Sovereign Mandolin

[OneFineBob]

Hello,
This is a mandolin I was given as a gift less than a year ago. It is my first, and I'm having a blast learning to play it. I know little about it - best I've heard is that it is likely mid-20s and I've seen on the internet that Oscar Schmidtt bought out the Sovereign line? Does anyone know anything else about this type of mandolin?

Thanks so much!
Bob

[OneFineBob]

And here are a few more pictures...

[barney 59]

Or was it that Kay/Harmony bought out the Sovereign line from Schmidtt? Sovereign was a Harmony product in the 1960's. This mandolin is quite similar to a Weymann Mandolute.

[Jake Wildwood]

...

Sovereign was the higher-end Oscar Schmidt brand, then they also had La Scala and Stella brands as well. Hilo was their Hawaiian guitar brand from back then, too.

OS vanished around 1940 and the names of their brands were sold to Harmony. You see Harmony releasing new OS-named instruments (Stella and Sovereign) in late 1939 (?) I think.

Your mando dates to around c.1920-1925, just as you suspected. RE the Weymann mandolute comment -- yes and no -- these have a more distinct canted top design and they sound like a darker, saucier version of the canted-top flatbacks (with the teardrop shape) produced by Lyon & Healy, Harmony, and Regal at the time. The Weymanns tend to be deeper-bodied and with less of a cant (almost just domed) and higher, thinner bracing, which produces more of a refined tone with (generally) sculpted bass.

Does that make sense?

My short-of-it? These things kick butt after they're gone-over and setup.

[brunello97]

It's nice to have a proper, easily searchable Sovereign thread. I figured Mike E would dive in on this, so I am glad, Jake, that you picked it up. I don't know much about them, other than they do seem to be a notch above ordinary and I tend to toss in a desultory bid when they pass by on ebay. Typically, good looking mandolins. Here is one I have in my files which looks very Chicago to me (unlike Bob's) though my guess this is also '20s and predates the Harmony era (or perhaps that started sooner.....) I have seen some very nice bowlbacks under their label as well.

This would seem a good place for folks to weigh in with a few more examples. I don't have good Mandolute images in my files, but that would also be a nice pair of photos to comp to illustrate Jake's point.

Mick

[Jake Wildwood]

Definitely predates the Harmony era... I've worked on that same design about a dozen times in various OS-named (and distributor named) variations from the '20s. You can check em out in some reprint catalogs, too -- fun stuff!

[8ch(pl)]

Nice instrument.

[OneFineBob]

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts and insight into this instrument! I quickly fell in love with it, and I'm excited to see where things go from here.

[wcaseyb]

Hello! Joined just to post in this thread. I have a Sovereign M280 that is from the 90's I believe but I haven't seen any made that recently anywhere else or been able to find any information on it at all. It was purchased from a local music store in Dickson, Tn called Mary's Music I believe. It is basically the same as this one but darker.

http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-5011.htm

Does anyone have any information on it or links to material where I can learn more about it? Thanks so much.

[MikeEdgerton]

Yours is an imported mandolin that was brought in under a few different brand names and is related to the mandolin in this thread only by name, there is no connection by builder.

[wcaseyb]

Gotcha. Thanks so much. Where can I find some information about it?

[MikeEdgerton]

The quick answer is that you probably won't find any definitive information. These didn't set the world on fire and the company that used the name probably didn't use it very long.

[wcaseyb]

So basically, they were just knock offs? It seems like if there are enough out there that people know kind of what happened with them that there would at least be a site dedicated to bashing them! Ha, I appreciate all of your feedback.

[MikeEdgerton]

Honestly I think you'll find at least one picture of a similar mandolin in the worst scroll of the last century thread but it won't give you any more information.

[Capt. E]

I thought I'd renew this thread with my newly acquired Sovereign...Except for having a replacement bridge, it is all original and in great condition with the original canvus end-loading case.. Plays very nicely and I'll agree about the "darker, saucier" comment.

I have a serial number stamped on the brace seen below the soundhole: 30 07642

106672

[Splinterd!]

202149
Looks a lot like your mandolin. (in need of some repair obviously)
Belonged to my grandfather. (more than 60 years old)
Do you know how old yours is?
It has a 1927 penny soldered to one of the tuning pegs LOL

[NickR]

It is a 1920s Oscar Schmidt Sovereign with rope binding and that was done at that time for instruments with a "Hawaiian" flavour. On that basis, it looks like your mandolin may be made of Koa. Mine is spruce and mahogany.

202151

[Splinterd!]

Thanks for the info.
I notice that your pick guard is lifting up along one edge also, I guess this is normal for mandolins this old.

[NickR]

Here's a Koa Sovereign- people ask stupid money for these but I don't know if they get it! Some are more Ritzy looking than this model:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9lrhtlApoc

The pickguard on mine is inlaid into the top and is still flush with the top and the binding all round.

