Eastman, Eastman, Eastman! [Archive]

flairbzzt

Nov-06-2004, 10:46am

Speaking practically, I'm just glad there's a choice. It's all relative to how much you play. The high end Gibsons and customs, etc. seem to work for the professional players, but those who spend more time at their day jobs may not want to spend $4,000+. I recently saw an ad where the seller stated "it's more mandolin than I need". I beleive there is something to that.
As far as the Eastmans, they are several steps above most of the cookie cutter imports and a great value..I also know that MAS usually has very little to do with practicality.
If you're looking for a professional opinion, try this. I took my 615 to Mandolin Brothers las week to possibly trade up to a $2-$3,000 mando and was advised against it by Stan Jay ( who had no problem taking it + $$ in trade) who had a great time playing mine and said it was the best one he's seen and heard. It blew away all the other inports and many domestics costing 3x as much. He couldn't see why I would want to part with it. So I didn't. I think his endorsement speaks volumes.

Tim Saxton

Nov-06-2004, 12:21pm

I played one of these Eastman mandolins. It was an 815. It was nice, real nice. However, the thing that seems disturbing is this endless product promotional spin. But, I can see how they have learned the art set forth by example from Gibson on this board.

I think the products should speak for them selves. Let it talk through the players not the reps, sales people, and builders.

Look at Weber, once in a great while Vern Brekke will pop in to say something but not often. They let the product do the talking.

I wish that there was a way to get unbiased information on mandolins.

my $.02

Tim Saxton

ps. Putting on flame retardant clothing.

peterleyenaar

Nov-06-2004, 12:49pm

As you may have noticed in another thread, I just yesterday received a Eastman 615 F , and I can tell you it is a quality mandolin both in tone and finish, it may not be as perfect as a Collings or a Weber, but it is very close, tone wise, it can hold its own and blind testing the Eastman among other high quality instruments could really surprise one.

I would prefer to purchase from a builder, but with waiting lists of 2 years, I could be dead by then and so could he, not to take in account the money , probably 4 to 5 times what you would spend for an Eastman.

I don't mind the promotinal spin, that is how I found out about these Eastmans in the first place, I am glad Steve sold the 814, I might have pulled out my creditcard again , who ever got that one , let us know what you think.

peterbc

Nov-06-2004, 12:57pm

The eastman guy seems to be on here to get suggestions on how to make their mandolins better. I don't think I've ever seen him try to pitch his products to anyone. The Gibson people say that they've got what they think are the best, but they also say they like a lot of other mandolins out there too, and they seem to do their best to make sure their customers are happy. Of course the mandolins should speak for themselves, but Gibson and Eastman have been friendly and helpful.

Ted Eschliman

Nov-06-2004, 1:57pm

Food for thought:
Lest anyone complain about the "exposure" of any maker on this forum, as I look across the top of the screen and see the list of those who pay for this useful resource:
Board Sponsors: Brentrup :: Bill Davis :: Gibson :: Michael Kelly :: Michael Lewis :: Rigel :: Eastman
I think we can cut any of the above a little bit of slack who help support the discussion board. As David Letterman ocassionaly chides his audience when they start to growl, "Just how much did you pay to get in here??" (Tickets are free to these shows...)
I'd also agree that most employed by the above post out of a motivation of serving us, above any sort of blatant self-promotion.

MandoHobbit

Nov-06-2004, 6:02pm

Just to add my two cents, I don't buy an instrument I haven't held in my own two hands. Sorry small builders, just a personal preference. If I could find a small builder within an hour or two drive with a selection of finished intruments available for sale then I would consider that.

Stillpicking

Nov-06-2004, 9:13pm

Hey Ted,

Good point about the supporters of the Cafe. I have to respond to the comment about the MK Legacy "O". I own one. Actually I own 2 MKs the "O" and an early "Butterfly" . I have played and owned a number of mandolins over the last 30 years of trying to learn the essence of this wonderful instrument. My first mando was a Gibson "A" pumpkin 1917. That Gibson had a sweet sound but the neck was a little to thick for me, wish I had kept it though. I have had the opportunity to play/switch during jam sessions with players that owned everything from Gibson Monroes to a number of high end big buck mandos. All of them sounded different and some I liked better than others. Just about in every case the players switched with me when I had my MK, not a one had a bad word to say about my inexpensive import. Just by the fact that they held on to my MK through a number of tunes says a lot and in fact a number of these players really liked the MK. Would they make me a trade, MK for a Gibson ? or course not. It would be foolish for a number of reasons without even mentioning the money lost by the trade. Would I trade #"MY" MK for a Gibson, OK you are all going to call me crazy here but I would say THANKS for the kind offer but I have become attached to my MK "Butterfly" and the Gibson would not be my MK.
Hard to believe but Iam telling you guys that is really how I feel about #a mandolin when I get to know it and I get it to sound the way I want it to sound. Kind of like finding the perfect set of darts or that perfect pick that is just the right shape and thickness, could be the $30 fossil pick or the $7 horn pick or maybe that "no name" pick your buddy gave you at the jam session last summer.

Well I hope you guys get what I am trying to say here and if you don't maybe someday you will. I finally did, but it took me a long time to figure out what was important to me music wise, mando wise and also life wise.

P.S. Ted I just Paypaled you for a set of EXPENSIVE !!!! TIs, no joke I really did !

Peace & keep on picking

ethanopia

Nov-06-2004, 9:37pm

I was at the Eastman booth for a quite a bit at IBMA and sampled a number of the instruments that they had there. They do sound like imports to me but better than a lot of the others out there. I think they need to really need to dial in the sound if they want to charge what they are which is basically what Jeremy was saying in this thread I think.

