Black #7 & #8

[Mike Black]

I just finished up #7 & #8 the other day. Hope to have some nice pictures in the next day or so. Here are a few that I took this evening.

The #7 (the A4) has a Virzi and #8 (the A2z-ish) does not.

[Ed Goist]

Really, really nice work Mike!
Congratulations.

[mandolirius]

Really, really nice work Mike!
Congratulations.

Ed, while you're passing out congratulations save some for me. The A4 is headed for the "island paradise".

[Ed Goist]

Oh man, congratulations!
I can wait to hear you play that.

[Mike Black]

They both have Engelmann Spruce tops and Big Leaf Maple backs. The A4 has a compound radiused fingerboard and the A2z-ish has a straight 7 1/4" radius. They both have the single traverse bracing. I'll try to post sound clips of them both to A/B them soon.

[mandolirius]

Thanks. I've been without an oval hole for about a year and a half now. It'll be good to hear that sound again. I've got about half a dozen of those Nolan tunes under my belt now. I'm looking forward to playing them on the Black. They sound fine on the F5 but I think they were really made for an oval hole sound.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

I'm quite in awe of your work Michael. These look fantastic, and makes me feel like I just went back in time and had a privileged viewing of some new Gibson A2/A4 that were hot off of the Acoustic Engineer's work bench.

[GKWilson]

WHOAA...... Mike...... beautiful.
Can't wait to hear them. I'm sure they sound even better than they look.
Micheal [aka Mandolirius]. Welcome to the 'Black Mandolins Owners' family. We're some of the happiest people on earth.
Gary

[Tavy]

Beautiful work Mike!

I'm curious if you thought the Virzi had much/any effect?

[trevor]

I'm looking forward to some more photos..

[Scott Tichenor]

Mike brought these both by the house yesterday to test drive. Very, very nice! Great tone and playability.

[Ed Goist]

Thanks. I've been without an oval hole for about a year and a half now. It'll be good to hear that sound again. I've got about half a dozen of those Nolan tunes under my belt now. I'm looking forward to playing them on the Black. They sound fine on the F5 but I think they were really made for an oval hole sound.

Of course now you know that we are expecting some audio files of you playing N. Faulkner tunes on beautiful Black #7.
I can't wait to hear that...A great player, with a great oval-hole mandolin, playing the songs of a mandolin legend.
Not sure I can stand the anticipation! :)

[Mike Black]

I'm curious if you thought the Virzi had much/any effect?

I think that the Virzi has a lot of effect. With all things being equal, they sound like two different mandolins. The non-Virzi mandolin is louder and a beefier low G string like you would expect from a nice old Gibson. The Virzi mandolin has a more focused even sound with some projection that the non-Virzi doesn't have.

[Brent Hutto]

I've heard Lynn Dudenbostel play two of his early mandolins, one with and one without Virzi. But one had European and one Red Spruce for the top wood plus there were some not particularly subtle voicing differences as well. So the overall difference from all those factors including the Virzi was fairly profound. Hard to say what proportion was the Virzi, he said it made a big difference but the voicing and soundboard mattered at least as much. I really liked the Virzi one but I'm pretty sure a bluegrasser would have chosen differently based on the intensely percussive whoomp on the non-Virzi one.

Those were ff-hole mandolins at any rate. But it was an interesting up-close A/B comparison for me as I've only heard Virzi ones on recordings. At any rate, more nice work from Mike there. That's for sure.

[dcoventry]

All,

In the case of oval holes, is the Virzi still anchored to the top? It seems that the back would offer more room to position it for max effect? Fascinating.

[Steve-o]

Beautiful workmanship with a great vintage vibe there Mike. I too would love to hear sound clips, especially A/B.

[Mike Black]

All,

In the case of oval holes, is the Virzi still anchored to the top? It seems that the back would offer more room to position it for max effect? Fascinating.

Yes, the Virzi is attached to the top. It's in the same place as it would be for an ff-hole instrument. I just strongly believe that the Virzi has the most benefit in an oval hole instrument.

[dcoventry]

Mike,

Most benefit in an oval hole instrument? Fascinating. Would you care to offer brief reasoning? I'll really quite interested in the why's and wherefore's. This is when ignorance is bliss....any knowledge greatly enhances my understanding!


dave

[Denny Gies]

That dark one is just beautiful.

[Mike Black]

Mike,

Most benefit in an oval hole instrument? Fascinating. Would you care to offer brief reasoning?

dave

My belief is that when you have an ff-hole instrument, the ff-holes give you that projection and power. In oval hole instruments you tend to get the round warm sound without much projection. When you add the Virzi into the oval hole instrument, I believe that it gives you an in-between / best of both worlds sound with some of the ff-hole projection, while keeping the warmth of the oval hole.

