Brandt mandolin details

[DougC]

Last night a friend gave me an old Brandt mandolin.

The labels are in good shape and it seems to be made after 1904 because the tailpiece is stamped May 15 - 04. The label on the neck end block says Style GX and number 5563. It is obviously made by Brandt in Chicago according to the label but I know very little about this kind of mandolin. Is it a Neopolitian (sp.)? And the head stock scroll - common or rare? I believe the back is walnut. Also it has a very cool leather case where the bottom hinges away in order to insert the instrument in an upright fashion.
Can't wait to learn more about this instrument. String length? Is it a typical size?
Who was Brandt?
Thanks.http://www.juditheisner.com/Brandt mandolin label.jpghttp://www.juditheisner.com/Brandt mandolin wood background.jpg

[Ed Goist]

Hi Doug:

I believe your Brandt is a "Style 3". Also, it looks to be in really good shape. Congratulations!

I own a John Brandt "Style 2" Bowlback Mandolin built by Brandt c. 1900 (see the link in my signature for several pics). Here is some information on Brandt & his mandolins:

* Brandt was a well respected early period Chicago mandolin maker.
* The most readily available recommended strings are the GHS A240 phosphor bronze Classical XL 9-13-20-32
* The scale length is 13" (slightly shorted than a modern mandolin, and the same as a violin). When I first started playing the Brandt I would over-reach on stretches because of the shorter scale, but it was easy to adjust.

Here is some information on the Tonewoods and Materials used on Brandt mandolins (from Eldred Auctioneers/Appraisers):
* Brazilian Rosewood back ribs.
* Maple violin-style peg head and neck.
* Bone nut and tuning buttons.
* American Spruce (type varies, source is almost certainly Michigan) top.
* Neck: Maple
* Fretboard: Brazilian Ebony

About Brandt:
John Brandt was an early Period Chicago mandolin maker who made mandolins in the German style. Almost all Brandt mandolins were retailed through the Rudolph Wurlitzer Co. stores.

(from Mandolin Cafe member Eugene):
* Ca. 1900 virtuoso/composer Seth Weeks endorsed Brandt.
* Brandts are well-made enough and just obscure enough to be mighty cool
* I have never seen a Brandt catalog; I don't know if there are any.
* I don't know anything about Brandt's models other than personal observations of a handful of pieces.
* They are pretty obscure.
* I have seen them labeled style 1 (really ugly and graceless), style 1a (plain), style 2 (I'm guessing this is mine), style 3 (fancier fingerboard but still no scratchplate inlay)...as a matter of fact, I've never seen one with scratchplate inlays), and the outrageously fancy (with 40+ ribs, solid pearl fingerboards, and highly figured maple necks).
* I've also seen Brandt mandolins and mandolas in the shape of violins/violas with oval holes and a cutaway in the upper bout.
* Now everybody knows as much about John Brandt's company as I do."
* One more thing about these ultra-weird (but still very classy) and narrow scrolled heads. I would ordinarily wind the one e and one g closest to the nut with the string coming off the post to the outside of the head. This gives a better angle through the nut slot and makes for less rubbing of string on string when tuning. "
* (More from Eugene): "Brandt was my favorite obscure Chicago mandolin maker. Brandt mandolins were endorsed by golden-era virtuoso Seth Weeks. Mike Holmes speculates that they may have been built by the Lyon & Healy facilities, but I haven't seen any good evidence for that other than the presence of both in Chicago and similar soundbox profiles; their decorative styles were completely different. All the Brandts I've seen except two have a lovely full violin scroll on the headstock. Does yours? Of the exceptions, one was dated (I believe) 1898 and had a typical headstock; the other was labeled "style 1" and had a blocky partial scroll (like an Embergher without the grace)."

Rudolph Wurlitzer Co. brochure (c. 1900) has a photo of the Ideal Mandolin Club of Chicago, C. D. Smith, Director, which was used as an advertisement for Brandt mandolins. You can see it here (http://www.harpguitars.net/iconography/mayflower_brandt_cat-rich_myers.jpg).

Finally, here is a video I made on my Brandt shortly after Max Girouard did some excellent refurbishing and set-up work on her:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPvxbJzdgJ8

[DougC]

Wow, thanks Ed.

I need to re-read this post but for now I'm wondering if I can put some Jazz Mando JM 11's on it? 11 15 24 33. AND the peg posts are wound on the 'outside' on the E and G strings. So I agree that the peg head leaves no room for the usual configuration. Anyone else have a suggestion for winding these strings?


Yes it is a nice scroll on this one but it really looks like walnut to me on the back. I'll take another picture. Also the neck and peg head has black paint. There is a little work needed on a couple of pieces on the back but it looks solid enough to replace the strings and play it a little.