That for the money you might be able to get a better sounding instrument, but Eastman in my opinion after talking to the rep for a good while has their heart in the right place. They are trying to make a qulity hand made product at an o=afordable price.

And those fiberglass cases are pretty nice for the money.

JeffS

Nov-06-2004, 10:25pm

Is a $2000 custom mandolin worth it though? That is pretty cheap for a custom job and if it sucks you're out some money. If a builder is charging that little then he or she is probably new and I would be worried about the duribility of their crafstmanship. The two builders you cite charge a little more than that, in fact they're up there with Weber, Collings, and Gibson so I think your point is moot. If you don't want to buy an Eastman then don't. At least come up with a better argument, like the scroll looking funny. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Nalapombu

Nov-07-2004, 2:20am

Maybe the Cafe could create a page or so that has builders that sell for less than a certain amount so it would make it easier for people to find and get matched up with a builder that may have openings.
I know there are some great mandos out there in the $2-$3G range, maybe they don't get enough "chatter" prompting people to search them out.

berkeleymando

Nov-07-2004, 11:43am

I'm sure Eastman mandolins are OK, although with so very many builders listed in the builder's database of mandolincafe.com I am sure anyone can find something both of good quality and reasonable in price.

My own preference would be to buy something from a small-scale builder. Do the eastman luthiers sign their mandolins? Probably not. I sorta appreciate some sense of the individual who made it.

Stephen Perry

Nov-07-2004, 12:29pm

I suspect Eastman mandolins are built by teams. Someone makes the necks, someone carves the plates, etc. Classic small-shop violin approach.

On sound, most of the Eastmans sound simply not played in. All I have to compare them to is my old Flatiron, which was sufficiently played in to need fret dressing when I got it. I'll have to take an Eastman to Nashville next time I head that way and compare to some other mandolins. Sound and tone and response memory is notoriously unreliable!

Looking at the amount of work to make a mandolin, I'm surprised so many benchmade mandolins are so low priced. I would expect some people to be OK with CNC cut stuff, others to be willing to pay for complete hand work, and so on. Some want a signed label and some are OK with any label that's stuck in there! In violin world we tend to look to labels last. Easy to take out and put it, even on an assembled instrument.

I like that the Eastmans look like they are made by hand. They don't look like the MK, MM, KY, etc. and aren't made the same way I suspect.

Steve

atetone

Nov-07-2004, 2:11pm

O.K., well I have been trying not to bring this up, but in a moment of weakness, well here goes,,,
Several months ago when the Eastman mandos hit the market I read a whole bunch of stuff about them and it all seemed alright except for one thing,,,
The claim to fame on quality control was that if the head luthier at the end of the line does not approve the finished product as fit for shipping then no-one involved in the making of that particular instrument got paid for the work performed on that instrument.
That in a nutshell was bragged about as being the ultimate quality control system.
Well I have a problem with that.
I have since gone back to the Eastman site and that particular piece of info is no longer available. It seems as though perhaps someone realized that it might be a bit of a sensitive issue to some of us.
I fully understand that China has a different culture than us and that over there maybe this is commonplace and acceptable. I am not really sure.
I also believe that Eastman feels that it is, and probably is, providing a decent living to its workers.
Of course it is all relative to where you actually live.
I do not begrudge the workers in China the right to make a good mandolin and the benefits of their employment.
I actually like the idea that Eastman is entering the market, providing an alternative at a very decent price level and I am thinking that at some point down the road I might even buy one.
I applaud Eastmans attempts to gather info and feedback to build a better mandolin. Great. It shows a progressive attitude and a willingness to adapt.
Good stuff.
I guess I'll have to get my act in gear and contact Eastman directly to get the definitive answer to my concerns before I slap down my money.
I am not trying to flame anyone, preach to anyone or influence anyone with this post.
It is just a personal twinge that I have to get sorted out.

Jim Rowland

Nov-07-2004, 6:15pm

I'm not sure what perusers of our classifieds are looking for. I've offered two handmade "F"s there for well under two thousand...good ones..and though I've sent out tons of pictures and offered a reasonable tryout period and guaranteed quality materials etc..no sale. Maybe it's my lousy photography.
Jim

mandoJeremy

Nov-07-2004, 7:59pm

Uhhh...JeffS, I think you are quite mistaken. For the moment Darby only charges $2500.00 (just talked to him last week!) and Keith only charges $2500.00 (actually saw him around a month ago).

dwc

Nov-07-2004, 8:06pm

I think there is a perception (valid or not) that you have a measure of quality control with a factory mandolin that you do not have with a small Luthier. Before you flame me to death let me explain for I understand how counter intuitive that statement is.
For most people, myself included, a mandolin is a very hefty investment. If you get a Dude or a Gil or a (insert your favorite incredibly talented luthier here) you are almost assured a tremendous product. But, just for a moment put yourself in the shoes of a hobbyist who does not want to spend that kind of money on a mandolin.
Okay, here are your choices: A) small independant luthier, probably not well known and maybe, but not necessarily, young, B) buy an used mandolin, or C) buy a new factory mandolin probably pacrim.
Here is the problem with a small luthier from the prospective of our hypothetical hobbyist. He can only afford 1 instrument and if its bad by whatever definition, he is pretty much stuck. Our fictional character is afraid to pin his hopes on the little guy. Unfortunate but true. He is likewise afraid to buy used because he doesn't really know enough to appraise the quality of the instrument and he is afraid he will get an instrument with structural flaws. Plus, no warrenty. Hence his only choice is a factory made instrument. Has a warrenty and he pretty much knows what he is getting. It isn't a Gil, but at least its a ********.
I am not saying that this is necessarily logical, but I know it goes through a lot of people's heads when buying an instrument. If I buy new from a big company, I have a warrenty and I have some "quality" assurance, for better or worse. From an independent, can't be sure what you are getting. I'm not saying its right (or wrong) merely attempting to explain the phenomenon.

