Are there too many Luther's?

[Rick Schmidlin]

Every time I turn around there is another name I haven't heard of. and I have to research so I don't feel dumb:confused:

[Brent Hutto]

You mean "Luther" like the television series on BBC America? There's just the one that I know of but you're right I can't recall the actor's name off the top of my head...

[Rick Schmidlin]

You see I am really back with all my spelling mistakes.


Luthier not Marty.

[Brent Hutto]

Oh yeah, I forgot about Marty!

[Dan Margolis]

Well, folks want to build mandolins, and if they market their work and someone wants to buy it, then no, I don't think so. Chances are some folks will just build a few instruments and then move on to other things, but if they want to build, who's to stop them? Worst case, the market will see some pretty nice hand made instruments from small builders. Matter of fact, it already does.

[resophil]

You see I am really back with all my spelling mistakes.


Luthier not Marty.

So..., if you went into that guitar factory in Nazareth, PA, and looked around until you found the absolutely, very best guitar builder in the whole place, would he be the Martin luthier king...?

[Brent Hutto]

...would he be the Martin luthier king...?

OK, I'll bow out. My weak attempts can't compete with a true Pun Master. You da man, resophil.

[Folkmusician.com]

would he be the Martin luthier king...?

That is a good one. :)

[Ed Goist]

No!

As someone relatively new to the mandolin, I think it's very exciting to see new builders like Girouard Mandolins (http://girouardmandolins.com/) and Shawnee Creek Woodworks (http://shawneecreekwoodworks.com/default.aspx) appear on the scene just as I'm getting interested in the instrument. I look forward to watching the growth and development of these and other new builders.

At least once a month I like to check the Cafe's Builders Page for the list of recent additions (http://www.mandolincafe.com/builders.html). It's heartening to see new names regularly appearing there.

Maybe we're in the midst of a "Luthiary Renaissance" in America!

Plus, let's face it, America needs to make more stuff.

[mrmando]

Somebody's got to keep Dremel in business!

[Mandobart]

No there are certainly not too many luthiers. My favorite instruments are handbuilt by two relatively unknown but very talented luthiers. (One resides in Minnesota, making him a Lutheran luthier :) ). I don't question the talent and skill of any of the well known builders found on this board and elsewhere. I wonder, however, if their $20,000 instruments truly play and sound 10 times better than the ones I own. I would like to see some posts featuring these lesser known, less expensive, but high quality builders.

[Ed Goist]

Mandobart, I'm betting the other luthier is Sonny Morris in Oregon. But who is the luthier in Minnesota?
BTW, the only reason I didn't mention Sonny is that he's not really 'new' (approaching build #200)! But I would say the quality and consistency of his work certainly speaks for itself...Although I will likely buy and sell many more mandolins in my life (I hope my wife isn't reading this), my beloved Morris A5 (Ole Night Train) will be with me for the rest of the trip!

[Mandobart]

Hi Ed. You are of course correct about Sonny Morris. Check out Tom Jessen at Cricketfiddle (http://www.cricketfiddle.com/). He's not new either. We have a small but dedicated social group (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?groupid=137).

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Hi Ed. You are of course correct about Sonny Morris. Check out Tom Jessen at Cricketfiddle (http://www.cricketfiddle.com/). He's not new either. We have a small but dedicated social group (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?groupid=137).

It's the first time I heard of Tom and just went to his website. Absolutely love his aesthetics, and the featured mandola on his site is something to behold. I also like that he makes his own cases. Very unique. Thanks for posting his info.

As to the OP question whether there are too many luthiers - Too many implies that the number of luthiers have grown to such an extent can no longer be sustained by the demand of the market. That, I think, is far from where we are at today. We are seeing a new crop of talented luthiers come into a market where for years there were only a couple of choices, almost all of them high-end. With all traditional music genres gaining popularity among novices and experienced players alike, we need more luthiers to cover the new players more (affordable) choices. One only needs to see how far back-ordered Kentuckys, Eastmans and other import mandolins to know the market is not at all saturated.

[Chris Biorkman]

Totally. Martin Luther, Luther Vandross, Martin Luther King, Lex Luther, etc. The list goes on and on.

[Jim Garber]

So..., if you went into that guitar factory in Nazareth, PA, and looked around until you found the absolutely, very best guitar builder in the whole place, would he be the Martin luthier king...?

I heard that that guy left the company to open a new business down the street selling quality dairy products called Cheese of Nazareth <rim shot>.

[MONami]

I was recently talking to a repair person about fixing my poorly made small-shop-built mandolin and she offered this: in the past year she has been deluged with repair jobs to correct original luthier defects in many small-shop mandolins. She was amazed at the number of new/small builders she was seeing, and at how many were not very well conceived or executed. I believed her because mine is one of them.

