question on a Kay mandolin

[?john?]

on my Kay mandolin the head has Kay in a circle
where would i find a serial number? this is my father in laws mandolin its an "a" style body with "f" holes...pick Gard is turtle shell the tuning pegs are singles with back side hexagon shaped.fret board has black dots body is light wood
I'm trying to date it for him as it was his dads
any help would be appreciated
Thanks John

[Jimmie]

One of the Kay admirers here can probably give you a ballpark date, but we'd need photos of the entire instrument, and especially the headstock.

[Kerry Krishna]

It sounds like a 50s model.

[Randi Gormley]

My Strad has a date stamped inside it -- you might have something similar. At least on mine, it's on the back panel sort of opposite the bottom of the fretboard and you can see it if you get a strong light shining through the f-hole exactly right.

[MikeEdgerton]

Kay mandolins were not serialized or date stamped. You will on occasion find production numbers stamped inside but nobody has ever been able (to my knowledge) to decipher what they mean. The only way to date these instruments is to match them with a catalog page if one is available or try and date them by the tuners or other distinguishing marks. You can get close but not exact. It's always good to post pictures of the front and the back including a closeup of the back of the headstock. What you describe could be anything from an American made Kay to an imported Kay.

By the way, most Strad-O-Lins did not have date stamps inside. Most Harmony mandolins did.

[eastmountain]

I'm wondering about the age of my latest Kay (or perhaps Kay Kraft) A-style as well. it has the same style headstock as my Kay Kraft venetian mandolin (I think they call it the "ice cream cone" headstock), a solid spruce top (pressed, not carved) with segmented F-holes and what I assume is laminated sides and back of curly maple. When did Kay Kraft or Stromberg-Voisinet start making A-style mandos? Did they make them at the same time as the Venetian style, or did they only make them when they discontinued the Venetian?

[MikeEdgerton]

Again, the only way to date a Kay instrument is by catalog pages and the equipment. They made similar mandolins for many years. Post a picture and if someone has a catalog pag they'll jump in. Most of the Kay information floating around is questionable at best. If we get images posted and someone actually has a page then we start the doumentation process.

[eastmountain]

Again, the only way to date a Kay instrument is by catalog pages and the equipment. They made similar mandolins for many years. Post a picture and if someone has a catalog pag they'll jump in. Most of the Kay information floating around is questionable at best. If we get images posted and someone actually has a page then we start the doumentation process.

Here is what I have.

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/190305_1694212199976_1377946907_1654238_6480326_n. jpg
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/197413_1694235320554_1377946907_1654367_4949529_n. jpg
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/188728_1694234960545_1377946907_1654365_5654305_n. jpg

[MikeEdgerton]

The shrunken tuner buttons would point to the 40's-50's. There's a small blurb about the problem at the top of this (http://www.frets.com/fretspages/luthier/Technique/Tuners/NewButton/newbutton.html) page on Frank Ford's www.frets.com. For whatever reason the plastic used by Kluson (and perhaps other manufacturers) in that era just deteriorated. Earlier and later buttons didn't have the problem. I've had a few Kays like that one, made for the trade with no labels or marking. They were laminate (ply) and were prone to have loose neck joints. Kay actually advertised their laminated instruments as if it was a feature.

[DerTiefster]

eastmountain: Is that a celluloid(?) binding and heel cap on that mandolin? I recently found one in grossly poorer shape but otherwise similar form. I have snapped pics but don't yet have them ready for posting. The back on the one I have looks like curly maple but I haven't done a wipe on the inside of the back to see whether it is laminate or solid. The sides on mine -appear- to be solid, as is the top. The headstock (ice cream cone describes it pretty well, but it also reminds me of a flaming match-head) on mine has a rosewood(?) veneer apparently matching the fretboard color, but the body is blond like yours.

How did your restoration go? It's half a year later. How does it sound? What did you do for a bridge? Are your tuners serviceable? and all that.... I'm hoping that mine can be restored, but I'm far from certain.