doanepoole

Nov-07-2004, 8:16pm

I agree with Jeremy...I can't speak for Scot mandolins, but I can speek for Rose mandolins as Darby lives in my town and I have tried his stuff back when it was being sold for $1700. I have a Gibson (actually 2, but one is an old A), and the mandolin Darby had in for repair, quite honestly, outplayed my Gibson, not so much in terms of tone, which was just different, more throaty, less bright, but in terms of chop. I think they now go for $2500, and I am willing to bet that won't last long, as I've heard that some semi-well-known pros are placing orders. If I needed or wanted a bluegrass mandolin, that would be where I would place my order...and take that with a big grain of salt because for sure the tax money anyone would spend on one of his mando would go to my public school system and help make kids in my state less dumb...also might fill some potholes on my way to work, etc, etc.

I totally understand the allure of the Eastman, and also their pricing structure. They are going in above the MK, but below the Weber market. And they sure do look nice. Plus some well known dealers stock their prodcut, and boom!, the consumer feels like his transaction is secure. I am glad they are in the market. They will help keep American builders honest.

EasyEd

Nov-07-2004, 10:29pm

Hey All,

I was just looking in the classifieds and I see the Acoustic Music Shop in Edmonton is going to start carrying Eastmans. Last time I was in there (about 2 weeks ago) all they had on the wall were Breedloves and various PacRim stuff. I've played their Breedloves and can tell little difference in sound between the Quartz level and the Cascade level although the price tag was hefty for both (but probably not totally outrageous) even after adjusting for currency. I will say their Breedloves were well set up and played like butter - an absolute delight and they were plenty loud enough. I look forward to seeing what the Eastmans are like and equally important how they are priced relative to the Breedloves. I realize that that is a model issue but I will be able to make side by side comparisons.

I agree with most of what dwc said as basically being reality for most folks - myself included. I too like the idea of supporting a local small builder but I am increasingly convinced that many (most?) small builders are in business because 1) they love music and working with wood and 2) they love the whole idea of an instrument being lovingly and caringly made by one man in a small shop and 3) want/expect to make a living at it. Unfortunately the way of the world is increasing technology (=less human labor) and mass production in a world that is going to triple it's 1960 population by around 2020 - most of them looking for a job and willing to cut anybody else's livelihood to get it. I can relate because I wish I could live an agricultural lifestyle similar to what builders want but of course I can't because I live in the same high production cost environment as North American mandolin builders. My suggestion was that small builders increase production by adopting scale appropriate mass production techniques so as to keep their mandolins more reasonably priced. I suggested this in another thread pointing out that Givens made near a mando a week for 30 odd years so it should be doable and got no intelligible answers (lotta muttering though) as to why not. So I suspect it boils down to personal choice - which is fine - but that basically puts me out of the market - even though I know who I would most likely buy from.

As dwc suggests I'm a hobbyist and I certainly have more than one hobby (golf, hunting, car rebuilding, etc) competing for the expenditure of dollars. The only way I see to justify spending those kind of dollars on a mandolin is to be earning some income as a mandolin player. Either that or buy the appropriate lotto ticket. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I can always dream right!?! As a result I will be looking closely at Eastmans when they get to Edmonton since I wish to upgrade (have a Kentucky 250) and my 12 year old fiddle playing daughter wants to play mandolin as well. Of course - like everyone else here - I also watch ebay, the classifieds an am keeping my eye out for that elusive Loar hiding under someone's bed. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Just my $0.02 Can.

Take Care! -Ed-

Keith Newell

Nov-08-2004, 1:23am

Some how I get the feeling people dont think small builders have a warrentee or quality control. What better quality control then to have the same guy involved with everything from wood selection, customer contact, design, construction and final set up? #Have you ever seen a factory where different departments do differnt parts of the final product? I have, you get Monday morning products and Friday afternoon products and its only compounded when they can pass the piece their working on to the next station and let them find the flaw. This is not a new thing, its been going on for decades.
And Warrentees, I dont know any small builder that doesnt offer a warrentee to the original buyer and wouldn't work out something with a owner of an instrument that has changed hands several times. I offer a lifetime warrentee...(my lifetime).
#Lets put this different, if you were going to build your dream house would you go to the track home builder that cranks them out rain or shine or the custom home builder that has an in house architect and can walk you through the choices and then keep you informed as to what materials are used, what problems or successes and what time frame to expect your dream to be ready?
Keith Newell

f5joe

Nov-08-2004, 6:19am

Perhaps we should provide American "small" builders with a Living Wage. Yeah, that's the ticket! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Tim

Nov-08-2004, 7:14am

A true free market would be free at all points of the economy. #Minimum wage laws are restrictions on a free market for labor. #The founders of the USA didn't write minimum wage laws, those were a much more recent invention. #There is an inconsistency in calling for a free market but at the same time advocating restrictions on the labor market.

Ted Eschliman

Nov-08-2004, 9:11am

Gang, for those of you who have been around awhile, we've had these labor issues crop up in the past, and create quite a bit of non-mandolin tension. Those new to the Discussion Board may be unfamiliar with the controversy...
Just a gentle reminder that in the interest of "harmony" (pun intended) we are going to have a very short leash on these discussions because of the unconstructive political backwash they tend to create.
Do me a personal favor, and do your best to steer around the subject on this thread.

