truss rods on mando's

[44moose]

at what price level do mando's have truss rods? and is it essential? any rec's for good mando under a $1000 american made with truss rod?

[Tim2723]

Not all do, and I'm not sure it's strictly related to price. Some brand new sub-$200 mandolins have truss rods. I have an old bowl-back worth around $100 that has none because it doesn't need it. My $1800 Ovation doesn't have one either, but that's a function of its design and the rod is replaced by a different technology. I have three sub-$1000 instruments that all have them. I don't think American Made has anything to do with it either.

[Ray(T)]

... neither to teens and pre-teens Gibson Mandolins have them. You may also like to consider whether they are adjustable or dual acting. Not sure about mandolins but Martin guitars didn't introduce adjustment to their truss rods until the 19080s.

[mandroid]

Own 2 Gibby A's 21~22, the A4 got the T rod. May have been the early years,
T rod cover proclaimed it's addition,
it's nickel plated like the tailpiece cover.

Modern builders have ability to use new materials, the strips of carbon fiber composite
in necks resist the string tensions nicely.
and like pre trussrod F4s, allow more room on the headstock for the builder
to show off their inlaying skills.

[Ed Goist]

I believe all modern mandolins, regardless of price point, utilize some type of neck reinforcement technology. I also believe that the type of neck reinforcement technology used for a particular mandolin is determined by design/builder specs and not by price point.

Some builders prefer the more common, adjustable truss rod, while others prefer a permanent in-neck mounted stiffener (often made of carbon fiber as Mandroid points out, but also sometimes made of steel and just called a non-adjustable truss rod).

There may still be some modern taterbug or bowlback mandolins made with no neck reinforcement and requiring ultra-lite, low tension strings...I'm not sure about this...other will know for sure.

Also, I think all mandolins made before about 1920 did not have the reinforcement technology, and had to therefore be built with sturdy necks capable of withstanding the string tension...Hence the 'railroad tie' or 'baseball bat' like neck profiles on these mandolins.

In terms of domestic made mandos under $1k, the ones I know about, and the type of reinforcement they use include:
Big Muddy: non-adjustable steel truss rod.
Breedlove American Series: adjustable truss rod.
Bruhn Mandolins: adjustable truss rod.
Howard Morris Mandolins: Non-adjustable stiffener.
Shawnee Creek Woodworks: adjustable truss rod.

Also, I have found that some of the domestic builders will recommend a specific type of neck reinforcement, but if the customer has a preference, they will use whatever form of reinforcement the customer desires.

[JEStanek]

My Labraid is a sandwich of walnut and ebony. No rod or CF in it.

Jamie

[Ed Goist]

Jamie, are there recommended string tension maximums for your Labraid?
Is that the mandolin with the violin peghead? What a beauty!

[JEStanek]

No maximums recommended. When were were building I told Brian I don't use very heavy strings He built the top for that more than the neck. Brian put GHS silk and steel on there. I have JM11s. It's a short necked mandolin so there's not much to move there anyway. Brian also felt the laminated neck was stronger than a single piece of wood because of how the grain is aligned against each other. Look at how many old Gibson oval holed mandolins are still going strong. The truss rod isn't a must have. It's a nice to have even then you may never adjust it. Some builders fell having the channel there almost contributes to needing to use the truss rod. I wouldn't know. I have a 100+ year old bowlback with no rod either, again, short necked. I think the added mass they provide in instruments (e.g., F5s) does impact the sound. I remember many discussions about the pros and cons of them in the builder section where good builders chimed in.

Jamie

Jamie

[Bill Snyder]

I believe all modern mandolins, regardless of price point, utilize some type of neck reinforcement technology.

I don't believe this is the case, at least not with some of the inexpensive imports. No truss rod, steel rod, cf. Just a solid piece of maple or mahogany.

[Ed Goist]

Wow. Sorry I was so wrong on this.
I was going by my personal experience, having not personally seen nor heard of a modern mandolin without some form of neck reinforcer.
Interestingly, Jamie and Bill have corrected me by sighting both high-end and low-end exceptions.
Sorry again for the bad info.

[allenhopkins]

...Sorry I was so wrong on this...Sorry again for the bad info.

No apologies needed. The overwhelming majority of mandolins discussed here do have either adjustable truss rods, or some form of neck reinforcement. Bowl-backs, as a rule, didn't -- partially because many were made before the truss rod became widespread, probably around WWI, and partially because they were made for use with lighter strings, and thus there was less tension on the neck and less chance of deformation.

Martin mandolins never had truss rods, or neck reinforcements, even after Martin started putting non-adjustable steel "t-bars" in the necks of steel-string guitars (about 1934). My old Strad-O-Lin, which is probably '40's or '50's, has no neck reinforcement; neither did my Regal Octofone, until I had one retrofitted. Neither of my resonator mandolins, the National Triolian and the Dobro, has one; they're '30's-'40's vintage.

Nowadays, almost any mandolin, US-made or imported -- other than bowl-backs, or the most inexpensive "mandolin-shaped objects" -- will have some form of neck reinforcement. Is it "essential"? Probably not, if the wood in the neck is properly seasoned and proportioned, and if only medium-tension or lighter strings are used. But it's a good thing to have; the ability to adjust the "relief" in the neck, to compensate for changes caused by varying humidity, or by the pull of strings over the years, can be very useful.

[Brent Hutto]

at what price level do mando's have truss rods?

I consider an adjustable truss rod essential kit for any guitar or mandolin, other than a nylon-string guitar. And I would have a strong preference for one in a nylon-string guitar.