[Matt DeBlass]

Better an overabundance of luthiers than an overabundance of looters (although we could probably use more luters).
I think having more small craftsman hand-making useful and beautiful objects is the best thing that we could possibly wish for these days, especially since mass production and heavy manufacture are in decline.
Unfortunately, it's hard in this economy for most of us to afford the prices that a lot of these guys have to charge to make their own living.

[Jim MacDaniel]

:popcorn:

[Jim MacDaniel]

Are there too many Luther's?

I think the Catholic Church's position is that there was precisely one too many Luthers.

[Ed Goist]

I was recently talking to a repair person about fixing my poorly made small-shop-built mandolin and she offered this: in the past year she has been deluged with repair jobs to correct original luthier defects in many small-shop mandolins. She was amazed at the number of new/small builders she was seeing, and at how many were not very well conceived or executed. I believed her because mine is one of them.

I hope the repair tech was able to put things right with your mandolin, and that it's playing well for you now.

This, of course, is the risk. It's always difficult to judge the quality of something new when there is no track record to evaluate and few references to consult. Of course, over time, the cream will rise to the top, but when one has just started to churn, everything is all mixed together.

In a way, it's kinda like prospecting...You might find the next Nugget ;) , or you might just find a rock :(.

[250sc]

Too many for what? Yes, there are too many to fit into small row boat at one time.

Building is good for the builder because they can be creative and good for consumers because they have more choices.

[Matt DeBlass]

The worst of the bunch is Lex Luthier, the archenemy of Supermandolin.

[allenhopkins]

Answer to the basic question is "no," IMHO. But I'm sensitive to Rick's dilemma. Most of us know of individual and small-shop builders who have succeeded in "establishing" themselves, producing a significant number of instruments that have been played and reviewed. We may have heard one of their products played by an established artist, or even have played one ourselves at a dealer's, or in a jam somewhere. No need to attempt a roster of these better-known luthiers, and I'm sure I'd leave enough names out to generate a flurry of indignant follow-up posts.

But what about the new builder of whom you've never heard before? Look at all the threads asking for evaluations of more or less obscure brands of mandolin. In quite a few cases, they generate only a single response -- maybe a couple -- along the lines of, "I think I heard Fred Fastfingers play a Shmergel last year at Bluegrass Armageddon -- or maybe it wasn't."

It's one thing if we can try out one of the instruments -- but what if you're commissioning a "build" from someone who may have made half-a-dozen mandolins before, one of which attained stature enough to be remarked on, leading to additional orders? There have also been several threads going over problems Cafe posters have had with individual builders; I won't open a can of worms by naming names, but I think we all remember some of them.

Perhaps an "Angie's List" for luthiers could be in order -- with the caveat that what the list contains are opinions, and that one person's charmingly unique instrument, is another's badly-built mess. Might generate more problems than it solves, but aren't we sorta flying blind now?

[mandroid]

wiki P showed me the Martin Luther of the 95 thesis fame , banged up on that door,
and a Luther Martin who was in the gang of the declaration of independence, from George III.

[JeffD]

Unfortunately, it's hard in this economy for most of us to afford the prices that a lot of these guys have to charge to make their own living.

They can't charge more than someone is willing to pay. And they only need one buyer for each mandolin they make.

[Brent Hutto]

Well I only have the one mandolin and I know of more than one luthier. So I guess there's more of them than I need. Fortunately, the downside of there being "too many" luthiers is...well, I guess there's no down side.

[Jim DeSalvio]

In terms of too many builders, I can't really say. I am willing to take a chance on more established names, however. I have a Ken Ratcliff Econo A, a Jonathan Mann electric, and a Big Muddy, and am very happy with all of these. There are several other builders I would consider, like Austin Clark. I do go to the web sites of many other names mentioned here, to have a look at their work. For "factory" made instruments, Eastman has done me well, and for my level of playing, is more than I need.

[yankees1]

If a new luthier is good and can sell his/her instruments , he/she will stay in business. If not, he/she will find a new vocation.

[chip]

Yep, gotta agree with yankees1. Cream rises to the top. The market will dictate who makes it and who drops by the wayside or continues on as a little hobby. It was interesting to see the one post about the repairs on many of the newer luthiers instruments. That's precisely why proven names are still around, values have held and only get better with time. Quality over the newest "it" company....

[Brent Hutto]

Quality over the newest "it" company....

I thought we were talking individual builders, not companies or brands.

[yankees1]

I thought we were talking individual builders, not companies or brands. A group or just several luthiers can represent one company such as Northfield, Eastman, etc.