EastmanGordon

Nov-08-2004, 9:18am

Atetone previously posted - "I guess I'll have to get my act in gear and contact Eastman directly to get the definitive answer to my concerns before I slap down my money.
I am not trying to flame anyone, preach to anyone or influence anyone with this post.
It is just a personal twinge that I have to get sorted out". [I]

Greetings everybody. I was in two minds about whether it was appropriate to chime in here but I think there are a couple of things that I do need to clarify. The quality control issue came up when I was talking with Steven Stone who writes for Vintage Guitar magazine and he asked me how we manage to keep the quality consistent at the workshop. I told him that we employ a version of TQM (Total Quality Management) whereby everyone checks the previous stages work to make sure that it is up to standard before proceeding with their own process. If it is not up to standard then it is sent back for reworking or remaking. With this system in place and working correctly you can mostly guarantee that nothing will get rejected at final inspection. Previous to this job with Eastman I was a plant manager for a large screenprinting firm in the midwest and we used exactly the same techniques to ensure the quality of our printing jobs. TQM is used in manufacturing everywhere today and I am sure that there are many people on this list that are familiar with it in their day to day professions. It certainly is not setup to somehow negate the efforts of our workers, there is no sense in that. What it does in fact is guarantee that everyone does get paid because the quality stays high.

I hear what people say about our posting here being a little self serving and I would be disingenuous if I tried to pretend that we don't view this in no small way as an important advertising tool. I talked with Scott Tichenor at length before I posted about whether this was appropriate or not and he strongly recommended that we go ahead. I have always refrained from blowing our trumpet and have tried to stick to answering questions. I monitored postings for a long time before I jumped in and noted that there was a lot of stuff written about us here that was a little dubious and I felt it was time to put the record straight. If I step over the line sometimes I know that there are many on the board that will deservedly beat me down with their virtual baseball bats. We really do believe that the only way to get better is to listen to the players (it worked beautifully for us in the violin world)and this is an invaluable resource for that. Where else can you find this level of discussion? Our goal is to ultimately produce the best mandolin available anywhere and we are very serious about this.

Enough of that. I was thinking that perhaps you all could nominate someone to give me a call and we could spend some time going over all these and any other questions and I will be happy to tape the conversation, convert it to a soundfile and distribute it (uncensored) to everyone that is interested. We honestly have nothing to hide and we are very proud of the people that work for us and the products we produce.
So waddya think?
Gordon (climbing into his virtual baseball bat protection outfit)

f5joe

Nov-08-2004, 9:28am

Gordon, your participation is always square. That's appreciated! Stay involved, please.

barricwiley

Nov-08-2004, 10:54am

I also want to be counted in for EastmanGordon staying involved with this forum.. I am very interested in what he has to say. Thanks,
Richard

squeally dan

Nov-08-2004, 11:08am

I think your input is interesting & useful. DOn't quit posting. THe other posters can decide how to use the info. you provide. YOur not forcing anyone to buy your mandolin. I for one, would love to hear more for you & any other builders out there. THANKS!

thistle3585

Nov-08-2004, 11:24am

Gordon brings up an interesting point along the lines of the questions. Since Comando got out of the Guest of the Week, how about an interview category where people could post specific questions to musicians, builders, music industry management etc. By turning it into an informative thing could also allow us to focus on the product and services without encouraging the bashing. Just an idea.

dwc

Nov-08-2004, 2:47pm

Keith,
I absolutely agree that there is a (probably unfair) perception among many mandolin buyers re: the warrenties offered by independent luthiers. #In addition, I for one do not have a good sense for how custom "custom" is, and I don't think I am alone. #However, the trend I am describing extends way beyound musical instruments. #At least in the part of the country where I live, suburbia, track homebuilders or builders who build 200+ homes a yaer sell way more houses in the $500,000+ price range than all the other builders combined. #I think its about an 80%/20% split with 3 large national builders getting the lion's share of the sales. #It kinda sucks, but it seems to be what people want, for whatever reason.

mikeyes

Nov-08-2004, 3:03pm

JiminRussia,

Go to Spruce Tree Music in Madison, WI (http://www.sprucetreemusic.com)and you will see a 614 for sale. I went down to look at it a few weeks ago and came back with a Weber Bighorn instead along with leaving a lot of my old instruments with Spruce Tree.

They will deal with you and do you right.

dwc

Nov-08-2004, 3:12pm

Sorry to keep posting, but I think this is a pretty important topic and I thought of an excellent example of what I am talking about. I bet almost every one out there has a PC. Anybody have a Mac? I think (and alot of other comp engineers would agree) that Macs are superior architecture, but PCs are ubiquitous in the market and Macs a mere blip. For those using PCs, what OS do you use? Microsoft? Anybody use linux? Its not only better, its free. Still no takers? Welcome to market saturation. A lot of people seem to want a faceless corp. standing (sort of) behind the products that they buy.
So what is the solution? Buy a Mac. Just kidding. For Eastman, the solution is keep producing a quality product and maintain a presence in the mando community. Don't become a faceless corp. When was the last time a Saga rep was signed on? Seriously, I'd like to know.
For smaller luthiers, the situation is more grim. However, I would offer, if not a solution, then a possibility. Alienware. They build computers, really nice, high end computers, pretty much custom (although they do have standard models). They found a niche, high end PC gamers, and produced something that those consumers wanted. Then they gave excellent customer support, setting themselves far apart from other manufactures. Finally, they advertised. It cost some to start up, but it payed off big time. I know a lot of small builders are backlogged and not taking new orders. Great for them, thats great when demand exceeds supply. For the rest, perhaps, at minumum, better, more personal websites (not just contact info or a price list with a couple of photos) touting why a consumer should pick your instrument, how yours is better, and why your customer service is better. If I am on your website I want to be sold a mandolin. Sorry, I will stop preaching now, but it saddens me to no end to see good or excellent product being ignored in the market.

