Phoenix Neoclassical

[gdae85]

Hello,
I have heard and overheard the fact that the model neoclassical is optimal with light gauge strings (which I personally dont like). Do you think this mandolin does not have the capability of holding strings of a heavier gauge http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif (J74's, FT74's in particular)?

Thanks! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[JGWoods]

The Phoenix website (http://www.phoenixmandolins.com/neoclassical.htm)says they are meant for extra lights, up to Tomastik Mediums...I have no personal experience with Phoenix mandos to comment on it.
best
jgwoods

[Eugene]

My experience with Phoenix is extremely limited; I've handled maybe three. #They seem well-built and sound very nice. #I'm not a great fan of the semi-outlandish design. #I will say I believe an old Gerhardt Unicorn A to be one of the nicest f-holed mandolins I've handled.

The Neoclassical is lightly built to be responsive to light strings. #I have no idea if it could structurally handle heavy strings, but I'm not certain why you'd want it to do so. #If you like the Phoenix line, why not pursue the Neobluegrass which is pretty much the same instrument, but built for heavy strings?

[Mandosecond]

As another owner, I would strongly advise against putting heavier gauge strings on a Neoclassical. The top thickness is designed for use with extra lights, as are the tone bars, both in design and placement. You risk damaging the instrument with thicker strings, and if you're the original owner the warrantee won't cover using strings larger than the recommended gauges.

As a red flag for the unwary (got this from Rolfe Gerhardt himself), the nut is cut for extra light gauges; thicker strings won't fit the stock slots. He's trying to tell you something by doing this.

For those who've never played a Neoclassical: they're amazingly loud strung with extra lights. That's because they're built for them. Want thicker strings? Trade your Neo for a Deluxe or a Bluegrass.

No need to take my word for any of this. Call 207-354-0397 during business hours (eastern time). A telephone conversation with Rolfe should confirm what I say here.

[addcourt]

As a current owner of a Neoclassical I wouldn't consider heavier gauge strings than the mfg recommends. These are very light weight instruments and respond beautifully to the lighter gauge strings. I can only second Mandosecond's words of wisdom.

[evanreilly]

"The Neo even has a warning label in it about using only extra-lights." from Rolfe Gerhardt hisownself!!!

They are simply poor made instruments! #No meat or Potatoes. #Weak!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Dave Caulkins]

Hmmm.. Mama Hen (Cluck, Cluck?)

You know, that is an incredibly ignorant and inflamatory reply - just because you prefer an instrument that embraces the standard, dare I say common-place, gauge of mando strings (medium-heavy) does not make your opinion on the quality of luthiery valuable. I have heard, other than your negative opinion, nothing but good things about the construction of Phoenix's instruments (and especially the neo-classical, one of the rare 'old school' mando builds). Not to mention that the luthier has been building for possibly longer than you have been playing the instrument.

If you don't like classical instruments, which I'm sure a number of BG players don't (I really like BG, honestly, but I don't play it myself - and I'm often confused by the lack of open mindedness from a few players of such a marginal style of music), than just leave your opinion out. I'm sure you'd hate the Vegas I love, and I really could care less. There is more than one way to build an instrument, and more than one style of music. Perhaps you should consider this.

Not to be a jerk, but come on now...

Dave

I like and play all kinds of music. #A great mandolin will play it all. #A builder should not have to put a warning label as to what strings are recomended. #An instrument should be built to withstand the test of time. #

I must agree with the cluck cluck! #Every Pheonix I have play has been light in both tone and volume. #Regardless of string gauge or model. #Just one man's opinion. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dave Caulkins]

Hey Bob,

I appreciate the more open tone, I'm really a pretty nice (and definatelty open minded) guy.

However, the recordings I've heard of Phoenix (especially the Neo-Classical in question) mandolins have represented a more traditional tone to me (think Cristofaro not Monroe). I know alot of players dig these instruments. I personally think Gibsons are over-rated by a few thousand dollars (if I played BG primarily, my fingers would never come off my Flatiron A5 artist). My Vega Mandola wouldn't except medium to heavy gauge strings, is it a dog? No, I don't think so. Perhaps it is a different century, yes, and maybe we should be more in favor of a universal instrument. Nevertheless, I don't think the general public would like me playing Elvis tunes on my Warlock guitar. Specific instruments for genres isn't always bad, if you know what you're getting into. 'nuff said.

