The Demise of Freshwater

[ourmick]

It is with great sadness that I have recently read that my good old friend David Freshwater has gone out of production / business. :crying: He produced many "cheap" Octave Mandolins, Bouzoukis and Mandolas for "Lark in the Morning" I believe. He fixed one that I had bought from LITM and made it into a new instrument. It is a sad loss to the World. Anyone else ?

[Tom C]

If you really want to know....

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?74330-Freshwater-Instruments-close-down&highlight=Freshwater

[George R. Lane]

I don't personally know the man but, from what I have read here on the Cafe he has left several people in the lurch. He took their money and then told them they won't get their instrument or their money back. In my opinion he is a despecible excuse for a human being. I know my opinion will be looked down upon but, it doesn't change the fact that he took money knowning he would never make the instruments.

[ourmick]

Yes... I've read the lot... and I am aghast at the situation - and of people's thoughts about David and his Business. I don't know what to think, but perhaps I suppose I was lucky, in so much as my dealings with him were in 2002, when he was - in my opinion - a very genuine person / business. I find it difficult to read that so many people believe that he was, in any way, a crook. David gave me excellent service with my new instrument in 2002 (delivered on time) and the aforementioned revitalised instrument thereafter.

[michaelpthompson]

I don't personally know the man but, from what I have read here on the Cafe he has left several people in the lurch. He took their money and then told them they won't get their instrument or their money back. In my opinion he is a despecible excuse for a human being. I know my opinion will be looked down upon but, it doesn't change the fact that he took money knowning he would never make the instruments.

Actually, if you read the extensive thread on the subject that has been going on for some time, you'll find that we don't really know a lot of details, but it seems quite likely that he had no choice. In fact, some of the complaints were that he DIDN'T tell them they wouldn't get their instrument. There was speculation that he was prohibited from doing so. Sounds more like he's a passionate builder who fell victim to poor management and difficult financial times.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I understand George Lane's comments,but I also think that he was less of a 'crook' than somebody who found himself between a rock & a hard place at some point in time,& as michael above says,the info.regarding the true situation isn't all that good.
If David Freshwater had got into some financial difficulties of one sort or another,then the collapse of world financial stability,not to mention our own individual financial situations, could very well have been the last nail in the coffin.
As i said in a previous post,i'd be willing to bet any money that Dave Freshwater wishes he was still up & running with his business. His business has sunk & it's more than possible that the guy owes money that he simply hasn't got.
Until the 'true' story emerges,then it's very hard to apportion blame,
Ivan

[Tavy]

Just a note that the other thread now has details of agent acting for his bankrupsy.... sorry story all round whatever happened.

[George R. Lane]

If he was a man of integrity he would have told the bankers or whomever that he could not decieve his customers. He is as guilty as those who told him to keep taking orders. I own a small business and my word is my bond.

[Mandobar]

The deception is his alone. As a banker of more than 20 years it is a long process to shut a business down and force it into receivership. More than likely there were a lot of discussions before their attorneys forced him into liquidation. Hence the delays in delivering instruments over the past few years. But lord, be an adult, be responsible and fess up to your customers. Believe me, it was no the bank who told him to take more orders. That's fraud.

I think it's irresponsible to tell folks to call their credit card companies to collect on your debt.

I think there is a bit more to the story than we know, or will probably ever know.

[George R. Lane]

Mandobar,
I agree with you 100%.

[thistle3585]

I have seen a number of businesses go under in the last couple years and I have a new found compassion for the struggle that those people deal with going through that process. Most often, they are trying to salvage their own lives and really can't see too far beyond that. It is a real overwhelming experience and I think they tend to kick in to survival mode trying to do whatever they can to salvage the situation but it is often too late. There are other builders that have gone through this in the past few years and quite a few have reestablished their businesses, have structured them in a different manner by building on spec, and began to make reparations. Its just a slow train wreck and it may take time to see what the actual damage is going to be.