John Flynn

Nov-08-2004, 4:08pm

I sympathize with the small builder predicament, I really do. As a buyer, I find thier stuff really tempting. But here is what is important to me, based on my limited experience of buying a couple dozen instruments over the last 30+ years:

1. I want to try the instrument I am considering before I buy it. That may be very "last century," but that is the way I feel. The initial "bonding" with the instrument is an essential part of my impetus to buy. I will never "need" another mandolin. If I buy one, it's because I want one, or pure MAS. To me it's almost like a relationship. I could probably have found a mail-order wife with a 48-hour approval period, but it wouldn't be my idea of how to start a long-term relationship.

2. Warranty is important to me and I am sure that many small builders stand behind thier products. But I have one small builder mando from a well known builder. I won't name names, but he won't even return repeated phone calls and emails just to answer a question. I can only imagine how I could get warranty work done. I am not the only one having problems with this guy either. Also, there is what I call the "Old Wave" factor. I really admire Bill Bussman's work and have been tempted to order one of his mandos. I also admire his truth in advertising, "Guaranteed for the life of the builder," but that idea gives me pause. With a small builder, what good could a guarantee be if he gets out of the business, for whatever reason? In my experience with other products, big companies with reputations to lose have a better warranty track record.

Just MHO.

atetone

Nov-08-2004, 6:01pm

Eastman Gordon, I am pleased to see you respond. I also agree that your presence here on the board has been informative and conducted in a professional manner. No concerns on my part about that. I appreciate your willingness to participate in the discussions.
Some of the dealers may be on a bit of a learning curve about just where the line is but I suppose enthusiasm is the driving force there. Hopefully time will tone it down a wee bit.
In regards to my concerns about just who I am buying from and what is happening behind the scenes I would hope that you and Eastman understand that this is important to some of us. I will do my due dilligence if and when the time comes to purchase and if I am not comfortable with what I see then I will go elsewhere.
Hey, when you are buying a mando you want it all to feel good!
The global marketplace being what it is these days these issues are bound to come up.
I just hope that Eastman is as progressive in this regard as it is in pursuing feedback on how to produce a better mandolin.
I am a prospective customer but "inquiring minds need to know".

Jim Rowland

Nov-08-2004, 7:25pm

All of these posts are interesting and germain to the topic in general. What has me puzzled is the argument that small builder sales are damped by the inability of the prospect to actually hold and play the instrument. I,and I suspect most small builders, will allow the prospect a reasonable tryout period. In my case,I pay shipping one way,he or she the other..a twenty dollar risk similar to driving to a shop with respectable inventory and back home..not to mention the time involved. Happily,I do not have to sell my mandolins in order to live comfortably. Building is something I have enjoyed for over thirty years. I retired from everything seven years ago and have devoted my workself entirely to studying and building mandolins. In short,I am et up with it. Selling a mandolin is,to me,a confirmation that my skills are reaching a certain level. I am hoping that the instruments are reaching a stratum that will command a decent price. If I sell a handmade F 5 copy for 300 bucks,who is going to buy it? Probably not someone who will be able to feed back a sophisticated opinion. Give them away? I've given away dozens of guitars and mandolins.
I seldom hear of them afterwards. So here's my deal. I'll send someone with a reliable history on this site and reasonably good playing skills a mandolin.If there is a taker on this,I'll pay the shipping and insurance both ways.
This instrument will be one I built about four years ago,and is imperfect in some ways,but you can get the idea of what I am trying to do.
Jim

august west

Nov-08-2004, 8:59pm

Grow(jim)
Build me a kick ### lefty f style. Send me some info please. I'm interested. ~MJH

JimW

Nov-08-2004, 9:05pm

Jim, I just looked at your profile. I see you're in Portsmouth, OH. Man, thats only 45 miles from me in Huntington, WV. If I'd known that, I would've included you in my search for a custom mandolin back in April of this year. Man, I guess I'm lucky as there are about 20 to 25 builders within 3 hours of me.

Jim

Jim Rowland

Nov-08-2004, 10:34pm

Hello again:

Guys, I've received a couple of messages asking me if I am offering a free mandolin. In re-reading my post,I can understand the confusion. What I am offering is a thorough tryout of one of my mandolins at no cost to the player. Essentially it would be a favor to me. I really want your player's opinion of the quality of the instrument and your estimate of its value compared to others you have played.No sales pressure on the person who does the tryout. The player who works with me on this project is free to post his or her opinions,good,bad,or indifferent on the board or to me personally.
Jim

Tim

Nov-09-2004, 5:57am

grow-

You are correct that the shipping to return a mandolin is comparable to the cost of a trip to go to a store. #The missing part is that most small builders want money before the building starts, then there is the wait time and if you don't like it you are out 6-18 months (or more) of waiting time and back where you started, plus your cash was tied up for that same wait time.

Combine that with the oft repeated advice to play lots of mandolins and buy the one that "speaks to you", the small builder route could spend a lifetime of waiting/returning until you find the "one".

Jim Rowland

Nov-09-2004, 12:09pm

Thanks to all who replied. I am making arrangements with MandoJeremy to ship him the mandolin for his critique.
Jim

jamman

Nov-09-2004, 10:50pm

Jim,

I really like how you've stepped up "for the little guys" in this thread. I'd bet MandoJeremy is a good player to critique your mandolin. Members here may point to the fact MandoJeremy started this thread with intention, an insightful intention IMO, and assume bias. You may want to give your mandolin a breif tour of some kind.

