Ebay Entertainment for Gibsons

[f5loar]

Sometimes I get bored watching TV and turn to Ebay for entertainment. This one made me laugh so for your entertainment here it is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Gibson-style-Mandolin-copy-Arched-back-Mint-/270768667011?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3f0b11f983

[Jim Garber]

That is entertaining, for sure. I think the seller is using the name Gibson in the generic sense -- like kleenex or frigidaire.

[P.D. Kirby]

"It looks very similar to old Kay mandolins"

As we all know Gibson worked very hard to copy the Kay vibe. I really like the way they nailed I mean screwed that pick guard on the top in vintage Gibson style.

Jim, I think they are also using the term Mandolin in the generic sense:grin:

[AlanN]

Hey, it's my Sekova!

[Jim Garber]

Here is an equally entertaining listing.
Vintage Aria - Gibs0n A-Style - Lawsuit Mandolin NICE! (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Aria-Gibs0n-A-Style-Lawsuit-Mandolin-NICE-/260803877455).

I think this one looks more like the one Tom posted rather than a Gibson.

[nickster60]

The user names are almost as amusing as the auctions . Crazy Al and Slappy, fine examples of the Ebay elite.

[f5loar]

yeap, that's the old Gibson lawsuit Aria. See how many of the Gibson ideas they stole on that one? Just out and out forgery.

[Bill Snyder]

It does have 8 strings and f-holes. What more could you want? :grin:

[evanreilly]

ah, so!!!!!!
Hondo!!!!!!

[journeybear]

I don't know whether to laugh :)) or cry. :crying: Maybe a little of both. :disbelief:

The price is a little steep on the first one. $249.99? It isn't worth a penny more than $249 ... :whistling:

[journeybear]

Well, at least they don't say "Gibson," but "Gibson style." Not sure what that really means, though they do have eight strings, which was indeed Gibson's style ...

Linke 1 - green (http://cgi.ebay.com/Linke-All-Solid-Wood-Custom-Mandolin-Gibson-Style-/370519736675?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5644b28163#ht_500wt_951)

Linke 2 - red (http://cgi.ebay.com/Linke-All-Solid-Wood-Custom-Mandolin-Gibson-Style-/370519736280?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5644b27fd8#ht_500wt_951)

Who knows? (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Gibson-style-Mandolin-copy-Arched-back-Mint-/270782494597?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3f0be4f785#ht_500wt_951)

[Jim Garber]

There are a few Linke mandolins on eBay at the moment. Evidently he runs a small shop and makes some interesting electrics including double necks. He is not in the builders DB, BTW.

[journeybear]

They may well be decent instruments for that price range. I have no problem with someone wanting to make a living through luthiery at any level. Just don't call them "Gibson-style" in order to attract attention or get them listed in such a way that people looking for Gibsons will see them - especially if they are rather obviously NOT Gibson style! :)) Just couldn't help noticing there were three such mixed in with 37 actual Gibsons, sort of a high percentage, and worthy of a little tweaking. ;)

[Bill Snyder]

JB, is this a Gibson style mandolin?
http://www.retrofret.com/images/3994_mandolin/large/3994_01.jpg
I ask because as far as I know Gibson was the first to build a mandolin of this style. The one shown dates from 1917.
I understand that when you see Gibson style the F-5 (or maybe even an A-jr through A-4) comes to mind, but since Gibson started the pancake style is it not also a Gibson style?

[journeybear]

I have been playing mandolin for 43 years - Gibson A, Gibson F-12, Gibson EM-150, Gibson A-00, Gibson A again - and in all that time I have never seen a Gibson pancake before. I would not think this would be possible - either Gibson making them or me not knowing about them - but there it is. This style - whether the Army-Navy or Alrite model - was made for just a few years, starting in 1917 and continuing to 1919 as far as I have been able to determine - and since it was discontinued after such a short time I would think the reason would have been low sales. In any event, neither model shows up in the list (http://home.provide.net/~cfh/gibson8.html#a) I have long used as my main source for model identification. Nor is there an example in Alan Bond's Mandolin Museum (http://home.comcast.net/~ukecat/mandolin/mandos4.html). Nor could I find one in the 1944 A models in the Mandolin Archive (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?a_model).

