonderful instruments. OK. I'm glad they are happy with them.

One thing about "The Loar" (and many other similar import brands) that I do not particularly like is the misleading nature of some of their descriptions and marketing-speak. They refer, for example, to "abalone/mother of pearl headstock inlay". Definition of inlay:

Inlay is a decorative technique of inserting pieces of contrasting, often coloured materials into depressions in a base object to form patterns or pictures that normally are flush with the matrix

A stick on overlay, is no way an "inlay". It should not be mis-sold as such. Further, they are far less durable and more vulnerable to damage, in the event of trauma damage to the headstock or need for any refinish work.

Other areas of being "less than 100% honest" in the marketing hype include the much proclaimed "nitrocellulose" finish. As I understand it, it is a thin nitro coat on a thicker poly base coat. Not quite the same thing.

I'd like to know a bit more about the "hand-carved" aspect as well. If you go to a small shop luthier, they take a split/sawn wedge of spruce, glue it up, then carve it entirely by hand with gouges, thumb planes, etc. The plate thickness can be varied as much as required in response to the perceived properties of that individual piece. In a typical factory setting, the first part of the process is the same, but the 'roughing out' will be done by CNC. This saves a huge amount of time... the exact amount of "hand carving" can vary from quite a bit to barely nothing. I suppose as long as it was anything at all you could claim it was "hand carved"? I have no idea about that, I would be interested to know the extent of it. I would not normally be so suspicious of this, but when I see specifications such as "inlay" and "nitro" being stretched to the max, I begin to wonder. You can go visit the C. F. Martin factory in person and see for yourself how things are done, and if you ask them, they will tell (in detail) about which parts are made by which means. There are also videos of it available. Same with Taylor. I'd like to see similar openness on manufacturing techniques from the Chinese factories.

[Bill Snyder]

FWIW it is not unheard of for small shop (one man small) to have CNC now for the roughing out of the plates. Of course I don't think that puts them and a factory instrument on the same level.
As for what The Loar does Paul Hostetter might be able to address that question.

[Keith Witty]

So you are arguing that my mandolin can't possibly be this great because it just shouldn't be? Not just mine, but all The Loars.

[dcoventry]

Cool.

Now we get down to the nitty gritty.....witty.

Yeah, I had to say that. I'm that guy.

[Keith Witty]

Cool.

Now we get down to the nitty gritty.....witty.

Yeah, I had to say that. I'm that guy.


I know I'm a known person at places when they call me Witty instead of Keith. No one calls me Keith except mi padres!

[almeriastrings]

So you are arguing that my mandolin can't possibly be this great because it just shouldn't be? Not just mine, but all The Loars.

Uh? I said no such thing. I simply reported that of the examples I have seen, things like a Weber or Gibson Fern (etc) were in a different league (in my opinion). I also pointed out the corner cutting that has gone on to get the instrument to that price point.

[DerTiefster]

It seems like we've reached a near approximation to all saying the same thing. The "The Loar 700" that Keith has satisfies his every current need, its price is achieved by cutting corners vs. purely hand-working the wood and decorations, the final stages of hand-tuning of Keith's mandolin were such as to match his desires for sound quality, and he was sufficiently fortunate as to actually find this particular mandolin and purchase it. Would that it worked out so well for all of us. Puts me in mind of my ... well, she wouldn't want me comparing her to a mere mandolin, so I won't.

[John Kinn]

FWIW, and these are guitars, not mandolins, but after two days of playing, my newly aquired Chinese made hog dred Recording King RD-316 beats the #### out of the equally new Gibson Hummingbird I have in house right now. So who cares if the guys who put them together speak Mandarin?
(I'm talking about instument sound quality here, not the Pac Rim instument's impact on American maker's economy, which is another subject to be dealt with elsewhere)..

[Keith Witty]

FWIW, and these are guitars, not mandolins, but after two days of playing,my newly aquired Chinese made hog dred Recording King RD-316 beats the #### out of the equally new Gibson Hummingbird I have in house right now. So who cares if the guys who put them together speak Mandarin?

My hometown dealer deals Recording Kings, those things rock.

[dang]

Keith- I was going to ask where Collings was on your list, and you mentioned it in your last sentence. Be warned, I have had a custom weber for 7 years and played a Collings MT and bought it on the spot. They are my new standard of tone.
just my opinion...

[Keith Witty]

Keith- I was going to ask where Collings was on your list, and you mentioned it in your last sentence. Be warned, I have had a custom weber for 7 years and played a Collings MT and bought it on the spot. They are my new standard of tone.
just my opinion...

I should get to try one in March, thus why I am withholding all purchases of anything not essential. I want to try everything before I buy my second (and final in all odds :( ) mandolin.

[dcoventry]

"I want to try everything before I buy my second (and final in all odds ) mandolin. "


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH..........AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA .........AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHH.........

oh that's a good one....seriously, you outta be on the stage.

Remember: It's not a matter of WILL power, it's all about WON'T power.

[Folkmusician.com]

Remember: It's not a matter of WILL power, it's all about WON'T power.

Hey, that's good. I am going to start using it. :)

[Keith Witty]

"I want to try everything before I buy my second (and final in all odds ) mandolin. "


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH..........AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA .........AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHH.........

oh that's a good one....seriously, you outta be on the stage.

Remember: It's not a matter of WILL power, it's all about WON'T power.

No, it's a financial thing. I know I can't predict the future. But I don't think Youth Pastors make gobs of money and usually have to take a second job. It's not that I won't want more, it's that I pretty much can't have more.

[dcoventry]

No, it's a financial thing. I know I can't predict the future. But I don't think Youth Pastors make gobs of money and usually have to take a second job. It's not that I won't want more, it's that I pretty much can't have more.

With an attitude like that, you'll never do anything silly, silly!

Life has a funny way of giving you the most unexpected things. It oft times depends on what you think is important with respect to your happiness and fulfilment. And that's what we're after, right? Right!

You're choosing to do something phenomenally cool and giving. That's gotta put some good karma in your corner.

Enough Witty banter for now.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

Interesting thread and great read....

[almeriastrings]

It is very important to recognise, when going over threads on a brand (particularly the low-mid range brands) that things change over time. The various manufacturers and importers are "chasing each other" to win market share. In doing that, they often change specifications and even change the sources of their instruments, while keeping the exact same brand. Sometimes specifications and materials change with only slight changes to model number - or even none at all. Take Kentucky, for example. Over time, they have changed country of origin several times, and at various times, quality has changed. Upwards, and downwards. Right now, it is very good. Other brands too have changed sources at various times. See the threads on J Bovier, for example. What this means in practice is that the "best buy" at a particular price point changes too. It is therefore important to compare current output as comparisons of only a year or two ago may not hold true today.

Changes in instruments over time are not restricted just to 'mass market' models, either, of course. Gibson too have had good times and bad, and you still find people debating whether a new Gilchrist is 'better' than an early example... however, it is in that <$1500 range that you tend to see very quick changes in specification/performance, often with no formal notice of what has changed, or when. For example:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?82496-Kentucky-km900-top