[Rick Schmidlin]

The reason I started this thread was I posted a few days back a trade ad here at the cafe, along with four other forums. I said what I was looking for in the trade for a great guitar and the builders I liked: Collings, Weber, Red Diamond, Prucha and a few others, all personal choice's. And I did get a perfect trade that fit my needs, so this is not a plug for my ad. What I did get was about twenty -five replys. Some that had builders I mentioned, others great builders I didn't. But what was interesting was about twenty builders
( mostly other forums) I never heard of and many I could not even a review or link to their work. I thought I was pretty luthier hip and found I was not.

[Brent Hutto]

A group or just several luthiers can represent one company such as Northfield, Eastman, etc.

I guess we're having a Humpty Dumpty moment. For me the word "luthier" is what I'd generally use to mean a specific builder who puts his name on each one-off instrument. Not factories like Northfield or Eastman (the word I use for those is "factory") or small shop manfucturers like Collings or Prucha (I'd use the phrase "small shop" for those).

What word would you use, if not "luthier" to distinguish between one-off instruments built by an individual working alone vs. a large building with anonymous workers producing many instruments, under a commerical brand name on a volume basis?

Rick,

Guitars or mandolins either one, there are way too many builders for one person to recognize every name in the business. Even the other luthiers probably only know maybe 1 in 20 of their fellow builders by name. So you just meant "too many for any one person to keep track of" rather than meaning "more than there ought to be". I agree with the former but don't think there really is an ought to be that applies in this case.

It's been my observation that mentioning "trade" brings all kinds of folks out of the woodwork. Up to and including someone who wants to trade you a bicycle or a used car for your instrument! Much less oddball mandolin makers nobody but their friends and family have ever heard of.

[strings777]

So..., if you went into that guitar factory in Nazareth, PA, and looked around until you found the absolutely, very best guitar builder in the whole place, would he be the Martin luthier king...?

:))

[chip]

I associate Mike Kemnitzer's Nugget as a company, Lynn Dudenbostel as a company, Steve Gilchrist as a company...etc. etc. If your making something and it's making you a living wouldn't you classify it as a small business/company? geez...
Nugget, Gilchrist, Dudenbostel, Kimble make quality stuff though they raise the bar for others. The more the merrier I say, those that don't meet the standards most likely will fall by the wayside.

[Rick Schmidlin]

Rick,

Guitars or mandolins either one, there are way too many builders for one person to recognize every name in the business. Even the other luthiers probably only know maybe 1 in 20 of their fellow builders by name. So you just meant "too many for any one person to keep track of" rather than meaning "more than there ought to be". I agree with the former but don't think there really is an ought to be that applies in this case.

It's been my observation that mentioning "trade" brings all kinds of folks out of the woodwork. Up to and including someone who wants to trade you a bicycle or a used car for your instrument! Much less oddball mandolin makers nobody but their friends and family have ever heard of.[/QUOTE]

I think it is I have been a pretty active reader here for about six years ( give or take a few months) and in that time so many builders have been discussed. I guess I was surprised how many were not.

[Bernie Daniel]

Too many luthiers? The answer is, eventually, no. There might be too many at this moment but in time some will stop building -- or start giving their instruments away.

And the question was also raised: Are the $20,000 instruments 10X better than $2,000 ones?

I think everyone agrees on that one.....

[billkilpatrick]

I heard that that guy left the company to open a new business down the street selling quality dairy products called Cheese of Nazareth <rim shot>.

snork ... splutter ... gak ... kaff-kaff ...

i don't know about there being "too many" mandolin luthiers but i have noticed - rash, totally subjective value assessment here - some designs of late which reflect a dissatisfaction - a reluctance, perhaps, on the part of some instrument makers to get it right.

[Brent Hutto]

chip,

I don't care how they file their income taxes. There is something distinct about an instrument in which one person's autonomy applied to every single aspect of its design and construction. And that person puts his/her name on it and identifies it as his own work. Whether he calls it "Dudenbostel" or "Nugget" or "The Hutto" doesn't matter. You know who conceived, designed, built and sold the instrument and it's a person.

The word "luthier", "company", etc. is totally arbitrary. But can't we agree on some term (I'd be OK if the term were "xyzzy") that means that thing as distinct from the other ways in which you can make a guitar or mandolin?

[Bernie Daniel]

chip,

I don't care how they file their income taxes. There is something distinct about an instrument in which one person's autonomy applied to every single aspect of its design and construction. And that person puts his/her name on it and identifies it as his own work. Whether he calls it "Dudenbostel" or "Nugget" or "The Hutto" doesn't matter. You know who conceived, designed, built and sold the instrument and it's a person.

The word "luthier", "company", etc. is totally arbitrary. But can't we agree on some term (I'd be OK if the term were "xyzzy") that means that thing as distinct from the other ways in which you can make a guitar or mandolin?

OTOH the staff who build mandolins for Gibson are luthiers I guess and the proof is many eventually go successfully out on their own, e.g., Triggs, Daley etc. But I do think that the OP was talking about the one-person operations.

Certainly it would vary, between "factories", as to how much of a particular instrument is the work of one person versus a team of builders? As well, just like a single builder crafts his ideas and philosophy in the wood of the mandolin as you note -- teams could collectively develop a build goal or philosophy too?

[Brent Hutto]

Bernie,

I'm sure it does vary depending on the operation. But that's pretty unknowable unless you're an insider. In the cases of Weber and Collings I'm pretty sure there's a single person ultimately responsible even if his hands did not actually carve any wood. There's a continuum from production lines to smaller (contract) workshops to Weber/Collings type operations. But then there's a clear dividing line between any of above and the Gail Hesters and John Hamletts who do the sole-builder thing.

I'm just referring to the very simple cases where it's one person and there's no need to look closer. I guess it was a mistake to thing the usual use of "luthier" covered that specific case. Maybe we really do have to say "A mandolin built as a one-off by a single indvidual working on his own and claiming sole credit for its design and construction". But something shorter sure would be nice.

[Ed Goist]

chip,

I don't care how they file their income taxes. There is something distinct about an instrument in which one person's autonomy applied to every single aspect of its design and construction. And that person puts his/her name on it and identifies it as his own work. Whether he calls it "Dudenbostel" or "Nugget" or "The Hutto" doesn't matter. You know who conceived, designed, built and sold the instrument and it's a person.

The word "luthier", "company", etc. is totally arbitrary. But can't we agree on some term (I'd be OK if the term were "xyzzy") that means that thing as distinct from the other ways in which you can make a guitar or mandolin?

Brent, I'd go with either Builder or Artisianal Luthier if one wanted to be more specific.

This is common and interesting differentiation in several disciplines (wine making and film making come to mind): The Artisanal or Propitiatory producer (one or a few people), as opposed to what is often called the "Studio" or "Factory" producer (composed of a team of individuals, usually with specific assigned tasks in the production process).

The strengths of the each, (almost regardless of what they are producing) are usually noted as:

Artisanal shoppe:
* Higher degree of individual personal, creative and artistic input into the end product.
* Superlative potential for high quality customer or user contact due to one-on-one accountability and relationship.
* Lower overhead and enhanced artistic freedom can promote innovation.

Studio shoppe:
* Disciplined factory style production maintains quality while increasing output.
* The well-defined division of labor maintains product consistency.
* Enhanced producer stability due to reduced dependency on any particular individuals being built into the business model.

There's no wrong choice here. Both systems can result in excellent product output.

Since I tend to place a high value on the individual artistic input that goes into a mandolin, and on having a single point of contact when it comes to issues with the instrument, I prefer working with small (1 or 2 person shoppe) artisianal luthiers.

[Rick Schmidlin]

OTOH the staff who build mandolins for Gibson are luthiers I guess and the proof is many eventually go successfully out on their own, e.g., Triggs, Daley etc.

and Bruce Weber

[woodwizard]

It might be this guy :) or this guy or this robot :confused: :)
Is this the Martin Luthier Kings bench maybe? :cool:

[woodwizard]

The simple answer would be ... no

[Fran]

We need to make more good quality instruments and over-sell the asian imports, the answer is definitely NO, we don't have enough!

[Bernie Daniel]

and Bruce Weber

yeah I knew I was forgetting a prime example -- Weber it was.

[Bernie Daniel]

We need to make more good quality instruments and over-sell the asian imports, the answer is definitely NO, we don't have enough!

I share your feelings Francois -- we need to actually start making things in North America again. The scary thing is how good the imports have become. I bought a used Eastman mandola via of an auction site and I think that the quality/price ratio of Eastman and some other import sellers (Kentucky, Loar et al.) is certainly high.

But I will never buy a new import because I won't willingly contribute to that "cause" -- I will be replacing the Eastman mandola with a custom-order Weber soon enough and I think that the more support we can give to the Kimbels, Clarks, and other fine luthiers the better. A friend of mine here in Cincinnati has a growing stable of Kimble mandolins and IMO supporting Gibson, Colllings, Weber et al., builders in our backyard, is also a great idea and has other benefits too. That's how I see it anyway.

[Charlieshafer]

I was recently talking to a repair person about fixing my poorly made small-shop-built mandolin and she offered this: in the past year she has been deluged with repair jobs to correct original luthier defects in many small-shop mandolins. She was amazed at the number of new/small builders she was seeing, and at how many were not very well conceived or executed. I believed her because mine is one of them.

I'd love to know specifically what the repairs she's been making to all these mandolins are, and who the builders are. Have there actually been enough new "small-shop" mandolins built and purchased over the past couple of years to consider one "deluged"? And what is "poorly conceived"? It's not like the specific structural elements of building mandolins hasn't already been established for about 85 years.

As far as I'm concerned, you can't have enough flavors of ice cream, and you can't have enough musical instrument builders of any type. I'm only upset over two things: the market simply isn't big enough for them all to succeed, and I'm too broke to afford all the ones I'd like to be able to buy.

[Bernie Daniel]

I was recently talking to a repair person about fixing my poorly made small-shop-built mandolin and she offered this: in the past year she has been deluged with repair jobs to correct original luthier defects in many small-shop mandolins. She was amazed at the number of new/small builders she was seeing, and at how many were not very well conceived or executed. I believed her because mine is one of them.

That quote caught my eye as well and frankly I am really surprised to hear it. For starters nearly every hand made mandolin I've seen has been pretty nicely done -- the main "flaws" or issues I've seen if any are with less than prefect binding or issues with the finish. I suppose it would be possible to miss a buzz from a fret up the neck before taking delivery.

Furthermore, it is certainly not easy to make a mandolin in your own shop and every independent luthier that I know has a great deal of pride in his/her work and are aware of how competitive the market is. They are well aware that it is a feat to get a customer to part with $2500 for a hand built mandolin when you can buy a good sounding import for $800. Their reputation is everything.

I also wonder what kind of defect would not be obvious at the time of purchase yet be major enough to require a professional repair? It might help to know what kind of a repair you had fixed. You are not taking about getting a set up are you? Just asking.

[sunburst]

I work on many hand made instruments with poor fret work, from really bad to just not quite there. Fretting takes some experience and study to get good at, and many people just aren't there yet.
Many adjustable truss rods are poorly installed and don't work, often there is no room for a wrench to get to the rod to even attempt to adjust it(!). Neck angles are often off, nuts poorly cut, tuners poorly installed, etc.. It is this sort of thing that the repair person was likely referring to.
...And no, I will not mention names, so no use asking.

[Brent Hutto]

I would imagine everyone in the mandolin-building business has built some early instrument with "issues" such as John mentions. The main difference is whether they start selling them to customer before or after learning to do better work.

[Willie Poole]

I feel that the majority of beginners buy a pac rim mandolin because they don`t want to throw their money away if they can`t master the thing, that being the case after he/she does learn to play they will be looking or a better quality mandolin and thats when they start looking at the many American made instruments, one thing is that they might find a very good mandolin made by an "unknown luthier" and after a few years that builder may not still be in business...So to keep that from happening they seek out a mandolin that is made by a well known builder even tho the price might be five times what an unknown would charge for one....The best way for a builder to get his product known is to set up a stand at festivals or at IBMA and other shows and get togethers and let people handle them and play them...I was lucky in one respect I ran into a cabint maker that said he wanted to try and build a mandolin so I showed him the plans for an F model that was said to be the dimensions of a 1923 Loar all I paid for was the wood and he built me a fine looking and sounding mandolin in 1981 and I still have it and play to this day but his name will never be famous because he only built about four mandolins...I did give him $250 for his time which he said he did most of the work at his employers shop so he got paid a salary by the government to build it...No, I won`t mention his name....

So, NO, WE DON`T HAVE TOO MANY LUTHIERS....It gives us a chance to look at many different instruments and keeps the "Big Boys" from hogging all of the business....I wish I could build...

Another question is...does a luthier have to be a builder or is a repairman also a luthier?

[sunburst]

The best way for a builder to get his product known is to set up a stand at festivals or at IBMA and other shows and get togethers and let people handle them and play them...

Not sure I agree with that, especially considering what it costs to set up at IBMA!!!!
I think the best way for a builder to get his/her product known is to be prolific, and be good. If a builder builds lots of instruments and they are all good (no "dogs"!) the reputation will follow.

[Brent Hutto]

And I would think if he is prolific and they are all "dogs"...that reputation will follow just as surely.

[Chip Booth]

I wonder if ... $20,000 instruments truly play and sound 10 times better than the ones I own. I would like to see some posts featuring these lesser known, less expensive, but high quality builders.

This is a bit of detour from the first page, but I have a few thoughts about that. I have played and owned a lot of mandolins, and try to keep an open mind about them all, from the inexpensive to the very expensive. I will be the first to say that price does not always reflect quality, but when it comers to the builders who are able to get 20K+ regularly for their instruments it's a pretty good bet that they are offering something special.

Do they sound 10 times better? That is unlikely, but in the world if instruments it seems that builders and factories routinely get you about 80% there these days for a decent price. That's a pretty good average, and it will certainly create a good reputation. Getting that extra 15% or 20% is the trick. The difference is subtle sometimes, and until you experience it you may not even know what to look for.