I don't know what to think about that; it seems to call into question the completeness and authenticity of these resources, even though none claim to be complete. Basing my knowledge of mandolins on incomplete resources seems unwise in retrospect, despite them and their creators being much more in-depth than my experience.

By far most Gibson A models look very little like this, with its flat top and back and round soundhole. So I would not call this "Gibson style," as it is not exemplary. It may be a Gibson style, but it is not the Gibson style. It is not what is commonly considered Gibson style. I would not consider Orville Gibson's early carved mandolins to be "Gibson style" either - Gibson made, to be sure, but the Gibson style was not yet standardized. And most pertinent here and why I objected to the sellers' listings - their instruments do not resemble Gibsons that closely, nor even this one, especially with their colors, and their using the Gibson name to sell their instruments is misleading and possibly deceitful. That is the point I was making, and the existence of Gibson pancake models doesn't really disprove that.

I don't understand why you are bringing up the F-5 style in this context, as that is quite irrelevant to the A style examples shown. Also, if you are insightful enough to understand how my mind works, you are wasting your time here and should set yourself up as a clairvoyant. Don't sell yourself short; there is a lot of money to made that way. And can you substantiate your claim that Gibson started the pancake style?

So yes, since it was made by Gibson, this is a Gibson style mandolin, albeit unusual. Those others - not so much. Different body shapes, finishes, headstocks.

[almeriastrings]

GiVson rules...

www.givson.com

Even more entertaining...

[Bill Snyder]

....And can you substantiate your claim that Gibson started the pancake style?....

My claim? I am not making any such claim I just know of no earlier examples of the pancake style mandolins than Gibson's.


...Also, if you are insightful enough to understand how my mind works, you are wasting your time here and should set yourself up as a clairvoyant. ...

Poor wording on my part I suppose. Instead of typing when YOU see Gibson style I should have typed when people see Gibson style or perhaps when mandolin players see...


...So yes, since it was made by Gibson, this is a Gibson style mandolin, albeit unusual. Those others - not so much. Different body shapes, finishes, headstocks....

We will have to disagree about this because I think the Linke mandolins you linked to have a strong resemblance to the old Gibson Alrite and Army/Navy mandolins.

FWIW Mr. Gibson, I did not intend for you to take my post as an attack on you and I am sorry if it came across that way. I just thought it was relevant to the discussion to point out the similarity (at least as I perceive it) of the Linke mandolins to the Gibson pancake style mandolins.

[journeybear]

Well, Bill, your post did indeed come across as a bit of a personal attack, or at least I felt you were a bit snide toward me, and that was what I took issue with. Perhaps I overreacted - sometimes I think I do, and whether or not I feel justified it ends up being a part of the permanent record here, and thus can become regrettable. If you had pointed out the Gibson pancake model with some levity I probably would have responded in kind, and this interchange would not have taken the turn it did. I guess what surprised me was that I recall your contributions to threads to be among the more level-headed by and large. It seemed like I was the recipient of a Gotcha! and I felt singled out, and assumed a defensive position. My objection concerning your position on the origin of the pancake model arises from your moving from a statement of belief to a statement of fact without offering evidence, which is poor argument construction. I mean, I too have seen no earlier ones, but I am not ready to say Gibson started them. (Indeed, I have always assumed pancakes started much later, and being shown a 1917 model was disorienting.) I don't know enough about them to say anything definitive on the subject. Obviously. ;)

I feel there was some verbal sniping from both of us, the kind I don't like to see here, so I would like to accept your apology and offer mine, and move on.

Presented differently, I would have been amused to have learned what an Army-Navy model looks like. I have read the term now and then, but never have taken the time to look it up before. Had I done so, I would have been pretty surprised. (Also, you wouldn't have said what you said - heck, I might never would have posted in the first place - all right, moving on! :) ) I still find it quite the aberration from the typical Gibson style. And its short-lived production run does seem to bear out its lack of popularity. I assume this was a way Gibson showed some support for the doughboys, making a really inexpensive model for them to take overseas and not worry too much about damaging. I wonder why this stye wasn't reintroduced during WWII. Perhaps these were less genteel times. Also trench warfare was no longer in vogue and troop movements were much faster. Mandolins would have helped while away the time during long sieges, but not have been useful in more mobile campaigns. Then again, if they had been available in the Pacific theater, soldiers might have been less likely to have been intrigued by ukuleles, and who can tell how that would have affected musical history?

