Lloyd Loar F5 Wood Selection?

[Ed Goist]

What specific species of Spruce and Maple were used to make the Gibson Lloyd Loar F5 mandolins of the 1920s?
All of the references I can find just say 'spruce' and 'maple'.
Also, what woods were used to make the fretboards and bridges/saddles on these mandolins?
Thanks much.

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

The original spec sheet calls for them to be "Made of the very best Adirondack or W. Virginia Sruce". No doubts there. The maple is just spec'd as "Made of the very best Curly Maple well matched". But since Gibson was in Michigan, it's pretty well agreed that they used sugar maple.
Lynn

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

Oh yes... fretboards, bridges and saddles were ebony.

[sunburst]

There are those who argue in favor of red maple rather than sugar maple, I suspect they just bought 'maple' and that meant both red and sugar maple, possibly even with something else (black maple?) mixed in once in a while. I don't think anybody knows for sure.

[Ed Goist]

Thank you Lynn. Very interesting, and not as all surprising to me.

Here's why I asked...

I recently decided to identify a handful of players/mandolins whose sound is most appealing to me. I thought that this would be a helpful list to have for any future mandolins I might have built. I could say to the builder, "I'd love to have a mandolin that sounds like these". After several wonderful hours of critical listening, and some very difficult narrowing down, here is the list I came up with:

Tim O'Brien on his Nugget A5:
My research seems to indicate that this is either Red or Engelmann Spruce (it seems that Mike Kemnitzer thinks it's red spruce, but apparently it may be engelmann, he's not absolutely sure), maple back/sides, tone bar bracing, varnish finish

Jody Stecher on his Miller A5:
Red Spruce, Sugar Maple back/sides, tone bar bracing, traditional shading with natural resin varnish.

Andy Statman on his Kimble F5:
Red Spruce, Sugar Maple back/sides, tone bar bracing, oil varnish with French polish.

Rebecca Lovell on her Duff F5:
Red Spruce, Eastern Hard Maple, tone bar bracing, French polished spirit varnish.

After researching the specs on my selected group of mandolins, I thought it was pretty cool that they had so much in common:
all F-hole, all (?) Red Spruce (aka Adirondack Spruce [Picea rubens]), most (all?) Sugar maple back/sides, all tone bar bracing, and all varnish finish.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know for sure what species of woods were used to make Tim O's Nugget? Also, can anyone confirm that the "Eastern Hard Maple" used by Paul Duff to make Rebecca Lovell's F5 is Sugar Maple (Acer saccharum)?

Man, this was a fun and enlightening little project!

[Mike Black]

Also, can anyone confirm that the "Eastern Hard Maple" used by Paul Duff to make Rebecca Lovell's F5 is Sugar Maple (Acer saccharum)?

I can't say specifically, but Sugar Maple is also known as hard or rock maple. And is usually found in the north east.

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

John... I suspect you are right. I'd be surprised if all of the maple was sugar maple. I tend to get more of a Loar type sound with red maple.

Ed.. don't get too carried away with the woods each player has in their mandolins. That particular combination from the builder you choose may not yield an instrument with the sound you want any more than a Chris Thile pick will make you sound like Chris. Far better to talk to your builder, tell them the sound you want, and let them choose materials based on their experience that will yield the sound you are looking for.

[evanreilly]

I have had excellent success letting luthiers decide as Lynn suggests.
I have three examples of artistry by individual luthiers (two Phoenix and one Dudenbostel). All are primo examples of letting the artist use their experience to reach your semi-idealized sound, with their best judgment on the materials they have. Ain't none of them shabby at all to play or look at, or listen to! Thanks Rolfe & Lynn!!!

[Ed Goist]

Lynn, thanks for the excellent advice.
I went into this project just considering the tone of various mandolins, and researched the build specifications of the mandolins as kind of an afterthought...That's one of the reason I think the similarities are so neat.
That said, I am all about empowering the builder.
My plan still is to provide the builder with the player list and some song examples, and to let them take it from there.
Thanks again.

