om and mandolas

[John Bertotti]

I wish I could find where I read this but it stated that om's and mandolas are primarily rhythm instruments. I am thinking if thats the case what do us small hand people do. I can barely make some of the four finger chords on a mandolin no way could I make them on a mandola or longer scale. Do you all predominantly use three and two finger chords? I am thinking maybe on the five course I'm building that it would be a good idea to make two nuts and bridges one for the gdaea I got in my head that I want and a set for cgdae for future experimentation. Or is the piece I read wrong and are people using them for picking mostly? Thanks John

[steve V. johnson]

I find "rhythm" to be a sort of slippery term for these instruments... <G> I refer to my playing as 'part of the rhythm section because I don't play single-note, linear melodies, but I don't do full strummage (a la John Doyle, for instance) either.

I know very few people who strum them using all the courses at once, nor have I ever seen anyone play four-finger chords on one. In Irish music, at least, the sound of four-finger (or four-course) chords doesn't seem to fit, unless they are picked in arpeggios or cross-picked.

I use predominantly one-, two- and three-finger chords, but that's because I'm lazy. <GG>

I do know folks with small hands who play melodies, but usually on instruments with 23" and shorter scales. When folks try it on my 24+" Crump, it usually frustrates them.

I don't know if your article is wrong or not, certainly not without the context, but -I- find that they are well suited to a combination of partial strummage and partial picking. One of the nice things about them is the freedom to play the way you want, free of restrictive orthodoxies. .... But some might find that daunting... <ggg>

stv

[Adare_Steve]

In Irish music, at least, the sound of four-finger (or four-course) chords doesn't seem to fit, unless they are picked in arpeggios or cross-picked.
OK, well that's the Fylde smashed and chopped up into neat fire-lighting sticks! I'm tuckered out after all that exercise, so I'll wait until the morning, before burning the Freshwater!

Actually, nil desperandum (ol' buddy). My private and (even better) FREE lesson with Chris Smith (in my front room) last week, has given me the courage to play a lot more like it should be done. And, if I might say so - in the wonderful style of SliabhStv.

All I have to do now is remember what Chris told me, before his 'Celtic Backup' book arrives. Ah ha! Zan McLeod's Bouzouki video has very similar instruction in it!

The Freshwater is safe! Oh **** is that REALLY my Fylde in the fireplace??

Steve

[Martin Jonas]

John -- one of the things to consider is also that the effect of scale length cuts both ways: it means longer stretches in chord shapes that are several frets wide, but it also means more space on the fretboard in chord shapes that are crowded on the mandolin. As a result, even though the tuning is the same on OM and mandolin, the chords aren't necessarily. Some mando chords are physically impossible on OM (nobody in the world could play a G chop chord shape), but others become possible that you wouldn't be able to play on the mandolin. Swings and roundabouts.

Martin

[John Bertotti]

stv, steve, martin thanks I follow you I just don't know enough some times to figure these things out. So your replies are appreciated.
"The Freshwater is safe! Oh **** is that REALLY my Fylde in the fireplace??" Your killing me here Steve rotflh. John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Dolamon]

John - one of the things to remember on ANY long scaled instrument tuned in fifths is the number of chords which can be created within four frets. To really look into this, explore a good tenor banjo book or the only really good Mandola (http://tremolo.no/english/misc/chords/tenorchordd.htm) site I've run into. The chording isn't really an issue when you start to really understand how the voicings work across the strings. The trip is to understand where all the four notes would sound and then - play them either as arpeggios or as "moving chords" (weaving). I have a few beautiful sounding and playing instruments and find after a few years donking with them - the block chords will work - but it is so much more interesting to use voice / chord inversions.

A comment on John Doyle - I've sat with him more than a few times and while his left arm is moving like a sewing machine - the pick is often just pulling out one or two notes. Totally baffeling how he does that - it's much more than being a left handed player.

[John Bertotti]

Thanks Dolamon, it is apparent that I really need to hit the theory harder. How chords are formed has been explained to me but is still way over my head. Thanks for the link. I'm also patiently waiting for chord wizard to carbon their program for mac. You guys have set my mind at rest a bit, I was starting to worry that this may be a dead end goal (playing a mandola) only because of the reach for chords. Thanks again John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I went to the link but see the mandola there is tuned different than the one I'm assembling (g 44, d 32, a 22, e 12, a 10) are there any references for chords for this tuning that anyone knows? Thanks

[Jim M.]

