PDA

View Full Version : don't touch my mandolin!



backwoodsborn10
Mar-05-2011, 12:14am
so....i was at the local bluegrass jam and there's a lady there with a new weber mandolin. well, me being me, i asked her if i could play it. after stumbling for something to say, she politely said no, i've gotta go in a minute. well i got the hint, and this is the second time this has happened to me. not with the same lady though. i must say it kinda felt like a slap in the face. even if a slap is deserved, it still hurts! maybe i'm just wierd, but i don't understand how someone could be that way , i reckon, cause i'm not. now if i was an 8 yr old rambunctious youngen, i could understand, but i see this lady weekly and talk briefly to her, so she knows me.? even if i owned a loyd loar original i wouldn't hesitate to let a fellow mandolinist play it. i guess bein i never had ne money,i don't put much stock in "things". now i don't hold anything against this lady, i just don't understand this. maybe some of you have been on one side or the other of this...give your thoughts.:confused:

MikeEdgerton
Mar-05-2011, 12:26am
The worst scratches I have on my mandolin came from other people so I understand why she doesn't let others play her mandolin. On the other hand, I do let others play my instruments so it's a personal choice thing I guess. Some people are very protective of the pristine nature of their instruments and that's fine, I'm just not. To me it's a tool.

allenhopkins
Mar-05-2011, 12:37am
Depends. If it's someone I know who's a good player, and is really just interested in trying out one of my instruments, no problem. If it's a drunk at a jam, or someone I don't know (even if he/she seems to be a good player), I'm reluctant. There's someone who invariably comes to our folk club sing-around without a guitar, and always has to borrow one; I generally let someone else volunteer to be the good Samaritan. Another guy always re-tunes whatever instrument he borrows; I finally said, "You can borrow my guitar if you don't try to re-tune it!" He got mad and sulked.

So I do understand "how someone could be that way." Some folks who've put over $1K into a mandolin are quite protective and possessive of it. Others are more generous. Takes all kinds... However, the lady in question may be aware that you "don't put much stock in 'things,'" and be worried that you wouldn't treat her Weber with the care she thinks it deserves.

Rick Crenshaw
Mar-05-2011, 12:44am
I NEVER ask others to play their mandolin. In fact, I have been known to turn down offers to play nice instruments if I have determined that the owner places an unusually high value on the pristine appearance (and I have seen far too many people who take great pains to keep their instruments pristine.)

Asking people of this mindset puts undue pressure on them to say no. Why put such a load on them?

Barry Platnick
Mar-05-2011, 12:51am
The worst scratches I have on my mandolin came from other people .

Ditto!

That's why I put my pick guard back on. I like hearing others play my mandolin

Jim Ferguson
Mar-05-2011, 1:00am
I am one of those "keep your mitts off my Gibson" types in general......BUT.......if it is someone I know to be a sound player whom I trust.....I will let them play my mando & in fact welcome it. When I lived in Nome, Alaska several years back a bunch of us were jamming at a friend's place & one of those was Jason Norris-the mandoliner who plays with Bearfoot Bluegrass-a bluegrass group out of Alaska. He asked to give my Gibson F-9 a go & I was thrilled to hear what a really talented mandoliner could do with my mando & man 'o man it was a treat to hear him play the instrument of which, by the way, he said he loved the sound.
My wife has a gorgeous Taylor guitar......others have used it at times without asking.........has several dings in it.........yeah: some say it shows character BUT I am one of those who wants to keep my mando in pristine condition.......that is why I let so few touch my Gibson.
Peace,
Jim

Mike Snyder
Mar-05-2011, 1:13am
A very nice, quiet fellow here in Kansas has a nice Weber Fern. I've never seen anyone else handle it. He has a singing/pickin' partner who says that he isn't allowed to touch it. The owner pours concrete for a living, and those dollars come real hard. I've never asked to play it. I'm not a Weber fan, but would have asked if he was that kinda guy. I did decline permission to a fellow who wanted to capo mine when he was trying it out. I was holding his POS with a big gouge out of the neck where the capo went.

Ed Goist
Mar-05-2011, 1:39am
I used to be a real "hands-off my instrument guy".
All that changed one evening after a Larkin Poe concert when, during the post show meet-and-greet, a gracious Rebecca Lovell just handed me her Duff to play (that's it in my avatar)...No asking, no implication...I was asking her the kinds of questions we (Mandolin Cafe folks) would be asking about her mandolin, and she just handed it to me to play.
If Rebecca Lovell can invite me to play her mandolin, I can certainly do the same for others.
I now go out of my way to see if others would like to play my mandolins.

Dave Weiss
Mar-05-2011, 1:58am
I don't mind most of the time. I rather enjoy it when somebody hands me their mando and asks to try mine (there have been a few folks that can make that Big Muddy sound really good), but I really dislike it when someone (anyone) thinks they need to "retune" it for me, without asking. You know, the guys that run through the strings and start twisting the tuners, maybe to impress me (?). I'm not impressed. In fact I find it quite rude. So now, when I hand somebody my mandolin I let them know that it's tuned just fine and they usually get the hint...

Mandolin Mick
Mar-05-2011, 2:04am
I've offered my instruments to others to try and have been asked by others if they could try an instrument of mine as well. I try to be respectful of somebody's property and I hope they feel the same about mine. :)

Ivan Kelsall
Mar-05-2011, 4:01am
I'm with MikeE. on this one. 4 years back i loaned my then 6 month old Weber "Fern" to another Mandolin player to play. There were no scratches on it at the time,but when i got it back,there was a nice long scratch on the back,made by this guy's belt buckle.Fortunately it wasn't deep & i did manage to polish it out completely.
Mick has it right as well - if somebody wishes to play your instrument & you'd like to play theirs,just treat each other's property wish due respect & try not to cause any damage.
We can go to the other extreme as well. John Reischman taught a Mandolin Class at the "Sore Fingers Summer School" over here in the UK last year. I know 2 people that he loaned his Loar to so that they could play it - now that's trust !.
I usually way up how players treat their instruments before i'd loan them mine. Some players couldn't care less about scratches,that's fine - i do,& so do others. To me a Mandolin is a 'possession' in the same way a car is. I bet we'd all be a bit antsy if we loaned our car to somebody who brought it back with a few 'added extras'. So,why treat a Mandolin any different ?.
DaveW. - I know exactly what you mean !. The guys who re-tune your instrument for you before they've even played a note !. In my opinion,those guys are runners up to the bands who come on stage & spend 10 minutes out of their 1/2 hour spot,tuning up & balancing the mics. Having said that,i wonder how i'd feel if it was John Reischman or Chris Thile doing the re-tuning- mmmmmm !,maybe i wouldn't be so disgruntled. Then again........,
Ivan

mandolirius
Mar-05-2011, 4:38am
Depends. If it's someone I know who's a good player, and is really just interested in trying out one of my instruments, no problem. If it's a drunk at a jam, or someone I don't know (even if he/she seems to be a good player), I'm reluctant.

