First Mandolin, Bowlback

[ultimastar]

I'm Alex from the UK
I'm looking to start playing classical Mandolin but I'm having trouble finding an instrument to start on. I'm starting the mandolin having just taken my ABRSM Grade 8 violin.
I'm getting the message that the easiest way to get a new instrument is online via ebay, but there is no way to tell the quality of an instrument and in my realistic price range, I don't think I will really be able to find anything. I'm going to post a couple of links from ebay and I was wondering if people could tell me what was wrong with them so I know what to look out for, and also know why they are so cheap

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bowl-back-mandolin-butterfly-and-flower-motif-/300577318788?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Sting_Instr uments&hash=item45fbcde784
as an affordable summer project

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stridente-Mandolin-needs-restoration-tlc-/300579386220?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Sting_Instr uments&hash=item45fbed736c
restoration

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ALFREDO-ALBERTINI-MANDOLIN-/190556252034?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Sting_Instr uments&hash=item2c5e09a782

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-GIOVANNI-MEGLIO-NEOPOLITAN-MANDOLIN-1899-/260818976312?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Sting_Instr uments&hash=item3cba05be38
not really affordable to me in the current economic climate

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mandolin-Stridente-Napoli-Antique-/220813133464?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Sting_Instr uments&hash=item33697d0698

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/string-mandolin-/220813631900?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Sting_Instr uments&hash=item336984a19c

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-INLAID-MANDOLIN-/200630772777?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Sting_Instr uments&hash=item2eb686a429

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/vintage-mandolin-Vernon-C-Bruno-Son-Inc-New-York-/150631840390?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23125b7a86
flatback but still very cheap even with postage

[Pete Summers]

Most of those listings are cheap because the instrument needs a lot of work, possibly very expensive work. You might want to visit some music stores in the UK that carry mandolins. Buying from Ebay is a shot in the dark.

[ultimastar]

There aren't any music shops in my area that I know of that do this kind of instrument, around Newcastle, not that I know of at least. I don't really know where to go locally which is a limiting factor.

[Martin Jonas]

Most of these, with one exception, are cheap because they are a rather toxic combination of being poor instruments in poor condition. The vast majority of bowlbacks found in UK attics (and therefore now on Ebay) were massmarket merchandise which were close to unplayable even when new and have not improved through a century or so of neglect. You need to know who the quality makers were in order to cherrypick the gems from the dross -- the really prominent names were then, and are still now, very expensive. However, one tier down in quality there are some real bargains to be had, because there are not many people who are interested in bowlbacks and know how to spot quality.

Out of the ones you have linked, the one standout is clearly the Giovanni de Meglio. De Meglio were one of the best makers, but they are still quite cheap because they were phenomenally successful at the time and sold tens of thousands of mandolins, meaning that the supply is still quite plentyful. As usual, one can't tell whether the instrument is as represented, but the seller seems to know at least something about what he is selling and gives a pretty full description which sounds like the instrument is playable and in mainly good condition. I would have those two splits in the soundboard fixed, though, and I note that the brass saddle insert is missing and will need to be replaced -- you will need to find somebody who knows about vintage mandolin setup, or learn yourself. At the current price it'll be a good deal, but I suspect it will sell at around £250 in the end, which would still be more or less reasonable.

Martin

[ultimastar]

Thanks very much, appreciated. I'm going to keep looking, and will post any other potential finds

[brunello97]

Buying bowlback instruments on ebay is a dicey proposition. There are typically many available, as many Neapolitan style mandolins were imported into the UK during the early 1890s-1900s. Besides the basic cosmetic issues and wear and tear, many of these have been neglected for some time or else stored in less than optimal environments. The key thing to look for is one with a proper neck angle. If buying on ebay you should always request multiple side angle views and for a measurement of the string action at the 12th fret. It can be impossible to tell from the simple photos often included on ebay.

Nothing in your short list jumps out at me as a sure bet. The Stridente mandolins you have in your list are typically decent quality mid-level mandolins, well made with with some nice detailing. Both of these here have necks that are muy sketchioso to my eye as is the Gandolfi (systema de Meglio), which otherwise might be a decent mandolin. I would seek more photos/information on the neck conditions of all of these before bidding. Getting a neck reset would be an expensive proposition, but perhaps worth it on the right mandolin. Lots of mandolins show up regularly on UK ebay so if that is your chosen path then be patient and look things over carefully. Expect to make mistakes in your purchases, but you might also find something of value.

Our friend here at the MC, John (aka Tavy), is in the UK and restores old bowlbacks (as well as scratchbuilding lovely flatbacks.) He has a thing for Stridente mandolins. You could do a search for him here (Tavy is his nom-de-mandoline) and contact him about getting a restored mandolin, ready-to-play. Dave Hynds is another Brit, though ex-pat in France, who regularly repairs and sells Italian mandolins. You can find Dave's site with a simple search. You'll pay a bit more than you might on ebay but both these gentlemen are excellent craftsmen and fairly priced in their work.

