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Philstix
Feb-28-2011, 8:59pm
I have acquired some Western Bigleaf Maple rounds from a nearly 4 foot diameter tree. The center is rotton. The good wood, i.e. unstained wood on the outside of the rounds varies from about 5 inches to 8 inches thick. It is intensly curly throughout. The rounds are about 28" long and I need to split them into pieces to dry. The ends are sealed and they will all be treated with a fungicide. The tree has been down less than a week. I hope to split them to between 2" and 3" thick. Anyone done this? Any advice? My main issues are to get the split to follow the grain and to get it to split in a straight line inside to out.

Dale Ludewig
Feb-28-2011, 9:12pm
Talk to Spruce (Bruce). He, I believe, is at Wintergrass right now. I'll bet he'll pick up this thread when he's got the time. Splitting will follow the grain.

sunburst
Feb-28-2011, 10:02pm
Sawing might be best for curly maple, but if you have or can borrow a fro, that is the tool to try splitting with. Either way, I'd go for thicker pieces to reduce waste, assuming quite a bit of waste at each surface. Probably 5 or 6 inches at the bark surface. You might try splitting the round in half to see if it splits straight, and if it does, saw it straight into wedges. If the split twists, you will probably still be better off sawing straight and accepting grain run out in the pieces.
If Spruce comes along here he might add to this, or possibly recommend something else, and if so, follow his advice.

Spruce
Feb-28-2011, 11:55pm
If Spruce comes along here he might add to this, or possibly recommend something else, and if so, follow his advice.

You do know that you folks are the only ones in the world who would... ;)

First of all, we're building mandolins, correct??

OK, splitting is fine for getting this wood processed quickly, and that is only true if the wood splits straight...
And a good % of maple does want to split straight, unlike spruce...
Splitting is wasteful, but it's quick.
And if it's just for yourself, so what if it's wasteful??

OK, I'd aim for 3-4" on the arch--the thick part of your billet near the bark...
Important!!. Get rid of your bark as you go, or get rid of it later, but get rid of it.
It attracts insects later on...

Forget the fungicide.
Instead, get the billets into a heated dry space.
Criss-cross stack them, so that very little maple touches maple...

Put fans on the pile, and blow 'em dry till they are dry to the touch...
Fungus is your biggest enemy...

As far as an end sealer, 20% mineral spirits mixed with 80% wax--heated--is a good and cheap way to go...
Coleman stoves work fine for this...

Got any pics??
Love to see 'em....

Luck!!

tree
Mar-01-2011, 9:01am
Second the request for photos.

I've tried that technique for diluting wax with mineral spirits (I mixed mine in a jar sitting in a saucepan of water which I slowly heated on the range in the kitchen). My ratio was closer to 50/50, which may not be suitable for endgrain coating - it's roughly the consistency of bacon grease at summertime shop temperature. But I used it as a vehicle for making beeswax easier to apply as a final coat over a finished piece of wooden ware.

Second also the importance of debarking quickly - bark is a major barrier for moisture to leave the wood in a radial direction, and the phloem (inner bark) is a source of carbohydrates for both insects and fungi.

BradKlein
Mar-01-2011, 10:18am
Would a froe work for maple in this size? I would think wedges and hammer would be the ticket for a hobbiest wood splitter, no? (I'm just a very occasional firewood splitter, so I really don't know)

I suppose that band saws, chain saws, mills and power splitters are all options if you have them, or access to them, but I was taking inspiration from Spruce's signature photo.

sunburst
Mar-01-2011, 10:29am
Even if a froe won't split the piece, it at least gets you started on a straight line from bark to heart, and you can continue with wedges from there if need be.

swampy
Mar-01-2011, 10:36am
I've split a bit of maple with a froe. Works very well.

Spruce
Mar-01-2011, 12:21pm
Even if a froe won't split the piece, it at least gets you started on a straight line from bark to heart, and you can continue with wedges from there if need be.

Yeah, that's the ticket whether you're splitting spruce or maple...
That starter-line created by the froe is pretty important....
There's no froe in my avatar pic, but I'm sure I marked the split before I hit it with the wedges....


The rounds are about 28" long...

That's actually a good length to be forced to work with...
You can get your long F5 sides (if you're gonna build F5s), necks, F5 backs, or maybe two A-models end-to-end if there's no discoloration or checking on the ends....

