Mandolin Player Learning to Play Bass

[John Flynn]

I'm primarily a mandolin, octave mandolin and guitar player, but I've vounteered to take up the electric bass for a ongoing need at church. I played basic rock bass many years ago, not great, but OK. I mostly did it by copying the bass lines from the music we were covering. I just bought an instrument, a used Yamaha RBX350 in great shape and I've been playing around with it, learning scales, etc.

Here's my question: Can anyone recommend a good bass instructional material for someone who is already an intermediate fretted instrument player, already knows a decent amount of theory and has a decent ear and sense of rhythm? Most of the materials I've seen are for starting out with bass as the first instrument one has ever played. And the advanced materials, e.g. "Book 2" assume that you have gone though "Book 1."

I already get the basic mechanics of the instrument. I need to learn to create bass lines from scales, chords and arpeggios to fit the music. That is where I am truly a beginner. As a mandolin player, I'm used to thinking in terms of the higher end of the sonic space, and playing melody and rhythm.

[Jim Broyles]

I played a little bass before I played mandolin, but I have been playing a lot of bass at church in the past six years or so. You probably already know enough to be able to play bass, musicality-wise, but you just need to concentrate on hearing bass parts now. Hum or scat bass lines along with songs you know, then try to play them on bass. I'm sure you have enough musical knowledge in order to do justice to bass. Just try to think like a bass player, but in order to do that you have to know how bass sounds within a song. Listen to stuff you like and get familiar with what the bass is doing and when it does it. You can do it.

[John Flynn]

Thanks Jim! That's great advice. I probably should revisit some Beatles stuff. There are some examples of great bass lines there!

I'm working on getting scales and arpeggios down. That's going pretty well. I figure I can use single notes on the chord changes as my foundation, either the chord root or the listed bass tone, e.g. D/G would be a G. Then I can build on that with passing tones and chord tones, based on what I "hear" as a bass line.

Questions: Do you pluck with your fingers, or use a pick? I know it's orthodox to use the fingers, but I kind of like the sound I get with a heavy pick, and of course, it feels more comfortable. Also, I'm thinking of getting flatwound strings. Any recommendations?

[Jim Broyles]

I thought I needed a pick when I first started doing it so I bought some rubber and felt picks, but I soon went to fingers. Now I only use a pick when I'm doing funk or if I want to sound like early Paul McCartney. You'll probably like how flatwounds feel, but they have a somewhat darker tone. If you set the treble all the way up and the bass down you can get a bright sound out of them. I use black tapewounds - they are round wound but covered with nylon tape. My bass is fretless, so it slides and glides very nicely. GHS has the lowest price I have found on flats, and I use Fender tapes.

[catmandu2]

One of the better instrument sites on the net is "Talkbass" http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f45/ . If you spend some time surfing around there, you're apt to find answers to all of your questions and more.

Have fun with that bass!

[Steve Ostrander]

someone who is already an intermediate fretted instrument player, already knows a decent amount of theory and has a decent ear and sense of rhythm?

John, you already know more than most who take up the bass!

I started on guitar, switched to bass, and then on to mandolin about 3 years ago. While thinking about scales and arpeggios is fine, If you approach the bass like guitar or mandolin and play runs up and down the neck, it's going sound very busy. Stanley Clarke can pull it off, but I would just concern myself with holding down the bottom for now.

Typically I thought about bass "patterns" which were scales or parts of scales, mostly blues scales since I played in a blues band. On bass, a blues pattern in E is the same as a blues pattern in A, just played on a different string. It's a matter of learning the different positions or keys that you want to play out of. Variations are allowed, even encouraged, and that's what seperates the novice from the advanced player.

While you CAN play chords on bass, I usually left that to the guitar players. My approach was more rhythmic, I thought of the bass as a cross between a percussion and melody instrument. With mandolin I chop on beat 2 where the snare drum would be playing. With bass I listened to where the bass drum was playing, usually on beat 1, unless it was some funky syncopated tune we were doing. Again, rules are meant to be bent or broken, but you have to learn the rules before you can bend or break them.