The first high end mandolin I had the chance to play was a Gilchrist. I was in a room full of Gibsons, Webers, Givens, Flatirons, other great instruments. I was incredibly excited to play the Gilchrist, and was shocked that when I first picked it up I couldn't immediately tell it was that much better than the others. It took about 15 minutes of playing it for something to click in, when I began to hear the instrument's nuances, the clarity, the evenness of tone all over the neck, the smooth midrange that cut right through the other instruments without sounding harsh. Once I put it down nothing else in the room sounded anywhere near as good. My ear had been trained to listen for new things, to experience playing the instrument in a different way. Subtle yes, so subtle the average listener might not ever hear it, but noticeable enough.

I have looked for those qualities in instruments of every make and price range. I found them in my Gilchrist, which was not a bargain, and my Lawrence Smart, which though not cheap was a relative bargain. And very occasionally I have found them in insturments that cost a lot less. I played about 20 Eastman mandolins at a festival once. The cheapest A in the whole bunch had it, got you about 85% of the way there for $500 bucks, I couldn't believe it was still sitting there for sale. Not another mandolin in the bunch approached it, regardless of price.

In my experience the guy who gets 5 to 10K for a mandolin is usually someone who can make a mandolin as good as the big boys, just not every time. Look long and hard enough and you may even find an inexpensive mandolin that gets you most of the way there. I don't have a list of builders to choose from that you can expect to get that quality level from for less. A lot of them can potentially do it, but don't expect it every time you play one of their instruments.

[JeffD]

Very well said Chip. I think you are right. I haven't played many of the high end instruments, and them not long enough to really feel and hear what is going on, but I have heard before exactly what you are saying.

[Willie Poole]

John, I know some builders of banjos and guitars that sell them out of their car trunks at festivals....I mentioned setting up a stand because I believe that more people will see that product then they would if you didn`t have a place to show them....I read on here almost every day about how good a certain mandolin is but I wouldn`t even think about buying one from an unknown builder if I couldn`t play it first, in fact I don`t believe I would purchase any instrument with playing it first, I never have up to this point in my life....don`t you think you could have sold more of what you made if you were to showcase them? I know some makers have certain shops that sell their mandolins and to me that is showcasing them because people can go there and play them....

[JeffD]

I feel that the majority of beginners buy a pac rim mandolin because they don`t want to throw their money away if they can`t master the thing, that being the case after he/she does learn to play they will be looking or a better quality mandolin and thats when they start looking at the many American made instruments,

I don't know. Judging from the newbie questions here on the site I think you are right. I think also that a beginner, even if feeling confident, doesn't yet know how important music will become in the scheme of things, and so cannot judge how much is appropriate to spend on it.

I disagree with you a bit on the second part. I think a player's second mandolin is based on the best they can justify. A player, though not a beginner, may still not have enough experience to hear and feel and appreciate the subtler advantages of the higher end mandolin. One might go for a mid-range instrument because it sounds as good or better than whatever else one has tried, and certainly better than what one started with.

I liken it to how I buy wine. I can tell the difference between a $5.00 bottle and a $30 bottle. But the difference between a $30.00 bottle and a $300.00 is lost on me, so I don't go for it. I am sure there is a difference, I just don't have the experience / training / interest to discern it.

The more you play the more demanding you become, and the more you would come to value smaller or subtler differences.

[sunburst]

...don`t you think you could have sold more of what you made if you were to showcase them?

I only build half dozen or so instruments a year, the rest of my time is spent doing repairs, and while I'm seeing the end of my "list" looming for the first time in a few years, I've sold everything I've made up to now, with the exception of a few instruments that I've made for myself. Nearly everything I've built for the last few years has been to fill an order, so no, I don't think I would have sold any more from setting up at shows... (though I might have taken more orders... if I had anything to display). In other words, I'd have to have built more to have sold more, but that's just me. Apparently, setting up at shows works for some people, but even so, they need to be prolific and good to be well known.
If I make it to the end of my list before I get more orders, I'll keep building, and perhaps then I'll put some in stores or see if I can afford to display at shows, it's a good way to meet people if nothing else! :)

[pjlama]

I think you need to include all manufacturers regardless of single builder or mass produced. That said I've seen more than a few turds floating in the pool so to answer the question; yes there are too many luthers.

[Charlieshafer]

I think you need to include all manufacturers regardless of single builder or mass produced. That said I've seen more than a few turds floating in the pool so to answer the question; yes there are too many luthers.