Anyway, thank you for bringing this to my attention. Though surely others knew about these instruments, you were the one to take the time to, um, enlighten me. And for that, I am grateful. I learn stuff around here every day, in all kinds of ways. I still think it's wrong for sellers on ebay and CL etc to use the term "Gibson style" to get their ads listed with real Gibsons. I mean, when I use "Gibson" in my search parameters I am trying to be selective, and their efforts undermine mine. And I still think "Gibson style" means something to most people other than what they have to offer. I wish the people at Linke all the best, and to a lesser extent, the mfr from Korea (or wherever), in their endeavors, but I wish they and their ilk would leave Gibson out of it. My 2-1/2¢ worth. ;)

[Schlegel]

At least the one guy is making approximately a style Gibson did at one time make. What tees me off is the sellers who add "not a Gibson or Martin" to the description of obvious non-Gibsons and non- Martins so they'll show up when you search for those makers.

[Bill Snyder]

I agree that there is something wrong with using Gibson's name in the listing of your mandolin if it is not one. I thought that there were even rules in place on ebay to prevent this. Isn't that why sellers include a set of Gibson or Marting strings with the purchase of their instrument, to get around the listing requirements.

[journeybear]

What tees me off is the sellers who add "not a Gibson or Martin" to the description of obvious non-Gibsons and non- Martins so they'll show up when you search for those makers.

Oh, lawdy! It crossed my mind that someone could do just that, but didn't mention it because it seemed preposterous. People really do that? I yi yi! I certainly would hope there are rules against this. I get the impression ebay is not all that strict about enforcing them, though, and stuff like this gets little attention.

Including name brand strings, putting a brand name in quotes, saying "Gibson-like" or "Gibson-style" or "Gibson-esque" or "Gibson-inspired" or some similar construction - these are all ways to get around rules like that. I guess they don't fit the definition of fraud closely enough for the powers that be at ebay to take notice or action. Otherwise we wouldn't see listings like this. Intent is probably difficult to prove, and intent is a critical consideration in fraud cases.

[Dobe]

Fibson. Now that seems a little more honest:

http://denver.craigslist.org/msg/2498319281.html

Nice 'PRO' neck repair !!

Reminds me of my Banjo teachers custom built neck: it's a ' The Banjo ' model !

:))

[f5loar]

I like it when they add "with Gibson strings" so it shows up in the search. It really does not help it sell any better. If you are searching for a Gibson you are not likely to buy something "not a Gibson" or "with Gibson strings".

[Pete Summers]

Those Ebay postings of "Gibson style," "Gibson" copy, not a "Gibson," etc., while perhaps a nuisance to Ebay searchers, really just go to show that Gibson mandolins are the standard by which all other makers are measured. Not a bad position for Gibson to be in.

About every violin ad (or maker) lists their cheap fiddle copies as a "Stradivarius," most without even the disclaimer "copy." In fact, most trade fiddles have a Strad like label in Latin pasted inside, which almost never mentions it's a copy. Is that fraud? Some might say it is, but it's just a fact of life in the violin world because Stradivari is considered such a standard of excellence (whether deservedly or not) that fiddle makers feel compelled to associate their work with his name.

I doubt that anyone savvy enough to recognize the Gibson name in mandolins would be much fooled by those Ebay ads. Quite the contrary though, when it comes to fiddles. There are thousands of people every year traipsing into their local violin shop thinking that old fiddle left in Grandpa's attic is the genuine article because, after all, the label says so.

It's just the price of fame and success (and IMO, due at least in part to antique instrument dealer's hype).

:mandosmiley:

[allenhopkins]

...About every violin ad (or maker) lists their cheap fiddle copies as a "Stradivarius," most without even the disclaimer "copy." In fact, most trade fiddles have a Strad like label in Latin pasted inside, which almost never mentions it's a copy. Is that fraud? Some might say it is, but it's just a fact of life in the violin world because Stradivari is considered such a standard of excellence (whether deservedly or not) that fiddle makers feel compelled to associate their work with his name...I doubt that anyone savvy enough to recognize the Gibson name in mandolins would be much fooled by those Ebay ads....It's just the price of fame and success...