Dave

[Mandosecond]

Hmmm.....by that reasoning, shouldn't a great car be able to do 0-60 in 4.9 seconds, be supremely roomy and comfortable, corner like it's on railroad tracks, tow an 8000 pound load and get 40 mpg?

I guess my '89 Schoenberg Soloist guitar, which carries an explicit warning not to use string gauges thicker than lights, is just not "built to withstand the test of time". I'll just have to chance it.

I agree with you about the difference between an open mind and a hole in the head, though.

[Eugene]

I like and play all kinds of music. #A great mandolin will play it all. #A builder should not have to put a warning label as to what strings are recomended. #An instrument should be built to withstand the test of time.
If this were true, there would only be need and demand for one breed of mandolin. #For example, the tone expected of a bluegrass mandolin that needs to produce a strongly percussive chop doesn't necessarily have much to do with the tone expected of a duo-style art-music solo. #Of course you can play whatever music you'd like on whatevr instrument you have on hand. #You are even permitted to enjoy it. #However, there is a reason most professional bluegrass players favor a particular style of instrument and most professional classical mandolinists/recording artists play something very different.

I doubt many would criticize the quality of craftsmanship inherent in the vintage output of the Martin shop. #If I put D'Addario J74s on my 1908 Martin mandolin, the neck would be utterly wrecked in short order; it was built for very different strings at a time that wire of J74 gauge was used for towing cable. #I won't even put J74s on my pre-Loar Gibson. #If I pulled strings from a Dreadnaught guitar and put them on my 19th-c. guitars (still wonderfully functional after standing "the test of time")...or even my modern classical guitar...it wouldn't be long before the bridge would be ripped off. #There is nothing wrong with specialized instruments designed to be responsive to different gauges of strings for different styles of music.

[neal]

Y'know, sometimes the folks around here just make me shake my head. # If a mandolin, guitar, or car was built for light, medium, or premium, and I liked the instrument/car, I would use what was recommended by the builder. # Knowing how it was built, and for what reasons, I wouldn't question it. #Just wouldn't question it. #I would use what it was built for. #

Umm, boys/girls, it's a "neo CLASSICAL". #That means if you want the chop and the testosterone, get one made for your style music.

Hey, Eugene, #that Martin sure has stood the "test of time", eh?

[evanreilly]

As an owner of two Phoenix mandolins and a very long-time friend of the builder, Rolfe Gerhardt, I'll state that he is a very competent and careful luthier/builder. His instruments are hardly "... simply poor made instruments! #No meat or Potatoes. Weak" #Rolfe spends a great deal of time investigating innovations and his output of over 350 mandolins attest to the success of his skills. #One should consider the shops which sell his instruments; they aren't the 'bargain basement' music shops.
You may not like the tone, but they are excellent instruments.
The sheer number of positive posts about Phoenix mandolins on the 'Cafe in of itself shows how shallow the above flip characterization of Pheonix mandolins is.

[jmkatcher]

I've tried to ignore the shills for a certain luthier when they've intruded in other topics, but actively attacking another luthier with an excellent reputation is beyond the pale. If one is interested in a Phoenix instrument (and I'd very much like to try a Neoclassical), one should take their ignorant blather with the consideration it deserves, i.e. none.

[jim simpson]

I had the pleasure of playing a Bluegrass model a couple of weeks ago. I was truly impressed with it. The fit, finish, and Oh yeah, the Sound was all there. Not presently in the market for another mandolin but we could all use just one more. In that case I guess I would like one after all. Only the lack of funds will keep me in control.

Hey....Play what makes you happy....

[Strado Len]

The neoclassical Phoenix is built for classical mandolinists, who prefer the feel and sound of very light strings. The woods and bracing are lighter and thinner. Just as it would be very unwise to put heavy strings on a bowlback, I would not risk putting J-74's on this mandolin.


