Celtic Improv

[Mike Buesseler]

This post is somewhat related to one I just posted to the generel mandolin forum....

It seems to me that Celtic music is much more closely bound to melodies (probably due to sessions where everyone has to play something close) than BG and maybe other genres.

Is this true?

If so, is there any part of Celtic music that would be considered improvisational? Maybe choice of ornamentation, for example. I know that traditionally, Celtic players don't ( sometimes *can't) wander far from the melody.

Perhaps this partly explains what attracts some people to Celtic vs BG, or vice-versa?

[whistler]

Irish musicians prefer to use the term 'variation'. Variation is a fundamental ingredient in Irish traditional dance music, used by all good players in some measure. Some players may play set variations, learned from other players, perhaps from their own local tradition. Some may 'compose' their own personal variations, while others use spontaneous (i.e. improvised) variation. Variatons may range in form from the subtlest inflection of a note, through the choice of ornamentation, to substantial alteration of the melody. Most players draw their melodic variations from a stock of phrases, accumulated through years of listening, playing and familiarity with the music. A few are able to spontaneously 're-write' the tune whilst playing.

An overriding factor, however, in this music is that melody always takes centre stage. Whereas in much jazz, bluegrass, pop, rock and classical music, melodies tend to be based around a harmonic structure (chord progression), in Irish music, the structure is inherent in the melody. Given the complexity of some of the melodies, too much improvisation can destroy the structure of the music. There are certainly musicians rooted in the Irish musical tradition who use Irish tunes as a basis for improvisation - Davy Spillane and Eileen Ivers, to name a couple - but to my ears, this begins to become a different type of music.

But listening closely to many of the great exponents of Irish traditional music - Michael Coleman, Seamus Tansey, Joe Burke, Tommy Peoples, Paddy Keenan etc.- reveals a great deal of improvisational content which is perhaps less obvious than that heard in bluegrass or jazz.

I cannot speak for other musical traditions under the 'Celtic' umbrella, as I do not have enough experience of them, but I believe the same is probably true to a greater or lesser extent.

[mandocrucian]

There's a lot that happens behind vocals. Listen to Andy Irvine (Planxty), Dave Swarbrick (Carthy/Swarbrick) for mando (and fiddle as well in the case of Swarb) improv. Also some early Richard Thompson (on mando) tracks like "Poor Little Beggar Girl", "Smiffy's Glas Eye".

NH

[POB]

Whistler nailed it as regards Irish music.

One of the drawbacks of medium to large sessions is that most of the individual variations get "averaged out", as there isn't the concept of individual breaks or solos during tunes. A session can be a great social, learning and sharing experience; the music can often have great drive and verve, but it often fails to provide gifted players with an opportunity to be heard putting their own individual touches to a tune.

For me, there's huge enjoyment in listening to a gifted player playing solo, or with an equally talented and sympathetic accompanist. Also, when I have my accompanist's hat on, I get great satisfaction from playing with a single melody player, if we're connecting musically. Sometimes in a session with, say, six melody players, I feel I'm accompanying the average of six musicians rather than the sum. Playing one-on-one with a good melody player who is putting their stamp on things really forces me to listen and adapt on the fly.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Also check out Brenga Astur.
Spanish Celtic - Asturia.


rasa

[craigtoo]

Well said Whistler!

[Bob DeVellis]

Sessions are about the only place where moderately experienced players play a strictly common melody. Get three or four people who play together regularly and their version will be at least a bit different from another group's version of the same tune. Soloists rarely play successive turns of the same tune the same way they played it the last time around. Ornamentation is varied -- sometimes even invented -- on the fly. On the other thread, there was some discussion of sean nos which is especially improvisational. There, words even dominate over melody.

As an aside, there have been studies of folk performances that purportedly have remained unchanged, handed down in oral tradition for generations. In fact, they change with every performance. This is known because they're still described as "identical" from performance to performance but now you can record them and actually compare. The thing is, all of the changes occur in "non-essential" parts of the melody, parts that don't "make it what it is." The same is true for epic poetry handed down as an oral tradition. People will swear that, no matter how many retellings, the tale does not change an iota. Again, recordeings when compared, prove otherwise. But again, the changes are never in the critical details of the the story. A "gentle breeze" may become a "soft breeze" if it's just an incidental bit of information, but there will always be mention of some sort of inoffensive breeze. So, even in things we hear superficially as unvarying, there is still a fair amount of innovation from performance to performance. But the melody (in Irish music) remains recognizable and its most important elements keep their form.

[whistler]

Bob - I like the storytelling analogy. Can I borrow it?

[Bob DeVellis]

whistler - thanks, and be my guest.

[steve V. johnson]

Great post, Whistler, well said!

Some Irish players will argue for orthodoxy, but the fact is that even the oldest players never play a thing the same way twice. IMO, this is one of the great things about folk musics, the evolution in action.

Thanks,

stv

[withak]

I think part of the reason you won't see large amounts of melodic improvisation in celtic music is because of the lack of chords. Dance tunes are based around a melody; chords and harmony are a relatively modern addition and, unlike most bluegrass songs where the chord progression is pretty easy to hear, celtic tunes can be pretty ambiguous when it comes to chords. Even having more than one guitarist trying to play rhythmn at a session can result in a surprising number of odd notes. Most improvisation is based around a chord progression or scale for a particular song and if there is no consistent chord progression then improvisation can pretty much only happen with a groups of musicians that play together a lot and already have chord progressions agreed upon in advance.

[Avi Ziv]

Withak - I can see how you would come to this conclusion based on western musical traditions. However, thinking more universally, there are many examples of musical traditions which involve heavy improvisation and yet retain a strong modal nature. Arabic/Islamic music comes to my mind immediately. Listen to any traditional oud player - Arab, Turkish, or Armenian and you will hear a theme that is expanded into long model improvisations. In fact, in these musical traditions, much of the ensemble is playing in unison - closer to what the Irish do than to what a western European ensemble might do. I think there is no *musical* reason why you don't see more improvisations in Irish traditional music (sorry for the double negatives:)) It must have a more cultural reason. One thing that comes to my mind is the most natural setting for the music. Irish traditional music is community-oriented. Let's forget for a second professional performers who sit on stage and play for an audience. Most Itrad happens in the local pub, by people to go there after work and after the kids are in bed to engage with others over a pint. As such, the easiest thing is for people to know the same tune and play the same tune. This, by the way, happens also in Cajun music sessions, where farmers get together on weekends to play their traditional music. Another aspect of this is that a lot of Irish music is dance music in it's foundation and, as such, is helped by clear structure and melody. Yes, these days people might not be dancing around the sessions so much but the form is left over. Think back to the history of Jazz and you will see that when people began abandoning the melody and going deep into improvisation (bebop period), the lost the dancers and in a way lost the connection to the mainstream of the population. This is in no way criticism of the direction of Jazz (I like highly improvised free jazz) but a simple reality. But music evolves and changes and we hear more improvised Celtic music in the future. It's really up to us who play the music - no? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm rambeling so I'll get off now. At least some ideas to think about. Hope I have not offended anyone.

Avi

[Avi Ziv]

btw - my statement "Let's forget for a second professional performers who sit on stage and play for an audience" meant no disrespect! I greatly admire many of the professional musicians. I go to their concerts, buy their CD's, and promote their music. Like any tradition, Irish music is a big field with many aspects. I decided not to address professional stage performers in this posting.

Peace
Avi

[POB]

Speaking of non-musical reasons, it occurs to me that we Irish aren't very tolerant or forgiving of "show-offs", and our definition of what constitutes showing off is probably quite broad. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

So Irish improvisation is subtle, not showy (or "repressed, not creative", depending on your point of view).

Just a theory, of course. (All attempts at disagreeing with me will be regarded as showing off.)