One thing for sure, you won't be needing those callouses you've been building on mandolin!

[John Flynn]

Thanks for the encouragement guys! I got through my first church service playing bass. I pretty much just played chord roots on the first beat of the chord changes, plus a few 5ths and passing tones where they seemed appropriate. The choir director liked it. She told me I should have cranked up the volume more, and she is usually telling instrumentalists to turn it down! I'm now a member of the TalkBass forum and I'm getting some good advice over there also. The whole bass thing is now seeming like a fun challenge rather than a daunting one. So thanks again.

[Earl Gamage]

The "Lost Art of Country Bass" is well regarded. I have it and it's not beginner material. It has some great material if you want to practice bass a lot.

[bassthumper]

i'm a bass player learning to play mandolin...i play upright and martin b-1(similar to electric)...at first i tried learning as much as possible...and a wise old base player told me to learn the root positions in all of the neck...then learn a half dozen patterns "L" "box" top to bottom of neck and up down neck...often not striking the string will have more effect that striking it....by staying true to the root and tossing in some walks and flourishes (not too many or too often) but to complement the singer and other pickers i can appear much better than i truly am....getting the root and timing down for others is the bass players main job and by keeping solid time it allows solos to push the envelope knowing your bass is the lifeline to pull them back if they show off a bit much..in bluegras i'm learning the mando mostly chops or augments where the bass leaves a gap...understanding both instruments gives the player a better knowledge toward pleasing an audience...at an informal jam learning to casually manipulat the other pickers without disrupting the song is also an amusing way to make drunks trip and fall into campfires and creeks...although it sometimes attracts drunk women to try to stand entirely too close to the bass..

[John Flynn]

bassthumper:

Good advice and good humor, thanks. I think I may know what you mean by an "L" box, but I'm not sure. Could you tell me more about that?

[bassthumper]

john..."L" box...find a 'g' in first position on 'e' string and thump once...move finger down to 'a' string on same fret...thump once....stay on 'a' string moving down two frets...thump that...you just did I IV V...in an Lpattern...so long as you know where the position is for the I and keep good time with the IV & V you can walk around or play all kinds of stuff to keep yourself amused in any key no need to rummage for a capo....although i have considered getting a giant capo made to clip on my headstock just to see if anyone asks about it...just make sure you meet everyone on time back at the candy store or the b&#%o picker may fall on top of the drunk in the campfire...if the drunk chick trying to get your bass to buy her a margarita is'nt wearing a ring on the 'no trespassing' finger remember all you really need to do is the simple I IV V...giving you ample freetime to chat with her or even get a phone number....

[bassthumper]

john....also learn your banjos while learning your bass...if it's a brandnew lowerend banjo and the picker appears to have spent more time holding it in front of the mirror than which end to blow in ....have at it, this person will only get louder and more obnoxiousas the second hand moves from 2 to 11 on your watch...if it's a stelling virginian or old gibson play nice....those stellings are dynomite and the owners know how to use them...if there is'nt a back on the b*$^o...fair game...besides they won't generally notice...as there is only really one oldtime song....with 17,536 different titles

[Mandolin Mick]

John-

I learned to play bass by studying the bass work of Paul McCartney's Beatles work. His runs are transcribed in The Beatles Complete Scores as well as countless sites on the Internet.

The Beatles catalog has just about every genre of music that you'll need, i.e. rock, folk, country, jazz, blues, etc. (except the King of Music ... Bluegrass ;)).

I played in a Beatles tribute band around the country for years and I strongly recommend studying Paul's work. :)

Paul plays with a pick and you need to do that to get the proper attack on the strings!

[John Flynn]

bassthumper: Thanks, that's what I thought you were talking about, but I wanted to be sure. I play tenor banjo also, so I'm learning lots of things on this thread!

mick: I think that's great advice. I do have the Complete Scores and I have been perusing the bass lines. McCartney was amazing on the bass and a fantastic guitarist also. Nice looking Hofner, BTW. I've really been looking at those since this bass thing started. That might be my next instrument purchase!

