View Full Version : what's a good setup?
Received my new Kentucky KM-1000 yesterday. Beautiful looking and sounding instrument. It had a "professional" setup by a luthier. Mando plays well, but it does take slightly more muscle to play it cleanly than my Godin A-8 for example.
Made me wonder how do you know a setup is good or not? And there is a slight buzz on the E A D strings when I strike them open, is that too low of action?
Rodney Riley
May-27-2011, 10:50am
Does it buzz when you fret chords?
no, just seems to buzz on open strings. And it's slight, wondering if that's a case where you just turn the screw and raise the bridge a hair. I'm no luthier, don't want to get myself into trouble here.
Jill McAuley
May-27-2011, 11:08am
Did the Godin have a flat or radius fretboard? I prefer radius fretboards and for me it feels like harder work to play a mandolin with a flat board on it.
Cheers,
Jill
draino
May-27-2011, 11:20am
I would talk to the luthier before touching anything. Was the mandolin shipped after setup? Was the setup done in a part of the country with a distinctly different climate than yours? Sounds like a very slight truss rod tweak is the best way to cure the buzz, but again, talk to the luthier first. Raising the bridge may also cure it -- but will make your action unecessarily high.
Regarding playability of Godin vs. Kentucky, do they both have the same strings (or at least same gauge)? If so, is the action at the twelth fret, and the action at the first fret of each one similar? If so . . . then you're into the realm of flat vs. radiused fretboard, bigger vs. smaller frets, etc. etc., which setup can't change.
Darren Bailey
May-27-2011, 11:24am
My suggestion would be to try identify where the buzzing is coming from. Remove the tail end cover - does that prevent it? Try damping the strings behind the bridge - just locate, if you can where the vibration is. My Kentucky used to buzz a little with the cover in place but I regularly removed it and it solved the problem. I've now got some gromets stuck between the strings behind the bridge and that has helped enormously. I wouldn't get too concerned too soon, it's often a very simple thing to eliminate and doesn't mean you necessarily have a bad instrument. I'm surprised the "professional" set up didn't fix it though. Any chance you could ask the luthier to look at it again or at least advise you? Hope it works out.
Schlegel
May-27-2011, 11:33am
Locating the buzz is first. I've had buzzes comes from above the nut, or below the bridge, for example, and those had nothing to do with setup.
Rodney Riley
May-27-2011, 11:35am
I would check for something loose(as Darren said the tail cover) or maybe see how close the strings are to the first fret. (nut might be cut too deep). Grommets or a piece of leather laced through the strings behind the bridge would probably be something to do "just because". That would stop some rattles and "overtones" or whatever the noise is called from the strings back there. :)
250sc
May-27-2011, 11:49am
"I would talk to the luthier before touching anything."
IMO I don't agree with this statement. Personally, I think you should learn to make adjustments to your own instruments. The more skill and knowledge you have the better. This isn't rocket science.
draino
May-27-2011, 11:56am
I agree to an extent . . . yes, learn how to do your own setup. But if you're going to learn by just turning knobs and seeing what happens -- do it on a back-up instrument, not your new instrument. Additionally, he just paid a luthier to setup his instrument and its buzzing...rather than complaining to anonymous folks on the internet, a call to the person that did the setup seems a much wiser solution.
"I would talk to the luthier before touching anything."
IMO I don't agree with this statement. Personally, I think you should learn to make adjustments to your own instruments. The more skill and knowledge you have the better. This isn't rocket science.
so back to one of my original questions, how do you know if you got a good setup or not (string buzz aside). The instrument was shipped so I can't exactly go back and have them look at it again. In fact, maybe it has a great setup now. It just got me thinking, how is one supposed to know if it's good or could be better? I guess there is no way to know unless you go to another luthier and have them look at it. What started all of this was I played a KM-1000 a month ago and this one plays a little different than what I remember. Probably the case mando to mando though, no two are alike.
draino
May-27-2011, 12:27pm
so back to one of my original questions, how do you know if you got a good setup or not (string buzz aside). The instrument was shipped so I can't exactly go back and have them look at it again. In fact, maybe it has a great setup now. It just got me thinking, how is one supposed to know if it's good or could be better? I guess there is no way to know unless you go to another luthier and have them look at it. What started all of this was I played a KM-1000 a month ago and this one plays a little different than what I remember. Probably the case mando to mando though, no two are alike.
Its true that no two mandolins are alike, however, it should be easily possible to make two Kentucky KM-1000s play the same. To do that, you need to figure out what it was that you like about a set-up -- what strings do you like, what kind of action do you like, etc. While its possible to definitely say that certain setups are bad (frets aren't level, action is far outside of any normal range, intonation is off, hardware is lose, etc.), saying which reasonable setup is better than another reasonable setup is simply up to player preference.
Have you tried frets.com?
Aside from that, if it only buzzes when played open, some would suggest to take a real hard look at how deep the string slots in the nut are cut relative to the height of the first fret. See if the slots are too deep, or the first fret is too tall, or a combination of both. There are easy ways to check these.
swain
Frets.com is a great place to start understanding how to figure where the problem is and then what is required to fix it.