[almeriastrings]

I think it's irresponsible to tell folks to call their credit card companies to collect on your debt.


That is simply the law in the UK. If you buy an airline ticket for cash, and the airline goes under - you have lost your money. If you used a credit card, however, under UK law (Consumer Credit Act, Section 75), for transactions between £100 and £30,000 the card issuer is "jointly and severally" liable for your loss and must refund you. Official word on this here:

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/31/creditcards-31.htm

Unfortunately, if you used an overseas card, things are not as easy. It is commonplace for businesses in compulsory liquidation/bankruptcy in the UK to refer claims for goods purchased via credit card to the card issuer, however. That is just standard practice. It is the way things are done there. It is probably the only way those folks have of getting their hard-earned cash back...

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Mandobar - "Believe me, it was not the bank who told him to take more orders. That's fraud.". In the original thread re.Freshwater's demise,it was suggested that it was the 'receivers' not any bank who advised Dave Freshwater to keep taking orders,& i made the very same point,if that was the case,then it's FRAUD - pure & simple. Somehow i can't imagine any receiver / bank advising such a course of action,
Ivan

[allenhopkins]

Here's Crieftan's info from the other Freshwater thread:

Re: Freshwater Instruments close down
Folks - it is official. David Freshwater has been declared bankrupt as of 11 August 2011. Anyone owed money should get in touch with the undernoted: -

Case Ref: 2011/12677

Trustee details
Date appointed: 11/08/2011
Name: Rosemary Winter-Scott
Company Name: Accountant In Bankruptcy
Address: 1, Pennyburn Road, KILWINNING, Ayrshire, KA13 6SA
Phone number: 0300 200 2600
Email: AiBenquiries@aib.gsi.gov.uk

Trustees Agent: Lynne Flower
Company Name: KPMG
Address: Department 811, 191 PO Box 26967, West George Street, GLASGOW, G2 9DX
Phone number: 0141 300 5888
Email: aib@kpmg.co.uk

My "take" on this, FWIW, is that by continuing to promise delivery when he knew he was unlikely to fulfill those promises, Mr. Freshwater went from "unfortunate victim of bad economic times and the uncertainties of the musical instrument market," to "all of the above, PLUS flirting with the borders of unethical behavior." I can conceive of no scenario, under which he would be compelled by a third party to tell a client that his instrument would be finished in six weeks, knowing full well that it wouldn't.

Sometimes I wonder if we're not cutting an excessive amount of slack, because of the business he was in -- we're all "mandolin folks" here, and so we make allowances we wouldn't otherwise. If the guy who's building your new kitchen cabinets took payment, promised to show up but didn't, stalled you with a variety of excuses, and then went bankrupt leaving you to stand in a creditors' line in hopes of getting some portion of what you're owed -- would you be so understanding?

[Daithio]

What bugs me is that from other posts on this site clients have claimed that they ordered instruments after I did and received them in good order. I was always civil, and always made pleasant conversation, but he treated others' business with preference to mine. There is something crooked in this. Was he on the brink of insolvency when I ordered in 2009? Why didn't he warn me then? I know bankruptcy can take a long time, but 2 1/2 years? And people who ordered in Sept. of last year got their instruments? I'm sorry but I can't think of him except as incompetent at best and crooked at worst. I hope he has some hard questions to answer in court and is kept awake at least an hour for every dollar, pound, or euro he pilfered from people who trusted him.