It can even be the same person. I know a couple of good players who are welcome to play my mandolin anytime, unless they're drunk. Then they get nowhere near it. But those situations aside, I find it's always a nice experience to hear others play your instrument. People have loaned me some incredible mandolins to play. I even had a Loar for a couple of hours while its owner was off teaching a bass class.

AlanN
Mar-05-2011, 7:24am
It depends, and can lead to some touchy moments when someone asks "Can I play it?" and the answer is "No".

I have no problem letting others pick on mine, provided...here's the big one....I like what I see when I invariably say "Sure you can, let me see you pick on your's first." Gotta say, I had the willies letting Dempsey Young play it for a set, knowing how he 'marked his territory.'

yankees1
Mar-05-2011, 7:39am
you can touch my wife but not my mandolin! :grin:

D C Blood
Mar-05-2011, 7:39am
I love hearing somebody else playing my mandolins, if I know they are reasonaby good pickers. I don't usually ask someone else if I can play theirs. If they ask me to, I will. My biggest WOW!! event came back in '71. when I was visiting John Paganoni out in California where he was stationed at the time. He was scheduled to play a gig one night, but was called away on some Air Force business. He handed me his Loar (real one), and says, "Here, go take my place at the show tonight".:disbelief:..Fortunately, I brought it back in the same condition as when I took it. I can't remember anybody "marking" any of mine.

custer
Mar-05-2011, 7:56am
I have to know someone well before I will let them play my instrument and then I will ask them.
On the flip side, I never ask to try someone elses instrument, but if they offer I will say yes.

John Flynn
Mar-05-2011, 7:58am
To me, being at a jam or an Irish session is as much about meeting people and developing friendships through music, as it is about the music itself. If I have an instrument someone would like to play, I see that as an opportunity to start a friendship. That is way more important than worrying about scratches on my instrument.

Ole Joe Clark
Mar-05-2011, 7:58am
I usually don't ask, but once I asked a guy if I could play his new Martin, and was quickly rebuffed with "no, no one has played it but me." I was shocked, and never asked again. I allow folks to play my instruments, if they take care of their own. One guy, who is a great musican and song writer, is never allowed to touch my guitar, or anybody else's if they him.

I had a issue with my mandolin and a friend wanted to loan me his really nice Weber until I got my cheapo fixed. I graciously declined to use it, but was glad that he was willing to allow me to keep it for a weekend.

Joe

joshtree
Mar-05-2011, 8:11am
One of the first things my mandolin teacher told me was that most scratches and dings were gong to happen when I hand my mando to others. But i dont care about that at this point. Mayby when I own a nice one I will. I do however subscribe to the philosophy that you never let others ride your motorcycle. Perhaps thats more along the sentiment for some and their mandolins.

Ryk Loske
Mar-05-2011, 8:12am
Playing in a jam situation i watch what others are doing just to try to find a "hole" in the music .... so i see how they handle their instrument. If i'm comfortable with how they handle theirs ... i'd hand them mine if asked. I have a rare guitar that i'll actually put in some folks hands so they can experience it. You walk up to me with an acre of belt buckle or overalls on and it's just not gonna happen.

Ryk

Josh Kaplan
Mar-05-2011, 8:30am
That's a good story, Ed, and it explains the nice look on your face.

Like DC, I love hearing other people play my mandolins, partly because one of mine in particular sounds really different to the listener than to the player, and I like hearing it from the listener's perspective. And I just like sharing them, because all of mine are special to me. But I can understand someone feeling differently, whatever their reason. Some people are protective of their things, others are just snooty. I probably wouldn't like it if I were in Backwoodsborn10's position, but you can't take it personally.

Where I draw the line is letting someone borrow them. I would not expect it to come back in the same condition--too many bad experiences over the years with other instruments. Don't get me started about when I lent out my trombone for a night when I was in college.

-Josh

300win
Mar-05-2011, 9:05am
Don't have any problem letting someone pick my mandolins or any other instrument I have as long asI feel they will respect it. No I'm not the type that worrys about dings, scratches, to me also a instrument is a tool. But if it was a drunk or obnoxious person, then the answer would be no. Even if it is someone that can play good, and is of the braggart type, they don't get to pick my stuff either. Of course most braggarts always have the best so that problem doesn't happen very often.

300win
Mar-05-2011, 9:14am
That's a good story, Ed, and it explains the nice look on your face.

Like DC, I love hearing other people play my mandolins, partly because one of mine in particular sounds really different to the listener than to the player, and I like hearing it from the listener's perspective. And I just like sharing them, because all of mine are special to me. But I can understand someone feeling differently, whatever their reason. Some people are protective of their things, others are just snooty. I probably wouldn't like it if I were in Backwoodsborn10's position, but you can't take it personally.

Where I draw the line is letting someone borrow them. I would not expect it to come back in the same condition--too many bad experiences over the years with other instruments. Don't get me started about when I lent out my trombone for a night when I was in college.

-Josh

I've never 'lent' one out, but I did sell a Martin D-35 to a guy I thought was a reponsible friend, under the condition that he take care of the guitar until I got it back. He agreed to that, but when I got it back it had 4 cracks in it, bridge plate was loose, way more scratches on it than when I sold it to him, and also filthy, he had not taken care of it at all. He told me when he got it that he would not even take it out of the case or play it, he didn't need to he already had two guitars, but I found out he put it on a stand in a room that he kept the door shut and the room had a big window in it that allowed sunlight in it for a good part of the day before noon. That's probably where a lot of the damage came from. Needless to say, he is not my friend any more. The only reason I sold the guitar was that a emergency had come up and I needed some fasrt cash. I learned my lesson. Estimate on having my guitar fixed is around $500-600.