You asked about "how do you know a setup is good or not?" Without knowing how the musician plays (heavy right hand? Light touch? Never plays above the fifth fret or needs full access to the whole fingerboard?....) a luthier can only give you a basic setup. It might be perfect for one player but not for the next.
From your discription of only buzzing when played open I'd guess the nut slots are too deep but it could be the cover plate on the tailpiece or a high fret too. Removeing the cover plate and checking the frets with a straight edge can prove or disprove either hypothisis. Try fretting the instrument on the third fret and check the strings clearance above the first fret. Is it sitting on the first fret or just above it? (it should be just a tad (technical term) above the first fret not sitting on it)
Again, check out Frets.com and do a bit of troubleshooting.
sunburst
May-27-2011, 2:04pm
so back to one of my original questions, how do you know if you got a good setup or not (string buzz aside).
We can't put string buzz aside, because if you have it you don't have a good set up. Also, Schlegel, if strings buzz above the nut or below the bridge you don't have a good set up (hope it wasn't something I set up!).
When you have a good set up, action is comfortably low with no buzzing under normal circumstances (bashing the strings causes buzzing even with a good set up), frets are level and smooth, tuning is easy and precise because the nut slots don't bind, the bridge fits the top well, all fasteners and hardware are snug and rattle free, fingerboard relief is correctly adjusted (if adjustable), that sort of thing.
With the proper knowledge and tools, nearly anyone can do a good set up, but we have to understand various relationships before we can do good set up work. Relationships like; string height at the nut and string height at the bridge, fingerboard relief and action height, bridge height and action height, action height and intonation, and so forth. Once we understand how it all works together, then we can learn how to adjust all of it so it works together optimally.
Big Joe
May-27-2011, 3:42pm
A good setup by a luthier gives a lot of room for explanation. When was it done, where was it done, and to whose specs? If the setup was done but done months ago it may just need a bit of tweaking. If you are in a radically different area of the country it may need a bit of tweaking. If you assume it is the nut, it could be, but it could also need a truss rod adjustment. If there is a slight amount of backbow it will buzz open as well as if the nut is too low. I would suggest having it looked over by a luthier just to see. Many will not charge just to check it out. I don't and will often make minor tweaks at no charge. There are a lot of things that can cause a buzz and even so with open strings only. It could even be the strings themselves. Like I said, lots of possibilities and you can mess up the instrument even more by messing with it. There could easily be a simple solution that can be made complicated by messing with it too much.
dcoventry
May-27-2011, 3:45pm
A bad set up is a 7-10 split.....
Schlegel
May-27-2011, 5:33pm
We can't put string buzz aside, because if you have it you don't have a good set up. Also, Schlegel, if strings buzz above the nut or below the bridge you don't have a good set up (hope it wasn't something I set up!).
When you have a good set up, action is comfortably low with no buzzing under normal circumstances (bashing the strings causes buzzing even with a good set up), frets are level and smooth, tuning is easy and precise because the nut slots don't bind, the bridge fits the top well, all fasteners and hardware are snug and rattle free, fingerboard relief is correctly adjusted (if adjustable), that sort of thing.
With the proper knowledge and tools, nearly anyone can do a good set up, but we have to understand various relationships before we can do good set up work. Relationships like; string height at the nut and string height at the bridge, fingerboard relief and action height, bridge height and action height, action height and intonation, and so forth. Once we understand how it all works together, then we can learn how to adjust all of it so it works together optimally.
No, it wasn't anything you did, just some ebay antiques. My impression is that you're more thorough than many, but I'll happily amend my statement to "just because there's a buzz may, but doesn't necessarily, mean there's anything wrong with the nut or bridge." Some of the tiniest things can make surprisingly loud sounds. I spent an hour chasing an open A buzz on a bowlback once only to find in the end there was a single tuner screw slightly loose in the enclosed tuners under a coverplate.
If I only had one mandolin, I'd just pay to have it done. I have done when it just seemed like it was going to be too much for me. However, I have a bit of the collector's bug, so....needs must, etc. I've done 6 or 8 at this point, and I can tell you I'm only just now feeling like I'm really doing an OK job. I do feel the tools have paid for themselves at this point. The downside is I proudly told a friend. "That's great!" says the friend. "Can you fix my guitar for me?"
sunburst
May-27-2011, 6:26pm
..."That's great!" says the friend. "Can you fix my guitar for me?"
That's how it starts, careful!
Willie Poole
May-27-2011, 7:35pm
From the OP`s post I gather he had it set up and then it was shipped to him, if so was it shipped with the string tension loose? If so maybe the bridge just needs to be checked to see if it is seated flush on the top....
Spend a little time and maybe a few dollars and have it checked by a well known luthier that is in your area....You will have plenty of time to tinker with it while you play it through the years, a new mandolin should be to your likeing or back it goes..
Willie
TheMandoShop
May-27-2011, 7:43pm
Regarding the buzz, could be the nut slots are cut too deep. Could be the first fret is high. Could be the truss rod adjustment is causing a back bow in the neck. Making it easy to play is a combination of appropriately adjusting the frets, nut, neck and bridge. Taking it to someone with experience will help you to solve these problems more quickly.
dcoventry
May-27-2011, 11:18pm
What's a good set up? Well.....
"Ok, so a guy walks into a bar and says....". That's a good set up.:grin: