octave mando design

[Rich Michaud]

Michael Lewis is building an octave mando for me. The question is what should the neck length be? Second, what string guages should be used? Anyone got any ideas? Your thought will be greatly appreciated. Rich Michaud

[Steve L]

Rich, I think we can offer you a bit more input if we have a sense of what you want to do with it and perhaps if we know if you've ever played guitar or not.

My experience is that a 21 inch or so scale length is very comfortable for playing melody but can sound a bit "tubby" if you're wanting to primarily play chords. But if you've only played mando or fiddle, stretches that a guitar player wouldn't think twice about might still feel ungodly. The Flatiron scale length of about 24" is, in my opinion, a good compromise between octave mando and zouk. It's a bit gnarly getting up to a B on the high string but it's still manageable.

[Rich Michaud]

Thanks Steve. Yes, I play guitar as well. However, to play melody lines with speed I am concerned about having a neck that requires a lot of stretches. I suppose I could plan on just using a capo but I don't think the design should assume that. How about a 21" neck or so?

[Luthier]

I use a 22.875 on my kits which is the same as a tenor banjo scale. #if you take off the first two frets, your scale becomes 20.379. #I have used both. #The shorter scale will require a bit heavier gauge string to compensate.

Don

[arrowmandolin]

Hey, I just did a lot of work on coming up with my new standard fretscale for the Arrow octave......Be careful of going too short! I've found that under 22.5"[even with an increased neck angle] just does not have enough power for my ear. Not just volume,but sustain and depth really suffer.
On the other hand, longer than 23" can obviously be a monster to get around on. I settled on 22.75".
By the way, Tim O'brien's Nugget is just under 24".

[Steve L]

It sounds like Don and Paul have a lot of knowledge and thoughtful experience in coming up with their scale lengths. Once you start getting into these instruments, depth of tone and sustain become big issues and I suspect the difference between a 21" and a 22" plus change would be, as both gentlemen suggest, surprisingly noticeable.

Also be very aware that you are opening yourself up to a whole new universe of MAS. You will love having an octave no matter what you decide. What type of woods, body style and soundhole are you going with and how soon do you have to make your decision?

[steve V. johnson]

Paul, your G-OM is really exciting looking!

My Phil Crump B-II (called a bouzouki) is 24.5 scale length, and I like it, coming from guitar playing. It's essentially the same length as my Santa Cruz OM PW guitar.

I have a Fylde Touchstone that is nominally 21+7/8", which is 22" to the nut but it uses a zero fret, which takes off the eighth of an inch. It's a nice length and I don't think it gives up any bottom. The Crump is very deep-sounding, but the Fylde is pretty rich. I leave it in GDAE to play mando-way on it, while the Crump is in GDAD.

I keep thinking that I'd like something that sounds more mandolinish (more like that Arrow of Tim O'Brien's), but I have fun with a capo on the Crump because the result is still a deep and resonant tone, but in a higher range.

Here's an excerpt from an email from Phil Crump about his OMs:

"The usual scale for the OM is 22.75 with 15 frets to the body joint. You could also get 21.5 with 13 frets to the body or 20.25 with 12 frets to the body. "

Most of the OMs I have seen are in the 21-23" range. Over that there seems to be a different use and a different way of thinking about them, as per the change in nomenclature from OM to bouzouki...

HTH,

stv

[delsbrother]

Weber uses 22" on carved top OMs, but 23-1/2" on flat tops. Interesting.

[jefflester]

I keep thinking that I'd like something that sounds more mandolinish (more like that Arrow of Tim O'Brien's)
I believe the instrument you are thinking of is not an Arrow. Tim plays an OM by an Italian named Corrado Giacomel, that he affectionately calls "The Turtle." It's a 20 inch scale.

At the bottom of http://www.timobrien.net/ there's a box highlighting his intruments. Refreshing the page cycles through them in a random order. There may be a better way to find out about this instrument, but I am unawares.

[jmkatcher]

I think people are thinking of the older Nugget archtop guitar shaped octave that Tim used. The current one is different in looks and has a shorter scale.

[otterly2k]

Rich-
I'd encourage you to play a few instruments of different scales if you can find a way to do it. See what feels/sounds right to you. I think in the range that has been framed out above, it's mostly a matter of personal preference, comfort, stretch/hand size, and what you like to play.