[Mandolin Mick]

John-

Glad to be of service. If you do get a Hofner, Paul played flatwound strings. That's the only way to get that sound! The Hofner is the closest thing in an electric bass to the sound of an upright. Warm and woody. :)

[Jim Broyles]

Higher note = up. V is up two frets from IV, not down. And I have a fretless Jazz Bass with tapewounds which sounds more like an upright than my Höfner did. YMMV, but that's how I heard it.

[Mandolin Mick]

I have a fretless Jazz Bass with black tapewounds. I think the Hofner sounds more like an upright. However, I have the model that McCartney played from `61-`63; "Love Me Do" thru "With the Beatles" (UK). The pickups are both set closer to the neck and has a different tone than the one he was given by Hofner; which he still plays.

[bassthumper]

right jim....up as in higher note....i always think about down as towards my feet on the upright....i assure you i will make that mistake many times...of course i must warn anyone taking bass advice from me ...rule#1----one wrong note is a mistake, two or more strung out as i meander back to the candystore is JAZZ and if they're not throwing rocks i'm doin' it right.........

[catmandu2]

right jim....up as in higher note....i always think about down as towards my feet on the upright....i assure you i will make that mistake many times...of course i must warn anyone taking bass advice from me ...rule#1----one wrong note is a mistake, two or more strung out as i meander back to the candystore is JAZZ and if they're not throwing rocks i'm doin' it right.........

Never, never, never (never) refer to "up" the neck as "down"... whether you're playing upright bass or carnatic violin. :(


(never)

[bassthumper]

sorry catmandu.....(sob sob...hangs head in shame)....but by some other exotic system of thought can i still (think) of down as up, if i keep it to myself....i've come too far as a bass player to have to go back to circle one and start over now...

[catmandu2]

Well, there is that. ;) (maybe it's time to change my sig line)

[bassthumper]

i hope we were able to help john before we got silly on his thread....enjoy that bass john....

[Jim Broyles]

Okay, but to tell you the truth, I don't think any fretted bass sounds like an upright. And we didn't get silly. I am sure that John picked up some good info from us.

[John Flynn]

Thanks, guys. I did get a lot of help. And it wouldn't be the Cafe' if we didn't have some fun on these threads!

[bassthumper]

my b-1 can sound as close to my upright as any....the exception being those big bodied taylors ....electric i've heard...
but it still ain't got it....and i must hit the strings in a way that pushes even less air....i'ce played some pretty natural sounding electrics but still beleive most who say they sound like uprights are just wanting to believe that....
two basses i am itching to try are 1-the breedlove acoustic and 2- the carvin hollowbody acoustic electric...
anybody thumped on either of them?

[Steve L]

I would look at Ed Friedland's stuff like "Building Walking Bass Lines" or his Hal Leonard methods and DVDs. I met him and did a gig with him a while back when he lived in Boston. He's a great player and very down to earth and serious about helping people play. He was on the Berklee faculty for a while. You can get a peek of his stuff on Amazon and possibly Youtube.

[generankin]

I'm the opposite, was a bassist (well, guitarist first) for many years before I took up the mandolin. Some 60 years ago, friends were organizing a blues band, lacked a bass, so I taught myself. I had a decent working knowledge of theory, and had paid attention to what others played in the blues but (frankly) kept it simple.

If you know the chord progressions in the tunes you'll be playing, play the 1 and the 5, then work out when the tune says walking up from the 1 via the 3 and/or the 4 makes sense. Keep it simple, stay tight with the drummer, keep the time, support the tune harmonically - but do not wander over the melody. When I play in blues jams and the 'leader' asks for a particular bass line, my response is usually I'll listen and play what fits in (learning someone else's line on the spot usually leads to disaster, unless you're a VERY quick learner).