Guess the difference is that Antonio S isn't still in business making violins, and watching his name being stuck on a slew of knock-offs that are completely inferior to to his own work. Gibson apparently doesn't think they're being honored, or that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"; they've sued for trademark infringement for as minor a detail as the shape of a truss rod cover, and went after Elderly Instruments for listing a banjo as a "Gibson copy" (which apparently it was) since it was not a Gibson product.

We the mandolin cognoscenti say that sticking a "Gibson" decal on the headstock of a $79 Asian plywood clunker "doesn't fool anybody," but I bet it does, or the eBay fraudsters wouldn't keep doing it. Some Cafe members have, laudably, taken on the task of notifying the auction site and the sellers when an obviously mis-labeled mandolin is advertised, but that won't stem the tide of swindles. And if there are that many mandolins being fraudulently advertised, how many more cases must there be, in the hugely larger and more lucrative guitar market?

You can buy all the components of a Fender Strat, perfectly legitimately, from several suppliers, put it together, scrounge up a "Fender" decal, and represent it as the real thing. There are no doubt thousands of fake solid-body electrics floating around, being bought and sold all the time, without either seller or buyer having a clue.

Though I'm far from a Gibson loyalist, I support the company wholeheartedly for going after counterfeiters and mis-labelers, and I am not at all accepting of those eBay sellers who throw the word "Gibson" somewhere into their descriptions to catch the unsophisticated searcher. Same with "Martin strings" or "Martin pick" on an El Cheapo flat-top. Dishonest, IMHO.

[delsbrother]

You guys are so MEAN! It's been pointed out to me that just because you don't agree with what how someone markets something, that doesn't mean you should undermine their sales just for the sake of argument! I mean, that usually NEVER happens on this board, right?

Let's put our personal beliefs aside and strive to remain 100% supportive, all of the time. OK? :)

[Pete Summers]

Though I'm far from a Gibson loyalist, I support the company wholeheartedly for going after counterfeiters and mis-labelers, and I am not at all accepting of those eBay sellers who throw the word "Gibson" somewhere into their descriptions to catch the unsophisticated searcher. Same with "Martin strings" or "Martin pick" on an El Cheapo flat-top. Dishonest, IMHO.

I get your point. But none of the above mentioned ads counterfeited a Gibson label and stuck it on their mandolin. That would be fraud, pure and simple, and Gibson would have every right to sue.

However, those sellers just mentioned the Gibson brand with no intent to claim their instruments were Gibsons, but merely to cash in on that name, much as the fiddle makers do with Stradivari, and to get into the search listings. Not very noble, perhaps, but whether we accept it or not, advertisers are going to continue to do it because they can.

[allenhopkins]

Well, Gibson apparently went after Elderly Instruments for calling an advertised banjo a "Gibson copy":

In June 2005, Gibson Guitar Corporation filed a cease and desist order and an accompanying lawsuit against Elderly Instruments. The complaint alleged that Elderly was selling a banjo on its web site marketed as a "Gibson copy" and that the phrase constituted a trademark infringement. Despite Elderly's claim of having addressed the issue by changing the phrase first to "Famous Maker Copy" and then to "Classic Bluegrass Banjo Copy," Gibson persisted with the complaint and asked for unspecified damages.[14] Gibson later issued a press release stating that the lawsuit had been settled.[15]
-- from Wikipedia

So in Gibson's eyes, linking an instrument to the "Gibson" trademark, when it's not a Gibson, is "trademark infringement." And "cashing in on [the Gibson] name," without Gibson's permission, is exactly what the company's trying to prevent.

Now, Gibson isn't going to sue every yahoo who sells an instrument on eBay and calls it "Gibson-type," or some such. Wouldn't make sense to go after a bunch of private sellers. Gibson might have a few choice words for eBay itself, and try to get the site to censor instrument descriptions to avoid trademark issues.

There's this adjacent thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?75166-Is-this-really-a-Gibson) discussing an eBay mandolin that may or may not be a Gibson; it's not marked as such, but may be an "employee mandolin," or -- well, read the thread for the discussion. No lawsuit basis there, if the seller genuinely believes it's some kind of "unmarked Gibson," and there are clear design and "vintage" similarities.

Saying "with Gibson strings" or "Gibson pick," in order to get included in "Gibson mandolin" eBay searches, is sleazy but not illegal (as long as the seller's really including those items). Labeling your non-Gibson "Gibson" clearly is illegal. Saying an instrument is a "Gibson type" or "Gibson copy" is borderline; don't like it, but it may squeak through. However, Gibson Co. itself considers using language like that as copyright infringement, as their suit against Elderly shows.