On the other hand (from my experience) when you add a Virzi to an ff-hole instrument it adds more of that projection element and sounds great if you're standing in front of the instrument listening to it. But while actually playing it, the sound is too far out in front of you. And when the Virzi was introduced it was for that reason. To project out in an un-amplified concert hall as a soloist instrument. That's why they are usually taken out of the ff-hole instruments now, because people want to hear the sound of the instrument for themselves and not as a soloist in an orchestra.

And another thing that the Virzi does it balance or evens out the tone from string to string. Some people like that, some like the big open sound of the G.

My 2 cents. :)

[dcoventry]

Mike,

Thank you very much for that explanation. I won't belabor the point, but the scientist in my wonders how hanging that oval of wood effects the sound waves in such a way to INCREASE projection and not diffuse focus. I know it complicated as you already have wavefowms bouncing around the inside of an instrument, but they still have to vibrate surfaces and make their way out of the oval hole or f-holes.

I say once more and with feeling..............huh.


dave

[Rob Fowler]

Those are some amazing oval holes, Mike! GREAT!

[Tom C]

That's what an "A" should look like. Great jobs.

[Skip Kelley]

Mike, Nice work! Love those mandolins!

[Ken Sager]

Gorgeous work, Mike.

[Don Grieser]

Mike, those are some beautiful ovals. Well done, sir.

[Mike Black]

Here are some of the pictures that Anne from Mass Street Music was kind enough to send me.

[Mike Black]

Here are a couple more!

[mandolirius]

Of course now you know that we are expecting some audio files of you playing N. Faulkner tunes on beautiful Black #7.
I can't wait to hear that...A great player, with a great oval-hole mandolin, playing the songs of a mandolin legend.
Not sure I can stand the anticipation! :)

Oh, I'm pretty sure you can stand it. Besides, you've got the real versions by Nolan himself. I will try to do them justice but Nolan is Nolan. I've got all the right notes but there's something in his playing that is un-duplicatable.

[Mike Black]

Here is the A/B comparison of the two mandolins. It was recorded using my Zoom H2 and then I used my Cool Edit program to convert it to an MP3. The big surprise was how I could just see which mandolin was which by the spectrum analysis. They both had about the same volume. As I stated before the non-Virzi is a little louder, but from the spectrum analysis, you just see it as peaks that jump a little higher than the Virzi mandolin. The Virzi mandolin has a more even and consistent spectrum analysis.

[Mike Black]

Sorry for all the excessive posting. Here is a video I also did on the Flip.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6KwwE5LpvM&feature=share

[dcoventry]

Whoa. The A4 with the Virzi is unreal. That is some cool and crystaline tone right there. that is a GREAT learning tool.

Plus, cool tie dye in the back ground.

[Mike Snyder]

Yes, I find this excessive. Makes me feel excessively unhappy that I didn't get in on this when I had the option. Keep it up, you'll get a reputation, Mike. I suppose, since these belong to some lucky stiffs, that you won't be hauling them to Oxford for the Napawalla Acoustic shindig.

[Ed Goist]

Here is the A/B comparison of the two mandolins...snip...


The first mandolin in the test is the Verzi mandolin, the second the non-Verzi.
Both mandolins sound fantastic, but I think the Verzi mandolin sounds noticeably rounder and much "less tight".
If I'm right, do I win a Black A4 with a Verzi? :grin:
Oh, by the way, great playing Mike.

[Brent Hutto]

Sure enough, I think the Virzi either takes a way a bit of the oval-ness or adds a bit of ff-hole-ness to the sound. I think Mike made the comment early in the thread that it's a way of sort of splitting the distance between oval and ff-hole characteristics. If that was the intent I think it was a success.

Not sure I join everyone in loving the Virzi one over the non-Virzi. I kind of like the extra girth to the lower and midrange notes on the non-Virzi A2z, myself. But the Virzi A4 sound very, very sweet and complex for sure. They both sound a lot like what I think of as a Mike Black mandolin!

If I were buying a single Mike Black instrument I'd get the Virzi one. If I already had an ff-hole A5 (or something like that :)) I'd go with the non-Virzi for more oval-hole goodness.

[Mike Black]

The first mandolin in the test is the Verzi mandolin, the second the non-Verzi.

Sorry Ed, It's the other way around. The first one was the Non-Virzi and the second was the Virzi.

You almost won that Mandolin. :grin:

[Ed Goist]

I was only off by one! :grin:
Congratulations again, Mike.
Those are two beautiful and wonderful sounding mandolins.