If it's only a question of quality, then you can say there are virtually too many of everything; cars, dishwashers, toasters, plumbers, accountants, lawyers, doctors, etc. There may be more than absolutely necessary to fill the demand, but it's the oversupply that gives the cream of the crop a space to rise to. Those that work to be the best either in terms of absolute best or on a best-for-cost basis need average instruments (or whatever) to compete against and set themselves apart from. If only one or two companies or professionals exist to fill a demand, quality suffers as they get lazy. Happens all the time throughout history. I'd rather have too may to chose from any day. It's up to the individual luthier/artist/performer/whatever to decide if there's enough money in it to warrant quitting their day job.

[journeybear]

Definitely. All I need is Luther Vandross. The rest pale in comparison.

Oh wait - you meant "Luthier" ... Oops! :redface: Oh wait - Tone Monster is back! Shoulda known. ;) Hey! Missed your spelling, I mean misspelling, I mean - oh never mind. :whistling: Welcome back!

So you have made the big move east, right? Weren't you in BC last we heard?

Anyway, there may indeed be too many luthiers, and not enough repairmen.

[Mandoviol]

Maybe we're in the midst of a "Luthiary Renaissance" in America!

Perhaps even an "Instrument Reformation?"

(Sorry, couldn't help it, what with the other "Luther" puns going on here...)

[pjlama]

If it's only a question of quality, then you can say there are virtually too many of everything; cars, dishwashers, toasters, plumbers, accountants, lawyers, doctors, etc. There may be more than absolutely necessary to fill the demand, but it's the oversupply that gives the cream of the crop a space to rise to. Those that work to be the best either in terms of absolute best or on a best-for-cost basis need average instruments (or whatever) to compete against and set themselves apart from. If only one or two companies or professionals exist to fill a demand, quality suffers as they get lazy. Happens all the time throughout history. I'd rather have too may to chose from any day. It's up to the individual luthier/artist/performer/whatever to decide if there's enough money in it to warrant quitting their day job.

Well put. So I guess it's safe to say that there are not too many luthiers although we could use a skimmer.

[sunburst]

...If only one or two companies or professionals exist to fill a demand, quality suffers as they get lazy. Happens all the time throughout history. I'd rather have too may to chose from any day. It's up to the individual luthier/artist/performer/whatever to decide if there's enough money in it to warrant quitting their day job.

No offense intended, but that sounds like a lesson from business school.
It may be true that some builders are in business to make money as a primary goal, and it may be true that some are artists, pure and simple, but I think most are crafts-people somewhere between those extremes, who were drawn to instruments making for various reasons with monetary gain way down the list. Many, if not most, of the better instrument builders have a passion for building and that is one of the main things that drives them. Our "competition" is not only other contemporary builders, but all who have gone before. Our work is constantly held up against that of Lloyd Loar (who perhaps never built an instrument), Stradivari, Torres, and the past work of all the great builders of history and more recent makers. The used market is strong, so each new mandolin is "competing" with used Gilchrist, Nugget, and Monteleone mandolins.
History also shows how passion can drive people even in the face of monetary ruin, Vincent VanGogh is a well known example. Examples of complacence among instrument manufacturers can be found in history, and that could easily happen again without the current competition in the market place, but the main goal of many hand builders is excellence rather than reaching the top of the market, so complacence, though it could happen, seems less likely among the few remaining luthiers who's passion made them stick with it in the face of whatever market forces narrowed the field.
This is not to say that there aren't plumbers, accountants, lawyers, doctors, etc. with a passion for what they do, but I think applying business school logic to luthiers is not the best fit for the principals involved.

[Charlieshafer]

I know what you're saying, but the business model of supply and demand does affect everything. That said, if I really believed in the business school model as a way of life, I'd never run a non-profit concert/workshop series and fiddle club which chews up about 6-7k of my own money each year. You make your own choices, and that's the beauty of the system we live in. If we took profitability as the only standard to hold up anything to do with music, the results would be disastrous. Forget just the fact that most of our most beautiful instruments would never have gotten made, a good 90% of the music that most of us here on the forum like wouldn't exist. We've had many bands that due to the label situation, produce their own cd's. They're good enough to easily get on Amazon, make it into the Barnes and Nobles, etc. Yet, in many cases, after 2-3 years, they still haven't sold enough to make back the costs. And these are albums that win awards! Have guys like Tim O'Brien as guest artists!

So, John and I are on the exact same page, we were just going at it at different angles. I was simply trying to say that if having a few less-than-adequate mandolins was the price for a great selection, I'm thrilled to pay it.