If you are looking for a bluegrass mandolin, this may not be the right instrument.

[generankin]

I like and play all kinds of music. #A great mandolin will play it all. #A builder should not have to put a warning label as to what strings are recomended. #An instrument should be built to withstand the test of time. #

Hmmm ... my Alvarez-Yairi DY-77, a copy of a prewar D-28 herringbone, has a label in it telling me the max gauge of strings to use, and they ain't the sort of bridge cables you see on more recent D-28s. #It sounded better than any Martin (short of a D-45) when I bought it over 30 years ago (and paid 1/3 what they wanted for a Martin D-28). #I guess it has managed to withstand the test of time quite well, TYVM.

[Lee]

Puttin' heavies on a NeoClassical would be akin to puttin' hiking boots on a ballerina, mittens on a surgeon, or snow treds on a NASCAR, if that's more your style of thinking.
"Semi-outlandish design"?? Nothing could be more so than the curlycues and points on an F's headstock. #
Rolphe's Phoenix mandolins deserve many more accolades then he receives around here. They occupy a unique pinnacle of excellence.
Hah, "bridge cables", I love it!

[PaulD]

(Pickin Bob @ Dec. 04 2004, 23:57)
I like and play all kinds of music. A great mandolin will play it all. A builder should not have to put a warning label as to what strings are recomended. An instrument should be built to withstand the test of time.
I dunno... I think I'm with Bob and CluckCluck on this one even though I have no experience with the instrument. Along that line, any of you with that flimsy Flatiron pancake mandolin that was built in the '80s and designed for light gauge strings should send them to me for proper disposal. Same thing any of those old bowl-back mandos... or even these Phoenix Neoclassical, or any other instrument built for light gauge strings. I'll will do this as a public service with no expectation of compensation in any form, because that's the kind of guy I am! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

As an open minded individual I also like and play all kinds of music... both Country and Western... and agree that a good mandolin should be suffcient for either of them. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Paul Doubek

[Tom C]

"all kinds of music... both Country and Western"
-A quote from Blues Brothers at Bob's right?

[PaulD]

Tom,
I had forgotten where I first heard that, but you're right. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

pd

[neal]

Hey....Play what makes you happy....
Bob, just apologize, say you were wrong calling Phoenix an underbuilt, poorly built mandolin... because you did agreed with Cluckwhatever.

"A great mandolin will play it all"
So then you're a music snob who would think #Eugene's Martin bowlback is ####, because, it isn't gonna do well playing in a BG jam. #You need to grow some more "ear", there's different kinds of music that need different kinds of tools. #A Neoclassical is meant for different hands than yours, or mine for that matter. #

But in the right hands...oh my...

I would like to apologize in advance to anyone that is offended by my defense of this particular mandolin, but to me, it just shows ignorance to disregard a whole segment of instrument build because it's just not made for the type or style of music one plays. #Me? #I wouldn't know what to do with a bowlback, it would be fun to have one, but which one? #I'd love the Phoenix because it is a well built instrument, and don't you just love those well built instruments?

[shag]

I bought a Phoenix Neoclassical 2 months ago, and the sound, beauty and workmanship far exceeded my expectations.

I am sorry to say that I think that some folks enjoy egging on/inciting others.

You should know that the answer to the initial question is available right on the builder's website.
Very easy info to obtain.
Also when I was thinking about purchasing one, I called no less than 3 times, and Rolfe graciously and patiently answered my questions.
...Even though he knew that I was planning on buying a used one, i.e., no money in it for him.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one.
He's a great builder w/ a deservedly excellent reputation, and I was pleasantly surprised by his integrity and honesty.

If you're looking for a bluegrass instrument, consider his neobluegrass and bluegrass.

Thanks again, Rolfe!

[PaulD]

I was going to leave my remarks to my sarcastic comments above, but thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth. I don't have familiarity with the Phoenix line, but to look at the Web site they look wonderful. That doesn't tell me if they are "built to withstand the test of time" or how they sound. It sounds like they have a strong reputation... I'd like to play one sometime.