[michaelpthompson]

I never heard of a Virzi until about five minutes ago, but after watching your video I certainly don't buy the story that they're some weird affectation that should be removed from any respectable mandolin. I rather liked the Virzi one better in the video. Both mandolins have a wonderful sound, but there seemed to be more fullness, and maybe a bit more sustain to the Virzi one IMO anyway.

[GKWilson]

Dang. I knew the answer, but I didn't know there was a prize.
Thanks for the demonstration Mike. It answered a lot of questions.
I like the even clean tones of the Virzi. But, I think I would opt for
the edgier A2. My address is..............
[Feel free to give us more clips]
Gary

[mandolirius]

Sure, keep making videos with my mandolin, Mike. I'll just be waiting......patiently.......no hurry, you know, I'm just chillin' here on the island paradise.

[mandolirius]

I never heard of a Virzi until about five minutes ago, but after watching your video I certainly don't buy the story that they're some weird affectation that should be removed from any respectable mandolin. I rather liked the Virzi one better in the video. Both mandolins have a wonderful sound, but there seemed to be more fullness, and maybe a bit more sustain to the Virzi one IMO anyway.

To be fair, the theory that Virzis were not a good idea and should be removed was all to do with F5 mandolins, if I'm not mistaken. I don't know how much precedence there even is for oval holes with Virzis.

To be honest, my instinct (because of the stories) was to say no when Mike suggested it. But I didn't really know why. The stories had conditioned me, I guess. I recall corresponding with Rolph Gerhardt when I had my Phoenix and his thoughts that X-bracing is a great idea - for oval hole mandolins. I'd had an X-braced oval hole and it was a great mandolin so I figured this might be a similar kind of thing.

Also, I'm not a builder or even a backyard carpenter. I don't own a single woodworking tool. That made me think I should just describe the sound I was looking for and let the guy with the tools figure out how to get it.

[Jill McAuley]

I am now the owner of Black #8, and let me tell you lads and lasses, it plays as good as it looks! It's one of the nicest oval hole mandolins I've ever played, and looking at the workmanship, it's difficult to believe that it was only Mike's #8! I wasn't expecting to add an oval A to the herd just now, what with waiting on the A5 that Jim Hilburn is building me, I reckoned that perhaps an oval A from Mike Black might be a purchase I'd make a wee bit further down the line, but I was made an offer I couldn't refuse, so I think my wee herd will be complete once the Hilburn A5 arrives later in the year. Can't wait to take a photo of the two of them side by side!

Cheers,
Jill

[Ed Goist]

Jill - This is fantastic news!
I can not wait to hear you play that mandolin! Please post a video, or two, or seven, soon.
I know it was very difficult for you to sell your Weber Custom Vintage Oval, and I am so glad you have replaced it with such a beautiful, premium, oval hole mandolin.
This is the best mandolin related news I have heard in a long time.
Bravo and Congratulations!

[mtucker]

I wasn't expecting to add an oval A to the herd just now, what with waiting on the A5 that Jim Hilburn is building me, I reckoned that perhaps an oval A from Mike Black might be a purchase I'd make a wee bit further down the line
did you rob a bank? :grin:

[Jill McAuley]

When it comes to musical instruments I have zero common sense.

Actually, you could just say that I have no common sense period full stop. But sure I'm harming no one but myself, and I don't consider it harm whatsoever!!

Cheers,
Jill

[mtucker]

:grin:...well, you certainly know how to play it and it sounds strong in the clip, so i'm sure you'll do it justice....its got the looks..enjoy!

[GKWilson]

Jill. You are most welcome to a small ,but very happy, group of Black Mandolin owners.
[clip PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE]
Gary

[Jill McAuley]

This month has been really hectic for me - I've been covering for my boss at one of my part time jobs, plus trying to rent out 3 vacant apartments in the building I manage, things should calm down in about a week and I'll definitely post some clips then!

Cheers,
Jill

[SkitownPicker]

Awesome mandos! Did you make the pickguards?

[Mike Black]

I am now the owner of Black #8, and let me tell you lads and lasses, it plays as good as it looks! It's one of the nicest oval hole mandolins I've ever played, and looking at the workmanship, it's difficult to believe that it was only Mike's #8! I wasn't expecting to add an oval A to the herd just now, what with waiting on the A5 that Jim Hilburn is building me, I reckoned that perhaps an oval A from Mike Black might be a purchase I'd make a wee bit further down the line, but I was made an offer I couldn't refuse, so I think my wee herd will be complete once the Hilburn A5 arrives later in the year. Can't wait to take a photo of the two of them side by side!