[michaelpthompson]

If your business was struggling, the last thing you would do would be to turn down orders. None of us really know the details of what was going on in his business or his head during this. Do you really imagine he was thinking, "Gee, I think I'll take people's money and then declare bankruptcy."? Perhaps he was doing his best to deliver as many instruments as he could, but couldn't afford materials or had to do other work to stay alive, or whatever. We really don't know, but it's just as likely as the idea that he's some unethical con artist. All I know is what I've read on Mandolin Café and I don't see the evidence for that. Perhaps anger at not receiving an instrument is clouding opinions. It's at least possible.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From michaelT - "Gee, I think I'll take people's money and then declare bankruptcy."?. While i understand your comments & the meaning behind them Michael,so many fraudsters do exactly that !!. It's hard to weed out the good guys from the bad in those circumstances,without knowing the full story,
Ivan

[michaelpthompson]

From michaelT - "Gee, I think I'll take people's money and then declare bankruptcy."?. While i understand your comments & the meaning behind them Michael,so many fraudsters do exactly that !!. It's hard to weed out the good guys from the bad in those circumstances,without knowing the full story,
Ivan

I agree entirely Ivan, and I'm not necessarily defending him. Nobody has shared any "inside information" about what was really going on behind the scenes. It's all speculation after the fact, coupled with anger about not receiving an instrument. But from all accounts, he did make good instruments for several years before this and their owners seem to be happy with them. Overpromised? Quite likely, but he just doesn't sound like the purposeful fraudster type. More like a guy who likes to build mandolins but isn't great at business and got in over his head. Then again, that's me blowing smoke after the fact with no insider information. ;)

[allenhopkins]

Let me bring over a portion of mandotorius's post from this current thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?74330-Freshwater-Instruments-close-down) in the Builders forum:

You all can add me to the list of sad stories: I paid in full for my octave mandolin in September 2009(!), and have been hearing Freshwater's stories about couriers and heavy frost ever since then.

That's what erodes my sympathy for a talented luthier struggling to survive in tough economic times: the lying. I think every one of us understands that hand-building mandolin-family instruments is a risky profession. Don't want to sound holier-than-thou, but had I ordered an instrument, and had I been told that "things are tough here, I'm having problems, doing my best but can't promise when or if I can build your instrument," I think I would have understood. But to be frequently put off with tall tales about weather and shipping issues and such, when the basic reality was impending business failure, makes the final loss of deposits -- and, in some cases, full payments -- less forgivable.

As a side note, I understand Freshwater built instruments for Lark In the Morning, which apparently has been going through its own downsizing and reorganization recently. Could reduced sales to a fairly large customer have been involved in the Freshwater failure? I have no info here, just speculating, and would be glad to hear from someone who has more knowledge.

[Tom C]

Maybe it's a less of a hit on his credit and assets by giving the bank all of what he could so he can start something else one day -even at the expense of others.

[almeriastrings]

Once he's bankrupt, he has no credit. Zilch. Not for a very long time. It really would not matter if he owed £750 -about $1100 - (the minimum a creditor can petition for bankruptcy over), or 750 million. All assets would be liquidated and distributed. Preferential creditors first in line, sadly, that means government debts, secured creditors, etc., over customers who have paid deposits or made full payments up front.... it would make no real sense to minimise the debts at that point. It is a pretty serious position to be in. If it is a private trader (not a limited company or corporation) they can lose just about everything, including their home. I have no personal knowledge of this particular case, and I can understand those who have lost money or who feel they have been mislead being very upset. I would be too. Just pointing out that bankruptcy in the UK for an individual is not just a "walk away from all your debts" kind of deal. It has very serious, long-term consequences.

[violmando]

As someone who has gone through medical bankruptcy and continues with financial problems on a daily basis, the continuous taking of orders may not have been as deliberate as it seems. When you are in such desperate straits, you clutch at straws and some days, he may have felt that taking a new order, especially one that he had already some of the materials for, might just bring in some needed cash. His judgement would have been clouded by worry and stress; I know how stressed out we were and it wasn't a business with that many creditors breathing down our necks....You're ready to try ANYTHING. No excuses, I'm just explaining HOW. You are not normal under such conditions...

[Ivan Kelsall]

violmando - I couldn't agree more. Desperation can cause you take desperate measures which may or may not help,in fact very often,they just dig you in deeper,until.........,
Ivan:(