Sound Hole Type

[LKN2MYIS]

Okay, still trying to put together (in my mind) the mando I
want to buy.

The question: I will play primarily blues and rag oriented stuff, some occasional folk, very little grass. I'm leaning
towards and F model with an oval hole.

Volume is not an overriding concern.

Any and all opinions are welcome.

[64lusso]

sounds like you are heading in the right direction tone wise. I don't know of too many F style oval holes being made these days so you could save yourself some money with a A style round hole model. I have been playing a oval hole Rigel G-95 al lot recently and while it might night cut in a big jam as well as a F hole model it has pretty respecatble volume and the tone is great, not quite a mushy as some old Gibson oval holes I have heard but with lots of sustain (compared to a F hole) and a warmer low end as most As have.

[LKN2MYIS]

Someone suggested to me ignoring the oval hole and checking out
Gibson F-9 as a good deal. I was also looking at Weber's.

Also getting some input to go with mahogany in lieu of maple and matte in lieu of lacquer since it won't really be a
bluegrass instrument.

Any thoughts?

[Eugene]

You should be watching this discussion (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=19600;).

[LKN2MYIS]

I am, and it is helpful.
Comments about mattte finish or mahogany?

[Eugene]

In the finish department, I think less mass lets the wood react more. You get a great many debates about the mysteries of varnish tone. I think the mystery is only that organic finishes (varnish or French polished shellac) are usually more lightly apllied than synthetics are in a mass-production setting.

Gross generalization alert: In general, I'm not fond of mahogany tone in mandolins. It's sound is very pleasant and intimate, but doesn't make itself too well heard amongst others. However, a really good luthier can make most things work by balancing the tonewood selection of the back against that of the soundboard, carefully thicknessing and graduating, bracing, etc.

[LKN2MYIS]

All good points, from what I've checked out.

I guess my concern is getting a good tone that isn't "bluegrassy"
from an "F" style mandolin.

Any tips, and I will be thankful. You are obviously well-versed
in this area.

[Eugene]

An oval-holed mahogany-backed Galatin by Weber is about as non-bluegrassy an F as can be had in modern times. Alternately, you could seek out a teens-era Gibson, perhaps an F-2.

...And on well-versed, you are way too kind.

[LKN2MYIS]

Someone suggested the Gibson F9, even though it is maple, as a
reasonably priced alternative. Between the Gallatin and the F9,
any thoughts?

And yes, indeed, well versed. I am a stranger in a strange land
here . . . . .

[Eugene]

I favor old Gibsons over new Webers and new Webers over new Gibsons, but there are plenty of exceptions (especially for the higher end stuff)...and my opinion shouldn't be weighed too heavily here. If it were, I'd have you playing an old bowlback!

[LKN2MYIS]

Sadly, my bowlback stomach won't allow for it.

The only mano I had was a 1916 Gibson "A" style, which I rarely
played, so it was sent on its journey.

I hear only good things about the Webers and the Gibson, so I
can assume I can't go too far off-base here.

Any on-line dealers you recommend over others? I hear FOTW is
very reliable.

[Eugene]

Sorry, I tend to deal directly with a number of characters, sometimes via eBay. #Most online vendors can be trusted to the degree their reputation suggests. #A local (local to me, at least) dealer with a decent selection of mandolins with whom I have dealt directly is Wildwood Music (http://www.wildwoodmusic.com/). #It can't hurt to call/e-mail to ask how they could compete. #I notice they have both an F-9 and a Gallatin in stock.

[LKN2MYIS]

I once bought a guitar from them about 8 years ago via mail.
Gibson Advanced Jumbo. The transacation was very smooth.

Thanks for the help!

[mandomick]

I'd like to suggest checking out Bill Bussmann's Old Wave Instruments site or call and talk to him. He builds lots of oval holes as well as F's in several different body styles. I have one of his oval hole mandolas and to my ears it sounds great and sustains forever.

Also, I'd never say not to try out the F9 especially if you're a bluegrasser but for the stuff you're playing I'm betting you'll like the sound of an oval hole. Plus, in my and many other's opinion, if you don't have to have the scroll you'll get the same volume and tone in an A style (or a C# style from Old Wave) while saving a nice chunk of cash.