I will say I'm a little surprised that even less-than-upper tier luthiers would let a mandolin go out the door with poor fretwork. At least have the dignity and pride to practice on a few fretboards before you start to sell them. Heck, get the Stew-mac fret press and fret saw, buy a bunch of blank boards and practice for a few months. I will say that the business model holds true here; if you can't afford to invest in some practice time and materials, then maybe you really shouldn't be in business

[sunburst]

I will say I'm a little surprised that even less-than-upper tier luthiers would let a mandolin go out the door with poor fretwork. At least have the dignity and pride to practice on a few fretboards before you start to sell them. Heck, get the Stew-mac fret press and fret saw, buy a bunch of blank boards and practice for a few months. I will say that the business model holds true here; if you can't afford to invest in some practice time and materials, then maybe you really shouldn't be in business

Don't be surprised, fretting is difficult to learn because there can be so many variables. It takes time and effort to really get good at it, and many are doing the best they can and just haven't gained the knowledge to know that they are not up to the highest fretting standards. Practicing on "practice boards" isn't enough, neck woods are different and more or less unpredictable, being wood. Neck geometry changes with string tension, sometimes unpredictably, etc.. Until we've had to diagnose and remedy many fret/neck problems we don't know that the problem is even a possibility let along know how to deal with it or even recognize it. I don't get stumped by fret problems too often anymore, but it still happens once in a while, and probably will for as long as I do fret work. It just takes some years of that kind of experience to start to really understand frets and how to deal with them, and anyone who has built less than 10 instruments total just doesn't have that kind of fret experience. I've learned much more about frets from repair work than from building instruments. A few years of repair work will expose a luthier to more fret problems than many years of building, and if he/she takes the opportunity to learn from them he/she is on the way to good fret jobs.

[Charlieshafer]

Now I'm curious; will the grain orientation of the neck wood exert enough pressure to twist an ebony fretboard just enough to mess up the intonation or the height of the frets? I can see this happening with a really poor choice of woods, but can you still be surprised, even if you know what to look for? It is wood, and in cabinet/old house business we certainly get surprised from time to time, but I always figured the really well seasoned wood had at least a leg up. Interesting stuff, that wood, which is why the whole thing is so interesting.

[sunburst]

Well chosen neck wood minimizes problems, but doesn't eliminate them, good neck joints minimize problems but don't eliminate them, truss rods and steel or CF stiffeners minimize problems but don't eliminate them. In short, if you hear of some luthier's creation having neck/fret problems, don't write off said luthier as being incompetent. An ebony fret board is no match for an unruly piece of wood in a neck shaft with constant string tension!

[Rob Gerety]

I was once a bit of a victim of a poorly executed build. He was highly touted on the forums. Well respected so far as I could tell. But the guitars were poorly built. They had great tone but only because they were built so lightly. Nothing but trouble. So be careful. Sometimes the low prices are tempting - but keep in mind there are many very solid small shop produced guitars and mandolins these days and you have to wonder if they might make more sense than custom builds for most people.

[Charlieshafer]

Well chosen neck wood minimizes problems, but doesn't eliminate them, good neck joints minimize problems but don't eliminate them, truss rods and steel or CF stiffeners minimize problems but don't eliminate them. In short, if you hear of some luthier's creation having neck/fret problems, don't write off said luthier as being incompetent. An ebony fret board is no match for an unruly piece of wood in a neck shaft with constant string tension!

Interesting; I guess no matter how hard anyone tries, it all goes back to wood behaving like wood...

[JeffD]

It may be true that some builders are in business to make money as a primary goal, and it may be true that some are artists, pure and simple, but I think most are crafts-people somewhere between those extremes, who were drawn to instruments making for various reasons with monetary gain way down the list. Many, if not most, of the better instrument builders have a passion for building and that is one of the main things that drives them. .

That is an excellent point, and one that often gets lost in the rush to explain.

I wonder. Some on this thread have pointed to less than stellar builds as evidence that perhaps there are too many luthiers. Taking your point to heart, perhaps the perceived high price of high end instruments has encouraged builders into the market who are more monitarily driven, and don't have as much of the passion for excellence. Perhaps its not too many luthiers, but too many who aren't artisans first.

[Fran]

I share your feelings Francois -- we need to actually start making things in North America again. The scary thing is how good the imports have become. I bought a used Eastman mandola via of an auction site and I think that the quality/price ratio of Eastman and some other import sellers (Kentucky, Loar et al.) is certainly high.

Indeed, this tendency towards quality can be seen in many products coming from China, Korea and Indonesia. But will the prices remain low? Possibly, since large musical instruments manufacturers like Samick have decades of experience in using automated processes, and their quality-control seems to work well. It's all about money... Everybody would indeed like to buy a one-of-a-kind mando from a local maker, but their budget only allows them to spend a fraction of what these instruments sell for. The only consolation is that Asian manufacturers have helped getting more people into music by offering affordable instruments. I guess there is a market for luthiers in the repair and setup business, more than manufacturing.