guitar bridge pins??????

[northfolk]

I want to replace the bridge pins on my guitar; it has plain plastic pins now. What is the best material for bridge pins; ebony, bone, horn, brass, plastic, maple, etc? I imagine that this is a topic of discussion that will have varying points of view; that is what I need: opinions and feedback? Thanks. :mandosmiley:~o)

[multidon]

I had excellent results on my Taylor acoustic replacing the stock pins (ebony) with Stew-Mac Galalith pins. Now, this seems counterintuitive, but the ebony pins weren't as heavy as you might think, plus over time they shrank. The galalith is technically a plastic but there is no comparison with cheap plastic pins. They are some sort of very heavy dense plastic that used to be used for jewelry back in ye olde days and it has to be machined, can't be molded. I instantly got much better sustain and tone with those.

[allenhopkins]

What are your criteria: looks, sound, price, "vibe," ecological impact? If "looks," you can get a wide variety of plastic pins with various dot inlays -- mother-of-pearl, black dot, etc. Stewart MacDonald has a variety of wood and plastic pins. (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Hardware,_parts/Acoustic_guitar:_Bridge_and_endpins/Acoustic_Guitar_Bridge_Pins,_Endpins_and_Strap_But tons.html) The pins' function, other than decor, is simply to hold the strings in the holes, and I'd anticipate the acoustic impact of pins of similar weights would be negligible. Going to something heavier, like brass, would increase the weight of the bridge, and thus it would take more effort to impart the same vibration to it -- perhaps a "deadening" effect.

Some have sold brass bridge pins on the theory that the brass would transmit more vibration than a lighter, perhaps more vibration-absorbent material like wood or plastic. However, the string vibration is basically transmitted through the bridge saddle, not the pins, so the extra mass of metal pins is probably a more relevant factor, than their increased density.

To me it's primarily "looks," since all the pins seem approximately equally functional. Wooden pins have a nice vintage "vibe," and probably work as well as plastic. Tusq, an artificial compound simulating ivory, is used by some builders for nuts and bridge saddles, and you can purchase Tusq bridge pins. I got plastic with MOP dots for my Martin 00-28G/42 "mutt," and they look nice, but I haven't investigated the acoustic properties of different bridge pin materials at all. From my un-expert point of view, I think there's probably little acoustic differential among the wood and plastic options.

[Rob Gerety]

To me it's primarily "looks," since all the pins seem approximately equally functional.
I agree 100%. In my experience this is one of those things that people often spend a lot of money on that has almost no impact on the sound of the instrument but it does get a lot of play on the forums. Why do you want new pins?

[sunburst]

I don't like soft plastic bridge pins because they deform from the string balls pressing into them. I prefer harder materials, but I don't like them too heavy (like brass!). Ebony is one of my favorite materials, for looks and for function. Perhaps some golden ears can hear the difference in a well set up guitar (the pins need to fit) with different pin materials, but I remain very skeptical that the normal player can hear any difference.

[northfolk]

What are your criteria: looks, sound, price, "vibe," ecological impact?
I would say that my main objective is get something that looks better; sound improvement would be an added bonus? The general consensus seems to be that the pins have minimal effect on the sound? I will continue to listen to opinions though? Thanks.

[mandroid]

Yea I got Stew mac's, chose the ones made of rosewood just like the bridge.
no dot, so they blend in.. :whistling:

[Loudloar]

Go on over to the unofficial Martin guitar forum and you'll find lengthy heated discussions over the tonal effect of bridge pins, slotting the bridge vs. slotted pins, etc.

Weight makes a difference, so brass or fossilized ivory can increase sustain. Some players might like that, but most would not. Various plastics or ebony don't differ tremendously in density or weight, so you won't see huge differences.

Multidon gave you the best answer - Stew-Mac Galalith pins. They're a harder plastic very similar to pre-war bridge pins. They won't bend or wear out. The best thing is to use unslotted pins, ream the bridge holes to fit, then slot the bridge pin holes. Again lots of details about this in the Technical Info section on http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com

Steve

[MikeEdgerton]

In almost 50 years of playing I've never been able to hear a difference. When I buy expensive bridge pins I do it because I want to own them, not with any expectation that my guitar will suddenly sound better.