[Ed Goist]

Hi Doug:

No problem. Again, congratulations on your Brandt! It's a beauty.

FYI - EVERYONE who was 'in the know' recommended I use the lightest gauge strings I could find. I'm very pleased with how the GHS extra-lights play and sound. I'll be curious to see what the bowlback experts say about using the JazzMando strings.

Max wound my strings in the standard fashion, and I've had no problem with them (though it is a tight fit on the ends!). FYI, the tuners on mine (which are surprisingly good) are reverse gear tuners. So, if yours are also reverse gear, and you decide to thread the outside pegs backwards, those will work like regular gear tuners! :)

You may be right about the scroll being walnut. I got my info on this second hand. Also, like yours, mine is clearly painted darker as well.

I hope you get your Brandt up and running, and that it performs well for you.

I love the unique voice of mine (though I can't play it much because of its flat board).

[Schlegel]

Flatwound strings have higher tensions than their sizes would suggest if comparing to round wound. It's more tension than I would put on an antique. If you really want smooth strings, use the light Fisoma or Thomastik sets. But those are rather pricey compared to the GHS set.

[DougC]

Thanks for the info on string tension. I'll order some light strings tonight. The tuners esp. the A string is a little funky. Is there a way to adjust the tension or oil the gears? Ed the gears do seem weird. Maybe they are reverse gears.
Also your Brandt sounds a lot like mine. I love the sound.

And does anyone have a way to date the instrument according to it's model number? Are there other mandolins with scroll head stocks?

I'm pretty sure that the bowl back is Walnut. The neck and headstock seem to be maple or mahogany I'll take a picture soon.

[Schlegel]

The scroll is still seen on high-end Calace bowlbacks to this day. as far as tuners go, if they are difficult, don't force them... cut the strings off, remove the tuning machines from the mandolin so you can get to the gears, and lube them with teflon dry lube from a bike shop. Put a drop on the gears and gently work the tuners back and forth and they'll get easier. If you force dirty corroded bass gears you can break them, but even badly frozen ones can be cleaned and made usable. Check this site:http://www.lutherie.net/tuner.maintenance.html

[DougC]

Ahh, I would never force something on an old instrument. (I repair violins...) These gears are quite usable, I just wondered about opening the enclosure to get at the gears.
Also the nut slots are larger than the old strings currently on the instrument. I'm guessing that strings 100 years ago were much thicker. The nut is bone and looks to be original like same bone on the tuning buttons.

[8ch(pl)]

I wouldn't bet on the strings then being thicker. it is generally recommended to go with a set that runs from .009 to about .030 or .032. A lot of bowlbacks have been ruined by putting too much string tension on the instrument.

[Schlegel]

Klusons have a little hole to drop lube through, but most versions of enclosed tuners you'll have to remove either a cover or the whole mechanism to get at them. The front mounted sorts usually are all in one piece and have to be removed from the instrument.

[keef]

(More from Eugene): "Brandt was my favorite obscure Chicago mandolin maker. Brandt mandolins were endorsed by golden-era virtuoso Seth Weeks. Mike Holmes speculates that they may have been built by the Lyon & Healy facilities, but I haven't seen any good evidence for that other than the presence of both in Chicago and similar soundbox profiles; their decorative styles were completely different.

In a 1907 biography of Patrick J. Healy various Chicago area musical instrument manufacturing or trading companies are listed that had been acquired by Lyon & Healy. Among those is Brandt. He got a patent for the top loading tuners as seen on the mandolin pictured in this thread in 1898 - the same tuner arrangement and patent that was used by Walter Kirk in his design of the Lyon & Healy Style A mandolin. He also incorporated the headstock scroll of Brandt in the Style A design.

Another 1905 patent for a mandolin with a violin-shaped body states Brandt as inventor, and Lyon & Healy as assignee. That would mean that the Brandt company was acquired somewhere between 1898 and 1905. I don't know if the Brandt mandolins were made at the L&H factory after the takeover though.

[DougC]

http://www.juditheisner.com/Brandt Mandolin head stock.jpg

Here is a photo of the tuning peg arrangement. Note that both the G and e courses are on the 'outside'.

My guess is that this mandolin was made 1904 or 05.

[Ed Goist]

...snip...
Another 1905 patent for a mandolin with a violin-shaped body states Brandt as inventor, and Lyon & Healy as assignee. That would mean that the Brandt company was acquired somewhere between 1898 and 1905. I don't know if the Brandt mandolins were made at the L&H factory after the takeover though.

For those interested below is the actual patent submission for John Brandt's 1905 violin-shaped mandolin. I wonder why this design idea has been so neglected? Seems a natural for classical music mandolin applications.