Make sure you take pics, as the whole process is very photogenic...
And a lot of us need a vicarious maple-scrounging trip right about now... ;)

Philstix
Mar-01-2011, 10:09pm
Here are a few pics. They aren't very good as I had to go after work and the light was fading. The tree was a little over four feet in diameter at the base and about 3 feet 8 inches at about 15 feet where it branched out. You can kinda see the curl on some of the darker wood, it is very consistent and deep. The good white wood on the outside of the log varies from about 4 1/2 inches wide to 10 1/2 inches wide with the average being about 6 inches. I was hoping to get pieces for mandolins, especially after seeing the curl and also some ukulele sets especially from the thinner areas. Bruce, you will recall that I posted on the ukulele forum about this. I tried to find someone to mill this for me but didn't have any luck, no one wanted to quarter saw or do less than 300$ minimum. So the day after it was cut down I find out that someone we know has a portable woodmiser bandsaw mill and a front loader. He told me that the shortest pieces he can mill are 29 inches. Ouch! I originally had told them to cut the log to 30 to 36 inch lengths but concluded it would be too hard to split. Maybe we can figure a way to mill smaller pieces. If so would the dimensions on the wedges be smaller?

Spruce
Mar-01-2011, 11:32pm
OK, it looks like splitting this out is the way to go...

That rotten spalted redheart will make your job a lot easier, and this should go pretty quickly....

Liberate that outside "skin" of white wood, leaving about 5" of thickness measured at the cambium on the billets...
De-bark, seal the ends, and stack as I previously stated, and you should be OK...

Do this now...

It looks like the figure runs out beyond the crotch, so you are just looking at liberating that lower section of the tree...

Luck!!

jasona
Mar-02-2011, 3:43pm
(and take pictures as you go)

Tom C
Mar-02-2011, 4:21pm
I am trying to understand this as I have a nice size sugar maple nearing the end of it's life. So please correct me here....
Would this have to be slab cut to avoid the rotten section? Quartered would not work. Correct?

sunburst
Mar-02-2011, 4:56pm
Not correct. "Pie" cutting (or splitting) will yield pieces 4 1/2" to 10" wide with vertical grain. Picture the slices of a pie with the center gone. That's neither quartered nor slabbed, technically.
That may or may not have anything to do with how your sugar maple will or should be processed, assuming it turns out to be worth harvesting.

Philstix
Mar-03-2011, 2:28pm
Well I did a split with my homkemade froe and it came out like this. I wonder if I would do better to jig up my chain saw to cut the cants? For today I am trying to get the log split into pieces and transported home to debark and split/saw. Here is a pic, at least it shows the curl.

Stephen Perry
Mar-03-2011, 2:47pm
On tough stuff, I'll split some to see how the grain goes, if I'm not sure, then chalk out and hit it with the chainsaw. I can cut very precisely with a chainsaw. Others may have different mileage.

On the other hand, I split a whole silver maple once with a maul, then noticed as it was aging for firewood that it seemed to ring and feel nice, so I pulled out a bunch of the best pieces. Really nice violin necks!

sunburst
Mar-03-2011, 3:10pm
Nice curl, and not a bad split. You can save some waste if you can saw nice and straight with the chain saw, and there's no better way to saw it in the field other than a hand rip saw, and the extra time of hand ripping isn't worth the wood savings to me! The straighter the cut, the less waste, and if the chain saw cuts a 3/8" inch kerf that's better than an inch or so of waste from milling the split surface flat, but as I said, that's not a bad split so, as Bruce said, splitting is a lot faster.

tree
Mar-03-2011, 3:51pm
For debarking (especially this time of year, if that tree was recently cut) the froe can easily do it if the sap is up and the bark is loose. Or a hatchet can make quick work of it if the sap isn't yet running and the bark is still tight. It has been unseasonably warm in my neck of the woods for most of the past 3 or 4 weeks. I'm gonna have to make a foray or 2 for morels sometime soon . . .

Philstix
Mar-08-2011, 1:37am
I decided that splitting it out would about kill me. Notice the third wedge needed to split the partial round. To split open the whole round took all three wedges fully into the log and a 6 foot pry bar. We worked out a way to cut pieces on the portable sawmill I mentioned earlier. I had him cut about a third of what I have. The pieces are mostly three inches thick at the cambium, turning the pieces to have them as closely quartered as possible. You see them stacked in the garage, which is semi-heated and in which I can run a fan. The rest I will probably cut up by chainsaw, making them a little thicker as I can't be as precise. So I have a couple of questions. I am debarking them and trying to get them dry to the touch. When they are dry to the touch (any idea how long that should take?) can I move them to my back deck which is covered but open to air on the sides? Indoor room is at a premium. Did I make them a good thickness or should I have had him cut them wider? I may still have him do some of the rest.

sunburst
Mar-08-2011, 10:13am
The deck is not ideal, but it should be OK for stacking the billets. Not sure about the thickness, I tend to like to split things relatively thick to reduce waste and maximize potential uses (I might want something thick for a project, never know), but thinner dries faster with less chance of checking or splitting during drying.

Spruce
Mar-08-2011, 1:37pm
Indoor room is at a premium.

How about renting a heated storage unit??
You got quite a few K worth of wood there....

Everything looks good...

Yeah, I thought that hole in the center of the tree went all the way to the crotch, thus the splitting recommendation...

