Right Hand Woes

[cornishpixie]

Hi folks! I'm a newbie (as in five lessons in) mandolin player at the ripe old age of 41.
I picked up acoustic guitar as a teenager and it came relatively easily to me, but I've always loved the sweet sound of the mando. My teacher has been complimentary of my left-hand dexterity, rhythm and natural "feel" for the instrument, but he keeps pointing out issues with my right hand. I tend to tense up when I pick and not hold my hand in the loose fist shape that's recommended and there's way to much wrist action going on. He's demonstrated that I need to move more with my arm and less with my wrist. I try to do this, and while it feels more relaxed, I'm botching up my picking.
Frustrated!! Am I just expecting too much too soon? Does it just take time and pratice to find that "sweet spot" in your posture? Any recommendations/advice welcome... and thanks in advance for the input. ;)

[barney 59]

Gee, I don't know I need to play with less of my arm and more of my wrist.

[300win]

My opinion your teacher is wrong. That wrist needs to be limber as a dish-rag. That will allow you to be more fluid in your picking. I've been playing a long time, and wished my wrist was still limber like it used to be, but it is what it is. There are differant ways to play, but everybody I ever seen that was good on mando had a very loose wrist.

[Don Julin]

I am a believer in holding the pick with a loose fist, but I am not so sure about using more arm and less wrist. I would need to see you play to be sure, but in general, holding the pick loose and playing with a loose wrist is the way to achieve a good mandolin sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un1Z0Fcfo6o

[Mike Snyder]

Watch some Tim O'Brien videos, note his wrist.

[MONami]

That is not what his teacher said. The OP said his wrist was too tense.
The teacher commented on the % balance of wrist and arm, NOT tension or looseness of wrist.


My opinion your teacher is wrong. That wrist needs to be limber as a dish-rag. There are differant ways to play, but everybody I ever seen that was good on mando had a very loose wrist.

[MONami]

You will get it with time. Try strumming your mando with your knuckles, no pick at all, and go for that loose up/down automaticity that we all strive for. Practice chords with left hand. Relax. Om. updownupdownupdownupdownupdownupdownupdownupdown.. .

Five lessons in is way to soon to be thinking of an arm transplant.


Hi folks! I'm a newbie (as in five lessons in) mandolin player...Am I just expecting too much too soon? Does it just take time and pratice to find that "sweet spot" in your posture? ;)

[300win]

That is not what his teacher said. The OP said his wrist was too tense.
The teacher commented on the % balance of wrist and arm, NOT tension or looseness of wrist.

Your understanding of what his teacher told him is way differant than mine. His teacher told him to use more arm, less wrist, in my book thats telling him to play with more or less a locked wrist.

[Cheryl Watson]

If your wrist has a lot of movement AND it is tense this = harsh/stiff playing. As others have said, watch a few of the best on You Tube. If you watch some of the best players, some have more wrist action than others--all have some kind of combination of wrist and arm motion, but ALL are relaxed--the players who get the most tone. Not so relaxed that you have no control, of course. You picking arm needs to lightly rest on the armrest or edge of the mandolin and it needs to be mobile so that you can play from up the neck a bit to a few inches from the bridge to get different tones. Planting your picking arm down hard on the mandolin is very limiting.

Control of the pick is mostly with pressure with the thumb. Play harder and you have to press a bit more with your thumb (which should be straight across the pick, parallel to the strings) but you do not squeeze the pick harder.

Another tip: Do not focus on volume at first--play with good technique and posture and stay relaxed. Concerning single note playing: I always teach my students how to sound out each note as long as possible before the next note and when they have that down, they can learn staccato style if they please. I also teach, right away, how to "strum a solo" with a very relaxed wrist--I always use Angelina Baker as the first tune for this first the lower octave, then the higher octave.

Fret only as hard as you have to to get solid clean notes. If you press hard with your left hand, your right hand tends to tense up also.

Work on arpeggios, scales, simple tunes that have you learn alternate picking technique, playing lead and fills out of chords, rhythm (chop and open chords), and include slides, pull-offs, hammer-ons, and tremolo.

Then, when you have developed good flow and tone and timing, start to add more speed and then more power (volume) with your picking hand in increments. As you add power with your picking hand (I call this power instead of volume because there is a huge difference there) you will have to press a tad bit harder with your fretting hand to make the notes sound out. The timing between the left and right hand becomes much more of a challenge as you build power and speed. If you start losing tone/timing slow up and play softer again focusing on tone/technique and then start increasing again. I think that it is best not to add power and speed at the same time. I work with my students with a combination of more speed/same power level, same speed/more power, then graduate to more speed/more power.

Be mindful of keeping both hands relaxed but still with good control--this is a fine balancing act for sure. It is something that you feel and hear. Also, start recording yourself for immediate feedback. Little light bulbs really start going off then : )

[cornishpixie]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. All much appreciated. ;)
I know I'm an over eager beaver at 5 lessons in, but just want to learn to do it correctly as soon as possible so I don't have to spend time unlearning/relearning.

[GRW3]

I changed my right hand technique based on instructor input but it was not a 'just do it' process. I used to splay my fingers on my right hand. Steve Smith, one of the mando instructors at Camp Bluegrass, suggested I should tuck them up into my palm. I tried it and I could see his point but it was not possible just change on the fly. Instead I used the time he recommended for right hand practice to start every session to work on my hand. (Steve is an advocate of working on the right hand, alone, by playing several rhythmic patterns across all four courses every time you start a session.) Besides the ostensible purpose of calibrating my brain-hand-string interface I was also able to concentrate on how my hand felt. Am I holding the pick too tight? Is my fist too tight? Am I pushing through both strings in the course?

Gradually, as my MII (man instrument interface) acquired the pattern it has become my 'normal' form. As an interesting side note, I notice I can play faster with the tucked form than the splayed form. I can literally feel the momentum decrease in my hand as I pull the fingers in. I mentally liken it to how a figure skater can increase their spin rate by tucking in their arms (an application of the law of conservation of momentum).

I'm not so sure about the pick with arm motion approach. That sounds more like a strumming technique. Is your teacher a guitar instructor who also teaches mandolin by any chance? That approach might be the best for some rhythm forms but I'm thinking you'll find most mandolin players use a lot of wrist action for melodic playing.

[cornishpixie]

Is your teacher a guitar instructor who also teaches mandolin by any chance?

Ding, ding, ding! I think you might have just nailed it George. That is indeed the case. He is a very accomplished guitarist who picked up mandolin several years ago. I think you are absolutely right about the tucking the fingers in.

Does Steve Smith have any online lessons by chance? :)