Jesse Harmon
Mar-05-2011, 9:27am
I have a nice belt buckle scratch on a weeks old beautiful new guitar classical guitar I had built by Gary Zimnicki. Came from a guy who is a collector of guitars with a number of high end instruments of his own. Accidents happen to the best of us I guess. I think someone should get a little space when they get a new instrument and you should wait for an offer. I do like to hear my instruments played by someone just to hear the sound from out front and I do sometimes want to play someone else's instrument. That said, there are people I wouldn't ask to play their guitar, and people I cringe when they want to play mine. It's kind of like my toothbrush in a way, it just is a personal space thing that is kind of tricky. I can usually tell if it's someone I have been around for a while whether they love the instrument or they love themselves. The tuning issue is tricky. I hate to hear out of tune instruments and they can slip notice easily enough. If its that mind game playing tuning going on though I would be annoyed. There is no excuse to come to a jam or a gig and expect to take over anyone else's instrument, ever!!!! My opinion only even if it sounds like its on a stone tablet. So I wouldn't take it personal in this case and just figure she's like a new mother getting to know her baby.

Canadian Dave
Mar-05-2011, 9:34am
I gave my 1 week old hand made classical guitar to try to a very good player who proceeded to place 3 large scrapes on the pristine top with his very long nales. Also putting 4 marks on the neck from his left hand thumb nail . He then put it in the case with finger prints all over it and smelling of bo. When I opened the case, my heart sunk. It looked like it had been raped. When I asked him about it he denied everything saying it came that way. I teach in a music school attached to a store and in the last year have had to discount 2 very expensive guitars because of people trying them out and marking them.On one ,we had to have the top refinished before we could sell it . We lost money on that on. We have a very good teacher who is not allowed to touch any of the instruments in the store. Five minutes with him and a guitar looks like it was dragged behind a truck. Some people are just careless and inconsiderate .Having said all that , I still let others try my instruments if I am present and trust them.You just have to know where to draw the line.

Tim2723
Mar-05-2011, 9:43am
HA! This one's right up my alley boys!

I have no problem at all letting someone play my instruments. Last week there was this very interested seven year old girl in the audience at a quiet, uncrowded resturaunt. On the break I took it over, sat next to her, and let her strum while I fingered a couple of chords. She'll bring her parents back next time, you bet.

But with that said, every mandolin I've destroyed has been in perfect condition until some drunk fell on it or knocked it to the floor.

Randi Gormley
Mar-05-2011, 9:47am
It might just be that you needed to know her better -- or maybe she just felt intimidated. I'll hand my mandolin(s) to anybody, even rank novices (I've never been asked by a drunk so that probably would be the one case i'd say 'no'), but then, none of my mandolins cost more than $350. I've even been known to loan my Rogue (but not my 'real' mandolins) to people who want to try it for a while. Would I feel differently if I had a more expensive instrument? Dunno.

tonyvt
Mar-05-2011, 9:47am
I'm just on my way on up the MAS pathway and currently own a sweet KM-900 that I am more than happy to let everyone pick. Same thing with my Collings D2G guitar.

This thread reminded me of an old John Hartford (RIP) song;
"Oh you'll pass the joint and I'll pass the wine anything good from a-down the line"

Bertram Henze
Mar-05-2011, 9:54am
i must say it kinda felt like a slap in the face. even if a slap is deserved, it still hurts! maybe i'm just wierd, but i don't understand how someone could be that way , i reckon, cause i'm not.

Just guessing - there seems to be a kind of demanding expectance in these words, like it's taken for granted that everybody should let you play their instrument because you would. Maybe, just maybe this attitude somehow shines through in the very moment you ask (something in your voice or your behavior) which makes people instinctively hold back; this would explain why they can't come up with a reason and take resort to a lame excuse.

Again just guessing, from what other folks here have said - what does your own instrument look like?

I may be all wrong, not having been there, just stating my impression based on words.

GRW3
Mar-05-2011, 10:10am
The worst they can say is "No." That's my feeling about asking such questions. I never take offense at a "No" because I don't have a sense of entitlement to try just anything I want. I usually start by discussing the particular instrument and why the person chose it. If I do play other peoples instruments I keep negative opinions to myself since instrument lust is so deeply personal. If pressed I express things as preference as in "I prefer a lower action, Jethro style" rather that "This action is too damn high!" Of course we all know the guy who routinely says "It's OK but it ain't no Gibson (or Martin for a guitar)" and that guy never gets to play my instruments.

Personally, I'm on the road to mojo-town with my Weber so I don't worry too much. I don't let complete strangers play it unless I have seen them playing in a jam setting and see how they are with an instrument. Somebody that wears a big cowboy belt buckle and metal button shirts to a jam is a Philistine and will not get a shot either.

And I know from sad experience (observed thankfully) not to leave my instruments out during jam session breaks. There are just too many self possessed people (usually the belt buckle guy) who think an instrument out of the case is an invitation to play it. I've even seen people start to open cases that belong to friends and I've told them to stop.

catmandu2
Mar-05-2011, 10:32am
I've even seen people start to open cases that belong to friends and I've told them to stop.

It's always a bad sign when someone trys to pry open a case without undoing the latches on the back side...

P.D. Kirby
Mar-05-2011, 10:36am
I am in complete agreement with the Lady in the OP (no offense to BWB10 intended).
I have a few rules...
1) Don't ask to date my Wife.
2) Don't ask to ride my Harley.
3) Don't ask to play my Mandolin.

All three are basically the same thing. :grin:

Mandobart
Mar-05-2011, 10:50am
Just my experience...I've never asked to play someone else's instrument. The context is an important part. I usually ask other players (that I know) to play mine at the jams I go to. It usually happens the first few times I bring a new instrument. Someone will ask "is that a new one?" and I'll say "yes, just got this from XX, want to give it a try?" Part of it is my enthusiasm for my two favorite builders; I want to spread the word on their work. Folks at the jams I go to are sober, interested in music and pretty careful with instruments. This is also true of the kids at our jams, I especially like to let them try them out.

At the bars, no one else plays or touches my instruments. They are in the case, at my feet when not played by me.

Ed Goist
Mar-05-2011, 11:52am
I have to say I am appalled by these accounts of musicians not properly caring for, and even damaging, borrowed instruments.
Who raised these people?!

mandowilli
Mar-05-2011, 12:08pm
As my mother told me many times, "You've got to learn to take no for an answer".

sgarrity
Mar-05-2011, 12:12pm
Instruments are made to be played. Not sharing your instrument is like owning a Picasso you tell everyone about but never let anyone see it. Or opening a good bottle of wine at a party and drinking it all yourself. If you don't want a ding on your mando then you probably shouldn't take it out of the house. Or get a Mix carbon fiber mando and you'll never have to worry about it!