Cheers,
Jill

Congratulations!!!! I was wondering if it was you who had it now. I'm glad you're enjoying it. Now you can mark off one of your wish list mandos :) I can't wait to hear it played in more of your videos.

[Mike Black]

Awesome mandos! Did you make the pickguards?

Thanks! Yes, I made the pickguards too.

[Jill McAuley]

Congratulations!!!! I was wondering if it was you who had it now. I'm glad you're enjoying it. Now you can mark off one of your wish list mandos :) I can't wait to hear it played in more of your videos.

Trust me, it's going to be in a lot of videos - I haven't been able to put it down since it got here! You do great work sir!

Cheers,
Jill

[Stephen Porter]

# 8 is for sale on the classifieds and I'm interested. I know this is an old thread, but can anyone fill in the the time period from Aug 2011 till now? Thanks!

[mrmando]

Well, let's see ... I worked a lot, took vacations to Oregon and Canada with the family, went to Va. for the bro-in-law's funeral, half my bluegrass band moved away to Florida so I joined a symphony, bought some mandolins, sold some mandolins ...

If the Black A2Z in the classifieds is anything like Rosie, the A2Z I used to own, it's a lotta mandolin for the money.

[Stephen Porter]

Well, let's see ... I worked a lot, took vacations to Oregon and Canada with the family, went to Va. for the bro-in-law's funeral, half my bluegrass band moved away to Florida so I joined a symphony, bought some mandolins, sold some mandolins ...

If the Black A2Z in the classifieds is anything like Rosie, the A2Z I used to own, it's a lotta mandolin for the money.

Ha, ha.... ;-)

I take it your A2Z was a vintage Gibson.... if you can listen to the clips of the Black #8 in the thread, I'd like your take on how it does compare with Rosie.

TIA.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

I was fortunately enough to have it in my possession for much of 2012, until I could no longer afford to. I wish I could tell you that it had travelled the world with me and together we did some incredible performances, but mostly I played it (a lot) in the privacy of my own home.

Mike really knows what he's doing, and it's hard to believe this is only his 8th. It's the best oval hole mandolin I've heard by far, and it made every vintage oval A I had before and since sound weak. However, I have not been lucky enough to have played an A2Z or a top of the heap snakehead, so I can't give you a in person comparison.

I still miss it, and wish I could bring it home. But such is life.

[mrmando]

I take it your A2Z was a vintage Gibson.... if you can listen to the clips of the Black #8 in the thread, I'd like your take on how it does compare with Rosie.
What I hear in the clip is a new mandolin with new strings. I think it performs well in the clip, although not a whole lot is being asked of it there. It's difficult for me to compare a very new instrument with a vintage one. I hear the beginnings of the sweetness I associate with an A2Z, but I'd want to know how this mandolin responds when the strings are broken in and someone puts it through a few more paces. How does it sound going from loud to soft? How does it respond to tremolo? What about actually playing a tune on it? How about using a few different rhythms and pickstrokes on those chords? Etc., etc.

[Stephen Porter]

What I hear in the clip is a new mandolin with new strings. I think it performs well in the clip, although not a whole lot is being asked of it there. It's difficult for me to compare a very new instrument with a vintage one. I hear the beginnings of the sweetness I associate with an A2Z, but I'd want to know how this mandolin responds when the strings are broken in and someone puts it through a few more paces. How does it sound going from loud to soft? How does it respond to tremolo? What about actually playing a tune on it? How about using a few different rhythms and pickstrokes on those chords? Etc., etc.

Excellent points. I've asked the seller if there are any new clips and answer is negatory. Since you appear to be quite discriminating about the sounds of these instruments I have what might be an off-the-wall question, or just another product of my inexperience. When I listen to the clips of these two Black's, I notice that there are all kinds of overtones when the note, or chord, during the sustain period when the sound starts to decay. In these clips it seems that one (or more) of the more discordant overtones seems to sustain longer than the fundamental, or more harmonious ones. (Gosh that sounds pretentious in a way...) It's just something I hadn't paid much attention to before and maybe it's just an artifact of the notes/chords being played. Or maybe it's the function of a new instrument that hasn't "opened up," or maybe that's just the way mando's function. I know back when I was making guitars some of the more adventurous/scientific makers around were working on tuning the acoustic chamber of the guitar to dampen some frequencies and emphasize others. I'm just trying to figure out whether this #8 has something "wrong" with it or not. In the very best guitars I've owner over the years, the overtones seemed to fade away more harmoniously. The instrument also may have been a little out of tune during those clips....I'm just confused.

Anyway, thanks for the input--I appreciate it.