[brunello97]

As I said around 10+ years ago (yikes!) on this thread: "It's nice to have a proper, easily searchable Sovereign thread...."

Nick, the body shape on yours looks distinctly different from Splintered's...his having the distinct recurve at the body / neck joint similar to Notre Capitaine's and yours displaying the "Weyman-esque" body shape we see in OFB's post from a decade ago.

My hunch is that Oscar Schmidt jobbed out a range of mandolins for different labels...likely some which they owned themselves....similar to L+H's practice.


They might very well have had two different body molds they were working with at the same time, with both shape mandolins winding up with the same Sovereign nameplate.


However, Splintered's, the one I posted and that of Mon Capitaine might very well be Chicago made. They certainly look like it.


Reading back through the thread, I'm in general agreement with Jake...I keep an eye out for Sovereign instruments because some of them were a notch above the basic jobber flatbacks of the time, in material quality, craftspersonship and detailing.

Other Sovereigns were mandolinas ordinarias, sin salsa.

Mick

[NickR]

Mick, that's interesting and I agree- the shape is most definitely like a Weymann and mine sounds really great, too. Whether or not they were made by other makers, I guess we will never know. I was comparing my Sovereign to the OS Tremolina I recently bought but there were not many similarities- or any as far as I could see This old Stella- which is more like a Sovereign- it started really high and has ebbed away in price over the many months but it is an interesting instrument but has major issues- to say the least!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185013631556?hash=item2b13abfa44:g:AD0AAOSwCxNhJCD Z

[brunello97]

Yes, Nick, I’ve been teasing Mike E and Jim G that they should pool their knowledge and write a book about the local PA / NJ / NY builders: Weymann, Bauer, Schmidt, Ricca, Favilla, etc.

Even a stab at a comprehensive book on Schmidt, a la the books on Washburn and Regal, would be great.


Hard not to assume some kind of link between Schmidt and Weymann.

The Schmidt - Ciani connection is a fascinating story to unravel in its own right.

Yep, that Stella is a bit of a mess.

Someone here once posited that the notorious top cracking on Weymann mando lutes was due to an oversized neck block .. had some photos and a theory I won’t try to repeat here, but the Stella top cracking makes me wonder. The neck block might be a clue towards a common origin.

Mick

[Splinterd!]

The bridge on this Sovereign is damaged, part of the plastic portion on the bridge has cracked off. wondering if I can find and/or make a plastic insert to repair.
I've looked online, and so far can only find solid wood versions, or wood with plastic but not wide enough.202161

[rcc56]

I recommend a bone guitar saddle blank. Some guitar shops sell them. One supplier is AllParts. Another is Luthier's Mercantile. Thin to fit snugly, but not so tight that you crack the bridge. It helps to blunt the sharp edge on the bottom with a fine file. Then cut to size with the tools of your choice.

[NickR]

You have a suggestion as per above. These old bridges appear on eBay quite often while Jake Wildwood who contributed at the start uses some new bridges that you can see on eBay if you search for "vintage mandolin bridge". This old bridge is not the same but it might do the job- although you will need to get the seller to measure the height and compare it to yours as if it is too short you would have to glue a shim on the base.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334488954557?hash=item4de11866bd:g:FRwAAOSwHk9iUFJ 1

[Splinterd!]

You have a suggestion as per above. These old bridges appear on eBay quite often while Jake Wildwood who contributed at the start uses some new bridges that you can see on eBay if you search for "vintage mandolin bridge". This old bridge is not the same but it might do the job- although you will need to get the seller to measure the height and compare it to yours as if it is too short you would have to glue a shim on the base.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334488954557?hash=item4de11866bd:g:FRwAAOSwHk9iUFJ 1

That one on ebay looks like it will do the trick. the width of the bone insert is right.
I think your right, may have to shim a bit, or if the insert comes out easily, I could just replace the existing insert.
Thanks!

[Splinterd!]

sss

[Splinterd!]

Made up some binding strips. Used maple & wenge. This will be a close match to the original binding once I put a finish on it. (just locally)
I had enough of the wenge sitting around the shop, so I used it.

Cleaned it up, using just water and a microfiber cloth, then followed up with a little plastx.
Cleanup of the repair area was more difficult due to old attempted repair. (a lot of excess adhesive)
Now just need to fine tune the fit of the binding strips202339202340202341202342202343202344202345

[Splinterd!]

I decided to work just on the missing pieces of the binding strips, but I have a blank big enough to make binding strips for the whole top if I need to at a later time.

[rcc56]

You are on the right track.

A difficulty that I foresee is that your strips may be difficult or impossible to bend and fit without breaking them.

If so, you can try to glue a thin border to the outside of a strip to temporarily hold it together, then shave it off after the strip is glued in place. I'd make a dry run with just one strip, and if that doesn't work, go to plan B.