I freely share my instruments with anyone that asks politely. Now if you've just downed six pints of Bass and polished off a basket of hot wings, we're gonna wait awhile. My friend Jim-in-VA used to host mandolin tastings at his house. We'd all bring our instruments, put them on stands on the floor and tables and commence to jamming on whatever we grabbed. People were respectful and it was a damn fine time.

I got to play a Loar for about 30 minutes because I asked. It was after a workshop with Herschel Sizemore. It was just me, Herschel, and a few friends of mine in the room. We were all sitting around talking mandolins and I finally got up the nerve to ask him if I could play it. He said, "I've watched the way you take care of your instrument and you've got a real nice touch. go ahead and grab it out of the case." So I played his Loar while he picked away on my Heiden. A very cool experience with a legendary instrument and a legendary mandolin picker. And it never would have happened if I hadn't asked politely.

Sharing with others makes me happy!

mandroid
Mar-05-2011, 12:16pm
Last acquisition, was a 3rd hand Mix .. Carbon A5, It's what I take out to the local tavern jam.
I quite like the instrument and its stay in tune nature, and so handling by OP is
not so much of a concern now, but the people there , the regulars, I've known for years.. no novelty factor ..

Rob Norton
Mar-05-2011, 1:02pm
Ten years or so ago, I was playing bass in a country rock band, and our singer/frontman had just bought a beautiful Gibson J-200 – a copy of one from the late 1930s, with a sunburst top, rosewood back and sides, tons of pearly inlay, etc. It was one of the first reissue types they’d made in their Montana shop in the 1990s, and I think he’d paid around $3k for it.

At a gig in Brooklyn, NY, the singer from one of the other bands was admiring the J-200 and asked if he could use it during his set. (This was a show where 4-5 bands each did half hour sets.) He seemed like a nice enough guy, and obviously had an eye for nice gear. My guy said sure, and then the fun began.

Singer #2’s band turned out to be in the country-punk vein – kind of Waylon Jennings meets Sid Vicious. He was not drunk, but was what I would call a high-spirited performer, doing a lot of jumping around on the tiny stage, with some occasional Pete Townsend windmill srtumming. His signature song, with which he ended the set, involved him gargling with a pitcher of beer during the choruses, while one of his bandmates held a mike up to his throat.

We watched this with mounting horror, and my singer was right at the edge of walking up to the stage and taking his guitar back, but never quite got there.

The happy ending is that the guitar was undamaged -- just needed some immediate polishing to get the dried beer spray off. Otherwise, not even a scratch.

I’ll usually let other players try out my instruments, but that moment crosses my mind every time someone asks.

Clement Barrera-Ng
Mar-05-2011, 1:28pm
Instruments are made to be played. Not sharing your instrument is like owning a Picasso you tell everyone about but never let anyone see it. Or opening a good bottle of wine at a party and drinking it all yourself. If you don't want a ding on your mando then you probably shouldn't take it out of the house. Or get a Mix carbon fiber mando and you'll never have to worry about it!



Shaun - I'm still indebted to you for letting me try out your Heiden when we met up last year. It was definitely one of the high points of my young mandolin-playing life, so many thanks. I hope I can 'pass it on' some day when the time comes.

This thread has been somewhat eye-opening and educational for me personally. Not having owned any instruments that cost more than a grand, I tend to have a more care-free attitude about them than perhaps I would if I have a $15K Gilchrist. Mandolins are very emotional possessions to all of us, and I just need to be prepared when the day comes when I am told 'hands off'.

Dale Ludewig
Mar-05-2011, 1:46pm
Well, you know what Lyle Lovett says: You can have my girl but don't touch my hat! I don't know how he handles his guitars.

joanneinak
Mar-05-2011, 1:52pm
Gosh, great responses here...... My first Mandolin was a Weber, and I didn't mind if anyone touched or played it. My new Mando is a Sawchyn and cost much more. I'm very protective of it..... it's too precious to me to let whoever comes by have their "way with it".

A wise man told me once, "it's not all about you". No is a powerful word, it's important to say it if you mean it.

swampstomper
Mar-05-2011, 1:53pm
You asked to play Herschel's Loar:

'He said, "I've watched the way you take care of your instrument and you've got a real nice touch. go ahead and grab it out of the case." So I played his Loar while he picked away on my Heiden.'

1. He had watched you all day and could gauge the kind of person you are
2. He could see you knew how to play
3. He could see your very nice instrument (so you know about nice mandos) and that it was in good condition
4. Only a few people in the room so no one else is going to grab

That's about the way I size it up if someone asks. Actually, it's always trading with someone I know and whose instrument is more or less in mine's price class. At a jam session, with an unknown musician? No way.

Also, I never ask, even with instruments I would love to try out. I wait to be asked.

Spencer
Mar-05-2011, 2:31pm
I've had enough unhappy experiences that I am very cautious about who I let play my instruments now. I take pride in keeping them in good condition, and want to "own" the blemishes that come with time. Like swampstomper, I also do not ask to play other's instruments, and try to be careful with them if they ask if I would like to try them. Even at a display, I generally ask in a polite way if it is ok to play the instruments. I think that, and taking care of somebody else's instrument that you play, are just good manners.

Spencer

rf37
Mar-05-2011, 3:53pm
Well, personally I let anyone play my instruments that seriously wants to. even a kid. Easy to do with my mandolin cause it is nothing special but my Martins are another story. With kids I make sure I watch them close and with adults if I forsee any potetial damge about to take place I quickly get my Intrument back without being rude. However I do think it is rude to ask most of the time because I myself very seldom ask. I will however play one when asked to check it out. To me its like a strangers car....Hey can I drive your car...you dont know me I am a stranger but can I drive your car.
Just my opinion
rf37

Martin Stevens
Mar-05-2011, 3:57pm
It usually depends for me. If I know the person and I know they are a legit player who takes care of their instruments, no problem. Tom Rozum at Wintergrass came up and asked if he could play my ellis and I of course had NO problem with that hah... but if it's someone I don't know, I'd be more hesitant. I'm extremely careful with my instruments and 99% of scratches mine have gotten over the years happened from someone else.