If you want inspiration for CBOM's used for melody, check out Roger Landes, Gerald Trimble, and Joseph Sobol. They each have CDs using CBOM as the primary melody instrument. Dan Beimborn, Kevin MacCleod, and Dagger Gordon (who all post on this board) also have great CDs with some tracks using a long-neck as the melody instrument. I'm primarily a fiddle player so I'm used to playing melody, and that's what I mostly do with my 'zouk.

[Adare_Steve]

I should have mentioned, earlier, that while most players will do as SliabhSteve suggests and play with a combination picking and strumming, there is one 'tutor' that only covers four-course strumming.

Gerry McKee's 'Boukzouki CD ROM Tutorial' in the Mad For Trad CD ROM tutor series, ONLY covers 4 course strumming techniques.

It's how I got started, and I stuck with it, because I found it simpler than the picking 'while moving around the fretboard' style that more interesting players utilise.

I'm now trying to unlearn some of these techniques and develop a cross between the two styles (picking strumming). But, I do think strumming has it's place (especially with a fast reel - where my 4/4 picking technique is currently 5 times too slow to keep up with even slower box players!

Steve

[otterly2k]

I think one of the really cool things about playing in this family of instruments is that there are fewer clear standards about how to play... the field is wide open for experimentation, and each player sounds different based on the combination of her/his instrument, technique, ear, hands, etc.

I turned to the large mandos because I wanted to play melody and rhythm (not just chop chords)... I am just getting my feet under me in this dept. With my Trillium (22.5" scale), some of melodies are too much of a stretch for me, so I look for counter melodies, harmonies, alternate fingerings, etc. Or I look for a more simplified way to play the melody. Or I skip a note and let it be implied or covered by another player. I do have small hands, and sometimes that means I have to move quickly up and down the neck. I may ultimately go to a shorter scale.

In terms of rhythm, I'd echo much of what has been said above. We have been over-trained to think of rhythm in simplistic terms-- boom, CHICK, boom, CHICK. For some forms of music, this is fine. But so much of what we play on mando family instruments has so much more going on rhythmically that there are many more options.

Rhythm playing is not the same as playing chords, necessarily. A good drone, played with strategic accents, can provide excellent rhythmic backup- for instance. Some understanding of polyrhythms can be very helpful in terms of figuring out how to place single notes or 2-note chords in ways that support or augment the rhythm of a piece.

And, of course, the "weaving" or crosspicking techniques are well worth learning...
KE

[Shana Aisenberg]

I play both melody and backup on a Trillium 22.5 inch scale OM tuned GDAD. Four finger chords ala G chop chord aren't ever used. I save those for mandolin http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
When playing back up I play counter melodies, drones and lots of two or three string chords.

Seth

[steve V. johnson]

Dion sez: " one of the things to remember on ANY long scaled instrument tuned in fifths is the number of chords which can be created within four frets. To really look into this, explore a good tenor banjo book or the only really good Mandola site I've run into. The chording isn't really an issue when you start to really understand how the voicings work across the strings. The trip is to understand where all the four notes would sound and then - play them either as arpeggios or as "moving chords" (weaving). I have a few beautiful sounding and playing instruments and find after a few years donking with them - the block chords will work - but it is so much more interesting to use voice / chord inversions. "

Wonderful, fantastic! That is really right and well said, thank you!! (Hey, the lights just went on! <GGG>)

Yeah, Doyle does that, I've been near him when he did it too. Astounding. Since I don't want to play that style (everyone else seems to want to... <GG>), it's ok that I just plain -can't-!! LOL!!

Thanks,

stv

[steve V. johnson]

Hey Otter! Nice to see you de-lurk here again! I hope all is wonderful with that Tril', still! And with the a capella stuff too!
Happy Halloween!

stv

[steve V. johnson]

Adaring Steve has been playing fast and loose with his compliments, so I must say thanks very much! I'm very flattened.

stv

[John Bertotti]

Any of you guys have a video, Dan Beimborn, Kevin MacCleod, and Dagger Gordon, or does anyone know of a good video showing some of these techniques mentioned above? Thanks John

[halfdeadhippie]

"I know very few people who strum them using all the courses at once, nor have I ever seen anyone play four-finger chords on one. In Irish music, at least, the sound of four-finger (or four-course) chords doesn't seem to fit, unless they are picked in arpeggios or cross-picked."