[eastmountain]

Here are shots of that particular Kay mandolin. I'd say the restoration was a success. I learned a lot (I'm still a newbie builder) and salvaged a junker to give someone a nice player for a few more decades. It ain't a Gibson, but what is?
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/229097_1775177864067_1377946907_1743909_6322648_n. jpg
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/229262_1775178184075_1377946907_1743911_6101948_n. jpg
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/216386_1775178264077_1377946907_1743912_7515244_n. jpg
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/227620_1775179704113_1377946907_1743916_7099132_n. jpg

[eastmountain]

I've since been bitten by the Kay bug and did a couple other mandolin projects (one a resonator conversion and one a Kay Kraft Venetian with oval soundhole that is is my personal mandolin) and a '55 Kay archtop guitar.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/320856_2040336932878_1377946907_2061609_2993775_n. jpg
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/196366_1694234360530_1377946907_1654362_6881188_n. jpg
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/199994_1694233720514_1377946907_1654360_3421517_n. jpg
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/189910_1694225960320_1377946907_1654317_6256776_n. jpg
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/223647_2004335032853_1377946907_2016145_5525913_n. jpg

[DerTiefster]

eastmountain: what did you do in the way of 1) cleanup and 2) finish? How closely did you try to reproduce the bridge? I have a broken mandolin of this type, looking identical but for a rosewood headstock veneer matching the fretboard. Same .5:7.10:12 fret markers with double dots on the 12 instead of singles on 3/7/12 and doubles on 5/10/15 I see on many others here. Your headstock is stained rather than veneered? The original pic seems to show blond, and I'm guessing. Mine has 7 of 8 tuner bushings present. Edgerton offered that the buttons didn't look "shrunken," probably pre-WWII, although he said something like probably "mid '40s or older". What did you learn about the wood? Mine has pretty well demonstrated its solid top by splitting along the grain lines there, but I don't know about the back yet. Sides -appear- solid, or have a -very- thick outer layer. How is your binding holding up? Gobs of questions related to whether I can fix mine up adequately.

The thread where I posted pics is
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?77734-Unlabeled-%28Kay-%29-A-style-with-beautiful-wood-and-a-binding

[eastmountain]

eastmountain: what did you do in the way of 1) cleanup and 2) finish? How closely did you try to reproduce the bridge? I have a broken mandolin of this type, looking identical but for a rosewood headstock veneer matching the fretboard. Same .5:7.10:12 fret markers with double dots on the 12 instead of singles on 3/7/12 and doubles on 5/10/15 I see on many others here. Your headstock is stained rather than veneered? The original pic seems to show blond, and I'm guessing. Mine has 7 of 8 tuner bushings present. Edgerton offered that the buttons didn't look "shrunken," probably pre-WWII, although he said something like probably "mid '40s or older". What did you learn about the wood? Mine has pretty well demonstrated its solid top by splitting along the grain lines there, but I don't know about the back yet. Sides -appear- solid, or have a -very- thick outer layer. How is your binding holding up? Gobs of questions related to whether I can fix mine up adequately.

The thread where I posted pics is
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?77734-Unlabeled-%28Kay-%29-A-style-with-beautiful-wood-and-a-binding

I cleaned it up with naptha and a Scotch Brite pad. There were places that had exposed bare wood, so I needed to re-seal it but didn't want to strip the old patina away. I hand rubbed it with Tru Oil and then buffed it with lamb's wool. The bridge was just one I had lying around from a cheap Asian import. I didn't have a Kay bridge to compare to, so I didn't even try. I put sand paper face up on the top at the bridge area and sanded the bridge feet to fit the arch of the top. My Kay had Kluson tuners but the buttons had crumbled. After pricing replacements, I finally decided to make buttons out of oak dowels. Mine had a muddy opaque stain on the headstock, so I just sanded it down and restained it. The molding and heel cap were a beautiful translucent tortoise shell celluloid. I assumed from other Kays I'd seen that the pickguard (missing) would be translucent tortoise shell too. Someone made me a replacement, which I had to thicken up with a piece of clear acrylic. As far as the woods go, my top was solid but steam pressed into the arch rather than carved. Back and sides were, I think, ply, but I'm not sure. I had a 50s Kay that I cut a big hole in (the resonator conversion) and was surprised to find a solid top there as well. I had assumed it would be ply, partly because I had read comments about Kay's use of ply and partly because I thought I saw layers at the F holes. It turned out the F holes had reinforcement patches (I assume to prevent splitting when they were carved/drilled out.) The top was solid and steam pressed to arch.

Fret dots varied at Kay over the years. The fretboard on the resonator I made myself, and chose not to use as many dots as the original. I dug the dots out of the old fretboard and reglued them into the new one and sanded it down before fretting.