I teach lots of kids work shops though (like the kids academy at Wintergrass) so I always think its a good idea to bring some beater (in comparison) instruments because that's a situation where it's verrry positive for kids to be able to get their hands on something and try it.

abuteague
Mar-05-2011, 4:10pm
I've got kids. I would rather they feel comfortable picking up an instrument than having pristine instruments. Yes they have done some damage, but they still are interested in playing. I'd love it if they really stuck with it. :)

Adults are the worst though. For some reason, they assume competence they don't always have. I lent my one and only mandolin to someone who immediately insisted it was out of tune. I tune all the time, but whatever, it is possible it is out of tune a little bit. Maybe they have really great ears. This person then proceeded to really crank on the tuners until the strings snapped. He had no clue what he was doing. He could have lost an eye. I didn't let anyone borrow my mandolin for a while after that. I mean really. :(

I was in Edmonton Canada at a Northern Bluegrass Circle gathering and I didn't have an instrument. Some complete stranger let me borrow his mandolin for the evening and I'm pretty sure I was playing in a different room too. Complete trust. Beautiful instrument too. I had such a good time and I will always fondly remember the Edmonton music community. Amazing people. :mandosmiley:

D C Blood
Mar-05-2011, 4:16pm
My wife always compares the way mandolin pickers swap instruments as a male "pi$$ing" contest...sort of an unspoken "mine's better than yours" sort of thing. You may have noticed that when someone asks if they can play yours, their own is generally not as good as yours...

Jesse Harmon
Mar-05-2011, 4:23pm
I'm a little confused on this analogy but I think I'll just let it go.

abuteague
Mar-05-2011, 4:34pm
My wife always compares the way mandolin pickers swap instruments as a male "pi$$ing" contest...
I'd disagree. I'd never assume my mandolin is the best there is in the room at all times. Usually, someone else's mandolin will surprise me in some way and enrich my knowledge. For example, I picked up someone's Gibson stripped down models. My left hand pinky really does well with small frets. I had no idea and thought I always preferred large frets. That, and the best mandolin for one person may not be the best for someone else. I can't recall seeing anyone so arrogant that they have boasted to have the best mandolin in the room. It is how you play it.
You want to see a pi$$ing contest, well see how fast some folks play. There seems to be no sensible bounds. I'd rather hear the music than an endless stream of 32nd notes, but then again, I can't keep up so maybe I'm bitter.

Jesse Harmon
Mar-05-2011, 4:45pm
As to the analogy I'm still a little confused so let me just say any pissing contest I was ever in I was holding my own instrument, not trying anyone else's.

allenhopkins
Mar-05-2011, 4:51pm
Instruments are made to be played. Not sharing your instrument is like owning a Picasso you tell everyone about but never let anyone see it. Or opening a good bottle of wine at a party and drinking it all yourself...Sharing with others makes me happy!

Disagree somewhat with the analogy. Musicians with instruments make music, as a painter makes art with his/her brushes. "Sharing a Picasso" doesn't mean letting someone else touch it up with his paintbrush!

More like having a car: you can give lots of people rides, but you don't let just anyone drive it, right?

Having said that, it's great to have a chance to play a world-class instrument, and Herschel S was evidently a generous, though careful, sharer. Whatever works for each individual...

Mandolin Mick
Mar-05-2011, 4:59pm
I've read stories of Bill Monroe returning a mandolin to it's owner with the back full of scratches from his belt buckle. I guess he's the exception where I'd consider that a badge of honor on my mandolin ... I think he was treating it like his own; I mean, look at his! ;)

Mandolin Mick
Mar-05-2011, 5:07pm
In my Beatles tribute band, years ago at the BBC here in Milwaukee, a couple of guys in my band almost came to blows and were separated by my drummer. Billy dripped a couple of drops of water from a pitcher over Tom's guitar case. Tom almost had a coronary over it and Billy called him a f****** baby. It was a sight to behold. I just asked my wife and she remembers it clearly! :))

kyken
Mar-05-2011, 5:10pm
gettcha a distressed model and quit frettin....

Bob Scrutchfield
Mar-05-2011, 5:21pm
I've never owned a nice top shelf mandolin. If I did, I would react like most of you when someone asked to try it out. If I knew the person well and knew that he (or she) respected their own instuments then I would let them play it. A casual aqaintance or a stanger probably would not get the same consideration. As far as a drunk, no way. I was jamming with some fellows sitting in chairs on a driveway one night. One guy had been drinking quite a bit and stood up with his strapped on Guild guitar only to have it crash to the concrete because the strap wasnt fastened on the end. At least it was his, instead of someone elses guitar.

My primary mandolin is a recently purchased Rover RM-75 and I even size up people when they want to play it. Like others, I want to own all the scratches and dings that get put on it. The lady in the OP is probably proud of her mandolin in a personal sense in addition to a tool to make music.

A very good friend of mine has a number of guitars and I have played all of them except one. He has one guitar that, for some reason, is very special to him, It's a Gibson Hummingbird. No one besides him has ever played it and I respect that even if I am not inclined that way. After all, it's his guitar. I've never ask anyone to play their instuments because I've always figured if they wanted me to they will offer on their own.

backwoodsborn10
Mar-05-2011, 6:04pm
this thread has been interesting. through many of you, i have gotten an idea of why this lady may have responded like she did. it seems there are 2 prominent types of personalities with some others falling somewhere in the middle. i will walk away from this having a new found awareness for others personal space. i will probably be a lot less forward asking someone to play their instrument. it seems one thing most folk that aren't instrument sharers have in common, are they don't ask to play others instruments either. that should be a good indicator as how to, or how not to aproach folks. and where i don't fully understand their thinking, i'm sure she was baffled by my thinking as well. and now i can say i won't harbor any hard feelings and hope she doesn't either. life is too short... this has been about the only way i have been able to try other mandolins. someone asked what my instrument looked like...i have a fairly expensive mandolin, without a pickguard,and not a scratch or blemish on it.hard pressed to even find a pick mark.i treat other peoples instruments like a loaded gun. being aware of every move i make so as not to make any mistakes.not that that matters...now i understand that's an invasion of some folks personal space. but for me...nothing on earth no matter how expensive is worth anything if you can't share it with others.:mandosmiley:

Dan Margolis
Mar-05-2011, 10:44pm
When I got my new mandolin, my wife didn't want me to let others play it. That lasted for five minutes. I like to hand it over, especially to a good player, so I can hear it sing.

michaelpthompson
Mar-05-2011, 11:53pm
I'm usually pretty easy about letting somebody play my instruments if they ask, but I know people who aren't, and for very good reason. I know one fellow who claims a borrower broke the neck on his guitar once, and now nobody touches his axe but him.