[jmcgann]

I look at "Celtic" (I dislike the marketing term, but will use it anyway) improvisation happening very much, constantly, in the accompaniment. It isn't so much about square block chord changes as it is about playing what I can "pandiatonic" or "panmodal"- where rather than always building voicings straight up in thirds, you work with the tonal center of the moment and play combinations of notes that can imply or infer chord changes...for example, in A, #I might play the top two strings open throughout and put movement just on the two lower strings. Some of the "vertical structures" would be odd theorywise, but sound right. Theres tons of examples of this (plug plug) in my Octave Mando book... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

As always, the melody RULES what you play accompanimentwise.

[Mike Buesseler]

Thanks for your input, John. Actually, I am having an OM built for me by Brian Dean, due to arrive next spring. I am on the verge of purchasing your book, and will certainly own it by the time the instrument arrives.

I have little idea what pandiatonic means, but from this and other similar posts, I am becoming aware that I will need a new approach to the OM, different than I use on mandolin, anyway.

In the meantime, I'm experimenting with this idea of keeping to the melody, but in more creative ways, with the mandolin. Not surprisingly, this is requiring some careful listening to music I thought I sort of understood. Surprises abound!

[POB]

Surprises abound!
And don't you just love it!

The concept of the accompaniment providing great scope for improvisation is one of the things that attracts me to doing it. It's also one of the reasons why, more often than not, two accompanists playing simultaneously at an Irish session will clash a bit - it can get pretty pandemonic rather than pandiatonic.

In a way, Irish music and bluegrass are musical opposites, despite their similarities. In bluegrass, there is certainly some room for improvisation in the accompaniment, but loads of room for improvisation in the lead/melody playing; in Irish music, it's the other way around.

Of course, there are those who regard accompaniment as being outside the tradition, so from that point of view, the only tradtional improvisation is melodic.

[danb]

Speaking of non-musical reasons, it occurs to me that we Irish aren't very tolerant or forgiving of "show-offs", and our definition of what constitutes showing off is probably quite broad. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
yeah, curturally I'd say that's very true. You want to alienate your session buddies fast, try boasting!

That said, cutting loose with what you can do in a jam usually is a way to raise the bar and get the magic flowing. Irish sessions outside the USA are much more open in my experience, almost an "anything goes" mantra. My favorite ones include BG tunes, Van Morrison songs, the occasional 12-bar blues, etc etc. It's all about what folks are good at and enjoy.

The virtuosity and improv are there too, just in a much less formal "take a break!" sort of way. My favorite players have a playful approach to the melody, and unleash emotions in a way that's hard to do *outside* that kind of structure. Hard to explain, but easy to demonstrate http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

If your goal is to impress people by trying to dominate the scene, you've missed the point and peed in the swimming pool to get attention.. it takes a while to really understand how important it is to support your chorts and jointly up the ante, so to speak. A "real" session is a tribal experience where everone supports each other and push both themselves and others to do more. Ideally, I'll go home all sweaty, drunk, and with sore fingers after a good session.

[Mike Buesseler]

Ideally, I'll go home all sweaty, drunk, and with sore fingers after a good session.


I think I've been missing the best part of "Celtic" music. THIS sounds like FUN!!

[danb]

ah crud, more "evidence" left on the cafe boards http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Hello, my name is Dan, and I'm a sessionholic.

HELLO DAN!

[Dagger Gordon]

The word 'Celtic ' really is not that helpful, because different countries /regions would certainly have had all sorts of local traditions in years gone by, and indeed the whole notion of a 'session' is fairly new in many places.

In Scotland the pubs used to shut at 10.00 pm until not so long ago, and 'ceilidhs' back at somebody's house would be the thing. The word has come to mean a dance nowadays, but it used to mean everybody giving a song, a humorous turn, a story or playing a tune, individually as well as playing together. Somehow the idea of a lot of improvisation in such a context doesn't seem quite right. Remember these were rural or small town communities who would be more familiar with Scottish music as represented by Jimmy Shand or Calum Kennedy, or by pipe bands.