The gap between a small luthier and a larger shop as to how easily more players can get a mandolin in their hands, seems to me the greatest difference.

Mando Mark in Indy

Nov-16-2004, 5:35pm

I have 2 Eastman mandolins in stock here in Indianapolis. A MD605 (A style) and a MD615 (F style) and they are both great! The last one I had in the store was sold in under a week. I have sold Eastman violins for over 4 years and their mandolins are proving to be as solid as their violin products. Great stuff!

Mark

www.franksviolins.com (http://www.franksviolins.com)

EasyEd

Nov-18-2004, 12:28pm

Hey All,

Earlier I wrote...

I was just looking in the classifieds and I see the Acoustic Music Shop in Edmonton is going to start carrying Eastmans. Last time I was in there (about 2 weeks ago) all they had on the wall were Breedloves and various PacRim stuff. I've played their Breedloves and can tell little difference in sound between the Quartz level and the Cascade level although the price tag was hefty for both (but probably not totally outrageous) even after adjusting for currency. I will say their Breedloves were well set up and played like butter - an absolute delight and they were plenty loud enough. I look forward to seeing what the Eastmans are like and equally important how they are priced relative to the Breedloves. I realize that that is a model issue but I will be able to make side by side comparisons.

Yesterday I was in Edmonton and stopped at the music store and Lo and Behold hanging on the wall were two Eastmans a 605 and a 615. The proprietor told me that they also got an archtop guitar and that it sold fast.

Impressions...

Aesthetics - simply beautiful! I really like the classic finish and the figure in the wood of both was really attractive but not IMO overfigured which I'm not a fan of as I suspect that maybe Bob Givens was right that plain to moderately figured wood has the best sound. Of course these two instruments being at the 600 series level were not fully finished under the fretboard extension or on the F within the scroll. Otherwise the workmanship was really good.

Sound - I played both a bit and also one of the Breedloves (a black K body with f holes). Remember I still consider myself a beginner and so I'm not really able to wring the full sound potential out of a mandolin like most of you can. That said I could tell little difference between the three. All three sounded great in the highs lows and mids and volume was pretty much equivalent and plenty loud. I don't know what bracing system is in the Breedlove but I believe both Eastmans were tone bar (Gordon can correct me if I'm wrong) so I would expect some more bass development from the Eastmans depending upon woods used. Did any of these instruments have that loud bluegrass woody thunk? Well not that I was really able to get out of them. But I'm not very good at those closed bluegrass chop chords yet. My efforts tend to be pretty muddy yet even though I can reach them. I've no doubt that better players could get more out of them.

An aside - Gordon did we ever establish what species of spruce and maple is used in these mandos? (Latin names please if possible as common names are deceiving)

Price - lower than Breedlove Quartz model for these instruments. Price tags on the instruments appeared to be about 10% off list roughly adjusting for currency. I now think that Eastman is gonna take a real bite out of the American market. These mando's sound great and are really attractive. I also suspect that they are good enough (unlike most Pac Rim Products) that many buyers won't see a need to upgrade thus likely taking a bite out of the next higher market (many small builders I suspect) - unless severe MAS sets in of course. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Dislikes - Only one I'm increasingly convinced that I do not like fretboard extensions unless scooped as they are always where I tend to play on the strings and I tend to hit them and would wear a scar into one if I had a mando like that. I guess I could learn if I have to but I'd rather not.

Gordon - where are the 700s? They don't have fretboard extensions do they?

Another aside - Scott or Dan or Ted if your out there have any of you taken Gordon up on his offer to discuss the socio/politico/economico aspects of Chinese versus North American production and put some of these facts on the table in the form of an mp3? I think it's a good idea to do so.

Overall I'm seriously considering a purchase as I really like them but I'd like to know where the 700s are at first.

Take Care! -Ed-

brandon

Nov-18-2004, 12:34pm

Ed,...what about playability?

EasyEd

Nov-18-2004, 1:02pm

Hey All,

Yeah Brandon Playability OK. They were all pretty equal but I think the Breedlove was just a touch smoother but not enough to discount the Eastmans at all. To me playability is so much influenced by setup (strings, action height, etc) that I'm not sure what playability means in terms of the instrument itself. My impression is that even an instrument that someone says is unplayable may be fine if properly setup so I don't usually get real excited about it. I pay attention first to sound and tone then looks and then playability. Now maybe there are aspects to playability that I've missed and I'd appreciate it if someone pointed them out but that's my take for now.

One other thing that just occurred to me is the shape of the neck does affect playability and all three were very similar. I probably haven't played enough different kinds of necks to really be picky. That said I think all three are more playable than my Kentucky 250 because I think my Kentucky probably has a bit slimmer neck than I really like and I've got the action on my Kentucky a bit on the high side for volume and tone - so it hurts more to press them strings down. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Take Care! -Ed-

Ted Eschliman

Nov-18-2004, 3:44pm

Another aside - Scott or Dan or Ted if your out there have any of you taken Gordon up on his offer to discuss the socio/politico/economico aspects of Chinese versus North American production and put some of these facts on the table in the form of an mp3? I think it's a good idea to do so.
Ed, I appreciate your insights with your descriptive, well documented observations in Edmonton.
But in answer to your query about this kind of MP3, there are 2 compelling reasons I would be against it.
#1. This is still a mandolin forum. The S/P/E aspects belong in a debate outside of this venue, as defined by the site author, and overwhelmingly supported by its moderators. Outside of this
#2. Gordon is perfectly willing to share and discuss openly these issues directly. We wouldn't even think of discouraging, let alone preventing that. But, let's keep that outside, as the pattern has been once these issues are posted, intense feelings on both sides of the fence erupt and veer us off the course of mandolin.
Thanks for everyone's understanding.