[LKN2MYIS]

Thanks for the input. All opinions considered here.

Weber has a scrolled round hole that might fit the bill.
Any opinions?

[doanepoole]

I would save money and buy an A-style. #For blues, ragtime, and especially folk, I would recommend an oval-holed mando. #If you played say bluegrass or acoustic rock, or played with a large instrument ensemble, I'd lean toward f-holes for cutting power.

Old Waves are great, so are old Gibson A models...and old Gibson A's can still be had relatively cheap with 80-90 years of mojo to boot.

I have a Weber Apen 2 (flattop) that is the least played of my mandolins but it is a very warm, sweet sounding mandolin. #Without intending to flame anyone or to get flamed, the few Weber carved top maple-bodied mandolins I've played have sounded lackluster...I actually prefer their mahogany bodies.

Of course, the best advice is to go out and try a bunch of mandolins and just see what sound/feel/price ratio you prefer.

[Jim Garber]

Any on-line dealers you recommend over others?
If you are very particular and want a special sound I would try to get to a place that has a selection. We could sit here and describe an appealing sound but you evidentally have something in mind. Let us know about where you are located and perhaps someone can suggest stores to visit.

Also, I see that you also have your mind set on a F-style. That is all right, but be prepared to spend extra money for things that don't necessarily affect the sound.

Jim

[LKN2MYIS]

Understood. I live on Long Island, NY. Mando Bros. would have
the best selection. They are about 1 1/2 hrs. away through
NYC traffic.

[doanepoole]

I think going through the headache of NYC traffic would be worth the effort to get to try a large selection. Good mandos aren't cheap, and I wouldn't advise taking a shot in the dark, even with the help of the posters, because beauty is in the ears and hands of the beholder.

[LKN2MYIS]

I agree 100%. My task is to get as much info as possible
and narrow my choices. This way, when I shop, I have a focus.

If they don't sound 'me' at that point, I'll expand the search.
There are a LOT of mandolins out there!

[mandomick]

If you call the folks at Weber they can tell you what models any of their dealers in your area have on hand. I've owned 3 Webers previously (no ovals) and have no reservations about buying a 4th some day.

[Frank Russell]

LKN2MYIS - My first "good" mandolin was a Gallatin oval hole, and it was beautiful in every way. Just not what I ended up preferring (bluegrass mando.) I would highly recommend either an oval hole Gallatin or a Bitterroot oval hole. As for the F9, great mandolins, but as bluegrass as they get. The best suggestion I've heard so far is to check out Old Wave. The Gallatin may be more in your price range if used, but I have one of Bill's f-hole A's, and it is exceptional. Take a look at Buffalo Bros., they usually have some Gallatins and other used Webers. Frank

[LKN2MYIS]

Thanks to all. Lots of good suggestions.

[Jim Garber]

Unfortunately, except for top makers like Monteleone, Long Island is a desert when it comes to mandolins.

If you can make it to Manhattan (take the train to avoid traffic), try Matt Umanov's (moderate selection) in the Village and Rudy's (smaller selection) on 48th Street. Also, there is Lark Street in Teaneck, NJ.

Jim

[Tom C]

Mand Bros ---No traffic on saturdays.

LIE --->
Belt Parkway south ---->
Verrazano Bridge --->
Staten Island Expressway ---->
Clove Rd ------>
Forest Ave (make right and it is very close on your left)

From Oyster Bay area you can get there in under an hour. Put on a good CD and your there in no time.

[Bob DeVellis]

I'd make the trip to Mandolin Bros. or some place with a variety and give yourself a chance to listen to a bunch of things side-by-side. Trust your ears. The sound that you end up liking may not be what you think. The best example of this in my experience was playing a plain, well-worn Vega cylinder-back that looked to be rather over-priced. As I played other instruments in the shop, I just kept going back to that Vega. I ended up buying it and think that it was actually a bargain as far as its sound goes, although overpriced in terms of its "on paper" characteristics (e.g., model, condition). Although I generally like Vega cylinder-backs, this one was much better sounding than many others I've played. I very much doubt I would ever have bought this instrument (even at a lower price) if I hadn't had the chance to play it. I would've waited until one with a bit less wear came around, and it would have been a mistake. I've also had the opposite experience of playing a mandolin that I expected to dazzle me and that didn't pull any strong reaction out of me at all.