STP

[Stephen Porter]

I was fortunately enough to have it in my possession for much of 2012, until I could no longer afford to. I wish I could tell you that it had travelled the world with me and together we did some incredible performances, but mostly I played it (a lot) in the privacy of my own home.

Mike really knows what he's doing, and it's hard to believe this is only his 8th. It's the best oval hole mandolin I've heard by far, and it made every vintage oval A I had before and since sound weak. However, I have not been lucky enough to have played an A2Z or a top of the heap snakehead, so I can't give you a in person comparison.

I still miss it, and wish I could bring it home. But such is life.

Thanks for that input. I'm pretty intrigued by it myself, although I'm tortured by newbie-doubts. It's reassuring to hear that others have had some experience with it and loved it. Maybe I'll get it and give you first crack at it if I ever want to move on ;-).

[Nick Gellie]

I have #17 Black mandolin with a Virzi installed. It is the A4 rather than A2Z but that is merely some cosmetic differences. I think it has a great sound. The trebles are clear and resonant. It has great projection.

I would go for it - it is better than other oval hole mandolin I have owned.

[jmagill]

Excellent points. I've asked the seller if there are any new clips and answer is negatory. Since you appear to be quite discriminating about the sounds of these instruments I have what might be an off-the-wall question, or just another product of my inexperience. When I listen to the clips of these two Black's, I notice that there are all kinds of overtones when the note, or chord, during the sustain period when the sound starts to decay. In these clips it seems that one (or more) of the more discordant overtones seems to sustain longer than the fundamental, or more harmonious ones. (Gosh that sounds pretentious in a way...) It's just something I hadn't paid much attention to before and maybe it's just an artifact of the notes/chords being played. Or maybe it's the function of a new instrument that hasn't "opened up," or maybe that's just the way mando's function. I know back when I was making guitars some of the more adventurous/scientific makers around were working on tuning the acoustic chamber of the guitar to dampen some frequencies and emphasize others. I'm just trying to figure out whether this #8 has something "wrong" with it or not. In the very best guitars I've owner over the years, the overtones seemed to fade away more harmoniously. The instrument also may have been a little out of tune during those clips....I'm just confused.

Anyway, thanks for the input--I appreciate it.

STP

I'd be very cautious about reading too much into a soundclip. Remember, you're hearing a recording and not the actual mandolin. I personally feel that there are so many variables in the recording and playback of soundclips that they are only useful in comparing to other soundclips.

In evaluating the subtleties in the sound of actual instruments, especially what they sound like to the player, whose ears are in a different position than where microphones are usually placed, their accuracy and usefulness are debatable.

If soundclips factor into your decision to buy or not, then caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).

[Stephen Porter]

I'd be very cautious about reading too much into a soundclip. Remember, you're hearing a recording and not the actual mandolin. I personally feel that there are so many variables in the recording and playback of soundclips that they are only useful in comparing to other soundclips.

In evaluating the subtleties in the sound of actual instruments, especially what they sound like to the player, whose ears are in a different position than where microphones are usually placed, their accuracy and usefulness are debatable.

If soundclips factor into your decision to buy or not, then caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).

Jim, good points. I think I'm suffering a bit from MAS already which, along with inexperience, AND the difficulties of judging from recordings in the first place don't offer much help. Overall, this instrument sounds pretty darn good to me.

[Jim Garber]

You really can't go by sound files to judge any instruments. Some people know how to record better than others, have bett4er equipment etc. Speak to the owner directly and see if you want to take a chance. Most sellers in the classifieds will honor an approval period and it would only cost you time and money to ship it back if you didn't like it.

Oops! the other Jim said what I wanted to... oh well.

[fatt-dad]

Oh, I'm looking forward to playing #8! I just sold my '23 A2Z and will enjoy challenging my memory!

Full report in a month or so.

Thanks Gary!

f-d

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Oh, I'm looking forward to playing #8! I just sold my '23 A2Z and will enjoy challenging my memory!

Congrats f-d. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have. Looking forward to your report.

[GKWilson]

Nice grab fatt-dad.
Mike's A's are the B's knees.
Don Steirnberg loves my A2. Have fun.
Gary

[GKWilson]

sorry dbl post

[Mike Black]

Nice grab fatt-dad.
Mike's A's are the B's knees.
Don Steirnberg loves my A2. Have fun.
Gary

When did you get an A2? I thought you only had the octave and an A5. :)

[GKWilson]

OOPS. Didn't I mention i bought #12?
I ment to just show up in Carp Camp with the whole family someday.
Gary

[GKWilson]

Back to #8.
Hope Jill doesn't mind me using her video.
3tvSK4VLvVs

[fatt-dad]

Very nice video. Further justifying my impulsive purchase - ha!

f-d