EasyEd

Nov-18-2004, 4:49pm

Hey All,

I was just asking Ted. Gordon offered and then the silence was deafening. Seeing that post again simply reminded me and I thought I'd ask.

Take Care! -Ed-

Richard Polf

Nov-18-2004, 4:59pm

Why is this forum so afraid of free speech all of the sudden? So what if feelings get intense --- we're adults, we can handle it. We're talking about the soul of democracy --- the open marketplace of ideas. I've been a member of this board, mainly as a lurker, since 2000. These days, just about all the interesting discussions have been stamped out by all this political correctness. Hey, folks, offshore manufacturing of musical instruments is a fact for some time now, and will not be going away. I think its good to air these issues. If not here, where?

BTW, I own a Samick baby grand piano (S. Korea), two yamaha saxophones (Japan), an Ibanez "lawsuit" archtop guitar (Japan), a Martin guitar, and, yes, a Tacoma Mandolin. And they are all great instruments.

Richard

Ted Eschliman

Nov-18-2004, 7:50pm

Why is this forum so afraid of free speech all of the sudden? So what if feelings get intense --- we're adults, we can handle it.
No, Richard. That is simply not the case. I don't doubt that you can handle it, but not EVERYBODY can. Some simply don't know when to stop...
Unfortunately, the majority will not completely understand this because the really awful inflamatory posts (and I'm not talking like what's on the Thile thread) have been either sanitized or removed while everyone sleeps, like last week's trash.
Trust me, there has been some really awful stuff posted in the past. All it takes is one out of hand to get twenty people going. Harsh as it may seem, we're doing our best to prevent it and keep the site on course.
There are those who find Professional Wrestling or Cock Fighting "interesting," too. (We don't talk about those subjects here either.)

Richard Polf

Nov-18-2004, 8:47pm

Ted,

Thanks for your explanation --- if things have degenerated to that level then I guess that's the way it's going to have to be. I'm truly sorry to hear that it's that bad. Thanks for your hard work. I'd rather be talking music theory, anyway.

Richard:(

JiminRussia

Nov-18-2004, 9:43pm

Well I finally made it over to mandolin Brothers today. I spent about an hour in the mando room mostly playing the Eastmans (Eastmen?).....whatever. Gordon, I have a few questions for you. Was thre a price hike somewhere along the line? Actually it was someone at the store that pointed it ou to me that the two 815's were about $350 different in price and were conseutive serial numbers! Next, I noticed that the blond 815 that they had did not have the bound F holes. Is this usual for the blond models? I also found an 815 and a 615 that I could find absolutely no diference between except for the bridge as far as the construction goes. The 615 had very much nicer wood in it though. They even had the same little error on the top side of the scroll in the binding. The bridge on the 815 was a staggered saddle and the 615 had a straight slanted saddle. I also found one 815 with no serial number at all. Is this a prototype? There seems to be a big diference in the necks of these mandolins too. a couple of them had a V neck that was so sharp you could slice tomatoes with it, and another had a much more rounded, although still V shaped neck. BOth were pretty comfortable, but I really liked the more rounded neck. One had a scooped extension and others had just flat, fretted extensions. Have you guys made up your minds which way they are goin to be "finalized or is this butterfly still in its cacoon? By the way I liked the mandos, but I certainly would like to know what the final permutation is going to be before plunkng down the cash, and I'm still working on that barbed wire thing looking for the oval hole. Now just one more question. The extension seems to be glued down to the top for about half of the way in and then there is a slight gap between the extension and the top. I have always heard that some of the mandolins with the tops glued to the extensions, like the Gibsn A40, didn't have the volume and/or response that those with fully elevated extensions did. What's the Eastman take on this? Keep up the good work. You guys are coming along right nicely, but please get a few oval hole F's out there for us to try.

EastmanGordon

Nov-19-2004, 8:09am

Sorry about the deathly silence, I was out of town for a couple of days. My offer is completely sincere and I would love to have that chat and then post the mp3 on our website for all to hear. We really are very proud of what we do here and I know that nobody (except maybe me) is being exploited by Eastman. I recognise the worries of the moderators here that things have a tendency to get out of hand when this topic comes up which is why we should take this conversation elsewhere methinks. I have to tell you it will be a relief to finally put this subject to rest.
Gordon
ps. Jim I will answer all your Mando Bros questions as soon as I can grab a few minutes.

EasyEd

Nov-19-2004, 8:31pm

Hey All,

Sorry about the deathly silence, I was out of town for a couple of days. My offer is completely sincere and I would love to have that chat and then post the mp3 on our website for all to hear. We really are very proud of what we do here and I know that nobody (except maybe me) is being exploited by Eastman. I recognise the worries of the moderators here that things have a tendency to get out of hand when this topic comes up which is why we should take this conversation elsewhere methinks. I have to tell you it will be a relief to finally put this subject to rest.

Gordon I was just kidding about the deafening (not deathly - I hope http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) silence. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I suspect there will be no relief to this subject for a lot of years as I believe the world will not be on a level economic playing field for a long time - decades anyway - so any relief for you I'm afraid will only be temporary - sorry http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif - and I agree that the moderators here are overly protective.

Anyway I think maybe what you suggested is probably the best thing to do. Post something on the Eastman site about Eastman's (or yours?) take on this whole social/political/economic issue. I suspect that there are equivalent concerns from the guitar and violin crowds although I don't know.

I also had a few questions Eastman mando related questions - see the end of page 2 of this thread where I posted a bit of a review of a few minutes playing a 605 and 615.