72656

[DougC]

My wife says she has a friend that has one of these mandolin/violins! I cant' believe it. I'm gonna find her and take a picture for you.

[Steve H.]

Not sure if anyone is still following this thread, but I also came by a John Brandt mandolin through my grandfather's estate. It has a patent date of August 23, 98 stamped at the base of the tuner and is a Style G, No. 8078. There may be another number or letter slightly elevated and just to the right of the "G" but I can't make it out. It seems to be in pretty good shape and has a beautiful tone.

Attachments

[Ed Goist]

Lookin' great, Steve!
May I ask, what's the tailpiece look like?
Enjoy the Brandt!

[Jim Garber]

Boy, just about everyone is being gifted these Brandts. How very nice! Well, Ed, I guess, some of us have to buy them, right?

[DougC]

I noticed that the fingerboard is 'square' where it meets the sound hole. Mine has some curves. Ed is yours that way or does this one have a new fingerboard?

[Ed Goist]

Doug; the bottom of the board on my purchased ( ;) ) Brandt is square, and ends just north of the soundhole.

74051

Also, I see that Steve's Brandt has the fancier "spear tip" bridge. The bridge on mine is much more basic. (Oh, and the tailpiece on mine is an aftermarket):

74052

I've noticed that there can be lots of variation on such details on the Brandts.

[Steve H.]

Hi Ed,

My tailpiece is aftermarket and not very good either; it doesn't come over the top so it's "jerry-rigged" with protective material to keep the strings from touching the top. I was going to Google a replacement. I friend of mine told me I could probably find a suitable replacement for about $40. Any suggestions are certainly welcome.

[Ed Goist]

Hi Ed,

My tailpiece is aftermarket and not very good either; it doesn't come over the top so it's "jerry-rigged" with protective material to keep the strings from touching the top. I was going to Google a replacement. I friend of mine told me I could probably find a suitable replacement for about $40. Any suggestions are certainly welcome.

Hi Steve:
I really like the German kidney-shaped tailpiece I purchased from Dave Hynds (see pic above), and here:

74061

You can find it, and several other tailpieces on Dave's website, on this page (http://www.mandolinluthier.com/mandolin_tailpieces.htm). I paid 10.50 pounds for it, shipping included. With the current currency conversion, that works out to just under $17! A very good deal in my opinion, and the shipping time was just a few days. (NFI)

[DougC]

I was wondering if someone makes a tailpiece like mine. However I'm not sure I'd recommend it because the strings touch the sound board and if they don't have any fuzzy wrapping, some leather is needed to prevent them from digging into the wood. The strings don't actually touch the wood but come darn close.
Also Steve, I'd recommend Ed's GHS strings. My $37 Pyramid flat wound strings just don't have the high overtones that bronze strings have. The Pyramid strings are very good they have nice projection and a big round sound but they feel loose and floppy and the G string never sounds right. I'd try a mixed set perhaps using GHS on the G string perhaps - just for fun.

[Jim Garber]

I was wondering if someone makes a tailpiece like mine.

I believe that that tailpiece (pictured in the opening to this thread), appeared on some Martin bowlbacks. Essentially, it is very similar IIRC to the std two-piece "clamshell" tailpiece, which is more common.


Also Steve, I'd recommend Ed's GHS strings. My $37 Pyramid flat wound strings just don't have the high overtones that bronze strings have. The Pyramid strings are very good they have nice projection and a big round sound but they feel loose and floppy and the G string never sounds right. I'd try a mixed set perhaps using GHS on the G string perhaps - just for fun.

I do not own a Brandt -- tho I am sure that I will either inherit one or be given one soon :) -- However, for the higher priced strings on bowlbacks I much prefer Dogal Calace RW92b (dolce) strings. They sound nice and bright even tho they are not bronze, they are roundwound. Make sure you get the dolce which are lighter gauge for these delicate bowlbacks. I have a set on my Vega and they sound wonderful and do last a long time. Bernunzio (http://bernunzio.com/products/QRRW92B)has them.

[Steve H.]

Thanks for all the good feedback. I need to talk to my friend and see what he recommends in terms of a tailpiece replacement. He said he'd like to see a picture of an original tailpiece and get something that resembles that (maybe Hynds' Italian)?? Also thanks for the good advice on string selection.

[Eugene]

Nothing to add other than it's nice to see this intriguing thread that cropped up during my Cafe hiatus.

[Jim Garber]

Nice to have you back, Eugene 0-- I always looks fwd to your contributions.

[Wonkenstein]

Hi Steve,

Still following and thanks for posting this…. I just finished repairs and set up on the Brandt I acquired just over a year ago. Now I know that it’s a Style G thanks to your post. The label on the neck block in mine has no letter in the square - it’s blank.