I sometimes offer a guitar when somebody mentions they could play a certain tune if they had one, but I confess to some trepidation watching to see how respectfully they will handle my baby. Haven't had mandos long enough for it to come up, but I'll probably have the same attitude, as long as the person seems reasonably trustworthy.

So I can see both sides of this. There's always a fear for the safety of your instrument in somebody else's hands, but the thing was created to make music, and I love seeing that happen.

BTW, I don't ask to borrow someone's instrument, except my son or daughter because we're just like that. I wouldn't ask anybody else, though I might accept if offered.

ColdBeerGoCubs
Mar-06-2011, 12:14am
I really don't care. I hope people play mine, though few ever ask unless I bring out the Breedlove. Something about that thing just draws people to it. Most of the time its because of the name, mainly guitar players who know Breedlove, but have no idea what a mandolin is and other times its been because people were blown away because someone brought out an oval hole.

I've had no issues at all, even when passing it around a late night jam circle that it got sucked into quicker than the beers were getting sucked down.

Bertram Henze
Mar-06-2011, 2:34am
it seems one thing most folk that aren't instrument sharers have in common, are they don't ask to play others instruments either. that should be a good indicator as how to, or how not to aproach folks. and where i don't fully understand their thinking, i'm sure she was baffled by my thinking as well. and now i can say i won't harbor any hard feelings and hope she doesn't either. life is too short...

There is wisdom there :cool:

Fliss
Mar-06-2011, 5:36am
.... i guess bein i never had ne money,i don't put much stock in "things". now i don't hold anything against this lady, i just don't understand this. ...

If you don't put much stock in things, perhaps that shows in the way you ask. If I felt that another person wouldn't take care of my things, I would be reluctant to put my things in their hands, whereas if they take care of their instruments and are respectful of other people's property, I wouldn't normally have a problem with saying yes.

If I want to play someone else's mandolin, the way I approach them will depend on how well I know them and what I know about their attitude to their instruments. If it's someone I know reasonably well and we've played each other's instruments before with no problems, then I wouldn't hesitate to say "is that your new Shippey, may I have a play?" But in that situation they'd probably already know I'd be keen to try it and would approach me first and say "My new Shippey's arrived, it's over in the corner if you want to go and have a play..."

If it's someone I don't know well, I'll approach more carefully and probably just begin by admiring the mandolin and asking them to show it to me. Their reaction to that will determine what happens next, but quite often when they see I am being respectful they will offer the opportunity for me to hold it and play it.

Fliss

8ch(pl)
Mar-06-2011, 5:37am
Our Folk Group once had a visitor show up who played Violin. He was expecting to find someone there with a Fiddle to use, my mandolin was the closest thing and he asked me to borrow it for a couple of songs. It took me by surprise and I didn't really want to let a Stranger use my instrument, but I relented.

I don't know what my reason for the reluctance could be really. There are few mandolins in the group and mine was the only one that evening. Mid Missouris are relatively rare in Nova Scotia. My second Mid Missouri doesn't have the travel and history of my old M-4 and I would probably be less possesive.

I also seem to rrcall that the fellow's physical approach was from behind on one side so that probably startled me.

Ryk Loske
Mar-06-2011, 5:48am
I also seem to rrcall that the fellow's physical approach was from behind on one side so that probably startled me.[/QUOTE]

Like a wolf on a caribou.

Ryk

Gary Hedrick
Mar-06-2011, 8:41am
I have let folks play my instruments a lot over my decades long attempt to play. I only refuse when: 1. They have been drinking. 2. When I've seen their style of playing or holding an instrument is sloppy and careless. 3. Wearing large belt buckles, shirts with rhinestones etc.

When I play others instruments...like at the tasting parties I have held or when I go to a music store I wear a pull over shirt and it covers my belt buckle.

There is NO reason for anothers instrument to be scratched when borrowing it other than just not being respectful of another's property....you don't flay around and try to play Rawhide like Bill....it isn't your property.

brunello97
Mar-06-2011, 11:31am
If Bill Monroe had scratched up my mandolin, I would have punched him in the face.

Mick

Rroyd
Mar-06-2011, 12:18pm
Several years ago, I asked a well-known mandolin personality if he would like to try out a quite-nice mandolin I owned. He accepted, but as he played, he indicated that he didn't really care much for that type of mandolin, and then ended by showing his disdain for it by handling it in a very innappropriate and potentially damaging manner before handing it back. Brunello97's thoughts were mild compared to mine, but there are laws . . . Fortunately, there was no damage, except to my view of him, not only as a musician but as a human being.

fatt-dad
Mar-06-2011, 12:45pm
My son has some friends I wouldn't loan my car, my daughter has some friends I would. The OP's question is not "yes" or "no." It's been posted by Shaun, it matters who you're handing it to. I never know at a jam, but I figure if I'm taking it out, it might get played by others. I also have insurance - would hate to lose an instrument for insurance money though. . .

f-d

barney 59
Mar-06-2011, 1:01pm
If someone has an instrument that lures (loars?) me in I will usually begin a conversation with the owner. "That's a beautiful...etc". If you know something about the brand or maker of the instrument that becomes part of the conversation. If I don't know I ask the owner about it. "What year was your Gilchrist made?" I have just indicated that I understand the value of the instrument. The owner of the instrument gets it that your not a complete crazy and that you do have a genuine interest in their instrument and music in general, maybe even their music.. Usually, because I've been staring doe eyed at the instrument or maybe it's the drool, the owner of the instrument will ask me if I want to try it out. Sometimes not --but I would never ask a complete stranger, they have to offer.