[allenhopkins]

I'd say, in the panoply of "things that you can change about a guitar (or other instrument) that will improve the sound," bridge pins don't rank near the top. And I do disagree a bit about heavier bridge pins increasing sustain. More mass in the body, bridge included, will increase the sustain of an electric guitar, since its sustain is produced by the vibrating string above the pickup. Transmitting sound to the body through the bridge thus decreases electric guitar sustain, since it removes energy from the vibrating string, and transmits it to the body, where it's basically irrelevant. Sustain in an acoustic instrument is basically determined by the vibrations of the instrument's top, and the less mass in bridge and top, and the more efficiently vibration is transmitted from the string to the top, the more top vibration, hence more sustain.

You can get quite a few varieties of good-looking bridge pins; I'm a sucker for MOP dots myself. Second comes black pins with white dots. Don't forget to get an end pin to match.

[sunburst]

...Sustain in an acoustic instrument is basically determined by the vibrations of the instrument's top, and the less mass in bridge and top, and the more efficiently vibration is transmitted from the string to the top, the more top vibration, hence more sustain...

If by "sustain" we mean how long the note sounds, that is dependent on how long the string vibrates. When the top "steals" energy (vibration) from the string, the string, having lost energy, will vibrate for a shorter time, meaning less sustain. The more efficiently vibration is transmitted from the string to the top, the more top vibration, hence more loudness and less sustain.
Unless the efficiency of the whole system in an acoustic instrument is significantly improved along the way, loudness and sustain are mutually exclusive and a balance must be found that suits the player and listener. In general, heavier bridge/top system = more sustain and less loudness. Lighter bridge/top system = more loudness and less sustain.

If we could weigh the entire top of a guitar, including the top itself, bridge, bridge pins, bridge plate, braces, pick guard, finish, and anything else I haven't thought of right now, the percentage of that top's weight made up of the bridge pins is really not that much different whether they are the heaviest or the lightest commonly available bridge pins, so any difference in sustain or loudness will be minimal, perhaps to the point of undetectable to the listener.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I replaced the plastic bridge pins on my Guitar with plain Ebony ones.The plastic pins were,as John Hamlett infers,soft - in fact, very soft. I have to admit that i heard no difference in tone / volume,but i didn't expect to,
Ivan

[foldedpath]

I have two acoustic steel string flattop guitars I care about: a custom Santa Cruz that I ordered 12 years ago, and my "beater" Guild D25M from somewhere in the mid-1970's. I use plastic pins on both, and have never felt a need to use anything else. I'm beyond caring about looks... the Guild is truly a beater, and the Santa Cruz has some weather checking in the finish, and the usual dings and nicks for a guitar that's been played frequently.

The plastic pins are curved from pressure, but that seems to help seat them a little better? I don't know. The main thing I care about is getting that heavy low string seated right. I use heavier gauge down there for Drop-D tuning, and the bent curve in the pin seems to help a little.

I'm a fanatic about acoustic instrument quality and potential upgrades in many other areas, but guitar bridge pins aren't high on my radar screen, as something worth worrying about.
;)

[MikeEdgerton]

When I was commenting on this thread yesterday I was reminded of my early days in the audiophile world and how people claimed to be able to hear the difference in speaker cable brands. Today this (http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/) story lands in my inbox. There are things that one can do to make instruments sound better but some things just don't affect the outcome as much as we'd like them to.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Mike - Tell me about it !!!!. Years back when i'd built my Hi-Fi system up to where it was as good as i could realistically afford,the 'connecting cable boom' came along,with all the accompanying hype. Linear crystal,low Oxygen cables of all sorts were hyped to the skies. Interconnecting cables between components werent any good 'unless' they were 99.999999 % pure, Oxygen free,linear crystal Silver - & so it went.Speaker connecting cables came along that were almost as thick as my arm. I went to many Hi-Fi demo evenings & yes,the systems did sound good,but maybe the use of Mega-buck CD players / record players / amps.,both pre & power & speakers costing upwards of $10,000 a pair had something to do with it. I never heard these cables demo.'d in anything other than complete systems costing as much as a small house would have cost at the time. I remember when one Class "A" power amp.of 10 watts RMS per channel was reviewed. It had linear crystal,Oyxgen free 'antique' Silver wire for the transformer windings - the cost was $35,000 US & that was over 30 years ago. I stopped buying that Hi-Fi mag when the amp. re-appeared as part of the reviewer's own system.
Many times our desire to hear a difference,will convince us that we actually can,even when there is none (or very,very little) - we all know this,& that's why experience over a long period of time can be so important. Those of us who've been around Acoustic instruments for a long time 'get a feel' for subtle changes in our own instruments,but even for us,evaluating differences in 'other people's instruments' is difficult,unless it's quite significant.
Commenting on what the difference might be on somebody else's instrument due to any sort of 'change / modification', without ever hearing what it sounds like to begin with,is always a step in the dark,
Ivan