[ChrisWallace1]

Thanks for the encouragement guys! I got through my first church service playing bass. I pretty much just played chord roots on the first beat of the chord changes, plus a few 5ths and passing tones where they seemed appropriate. The choir director liked it. She told me I should have cranked up the volume more, and she is usually telling instrumentalists to turn it down! I'm now a member of the TalkBass forum and I'm getting some good advice over there also. The whole bass thing is now seeming like a fun challenge rather than a daunting one. So thanks again.

Hi John, I think your approach is spot on. I'm not sure how intricate you want your lines to be but if you play the root on the "1" and the fifth on the "3" (aka playing in two) you will be outlining the chord well and everyone will know where they are in the tune.

For me the wildest thing about playing bass (after many years on the mandolin) is that the tuning is upside down so to speak (EADG instead of GDAE). I can't even ballpark the number of times I've wanted to play a "G" but, unfortunately for me, the 3rd fret on the top string is a Bb on the bass. Oops! haha! Have fun!

[Kenny]

Rudiments of accompanying folk, old time, bluegrass, gospel, et al. musical groups on bass:
K I S S
Get the chord progression
Play the root of the chord on the first beat (downbeat) of each measure
Alternate between root and fifth of the chord on the beats, playing the root on the downbeat; in 4/4 time play the root on beat 1, fifth on beat 2, root on 3, fifth on 4.
When the chord changes, play the root and fifth of the new chord
Continue this through the tune/song

Learning tip: Look at the root and fifth notes in the I - IV - V chords. e.g. In the key of G root-fifth in the I chord is G and D, the IV chord is C and G and the V chord is D and A. Notice that the G note is in both I and IV chords and D is in both I and V chords. C is one step from D and A is one step from G. You don’t need to move your fretting hand at all and still play many songs.

Advice I’ve gleaned from bass teachers who gig, too:
If you get lost, don’t stop. Retreat to playing the root on the beats. It may not be exciting but it’s not wrong and it fulfills the job the bass has. When you’ve mentally caught up you can resume alternating root-five. And if you never feel caught up, don’t sweat it! Keep playing that root note on the beat.

When playing root-fifth, the fifth can be either higher or lower than the root, whichever feels smoother to play.

When a tune has an intro, the bass doesn’t often have a role in that intro. As a novice, wait to play until the downbeat of the first measure of the verse. As you get experience you’ll find if and where the bass fits in on intros.
HTH

[gtani7]

lots of good advice here, I would add notreble lessons by Damien Erskine and others, lots of simple to challenging exercises https://www.notreble.com/lessons/ ... DE hasn't written lessons in a few years, so you'll have to way back in the archives for his.

https://www.notreble.com/buzz/2017/01/04/lesson-plans-for-the-new-year/

The simples exercises, playing quarter notes slow, 45 bpm, alternating index and middle, going for exactly even tone, spacing volume. Lot harder than it sounds... you have to file nails carefully. Finally I love my fretlesses, just bought a 3rd. Not an easy instrument, but beautiful sound thru JBL D140.

[dylandekk]

If you're open to a higher-tech approach, I am a big proponent of Rocksmith 2014 for learning bass. Unlike other music games, it is designed for you to plug in your real instrument with the included TS-to-USB cable. Not only can you learn a variety of songs, but the included instructional videos and GuitarCade (a bunch of skill-building games) are worth the cheap price of admission by itself (assuming you find a used copy with the cable). On top of that, it had a great auto-accompaniment mode where you can select various instruments for the backing band and it will follow along similar to an arranger keyboard. Depending on your technical skills, the PC version can also be easily modded to work with any audio interface and standard cable, so you can skip the proprietary cable entirely.

As a supplement to a few good bass books and YouTube lessons, it's a fantastic tool. On top of all that, it's a lot of fun and an endless source of challenges on the fly, which is an important part of practicing any instrument. I felt it was invaluable in my own bass playing personally. Still a lot of fun to just hop on and jam with.

Not a fan of the modern subscription-based version, avoid that at all costs.