I would strongly recommend that you put prejudices about certain sounds aside and just really trust your ears and your hands. If it feels good and sounds good in a way that really stands out, it's probably the right instrument for you. It may very well end up being one of the brands you've had in mind, and that would be great. But if it's something altogether different, don't be put off by the fact that you thought you'd be getting an XYZ mandolin. Also, this may be the way to choose between an A and an F. If you really are objective about what sounds and feels best, then you can make a more objective judgment about how much more the looks of an F are worth to you. I have both and love both. But don't feel that an A is in any way inferior to an F. Some are, some aren't. I really wanted to own an F before I had one. I love the ones I have. But in retrospect, I feel I got lucky in that the particular F's I have happen to be as good or better than the comparable A's (like ones from the same builder) I've tried. But I don't think that's because of their shape, just good luck (or maybe sampling error). Get what's actually good, not what you expect to be good.

[LKN2MYIS]

Forget Umanov's. Their motto is "If you didn't pay too much,
you didn't buy it here".

Thanks for the direction, but my car definitely knows the
way to Mando Bros.!

[fatt-dad]

I would consider the Flatiron Artist A that is at Gruhn's right now. It's priced about right at $1700 or $1800.00 and I bet it's a great mandolin.

f-d

[Jim Garber]

Forget Umanov's. #Their motto is #"If you didn't pay too much,
you didn't buy it here".
If you are talking vintage, that probably is true. If you are talking new instruments, I think they are competitive, certainly with Mandolin Bros.

Jim

[LKN2MYIS]

Don't mean to be argumentative, but I disagree. Often their sale price is just off list.

The majority of times you can find the instruments at a lower cost
elsewhere. To their credit, however, they have excellent
vintage stuff - which you will pay top dollar for.

Mandolin Bros., as a rule, is more competitively priced.

[Jim Garber]

I guess things have changed then. I don't know how they can compete esp in NY.

Jim

[LKN2MYIS]

They get many people who can afford to go there.

A partial client list that I know of: Dylan, Richard Gere,
the Ramones (pre-death), Johnny Cash (also pre-death),etc.

They do have great instruments, just not competitively priced.

I also don't care for the concept of all the instruments being behind a counter and having to ask a sales person to see each one you would like to see.

They are pretty out of the way to the rest of the music shops,so a lot of 'celebs' go there for privacy, plus they stick them in a separate room and bring in their best instruments.

[LKN2MYIS]

Mand Bros ---No traffic on saturdays.

LIE --->
Belt Parkway south ---->
Verrazano Bridge --->
Staten Island Expressway ---->
Clove Rd ------>
Forest Ave (make right and it is very close on your left)

From Oyster Bay area you can get there in under an hour. Put on a good CD and your there in no time.
Off of Clove, you need to make a right on Bement, THEN the right onto Forest.

[PhilGE]

No financial interest here, but you might take a look at Willie's Red Diamond A-Oval. (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=11354&query=retrieval) Though I don't know Willie personally, I've "known" him for a while via CoMando and this message board and believe he's good on his word.

-Phil

[LKN2MYIS]

Thanks!

[Greg H.]

If I remember correctly (that's always a worthy question) you said you wanted an F model that DIDN'T have a bluegrass tone. If that is the case I think an F9 would probably write itself off the list as all the ones I've played have had a decidedly bluegrass tone. If you weren't near Mando. Bros. I think that would be an important decision making factor. However, as you're near to mandolin test-drive heaven it would make more sense for you to simply try all of them and decide what speaks to you (and if the answer is all of them then it's up to you to figure out who's speaking the loudest). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[LKN2MYIS]

Greg -

Thanks.
I believe that an extended MB visit is in the future. I'll pack
a sleeping bag!

[LKN2MYIS]

Greg -

Thanks.
I believe that an extended MB visit is in the future. I'll pack
a sleeping bag!