You might want to dive into the "Bowlbacks of Note" thread down in the 'Classical' section of the forum and read through a bit of the (lengthy) conversations to get familiar with some of the many builders from Italy, France and Germany. Most folks would steer you towards the big names: Calace, Ceccherini, Vinaccia, etc. but there are many many decent mandolins out there particularly for a self-described beginner: Stridente, DeMureda, Cristofaro, Puglisi, Maratea, Lanfranco.

Good luck with your search! I am sure others will chime in with some valuable (if not contradictory) advice.

Mick

[ultimastar]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ITALIAN-ROSEWOOD-MANDOLIN-signed-IL-GLOBO-/160615753220?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Sting_Instr uments&hash=item256571e604

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-STRIDENTE-MANDOLIN-NAPOLI-c1890-very-pretty-/170669971412?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Sting_Instr uments&hash=item27bcb917d4

these are the only other potentials I could find after the advice

[Bruce Clausen]

Good luck in your quest. As an advanced violin student, you have at least two advantages. One, you'll recognize a good instrument when you see and play it. And two, you're used to a much higher price range; a really good mandolin will often cost much less than a decent bow, and in fact sometimes no more than a few sets of good violin strings.

[ultimastar]

cheers Bruce, looking at <£100 flatbacks as a backup choice, as many shops in the area stock stuff around that range, and as a mandolin beginner I'm not as prepared to put much more money in. Everything I've looked at so far is signifigantly cheaper than my bow!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spruce-Walnut-Beginner-Mandolin/dp/B00474C58K/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt

[brunello97]

The updated Stridente you posted looks promising, but the position of the bridge is suspect. It may be inadvertent, or possibly moved back behind the cant to compensate for ultra high action due to the neck being out of alignment. I would request some side views from the seller.

I hate to be chauvinistic, but if you are shopping for low price flatbacks, you would be much better off looking at 20s-30s US made mandolins. Regal et al pumped out 1000s of these out of Chicago and many are still on the market. The woods they had on hand from the furniture business were typically high grade and the necks were made of stiffer stuff than on the Italian bowlbacks. They have tended to hold up a bit better structurally. Of course they don't have that 'shimmering sound' as our friend Martin has described it, of the Italian bowlbacks, no matter how modest.

Still, you get a lot of instrument for your money and unlike the instrument you posted, they tend to hold their value. When you are ready to trade up or sell you'll probably get what you paid for it back-or more. I just bought a nice Regal flatback for a guitar-playing friend who is interested in the mandolin. $78 got him a lot of mandolin. What is that? 50 lbs.? You could get a nice Lyon and Healy or Weymann bowlback for that kind of dough. It is your money and none of my business, really.

Mick

[Pete Summers]

I don't know if you are familiar with them, or if it will help you in your search for a bowl back, but there is a nice mandolin forum website in the UK here:

http://www.mandolin.org.uk/index.php

Here's a link for that site discussing the problem of finding bowl backs in the UK:

http://www.mandolin.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=429

At least you're not the only one having a problem finding them, but I think there may be some contact info on this page that could help. :)

[allenhopkins]

From my side of "the pond," I don't know much about Pamela's Music, (http://www.pamelasmusic.co.uk/mandolins.htm) but they have several bowl-backs for sale in varying price ranges.

[ultimastar]

May have to check out Pamela's music, some interesting finds there. Thanks for the help everyone!

[Jim Garber]

I'm looking to start playing classical Mandolin but I'm having trouble finding an instrument to start on.

Going back to your original post. Bear in mind that you don't have to have a bowlback to play classical mandolin, Really, any mandolin will do, certainly to start. Figure out your budget and go to a reputable dealer. I don't know where you are in the UK but The Acoustic Music Company (http://www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk/index.php/mandolin-luithers.html)in Brighton is certainly a good bet -- the owner posts on these forums often and is very knowledgeable.

Then, after you get going and decide you like it, you can look for a better instrument that may suit whatever pieces you play. I think there are plenty of suitable instruments at all price ranges out there but it would be better to go to a reputable dealer.

[ultimastar]

Just a little update, ended up buying a V. Miroglio Bowlback that had been properly set up in a little music shop near where I live. It's the only serviceable one that they've had in ages according to the owner of the shop, and it cost me £110 with a soft case

[Beanzy]

Well done. Have you any local mandolin ensembles which you can hook up with to get you going?

[ultimastar]

Not really, though if anyone on the thread knows of any such classical ensembles in the Newcastle area that would be pretty helpful