KE

[Rich Michaud]

Thank you all for your thoughtful and helpful suggestions. My tentative conclusion is 22.75. As far as the design, I like the look of O'Brien's old Nuggget version. However I have great faith and confidence in Michael Lewis to design the instrument and will defer to his artistry. Rich

[Rich Michaud]

I checked Tim O'brien's website and sure enough on the bottom of his mailing list is a picture an description of his shrunken Nugget version of a Gibson L-5, strung gG, d/D, AA and EE. This sounds good to me. Anyone have any objections? Rich

[Chris Baird]

Tim Obrien just visted my neck of the woods and I checked out his Italian made bouzouki. #A nice looking instrument with Monteleone-like features. He played it well but it came out sounding a little thin as compared with some of his alternative instruments in the long-mando family.

[dane]

I'd agree in general with the views already expressed. Be aware, though, that if you go with compromise solution (22-23") that's exactly what you'll get -- an instrument that is significantly harder to play melody on than a 20-21" octave mandola, and one with significantly less ring and sustain on chord accompaniment than a 25+" bouzouki. I started out my own venture into the CBOM world with a Weber Sage OM, which had (I think) a 23" scale. I pretty quickly sold it and replaced it with a 20" Buchanan (which I tune GDAE and use for melody) and a 25.5" Petersen zouk (which I tune ADAD and use primarily for chord accompaniment).

I think it's also worth mentioning that while it is close to impossible to directly transfer mando tuning and mando fingering to a long-scale zouk, you can definitely play melody on the instrument, especially if you use a more flexible tuning like ADAD.

[Michael Wolf]

One addition to the scale-length-question: I feel one more possibility is a mandola tuned DAEA. The compromise here is to get used to the tuning. But you have the ringin zouki-tone (only smaler) with the upper quart, but also DAE for melody, and a convenient scale.
I try this at the moment with a Stuart-Mandola and have it in CGDG (DAEA in 2nd position).
In sessions this makes sense for me, because there are always guitars and mandos and the mandola has its own, nice tonality.
In addition I have a reso-tenor-guitar, mainly for melody, with 23" scale, but the single strings and the narrow neck make it easier to play.

Cheers
Michael

[Martin Jonas]

One addition to the scale-length-question: I feel one more possibility is a mandola tuned DAEA. The compromise here is to get used to the tuning. But you have the ringin zouki-tone (only smaler) with the upper quart, but also DAE for melody, and a convenient scale.
I do this on my 660mm (26") GDAE bouzouki by putting a capo on the 7th fret. It gives me DAEB, which is great for melody work with convenient stretches and I can whip the capo off to switch to chords.

Martin

[PhilGE]

Rich, I have a 20" scale length "Octave Mandola 500" from Thomas Buchanan. The 500 stands for 500 mm. It's a flat top with a pin bridge that really makes it sing sweet on melody and roar on rhythm. This is not at all the traditional way of building mandolin family instruments, but it works out great for this OM. Also, Jack Spira builds some wonderful OMs and Bouzoukis with pin bridges. The 17" scale mandola (thanks, Dolamon) sings incredibly sweet and loud with more than enough punch on rhythm. Might be fun for you and Michael to consider what you could come up with in a shorter scale instrument using a pin bridge. I'm sure a 21" scale with a pin bridge would be one dynamite instrument!

-Phil

P.S. See photos of my Jack Spira mandola (http://homepage.mac.com/philg2/SpiraPix/PhotoAlbum19.html). I don't have any great shots of the Buchanan Octave Mandolin at the moment, but below is one from Thomas's website. You can also see great pix of this style of Dane's Buchanan OM HERE. (http://community.webshots.com/album/65464069YgnZia)

http://www.geocities.com/tbluthier/tom2_files/image008.jpg

[Michael Wolf]

Phil,

nice instrument.
I already owned a bouzouki with fixed bridge and played it a few years. It was a Stevens from Munich with 24,5" scale and it was raelly high end. But then I realized, that i prefer the floating bridge for it's attack and more distinct sound. The fixed bridge sounded a bit to much like a guitar to me (it actually was build like a guitar construction-wise) and it was often lost in sessions with other guitars. Though the sound was full and rich, it projected not so well, especially when playing melodie.
My impression is that the floating bridge mandola stands out of the mix better and so compliments the fiddles and flutes very well. Also I like the more archaic "greek" sound.
But on the other hand, when I'd get a fixed bridge instrument in my hands today, I'd probably like it and would like to have one, who knows.