Jesse Harmon
Mar-06-2011, 1:23pm
I belonged to a solo classical guitar group and one guy always showed up without an instrument and wanted to borrow for the sign up and play section. He also played the longest and you had to get the hook to get him off. I think playing someone else's instrument has a personal element and you probably know whether it's going to be alright before you ask. I am pretty easy about it usually but I still say that common courtesy applies. If someone doesn't want anyone to play their instrument it's ok by me. I think they share their instrument by playing it for everyone to hear. I don't think you should expect to play anyone's instrument at a jam. Then there are those clowns who expect to take over a gig. I suppose those unwritten rules vary from group to group so why not cut someone a little slack and not take personal offense. On another note I have a friend who bought a short kayak so it would be easier to load and unload and then always wants to use my longer kayak when we get to the river.

fatt-dad
Mar-06-2011, 5:28pm
This fellow I know just swapped my Flatiron for his brand-new Mowrey f-4 hybrid (13-fret neck joint). It was great fun for three fiddle tunes. It was fun for me to play this new (great) mandolin and it was fun to hear him play my Flatiron.

f-d

Willie Poole
Mar-06-2011, 5:48pm
I used to pass my mandolins around and let people play them mostly so I could hear what it sounded like in someone else`s hands, then one day while playing out of doors and the band was on a break I let a fellow play my mandolin and he took it off of the stand that I usually sit it in when on a break, he played it and handled it very nicely and seemed to know what he was doing....Then when he placed it back onto the stand he didn`t sitit on correctly and a gust of wind knocked it clean off of the stand, it has a nice ding that isn`t visible from the front but I was upset because it could have done some damage to the neck, it did knock the A strings out of tune but I am a tuning geek so that wasn`t a problem...Now if someone asks to see my mandolin I hold it and let them scan it all they want to, I point out the inlays and the fancy tail piece etc and let them just look from a distance, no need for them to play it, its not a Loar, not quite anyway....If it is someone that is a full time mandolin player and I know for sure he keeps his instument nice I will let them look it over and play a tune on it but he has to be an accomplished picker to put his hands on my instrument....It`s not all becaus I want to keep it pristine because I have a nice scratch make by a zealous dobro player at a jam session and he never even said squat about doing it...I just don`t think I need anymore to beat it up for me, I deserve to do that.....Willie

Andrew Roberts
Mar-06-2011, 7:57pm
gettcha a distressed model and quit frettin....
Haha, thanks for your insight, Ken! That comment was enough to get me out of my posting hibernation.

And just so I can feel like I have contributed some to the discussion, I have had two notable mando sharing experiences. I was playing out on the streets in Nashville one night and a fellow street musician stopped to chat and sing a few songs. He asked if he could play my mandolin, and I somewhat reluctantly let him. I am a pretty laid back guy, but I have to admit I watched him like a hawk as he played, and actually was quite nervous for the few minutes that he had it in his hands. He returned it to me in the exact same condition I had given it to him in, but it still wasn't a very pleasant experience.

On the other hand, my 5 yr old nephew has always been very interested in my playing when he sees me, but usually I am kind of reluctant to let him hold it, for fairly obvious reasons. However, last summer at a family reunion I was playing and he wanted to give it a try. I figured he was getting a little older and it would probably be fine, so I put the strap around his neck and tried to show him what to do with his fingers while he strummed. He ended up putting a few little scratches on the soundboard while strumming, but I didn't care a bit. They just served as a reminder of a great experience with loved ones, and who knows... maybe he will grow up to be the next Thile!

Not sure what sense to make out of my ramblings, but it is interesting that (minor) damage done by a loved one filled me with happiness, while having a stranger play my mandolin without incident left me feeling very much how I imagine Gollum felt...

Fretbear
Mar-07-2011, 6:23am
I've read stories of Bill Monroe returning a mandolin to it's owner with the back full of scratches from his belt buckle.
The owner of the mandolin was Bill's repairman Charlie Derrington and the mandolin was Charlie's Loar. Bill wore a coffee cup sized hole in the finish on the back with his big spiky Bluegrass Boys belt buckle. Probably argued about the price of the repairs to his own Loar afterwards as well....Always a class act....

Gerry Hastie
Mar-07-2011, 6:38am
I've recently bought a new mandolin. Relative to my income/circumstances I feel I have maxed by budget and therefore this new instrument is very special to me. Would I let others play it? In a private setting with someone who I know well, then yes. Jam sessions or casual strummers? Mmmm, I don't think so. Cars that I have bought have been similar in that it is always what I can afford at the time. I have never let anyone 'borrow' my car whom I did not know very well indeed and knew about how they drive theirs. It's just not gonna happen. Ultimately do your own thing but always allow people to do theirs too.

Stephen Perry
Mar-07-2011, 7:18am
Certainly a difficult issue. I don't ask, I wait to be asked. If I'm interested, I often get asked if I'd like to play the instrument. I'm very careful. Some of those instruments are valuable. Stradivari and del Gesu violins seem costly these days. I have never scratched one.

Being in the business, I end up with people playing instruments and doing damage, then denying it. I really hate that. I have people come in and pick up some customer's instrument without asking. That is very very rude. And some people are a bit covert about flailing away at instruments. Some people buy and then return instruments with damage. Obvious damage. This is a bit rude, too. And has resulted in trouble.

I apparently now have a new personal $4000 classical guitar. It was new new new. Flamed maple and stunning spruce, Spanish made. I might be able to get the fingernail marks out of the top, or maybe not. No way someone could do that to a guitar and not realize it. Both bass and treble side. I do not know who did this to my guitar. Very rude. I know I can get the dents and dings out and level, but I'd damage the finish greatly and need to repolish the entire top. That isn't fair!!! And I don't want to do it. So I'll just play it. A friend took my last guitar and wouldn't give it back, so I needed one (he's paying!). But this same moron did in a $3000 guitar at the same time. I'll just sell it at cost to a student.

I remember well finding that 8 of my mandolins had the same fingernail brush marks on them. That was a buffing job and a half.

So I never ask and am very careful. And I watch the customers carefully. But stuff happens.

AlanN
Mar-07-2011, 7:31am
Well, that is downright criminal. Stephen, DNA testing could ID the perp, then you could have Homeland Security waiting the next time this guy comes into the shop!

Bertram Henze
Mar-07-2011, 7:34am
"you don't mind if I play your mandolin, do you? DO YOU!?"

http://www.mz.jena.de/joomla/images/stories/illustrationen/nosferatu.jpg

Randi Gormley
Mar-07-2011, 11:36am
Well, at least he wouldn't expose it to sunlight!

(I know, I know, this is from the old mythos, where he traveled by day, but, hey, i couldn't resist)

AlanN
Mar-07-2011, 11:46am
Those nail claws are the quintessential WMD - Weapons of MAS Destruction :)) :mandosmiley:

catmandu2
Mar-07-2011, 11:48am
Well, at least he wouldn't expose it to sunlight!