Take Care! -Ed-

kurtwestphal

Nov-19-2004, 9:32pm

Hi everyone, I'm a new member and this is my first post. JiminRussia, you just missed trying an oval-hole at mandolin bros. I purchased an 814 (#006) there on the 17th. All I can say is it is an excellent mandolin. I spent about 3 hours there, trying out everything, and the only one's I liked better were a couple of F-5's that were way out of my price range. Thanks to everyone for all the informative and entertaing posts I've read since discovering the site about a month ago. -Kurt

Jaded

Nov-19-2004, 10:10pm

I think the reason many people may choose to buy an Eastman rather than look at small builders in that same price range is that many of the builders in that range are going to be lesser known builders who most buyers have not had much exposure to.

Return policies and all are great, but they just don't quite make up for not being able to hold it, play it etc before the purchase...they also don't do much to motivate desire to purchase either.

I own a small builder mandolin. However, I probably never would have purchased it, had I not had the chance to play the mandolin my friend has by the same maker. I'm just not willing to tie up thousands of dollars in an instrument based merely on the opinion of others. I have to have had a chance to at least hear someone else play one, before I'm gonna be real interested in buying.

That said, I think i'd be hesitant to buy an Eastman at their current price point, unless I found one that just really grabbed me. I had the same issue with the Gibson F9. I felt like there were too many equal or better options for the same or slightly more money to make it worthwhile.

JiminRussia

Nov-19-2004, 11:51pm

kurtwestphal, Just my luck a day late and a dollar short! I did fid one that I actually liked the sound of better than the F holed Eastman (for the price that is) but I just can't seem to get used to the idea of that little stub of a scroll on the Breedlove Quartz KO. I don't mind the plainess of it and I love the sound of it, but that stub just gives me the creeps! It looks like the scroll was amputated.

Onesound

Nov-21-2004, 11:17am

I've been enjoying this discussion, and thought I'd add my experience. I've owned a few low end mandos over the years. Started with a $100 Epiphone back in the 80s, then a Flatiron 2M, a top end Kentucky A, and then an old Martin flattop. Finally, I managed to scrape together enough cash to buy a "decent" semi-professional instrument. At the time, listmembers (1997) were raving about two or three small builders whe had instruments in the $1K to $2K price range. So I took a chance and ordered from one of them. Waited about 6 months to get delivery. When it finally came, it was a killer tone wise, but I was very dissapointed in some of the "less than professional" finish work - including a sizable gap between the body binding and the top. Flaws that even my $100 Epi didn't have. So I sent it back, and ordered another. Now, the builder was a real gentleman about it, even letting me keep the old one till the new one was finished (another 6 months). The new one was much better finish wise, although still not perfect.

Maybe I expect too much, but when I spend over $1K, I expect to get quality. This amount of money does not come easily, and is a big financial decision when being spent for a "hobby". For example, I recently bought a (American made) Carvin electric guitar that cost over $1K, and it is perfect. Beautiful woods, and flawless finish, frets with highly pollished ends, etc. In order to come with the cash I had to scrimp and save for quite a while. Bottom line is that I can't afford to make a mistake when buying an instrument. And this purchase proves that it's possible to get quality without breaking the bank.

So, even though I was ultimately satisfied with my custom built mando, I'm not sure if I would go back to another small builder for another one, unless, perhaps, it's someone local. I've seen quite a few pacific rim boxs that have had better finish quality than my custom. So, for the money, I think I'd be more satisfied going with an Eastman, MK, etc., next time around.

Cheers,
Onesound

klartunz

Dec-19-2015, 3:34pm

One problem for those, like me that would be looking at the Eastman line is that we don't know who the "affordable" builders are. You see brands and builders mentioned here and then you go to their website only to find out that their mandos are $6500. It's not hard to understand why people would drop all of the hassle and just get a good mando that's right in front of them.
Someone post a list of mandolins that are reasonable priced and then you might have something.

Nala

That has been my experience. $6500 and up.

jetsedgwick

Dec-19-2015, 11:07pm

1. I want a "F" style oval hole. Not too many out there, custom or otherwise. Yeah, I know M. K., I played two and they souded like a couple of bricks with strings.
2. I'll let you know after I have acrtually tried one of these rare birds. It seems that they are about as common as lips on a chicken (the "F" ovals that is). I did find one 814 that I couldn't wrangle a trade for that I was happy with, but sight unseen/heard I wasn't really ready to pursue that one.
3. I'm looking at closer to $1,100+ than I am $2,000+ . maybe a 614?

consider the Gretsch F, oval

ccravens

Dec-20-2015, 8:06am

I just read all of this and just now noticed someone had revived a thread from 2004!!!

Seriously??

I only have myself to blame for not reading more carefully....

:crying:

multidon

Dec-20-2015, 11:14am

This sort of thing happens here from time to time. Usually it's because someone used the search function to research information on a certain topic. The search turns up threads old and new.

Petrus

Dec-20-2015, 8:15pm

Oh well. Time is just another concept anyway. I don't mind seeing ancient threads revived as the reason is usually because someone has found the topic relevant at the present time for them and a lot of the topics here are perennially relevant (not always.) The only thing that gives me the howling fantods is realizing how much time has passed seemingly so quickly. :(

Anyway, I too like oval-hole F styles and agree that they are hard to find. There is the Eastman model above. Gretsch makes one (the Park Avenue) but it's a $600 import and I have no idea if it's decent or not. (If they made one in mahogany like my New Yorker, or just left on a matte finish instead of a ton of gloss, I suspect it could be a good low-end instrument.) IIRC, there are also models by J. Bovier and Old Wave in the mid $1k-1.5K range.