Which is: Cut your strips extra wide and cut a radius into the inner edge to fit the shape of the channel. Shave off the excess after the strips are glued in place. You may get better results using several short strips rather than one long strip.

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It would be easier to replace the bridge saddle than to replace the bridge. See if your music store has or can order an AllParts bone saddle. If that takes an act of congress, pm me and I'll send you a piece of bone.

[Richard500]

Good going. Much nicer than my slapdash method. I’m wondering if the ancients didn’t make curved cuts in the process to make fitting easier. That, and how leveling with the side and top was done on a production basis.

[Splinterd!]

You have a suggestion as per above. These old bridges appear on eBay quite often while Jake Wildwood who contributed at the start uses some new bridges that you can see on eBay if you search for "vintage mandolin bridge". This old bridge is not the same but it might do the job- although you will need to get the seller to measure the height and compare it to yours as if it is too short you would have to glue a shim on the base.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334488954557?hash=item4de11866bd:g:FRwAAOSwHk9iUFJ 1

I went ahead and purchased this on ebay. If the height is not right, I should be able to salvage the bone insert and replace my broken one.
Thanks for the link!

[Splinterd!]

[QUOTE=rcc56;1873522]You are on the right track.

A difficulty that I foresee is that your strips may be difficult or impossible to bend and fit without breaking them.

If so, you can try to glue a thin border to the outside of a strip to temporarily hold it together, then shave it off after the strip is glued in place. I'd make a dry run with just one strip, and if that doesn't work, go to plan B.

Which is: Cut your strips extra wide and cut a radius into the inner edge to fit the shape of the channel. Shave off the excess after the strips are glued in place. You may get better results using several short strips rather than one long strip.

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Fortunately, after getting close to the final thickness, the strips have enough flexability to conform the curve.
If the repair was more towards the lower corners, I think you're right, I might have to pre-radius the pieces, (or steam them) to get them to conform

[Splinterd!]

I thought the binding strips would be flexible enough after getting close to final thickness, but was unable to clamp it up without leaving a gap under one end.
I took rcc56's suggestion and sanded a shallow radius on the back (bonding) side of the binding strip. I used my oscillating sander with a zero clearance insert. to make quick work of the sanding.
If I had it to do over again I would have made the wood strips I used a little thinner. I made the strips 0.100" thick. When I made the 45 degree cut, that left the exposed dimension at the edge somewhat wider. Perhaps not that obvious to most, but one of those things that bug me.
At any rate, a little more sanding, and will be finished with the binding strip repair.202424202425202426202427202428

[NickR]

It is coming on really well- a "learn as you go" experience and I am looking forward to seeing the instrument returned to its original glory.

[Splinterd!]

It is coming on really well- a "learn as you go" experience and I am looking forward to seeing the instrument returned to its original glory.
203038 203039

Added the new bridge and restrung, set the intonation (I think I got it pretty close).
Sounds pretty good.
I also took care of a few cracks on the side and back of the mando.
The frets and fretboard up near the nut could use a little work. (wood is worn a bit under the strings, and the frets in this area are a bit worn also)
But I think to do a decent job of that, I might have to remove all the frets, and sand the fretboard smooth.
Seeing a how it sounds good with no buzzing, etc... at this point I think I'll leave it alone.

[Splinterd!]

..

[rcc56]

If you can find fretwire that's reasonably close in size to the original, chances are good that you can replace the first few without re-working the fingerboard. On an instrument such as this, I will usually replace the first 7 frets and dress them down close to the height of the remaining frets. It doesn't hurt to leave the new frets a shade higher than the originals.

In most cases, divots in the board do not affect the way a fret will seat. If they are not very deep, I generally leave them alone. If they are very deep, one technique that is frequently used is to fill them with the appropriate color wood dust and CA or epoxy, then level and proceed in the normal manner.

Good info on fretwork can be found at www.frets.com. Select "items for luthiers" and you will find plenty of information.

If it were me, I would flush up the bridge shim to the edges of the bridge and maybe wipe a little stain on the visible surfaces.

[Splinterd!]

Thanks for the link. Frets.com has some great info. I liked the fix for low areas on the fret-board using a razor blade, wood dust, and Super Glue. (I only wonder how durable the super glue/wood dust combination. Has anyone here tried that fix?

when setting the intonation, I had to move the bridge slightly on top of the pick guard. Flushing up the shim and the bridge would solve that problem. I'll put it on my to-do list.

[rcc56]

Very durable.

I tried the razor blade technique a couple of times-- I decided against it because of the risk of carving up a finger badly, and thought the results were not worth the extra trouble. It's perhaps the only one of their techniques that I didn't care for.

Instead, I use the more standard technique of brushing the divot with a drop of alcohol, maybe scoring it with an X-acto knife, then filling it with glue and dust. You have to make yourself wait a little while before you work it down.