(I know, I know, this is from the old mythos, where he traveled by day, but, hey, i couldn't resist)

This must be a very old photo indeed...since when have musicians been active during daytime?..

Darren Bailey
Mar-07-2011, 12:40pm
Of course, begging other people to play your instrument and getting lots of declines is an awful way to understand how cheap and nasty your instrument seems to other people!

KristinEliza
Mar-07-2011, 12:52pm
I consider all of my instruments works of art - I know there are going to get scratched up eventually...but the longer I can delay it, the better. I can understand not sharing a brand new instrument for awhile - the honeymoon isn't over yet!

None of my mandos are 'high end', so I have no problem letting anyone play them. My general rule of thumb is...can I afford to fix it / replace it? If the answer is yes, then I let people play them...otherwise I keep them to myself.

I'm more nervous about playing other people's instruments. I only ask to play, if they have offered the instrument. While I know I am careful with instruments...I would be DEVASTATED if I put a nic / ding / scratch on any one else's instrument.

Thank you to all the wonderful people who have let me play their instruments! Through their generosity I've gotten to play a Loar, a Gibson MM, a Gilchrist mandola, a really nice Collings MTO, a Weber, a Calace, and a Brian Dean! :mandosmiley:

For those of you that don't like to share - I don't hold it against you - just don't expect me to share with you! ;)

Steve Ostrander
Mar-07-2011, 1:29pm
Here's a hypothetical question: How many of you would have let WSM play their mandolin? He used to beat 'em like a rented mule.

I don't get the concept of "it's just a tool." My dad taught me to take care of my tools. He taught me to take care of everything I own--my car, my home. To me instruments are also objects of art that a craftsman has spent many hours laboring over. It seems disrespectful to not take care.

I understand that stuff happens. My car gets scratched. It ain't a Maserati. I don't like it when it happens, but I don't lose sleep over it.

Fliss
Mar-07-2011, 2:07pm
On considered reflection, after what I did at the folk club last night, I've now come to the conclusion that I shouldn't be allowed to handle good quality instruments, even if they are my own!!

What did I do? I accidentally bashed my lovely Newell mandolin against a microphone - it didn't half make a loud noise! Thankfully, the microphone wasn't injured, and Keith must put a very good finish on his instruments, because the mandolin only picked up a tiny ding which you have to look really closely to see.

Nasty moment though!

Fliss

Paul Kotapish
Mar-07-2011, 2:44pm
I actually encourage curious folks to play my instruments. I may have picked up a few extra dings or minor scratches over the years, but very few, and I reckon those are a fair trade for the good will and increased interest in the music that the sharing has fostered.

My experience over the years is that a lot of serious players with top-shelf instruments are generally willing to let someone else play them if the circumstances are conducive and they sense a genuine interest. The numerous posts throughout the forum about close encounters with famous Loars tells the story pretty well.

On the other hand, unless I already knew someone pretty well, I probably wouldn't ask to play their instrument outright. If I'm curious, I'll compliment the appearance and/or tone and ask a few questions about how they like it, how it plays, etc. If the person is willing to share, those questions are usually enough to spark an offer on their part to let me play it. If they aren't, that approach results in no hard feelings or awkwardness on either side.

AlanN
Mar-07-2011, 3:46pm
I accidentally bashed my lovely Newell mandolin against a microphone

You should see Josh Williams' Gilchrist!

Rodney Riley
Mar-07-2011, 4:22pm
I have a fender mando I've loaned out to a high schooler who wanted to learn, and to another member of our church who purchased his own after playing it. (My main reason for loaning, passing on the love) My Godin has had maybe 5 people play it. And my Weber I've actually asked 3 people to play it just so I could hear it's potential. What I couldn't understand is Fazio's Frets and Friends had to buff out a lot of pick scratches in it before they sent it to me. I have had it 2 years now and I've never had a pick touch the top. Like man, the strings are 2 or 3 inches away from the top. How in the world would you ever have to dig that deep to get it to play? I have put 2 dings in it walking through doorways here at the house. And have a nice scratch below the bottom F-slot from my pinky nail when my strap decided to turn loose once.

I don't ask to play others instruments because I'm not that good of player. They wouldn't want to listen to me.:(

My Harley, I let a friend use it for six months because I was working too much to ride. And he couldn't afford a bike at the time. He now has his own. His son has one because he learned to ride on mine and is now an Illinois State Motorcycle Policeman. Others I let ride it have also purchased Harleys.

My car. I've had it almost 4 years now. Does not have a door ding in it yet. (although a lady did hit it once with her truck door while I was sitting in it. Thank God for the protective trim, it wasn't dented.) I've only let 5 people drive it besides my wife and kids. Cars, I am not brand faithfull. Bikes, I have a Yamaha now, but would go Harley again and tell all who ask. Harley! Mando/guitar, just get one! And play!! :)

TonyEarth
Mar-07-2011, 4:46pm
I lend it to most people that i know, even if they're not musicians, because they usually treat it with a lot of care, sometimes even too much, but that's just my experience. I can understand if someone doesn't want to lend it. People have different types of connections with their instruments.

Connor_Briggs
Mar-07-2011, 7:08pm
I personally don't mind 'most' people playing my mando, but if I think somethings gonna happen to it, I forbid. I've never asked anyone to play their personal mando, I let them ask me to play it. But I have been fortunate enough to play a 1922 Lloyd Loar Signed Gibson, 2003 Gibson F-5 Master Model, and so on and so forth. But I make a possitive effort not to scratch, or do any type of damage. That would make them not to ever let you play it again! On the other hand, I do have a few small, finish scratches, but does make me not responsible enough? I don't think so..Scratches do happen but if it does, it better be my own!

Willie Poole
Mar-07-2011, 7:16pm
I was in Nashville a few years ago at the Gibson repair shop and sitting on a table was Bobby Osbornes Loar and his Fern and the repairman showed them to me and asked if I would like to play them, I said I don`t even want to touch them....So afraid I would get so excited that I might just drop one and Lord knows I can`t afford to pay for repairs to one of those...

Also I have had people play my guitar and when I got it back the strings were dead because the oil in their fingers just killed the strings so thats one reason I very seldom let anyone play one of my "working" mandolins...The bass player in my band also plays mandolin so I let him take a drive on it every now and then but he never asks, I ask him to play it so I can hear what it sounds like in someone elses hands....

This is a very subjective subject and I`m sure everyone has their reasons for letting or not letting others play their mandolins and this could go on for ever and ever....