[Fretbear]

Tony Rice, who is an audiophile (what a surprise) concurs about those hyped cables being just that, and I trust his ears.
I have brass bridge pins in my 40-year-old Yamaki Dread, but just because my brother gave them to me.

[Rob Gerety]

I have brass bridge pins in my 40-year-old Yamaki Dread, but just because my brother gave them to me.

Reminds me of the items my wife brings out on display - and kitchen tools we otherwise never use - when her sister comes over so as not to insult her when the old gifts she has give are no where in sight.:whistling:

[Lee Callicutt]

Just bought a set of bone and boxwood pins and endpins from these guys. Great prices.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/searchresults.aspx?q=bridge%20pins&new=1

[Joe Mendel]

I like the unslotted bone pins Stew-Mac sells, not for anyother reason than they feel good under the palm of my hand and look very nice. Even if I could hear a difference in the sound from different materials, no one else would notice, or care.

[Ray(T)]

When I was commenting on this thread yesterday I was reminded of my early days in the audiophile world and how people claimed to be able to hear the difference in speaker cable brands. Today this (http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/) story lands in my inbox. There are things that one can do to make instruments sound better but some things just don't affect the outcome as much as we'd like them to.

Hugh Ford, in an article in Studio Sound magazine, back in the late 70s, explained in great detail, why and how "audiophile" speaker cables could improve the sound of your equipment. Whilst following his technical explanation was difficult, I remember that his conclusion was that yes, they can make a difference, but that you were unlikely to hear that difference providing you kept your speaker leads to less than a quarter of a mile long.

As for bridge pins, I've had the same set of twisted, warped, bent pins on my Martin D18 since new in 1974 and never had the urge to change them. A luthier friend of mine claims that brass pins increase the top end of a guitar's sound - he fits them as standard as his guitars are built with their use in mind. The theory behind this is that they add weight to the bridge. This can be useful if your bridge has had to be shaved to lower the action instead of having a full neck re-set. If you really want to change/improve the sound of a guitar - change the strings more often!

[Big Joe]

I've seen just about anything and everything you can imagine over the years. I currently have a set of fossil ivory pins in my old Martin but only because they were given to me. I really don't have much of a preference except I do NOT like brass. I have seen them rattle and buzz and they can affect tone by adding a bit of a tinny tone to some guitars. Just like most other things we obsess about in our instruments, bridge pins can occupy a lot of time but actually is not quite as important as many other features. A good bone nut and saddle is about the best thing you can do for your guitar. Keep it setup right and in good shape with good strings on it and then just go play it and have fun!

[MikeEdgerton]

Hugh Ford, in an article in Studio Sound magazine, back in the late 70s, explained in great detail, why and how "audiophile" speaker cables could improve the sound of your equipment. Whilst following his technical explanation was difficult, I remember that his conclusion was that yes, they can make a difference, but that you were unlikely to hear that difference providing you kept your speaker leads to less than a quarter of a mile long....

Almost anything electrical can have cable length limitations so I guess I could buy the fact that there might be a difference in cable runs of more than a quarter mile :cool:

[rf37]

I use ebony pins on my Martin. It is solid mahogony on back and sides. It was very bright with the bone pines so I went with the mahogany. I had a D28 I sold but it sounded better with the bone pins. You will get a lot of opinuated answers so just experiment till you find the right combo to your taste. Anything will be a volume upgrade from plastic. And the good thing is that unless you go with ivory...it is a very low price for a major upgrade. Elderly music usually has some good deals in Michigan. IMO

rf37

[allenhopkins]

I think rf37's got the ticket. Whether it's the "placebo effect," or a subtle difference from switching from plastic to wood to brass to granite or whatever, at least you're paying very small buxx for the experiment. I would definitely question the "major upgrade" description, but agree with the "low price."