I do have experience with my Flatiron 1SH pancake which is built for light gauge strings and has had a great range and volume since it was born in 1981. I've heard plenty of people rave about that line of instruments, which in later years apparently came with a sticker saying to only use light gauge strings. I will probably never part with that instrument, even though I now have a couple Gibsons.

I also have an old bowlback that has been a "decorator" item for years but I've been meaning to glue up some cracks and string it up with lt. gauge strings. Same thing for an old Banjolin that needs some TLC. The variety in tones/textures would be a riot to play with whether I'm playing Country or Western. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

When I read this thread I figured Mama Hen's comments were a flame pure and simple... there was nothing substantive to back up her statements. I figured it was just meant to get a rise, which it did. Pickin Bob tried to qualify his "opinion", and it didn't look as if the intent was to flame the forum. It came off as a very simplistic, closed-minded viewpoint... which is particularly ironic given his tagline.
There is a difference between an open mind and a hole in the head!

Oh well... there's one (or two) in every crowd. I suspect that Chris K got his question answered and it sounds like he needs to choose between living with light gauge strings or purchasing a different instrument. Good luck with it.

Paul Doubek

[JimD]

I don't play Bluegrass -- though I play several other styles (classical, new music, jazz, ethnic styles) on several instruments.

I had played several different mandolins and tried scores of others before I found the Neoclassical. I haven't looked back -- its tone suits the styles I play perfectly and its volume has balanced small ensembles and orchestras (both amplified theater pit orchestras and unamplified but large symphony orchestras). My previous mandos couldn't compete without amplification.

Light stringing? Big deal -- it is still the best made mandolin I've played. Heavier stringing and heavier construction don't respond to my needs as a player.

To join in the chorus of previous responses: If the Neo doesn't suit you, try Rolfe's Bluegrass model or find one that suits your playing. Don't just assume that all "good" mandos need to be the same.

Funny how chauvinism rears its head when it comes to musical styles...

[addcourt]

Amen, Jim--nicely put. Neoclassicals are excellent in every respect. Regards, Mike

[generankin]

Hah, "bridge cables", I love it!

Back in the '60s, when playing in Washinbgton Square, I put heavies on my D-28 and picked with a 10-penny nail. #Only way I could be heard above the damned banjo players. #Didn't do the top any good at all, though.

Oh, and it turned out that it was a Good Thing I couldn't be heard above the banjo players. #They were a whole lot better than me (one went on to play with Mr. Monroe Hisself).

[otterly2k]

I spent the better part of an afternoon in the Mandolin Bros. store on Staten Island... pulling from the wall one mandolin after another... brand new Breedloves, vintage Gibsons, F's and A's and just sampling my little heart out. I'm sure I played at least 30 different instruments at every level and price range.

The one mandolin that absolutely stood out to me from the rest (including some really fancy/expensive ones) was the Phoenix Neoclassical. Now, I play folk music and Celtic... am not a BG power player, but I loved the light feel of this instrument (almost felt like a violin in the hands), the ease of play, the amazing responsiveness to subtle differences in fingering and picking, and the quality of the tone. Personally, I like the design (and find F scrolls far more silly!). If I was looking to buy a new mando right now, I'd be delighted to land one of these!

Different tools for different uses and for different users. I can respect that this wouldn't be the right instrument for every player or purpose.

But just what is the point of making global trashing statements about ANY luthier or product? please, people.

KE

[Eugene]

Hey, Eugene, #that Martin sure has stood the "test of time", eh?
Sorry, I've been out of town. To answer, "indeed."

[gdae85]

I think I am developing tendonitis in two of my left hand fingers. There is a big chance that is because of lousy set up and mandolin. I am only 19 and I fear very bad things. For example, not being able to play anymore.
I have been giving serious considerations to switching to a mando like this one. Light strings may be my only hope. I have tried some 80/20 a while back and didnt like them. They felt great on the left hand but seemed to soft on the pick. I dont know how this is going to turn out.