Cheers
Michael

[Dolamon]

This is a link to one of Jack Spira's (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=16;t=17487;hl=jack+spira)pi n bridge instruments which he made for me last year. Remarkable instrument, very well thought out and very playable in almost any circumstances. As for a "Guitar Like Tone" - well not really, there is a lot of sustain / resonance and actually more "punch" than any pin bridge I've ever owned or played. It is just different and not Greek sounding at all. Spira instruments are also the only O/M sized instruments I know of which can be played finger style - and heard.

As for scale length - get a capo on a regular guitar, tune at least four strings in fifths and see where playing is comfortable and fast. It surprised me that a true Irish Tenor banjo scaled instrument (@540mm or 21.25 inches) could work as well as it does for both rhythm and melody.

[Gan Ainm]

Another 2 cents:
I had a skilled "hobbiest maker" who had built about 5 beautiful guitars build me a 20.5 inch neck Octave mando.
Flat top, floating bridge, the body ended up a little small in volume because of some slight in-curve at the neck end of body. Looked stunning, but never played loudly or crsply, a bit disappointed sound-wise. UNTIL, I was fooling with tunings and read that the famed English maker Stefan Sobell made his MANDOLA'S with 20" necks! #So I held my breath and put mandola strings on and tuned it up... (CGDA) it is very well built and didn't seem to suffer. And sounded like it was born to it. Lovely ringing sound for melody and chords. Sometimes I tune it down a whole step for a Klezmer gig with lots of flats, gives me essentially a "Bb Instrument". #Eventually bought a Steve Parks 'Zouk with 23" neck, and sounds fine in GDAE. #So agree, beware the short neck unless you want to tune it up a bit. I find the 23 inch neck sounds excellent and is playable for both chords and melody, but of course need to learn to modify technique. John Mcgan's tutor is awsome, as we hip young people say.
Colin

[Michael Lewis]

Lots of great insight offered. This is such a subjective consideration that Rich will have to play some examples of various scales to get a feel of what he would like. The Nugget in question has a scale of 23 1/2" according to Mike Kemnitzer (same as a Flatiron, he said). The body is a replica of the early L5, not scaled down. Listen to the "Real Time" CD by Tim O and Darrell Scott, and there are a couple great examples of what that instrument does well. One is the tune "Little Sadie" and the other is "More Love". What a ringing "hammer" to drive a tune!

[Dolamon]

String sizes to scale length. One thing which wasn't touched on here is - the shorter the scale length, the thicker the strings need to be to get an effective sound. A terrific, simplified version of a string guage calculator is at Doug Deiter's (http://www.kennaquhair.com/) Kennaquhair site. This is at the bottom of his menu list as "Universal String Guage Calculator' and while it doesn't have all the string variations ... it will get you in the ball park.

It amazed me that the universal sets of "Octave Strings" could be so floppy and imprecise on some insturments - until I got into using and really exploring this little program.

The point of this is - even a one inch length difference from one instrument to another 'may' require a different set of strings to balance out the sound.

Oh yes - Doug does build some interesting looking, great sounding instruments for a reasonible price. The whole web site is worth exploring ...

[Rich Michaud]

Once again, thanks all for the thoughtful and helpful points raised about the design of the octave mandolin to be crafted by Michael Lewis. We will have to post pics when the project actually starts. Thanks guys Rich

[Rich Michaud]

Thanks all for the help in design and scale length. After some very valuable input from John McGann, we have decided on a 23 inch + or - scale lengh with .047, .032, .020 and .012 strings, bronze or phosphor wound except .012. Michael says the overtones will be better with the longer lengh. John says I will have to learn new fingering anyway so I should go for tone. The die is cast. If anyone is interested, I will post development in Michael's creation of this baby. Rich

[jmkatcher]

Please do continue to post updates. Personally, I'm interested in comparing your instrument to my somewhat similar one which should be ready in the February time frame.

[mandolman]

Beware with the neck is not too wide. That's the problem with my freshwater OM...To make barestring is a bit difficult. A thin neck is better and you can move easily your thumb