Without an adjustable truss rod all you know for sure is that you like the way it plays on the day you buy it. If the action and/or neck relief changes at some point after that, you may need a truss rod adjustment to make it play as you like. Why would I want to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on an instrument that may well be uncomfortable to play in the future just so the builder can prove some abstract point about truss rods being unnecessary?

[Ed Goist]

I consider an adjustable truss rod essential kit for any guitar or mandolin, other than a nylon-string guitar. And I would have a strong preference for one in a nylon-string guitar.

Without an adjustable truss rod all you know for sure is that you like the way it plays on the day you buy it. If the action and/or neck relief changes at some point after that, you may need a truss rod adjustment to make it play as you like. Why would I want to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on an instrument that may well be uncomfortable to play in the future just so the builder can prove some abstract point about truss rods being unnecessary?

Hi Brent:

I don't have a horse in this race (though I do think it's a really interesting topic), but here are the three main reasons I've gotten from a few high-end ($2K+ for an A-style) builders as to why they prefer to use a permanent stiffener (almost always 1/2" by 1/4" carbon fiber) as opposed to an adjustable truss rod:

* The carbon fiber rod stiffens the neck considerably more than does a truss rod. As a result, a mandolin with a stiffener will never need to be adjusted, while a mandolin with a truss rod WILL CERTAINLY need to be adjusted at some point during the mandolin's life (and usually more that once).

* Traditional adjustable truss rods are prone to expansion, contraction and other forms of warp due to environmental and other factors. As a result, an adjustable truss rod is effectively 'adjusting' all of the time on it's own. This can result in minor (and sometimes not so minor) neck issues with the mandolin at various times.

*A carbon fiber rod stiffener is lighter than a truss rod, by a lot. With a high quality mandolin, lighter is always better. Anything that adds unnecessary mass to the instrument is likely to adversely affect soundboard movement and response.

Most of the builders in the 'permanent stiffener' camp strongly recommend that with their mandolins, but they will still use an adjustable truss rod at no additional cost for customers who prefer to have the adjustability.

Interesting stuff...I'm on the fence...However, once I pick a builder, I tend to defer to their judgment on things like this.

I am hoping, however, that builders who frequent this forum will chime in.

[Brent Hutto]

I guess in the end I don't trust a builder to know what amount of neck relief suits me now and into the future. I certainly do have to tweak it slightly every few months and maybe it's possible to build one so stiff that it never moves a single thousandth of an inch in the lifetime of the instrument (not sure I buy that for anything made of wood, though). But there's still the possibility that I might want/need/prefer a different setting for reasons related to my playing style or technique.

And there's a lot that can change on a mandolin that has nothing to do with the neck shape but still leads to a truss-rod adjustment. The rest of the instrument affects the neck angle and if an eighth-turn of a truss-rod nut avoids needing major surgery somewhere else that's like money in the bank. To me it's just a needless constraint. There are too many possibilities down the road that might be limited by choosing not to install a truss rod. And it's totally a choice, I can't imagine any kind of mandolin that just fundamentally can't have an adjustable rod in it.

Ed and I have encountered similar philosophical disagreements in other discussions based on our differing ways of approaching mandolin purchases. I think Ed can quite comfortably be sufficiently impressed by a builder to go along with something that in the abstract he might want done differently. Like having a truss rod. I'm much more about the instrument than the builder. I mean Mike Black is a great guy and could not have been more enjoyable to deal with. But if his instruments didn't have this or that feature that I consider important I wouldn't have lost any sleep over passing up his mandolin and sticking to the ones that met my shopping list. And an adjustable truss rod is pretty high up on that list.

[Ed Goist]

Brent, I think you're absolutely right. I tend to buy the builder and not the mandolin.
This is one reason why working with individuals and small shops is so important to me. It is also why I fret so much over my final buying decision, and why I feel awful about the 'finalists' I haven't chosen to build for me...I'm weird...I know.
I think this is an interesting difference in buying philosophies.
I also think that your approach is much more practical and sensible, while mine is much more personal and romantic...
And I'm fine with that.

[Brent Hutto]

Ed,

Your approach, as we've discussed before, perhaps works well for someone who might very well enjoy ending up with 6, 8, 10 mandolins over a period of years. Mine perhaps is more suited to someone who happily makes do with one or at the very most two instruments over the same period.

[Ed Goist]

Brent, truth be told, your approach is probably better for just about everyone.
You are looking at the mandolin as a tool for making music, while I am looking at it as a work of art, and an extension of a craftsman, which also happens to make music.
In a very real way we are buying completely different things...Again, interesting.

[Avi Ziv]

In my early days of mandolin playing, I left the sweetest sounding Old Wave non-truss-rod mandolin on the wall at Mandolin Bros and walked away ONLY because it lacked that feature.

I have always regretted that decision.

[bblaedorn]

I was playing a Michael Kelly Legacy FSE. I enjoyed the tone but fully acknowledge I have far less than a sophisticated ear. The action was a little high. I set it up myself, though. The bridge was in the correct place and as low as it would go without fretting out. I did not want to pay someone to adjust the nut. In hindsight I probably should have. I enjoyed the instrument for about 3 years but have moved on from it. I do not necessary have my heart set on an F. I was just looking for general feedback for the best in my general price range. So far the thread has been helpful. I still have my old $200 Washburn which I will play until I make my decision. I am in no rush. All posts are appreciated and have helped provide different directions to pursue. One hang up I have had is simply geography. I live in Fargo ND, 100,000 people, there is a limited amount of instruments I can physically play.

Thanks again guys and gals,

Ben