[Mike Romkey]

Hey, it's that 1922 Loar Gibson A2z snakehead what was for sale on Craigslist!

[Mo Soar]

Love the "Givson" site - especially the part where the guitars and "mandolines" are made out of "Pyne" and "Toon wood". Yes, I am sure you used "toon wood". Sort of like the joke I read a bit back about Chinese steel being made of iron filings and Velveeta.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Just came across this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Early-1900s-Gibson-F-mandolin-/250860684913

A three-point F style with f holes and an Orville oval label supposedly, plus a pineapple tail piece. I honestly don't know what to make of it.....

[journeybear]

I think toon wood was used exclusively in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit." And that couldn't be Chinese steel, with Velveeta. Chinese cuisine doesn't use much dairy, if at all. That would have to be American steel. :whistling:

[allenhopkins]

...A three-point F style with f holes and an Orville oval label supposedly, plus a pineapple tail piece. I honestly don't know what to make of it.....

Current thread about the "retopped F-2" or whatevertheheck it is... (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?75455-Retopped-Gibson-3-point-on-eBay)

[Jim Garber]

Just came across this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Early-1900s-Gibson-F-mandolin-/250860684913

A three-point F style with f holes and an Orville oval label supposedly, plus a pineapple tail piece. I honestly don't know what to make of it.....

Maybe that repair was a complete retopping. It looks like the rest could be original.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Current thread about the "retopped F-2" or whatevertheheck it is... (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?75455-Retopped-Gibson-3-point-on-eBay)

Thanks for pointing out the thread Allen. Fascinating one indeed.

[Ben Milne]

It just goes on and on... (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-Carved-Top-Gibson-F5-Style-Mandolin-Solid-Quilted-Maple-MOP-Vine-Inlay-/140639471135?pt=AU_Musical_Instruments_Instruments&hash=item20bec4061f)

I messaged the guy, and the reply was basically yep, thanks, noted.
Looks to have received a bid now. Feel free to report, I didn't bother as I figured a message was as far as I wanted to get involved.

[almeriastrings]

Looks like an Antonio Tsai wall hanger... talk about 'death by bling'....

[allenhopkins]

What bugs me (just a little bit) is that an awful lot of spruce and figured maple, as well as mother-of-pearl shell, is going into these "Liberace specials," when real luthiers could possibly use the wood to produce real mandolins...

Just grouchy, sorry.

[multidon]

I should have posted this- it was several weeks ago and no longer up- but the eBay add along these lines that made me laugh hardest had the heading "Gibson case with hand carved mandolin inside!".

[Gary Hedrick]

My great frustration with all of these crap instruments on Ebay using the Gibson name is that some poor fool is biting on this line of hooha......These folks have to be selling some of these or else they wouldn't keep pushing forward with the line of listing....


Yes Tom it's entertainment and I get a certain perverted sense of enjoyment out of looking at how many ways a fool can be separated from his money......but Lordy it shore is a stretch of reality at times.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Just saw this one on the bay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-8-String-Mandolin-A-5-/180792930271

It's a Chumley special....

[f5loar]

I had just notified the seller that he has a Chumlee special at his pawn shop and might want to watch that eposide to see why it is a fake. I then told him to go to gibson.com and look under the 2nd page of the mandolins and see what a real Gibson A5 looks like for a direct comparsion to his and then I reported it ebay's fraud dept. We will see how long it last this time.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

I just got a response from the seller acknowledging my pointing out that it's a knock-off, and he even took down the listing. Not bad

[P.D. Kirby]

I guess his Chumlee is either unemployed or taking lessons on a fake Gibson A.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

A new one just popped up on the Bay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220946476504#ht_500wt_1212

Already sent a msg to the seller. I'll wait a day before reporting them to eBay

[Kip Carter]

Ad has been pulled.
Kip...

[f5loar]

Didn't last long. Seller already pulled it before ebay got involved. No doubt another pawn shop owner that got suckered into buying what he thought was a real Gibson relying on the logo and serial no. label.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Yeah I came back from lunch and already got a reply from the seller saying he'd thought it was a fake and would pull it.