Competitions in piping would also encourage a very strict interpretation of tunes. Play something differently and you would be marked down or disqualified, simple as that.
That's not to say that pipers wouldn't fool around with tunes in more informal settings, however.

I don't want this to sound like Scottish music was boring in the 50's and 60's. Quite the reverse. When I listen to great bands from that era such as Bobby MacLeod, they had tremendous 'lift' to their music. These were definitely bands for dancing to, and good timing was essential.
What is perhaps slightly forgotten is that these bands would also play for dances like the foxtrot; recordings of that side of the Scottish dance band repertoire are less common. They would have probably featured some improvisation , but that is different from their playing of Scottish tunes.

I think it probably is true to say that there has not been a lot of improvisation in Scottish music; things are changing though. Pipers like Fred Morrison take a lot of liberties with tunes, partly in an effort to get away from what could be perceived as a very hidebound attitude in Scottish piping.

Getting back to my original point about different places having different traditions, it is well known that Scottish music in Cape Breton developed very differently from back in Scotland. Indeed, many people have argued that fiddle playing there is more authenticly Scottish. What Cape Breton music very distinctively has is a lot of fairly wild piano accompaniment. I thought at first this was quite a new development, but I have some tapes from the 50's by people like Angus and Cameron Chisholm where the piano playing of Mary Jessie MacDonald is far wilder than anything I have heard by Seamus McNeil or Hilda Chiasson. Considering how isolated Cape Breton would have been at that time it really is amazing how wild and free she sounds. I have often thought that the Cape Breton piano style owed a lot to American barrelhouse piano. It certainly is full of improvisation and influenced by jazz in a way that I haven't heard in Scottish music of the time. I don't know how far back that style goes. Prior to that I shouldn't think there was much accompaniment.

There's a lot more you could say, but that'll do for now. Better go and feed my cows.

[whistler]

Thanks for that insight, D.A.G. My experience of 'Celtic' music is more or less limited to Irish (I like a lot of Scots music, but there's not much of it in London). I was hoping somebody would chime in with a different angle.

Incidentally, I've just listened for the first time to a tape of you that someone gave me a couple of days ago - Great Shtuff, as they say in Kilburn.

[Dagger Gordon]

Thanks for that Whistler,

I was beginning to think I'd killed that thread stone dead.

Although Scottish music has a huge amount in common with Irish, it is also different in many ways. There are also very big regional differences. The fiddle style of the North-East is very distinctive, and of course the influence of piping is enormous.

I'm glad you like my tape. I assume it's 'Highland Mandolin', originally put out on cassette. You might be interested to know that I re-mastered it and put it out on CD. I also released a follow-up called 'The Frozen River' three years ago. Tell your friends!

Google MusicScotland Dagger Gordon and you should find a link to a good mail-order company.

Alternatively I'd be happy to post you stuff myself as you're in the UK (overseas sales it's easier to use Visa and deal with MusicScotland).

Sorry for the blatant commercial everyone. Christmas is coming!

[Bren]

There is a passage in RL Stevenson's "Catriona" (or maybe it's in "Kidnapped") where two pipers have a sort of duel in a kitchen or pub snug (my memory's failing me a bit here - I remember the impression vividly but not the details) - each playing the tune in turn with ever more twists and turns and variations. So, assuming Stevenson wrote this from personal observation or at least description from someone who had observed this kind of thing, it's probable that the piping tradition had this kind of aspect to it before the era of competitions etc.

[QUOTE]Ideally, I'll go home all sweaty, drunk, and with sore fingers after a good session.
Well once having tried to keep up with Dan at a session, I can testify to two out of three. I was off the drink that night. Bits of fingertips flying in all directions.

[Dagger Gordon]

Good stuff Bren,

Pipers tend to be a law unto themselves. Give them enough drams and anything could happen!

Dunno why I didn't mention him before, but the most inspired improvising Celtic musician I can think of is Scottish concertina player Simon Thoumire.

I'll tell him about this thread. He would certainly have some interesting thoughts on it.