Keep a sharp eye out for any discoloration...

You could mix up a solution of Borax/H2O and dip or spray it on the pieces...
I've used it successfully on piles that I couldn't monitor, and it worked beautifully to protect against fungus...

Nice looking wood!

Dale Ludewig
Mar-08-2011, 2:13pm
Yes, that's a whole hunk of good looking wood! Like Bruce said, take some precautionary actions with the Borax.
Lots of air circulation needed here to prevent what is obviously a real find. I wonder how many such wonderful things get put in the landfill or such every day. Glad you noticed!

Jessbusenitz
Mar-08-2011, 6:38pm
That is cool! I'm getting ready to cut up a couple of big walnut trees, but I doubt I find any figure close to that!

Magnus Geijer
Mar-08-2011, 6:56pm
Oooh! Those pictures are making me have inappropriate ideas about the maples in the back yard.

John Arnold
Mar-10-2011, 5:34am
Bruce gives good advice, as usual. Two suggestions.
1) I see that the sawn pieces have parallel faces, meaning that the cross-stacked wood is touching the next piece in a fairly large area. Cut some dry sticks to put between the pieces to prevent staining from mold growth. For pieces that thick, I usually use 3/4" sticks, cut from scrap 2 X 4's.
2) Put fans on the wood. I have four or five of the cheap box fans from Wal Mart, and they certainly get a lot of use when I am cutting woods that are susceptible to staining from mold. Start with the high speed setting for a few days. After that, a lower speed setting should be fine.
Inspect the wood for mold every few days.

Philstix
Mar-11-2011, 6:37pm
So here is where I am . I have removed the bark. I stickered the flatter pieces and have several fans going. I can't do more til Monday. At that point I have about as much again of wood which I will be sawing out, probably by chainsaw into thicker billets, I'm planning on 4 to 5 inches thick.
I have a borax solution which I will spray on all of it. Most of the pieces are getting to feel dry on the surface.

Spruce
Mar-11-2011, 10:15pm
So-oooo, Philstix, are you of the opinion--like many--that tonewoods are waaa-y overpriced? ;)

Nice job...

Bill Snyder
Mar-12-2011, 10:16am
Looks like you have enough to build several instruments down the line.

Spruce
Mar-12-2011, 11:03am
Looks like you have enough to build several instruments down the line.

...with a nice homogenous look, and weights and workabilities that you can dial in from instrument-to-instrument...

Everyone should work up a tree when they get into instrument making...

A nice spruce is next, Philstix... ;)

Philstix
Mar-12-2011, 2:45pm
Tonewood is soooo overpriced.....not! It is good to go through the process to better understand where it comes from and how it is processed. A lot of hard work. Machinery would make some of it a lot easier' but then again machinery is expensive. I'm looking forward to being able to make a series of instruments from the same wood and compare. It should be a great way to learn.
Thanks for all of the input - without it I would be lost in this process. I do have some Western Red Cedar wedges that I split out on an old growth log. They have been drying for about 5 or 6 years. I think they are too soft for a mandolin top. If somebody uses red cedar I could send him one to check it out. I would be curious to see what they think. Same price I paid. 0$

Spruce
Mar-12-2011, 5:15pm
If somebody uses red cedar I could send him one to check it out.

The most important thing to look for in cedar is hardness...
If you push your fingernail into the wood, is there resistance, or is it soft and mushy?
You want the former...

It always splits straight, so that's not an issue....

And I can live with some bi-coloration for my own builds...

But I really like the cedar to have some integrity, and that fingernail test will tell you a lot....

Michael Lewis
Mar-13-2011, 1:38am
Everyone should work up a tree when they get into instrument making...

[/QUOTE]
I couldn't agree more. Probably the only way anyone will get a sense of the true value of instrument wood.

Links
Mar-13-2011, 1:21pm
So-oooo, Philstix, are you of the opinion--like many--that tonewoods are waaa-y overpriced? ;)

Nice job...

I'm beginning to think firewood is "NOT" overpriced!

Spruce
Mar-13-2011, 5:31pm
Firewood is one of those weird commodities that I wouldn't buy--or sell--for the going price...
Can't think of too many other things that fall into that category...

Philstix
Mar-14-2011, 11:27pm
When you say watch out for discoloration, could you be more explicit. Most of the faces of the billets have turned orange. Plane off a shaving and it is white underneath. Do I need to get it to white wood and blow a little more warm air over it? It is all pretty much dry to the touch. In other words does this oxidation of the outer face need to go in order to watch out for the mold? I started today cutting the rest of the log into billets with my chainsaw. I'm making these a little thicker, about five inches at the bark end.

sunburst
Mar-14-2011, 11:44pm
Watch for blue, mostly, or any off color or streaks. The surface will darken more-or-less uniformly with exposure to air and light, that's to be expected and is no problem. Blue, in particular, indicates fungus.