Folks - we really have to try a new perspective here -
to hit a target , to reach a destiny you must have aim
aim is essential
so aim in this case is the production of a particular sound or a passage or even an entire tune on an OM or other CBOM
so once you have your aim - start simply
express your desire simply, positivley,
let your fingers find where they belong, go slow, find one tone at a time, find the tone and play it clearly
play it with your eys closed, sitting down standing up, walking,play it in the morning ,play it at night
work at it until it hurts
rest
and then begin again

When I play OM or mandocello, I do not approach ( take aim) the same way I do on the mandolin
to me they are completely different instrumnets
how I play a tune on a mandolin, is not necessarily the same as I would on a OM or Mandocello, the interpretations of say Irish or other fiddle tunes is quite unique in all aspects - fingering right hand, chording, rythmn , dynamics, tone, perhaps not drastically different , but unique enough to be two (or more) animals.

I always suggest fiddle tunes or (that real old time German fiddler) Bach when trying to explore an instrument - both offer the opportunity to discover the possibilites in the instument, the tune, and yourself,
so pick a fiddle tune, or a bach sonata, and just play the heck out of it, try different fingerings, expressions, rythmns.

The only essential requirment is commitment.

my apologies for any mispellings

Tim

and no offense to the person who made the quoted statement at the top, but I could not disagree more.

[Martin Jonas]

Any of you guys have a video, Dan Beimborn, Kevin MacCleod, and Dagger Gordon, or does anyone know of a good video showing some of these techniques mentioned above?
I see from the Elderly (http://www.elderly.com/videos/cat_or_pgc_page?page=1&query_start=1&step=20&cat_or_pgc=925&special_links=links_instruments&sort_on=cat_or_pgc,artist,title) web site that they have a number of mandola, OM and bouzouki DVDs (including one by Tim O'Brien), but I haven't seen any of them, so I can't say how good they are.

There's a fair bit of Donal Lunny's bouzouki playing on two recent DVDs, which are well worth it in any case: Planxty's "Live 2004" and "Christy Moore Uncovered". They are music DVDs, not instructional ones, and so there are frustratingly few close-ups of Donal's hands (or of Andy Irvine's for that matter). Still, it gives you a much better idea than listening to the albums of who is doing what and how to achieve that unique Planxty sound. In one of the bonuses on the Planxty DVD, Donal talks you through one of the arrangements and demonstrates how the bouzouki part fits in. Great DVD, and fairly affordable too.

Martin

[Adare_Steve]

Adaring Steve has been playing fast and loose with his compliments, so I must say thanks very much! I'm very flattened.

stv
Flattened once, or flattened-fifth? Try that for a moving chord!

Steve

[mandolman]

I like this vidéo but don't understand what he does....

http://www.folkofthewood.com/page2587.htm

[John Bertotti]

mandolman, I checked out that clip. It sure looks like he is playing with finger picks doesn't it. I think I see a thumb pick and it sure looks like he his using three of his fingers. Is this common? I was under the impression that finger picks weren't the way to go. John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[jmcgann]

http://www.johnmcgann.com/om.html

Mandola and Octave Mando are exactly like mandolin or guitar- perfect for melody AND rhythm! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[nontroppo]

Thanks Dolamon, it is apparent that I really need to hit the theory harder. How chords are formed has been explained to me but is still way over my head. Thanks for the link. I'm also patiently waiting for chord wizard to carbon their program for mac.

Hope I'm not repeating something everyone here already knows...

If you happen to own a Palm Pilot or similar PDA, there is a wonderful utility called FretBoard, first developed by Dave MacLeod, that gives you notes, chords, and scales in tablature for standard mandolin tuning (GDae) as well as twelve (count 'em, twelve) other tunings for bouzoukis and citterns. #The program has been generously donated to the open-source community and can be found at:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/fretboard/

I've gotten a lot of good mileage out of this utility as well as the PDA metronome.

[craigtoo]

Adare_steve!
Not remember what Chris "Mr. Intensity" Smith said? ... can't believe it...

Home .... Away..... home.... Away....

heh..

He's written a great book. One that I keep coming back to as I learn more...

I'm still a melody guy tho... My backup... is well.. backing up myself while I play melody ...with lower drones...a technique stolen shamelessly from Dan B.


craig