What's the definition of "hand carved?"

[Nonprophet]

I know that "hand carved" tops, backs, necks, etc are kind of a benchmark for mandolin quality (and likely impact tone as well as aesthetics), but does "hand carved" mean no machines at all are used in making the hand carved pieces? Roughed out by machine, finished by hand? Nothing with a cord ever got within 10' of this piece? What are the criteria?

Thanks!


NP

[Scott Holt]

I am no luthier, however my understanding is that "hand carved" would entail both scenarios, as long as the final carving was done by hand.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Scott has it perfectly. Current builders may choose to hand carve the tops & backs completely,whilst some builders who can afford a router may choose to rough out the tops & backs & then hand finish them. The machining part is mainly a time saving procedure. I can't see it adding any pros.or cons. to the instrument,
Ivan

[Bertram Henze]

Not being a luthier either, I still have some production experience. As for the usage of machines, I suggest to distinguish

1 - the machine being used as a tool, attended and guided by a luthier who knows how to use it.
2 - the machine being part of an assembly line, employing untrained workers to remove broken items and to check the oil.

I would make an allowance for a #1 product to be called "hand carved" because it is the best result human skill can produce. No 19th century time journey needed for that.

#2 OTOH has the objective of saving costs and the product is the best result the machine's skill can produce under the circumstances - and the compromises neccessary to keep the process running.

[delsbrother]

"Hand carved" instruments are made by Master Luthiers using only select aged tonewoods.

[Rick Cadger]

"Hand carved" instruments are made by Master Luthiers using only select aged tonewoods.

Why do you say that?

Personally, I'd happily accept the description of "hand carved" for an instrument that has been finished by hand carving after being roughed by CNC etc, and where graduation has been done by hand.

Even amongst "master luthiers" using "select, aged tonewoods" there will be variation in what is done with machines and power tools and what is done with non-powered hand tools.

Those luthiers who don't ever use a router to prepare the binding channel, please raise your hand... Anyone?

Some distinctions can be fairly clear: solid woods/laminates; pressed top/carved top... Other things may involve more ambiguity. That's when we need to research a little more to find out how our instruments are made. Things like the Eastman factory tour photos are great for giving a bit of insight.

[delsbrother]

Why do you say that?

I wanted to use other terms that are over-hyped, can mean anything the speaker desires, and may or may not have anything to do with actual instrument quality.

[Bertram Henze]

I wanted to use other terms that are over-hyped, can mean anything the speaker desires, and may or may not have anything to do with actual instrument quality.

:cool: then I have understood it correctly. Was not sure. With a whistling smilie it would have been clearer, but then explained jokes are no longer funny.

[billkilpatrick]

i understood "hand carved" to mean the top has been hollowed out by hand - as opposed to pressed (bent) into shape or laying flat.

[Brent Hutto]

In other words, "hand carved" means it is better. So a lot of mandolins are "hand carved". Even ones that aren't exactly, you know, "carved" by someone's "hand"...

Oh, and here's a :whistling: for friend Bertram. And a :disbelief: for good measure!

[Bertram Henze]

Oh, and here's a :whistling: for friend Bertram.

Thanks Brent :))

I guess nobody expects a luthier to hand-carve the top in its strictest sense, i.e. with his fingernails. But apart from that, you better not believe blindly in quality wording that sounds good. If you know your luthier, I guess you know what he does.

The misuse of buzz language is everywhere in the world of products - try and buy a mechanical watch that is "swiss made", whatever that means. And don't get me started about restaurant menus... :crying:

[Brent Hutto]

I had lunch at my favorite on-campus sandwich place Wednesday. As usual, I had a sandwich and then a cup of their excellent coffee. When I was done, I went and asked the lady in charge "Do you think the Ethiopian coffee has a nutty aftertaste? Or has it maybe picked up something from one of the flavored coffees?". She said "I'd call it more 'earthy' than 'nutty' but maybe that's the same thing". Then she thought about it some more and said "More likely it picked up some of the Hazelnut flavor from the other beans though". Which was sort of my point exactly.

Funny thing is, I hate Hazelnut but thought that was one of the better cups of coffee I've had it quite a while. I almost hope the coffee was clean and I was just tasting "earthy" that I thought was "nutty". And no wise cracks about just who or what is "nutty".

[Bertram Henze]

Then she thought about it some more and said "More likely it picked up some of the Hazelnut flavor from the other beans though". Which was sort of my point exactly.

I am quite sure the coffee we get for free in the office has a faint but distinct urine note...
Must. Not. Deduct. Any. Further.

[Bertram Henze]

And no wise cracks about just who or what is "nutty".

....
PXLniuwXlrc

[Capt. E]

Many of the "inexpensive" asian made mandolins such as ones from Vietnam advertise as hand carved. That is probably true, but there are so many other things about the construction that are important, that these mandolins never come up to the level of a true quality hand-made mandolin. I would never buy a mandolin simply because it is advertised as hand-carved. It is meaningless and possibly very deceptive all by itself.

[sunburst]

[QUOTE=Rick Cadger;894707]Those luthiers who don't ever use a router to prepare the binding channel, please raise your hand... Anyone?QUOTE]

Well, I use a laminate trimmer (router) for guitar binding channels, but not mandolins.

The last time I carved tops and backs (4 of each, I think it was...) the arthritis in my right hand hurst so bad for so long afterward, that I became convinced that it is finally time to turn the rough carving over to a machine, so I'm working toward that (farming out the rough, machine carving). The remainder of the carving, I will continue to do by hand, and I will continue to select, process and joint my top and back plates. For me, it matters not whether people consider that "hand carved", I have to take care on my hands if I'm going to continue building, and the results will be the same regardless of what machines are used when along the way.

[Rick Schmidlin]

If you go to this thread:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?56158-Don-MacRostie-s-Red-Diamond-Mando-Shop&highlight=Diamond

Go to the picture of Bill Monroe and enlarge and you will the complicated diagram that provides an example of tuning.

[Spruce]

The machining part is mainly a time saving procedure.

The F5 mandolin--with all it's scrolls and quirks--wants to be built using CNCs....

And it's not only about saving time...

It's about producing a flawless instrument that really doesn't need a sunburst to hide stuff... ;)

It's about health and safety, as many carpel-tunnel addled luthiers will attest to...

Look at some of the "perfect" high-end F5s that have emerged in the past 10 years....
They are "perfect" and consistant because they are not "hand carved" (or bound).... ;)

[mandroid]

Seen the old duplicarver patterns from the Gibson's Kalamazoo moving sale,
there was router machine automation of the sort ,
there, back then.

[Ed Goist]

Here's the best definition I could find...
(Jason Harshbarger's work on Highland Strings # 047 Orpheus 2-Point mandolin :grin: )

68689 68690

68691 68692

68693 68694

[Toycona]

those are cool pictures.

[Don Raven]

Hand carved means the whole instrument was constructed with a Swiss Army Knife.