[JEStanek]

Lynn's advice is perfect, as you would expect from such a respected and sought after builder. I suspect that two builders using the same woods will get some variation in sound based on their body shapes, f hole size, plate thickness/recurve diminsions, and finishing material/technique. I think the really good builders can get you a sound you like if you describe it well to them. Don't get too caught up in the tech sheet. Rather, focus on the sound as you partner with your builder. At least that has been the recipe for the sucess I've had with my two builders.

I also think these builders are similar to master chefs. They can make a great tasting soup from the same ingredients but each will have their own nuances and stamp on the final flavor/tone.

Jamie

[Big Joe]

There can be a sonic difference in the types of wood you use for sure, but as Lynn pointed out, each builder has their own ways to build that make as much difference to the tone and the woods themselves. There are so many elements that go to final tone that just chosing a particular material is no guarantee of success. All things being equal, a particular builder will have a different output by changing woods but the wood itself is only part of the equation.

I personally have a love for sugar, hard rock, or eastern or what ever name you wish to apply to that group of Maples, and I love Adirondak (red spruce). That combination makes a great mandolin and I like red spruce very much on guitars tops as well. That combination can have its own peculiarities that some don't like, but for those who do it is pretty hard to beat. However, that is only part of the total equation. As others have pointed out, if you know what you want and you communicate clearly with your builder you have a pretty good chance of getting the end result you want. If your builder does not understand clearly what you want and expect you have a much less chance of getting what you want. The first thing is for you to know what you want, then how to explain what you want, and then to have a builder who is confident they can deliver that. Good luck on the journey.

[Ed Goist]

...snip...
I also think these builders are similar to master chefs. They can make a great tasting soup from the same ingredients but each will have their own nuances and stamp on the final flavor/tone.
Jamie

Jamie, excellent analogy.

[Glassweb]

In the rarely seen Gibson pamphlet "Lloyd Loar talks about tone" I seem to recall Gibson mentioning something about "only the finest Norweigen spruce" or something like that was used for the master model (Loar signed) f5s. I guess there was no truth to that advertising...

[HoGo]

In the rarely seen Gibson pamphlet "Lloyd Loar talks about tone" I seem to recall Gibson mentioning something about "only the finest Norweigen spruce" or something like that was used for the master model (Loar signed) f5s. I guess there was no truth to that advertising...

That is true. The specs sheet tells only origin of the spruce, not species. The red and european (often called Norway) spruces are hard to tell apart even seeing standing trees, I recall the cones are the clue, so perhaps their supplier thought it's the same species, back then the woodcutters (producing lumber) probably didn't need to tell all the spruce species apart like we do.
BTW, the other spruce for lesser models in specs sheets is Oregon spruce, perhaps Sitka...

[John Kinn]

So that's where the great sound of the LL mandolins comes from: Norway!;)

[Dan Margolis]

Yeah. I believe that you can overthink these things.

[Steve-o]

That is true. The specs sheet tells only origin of the spruce, not species. The red and european (often called Norway) spruces are hard to tell apart even seeing standing trees, I recall the cones are the clue, so perhaps their supplier thought it's the same species, back then the woodcutters (producing lumber) probably didn't need to tell all the spruce species apart like we do.

Having a forestry degree, I can tell you that red and Norway spruce are easy to distinguish in the field. Norway spruce has the distinctive pendulous branches.

67205

[sunburst]

Steve, I was once in a stand of spruce at the top of a SW Virginia mountain doing field research with Drs Adams and Stevenson, and we found some long cones on the ground. Seems that someone had planted some European spruce among the red spruce there many years before. We hadn't noticed the difference in the trees until we saw the cones, and it was difficult to tell the difference other than the cones even after we realized what the situation was.
When I see a "Norway" spruce ornamental tree in a lawn or other open area, it looks much different from a red spruce, but those particular euro and red spruce trees on that particular mountain sure looked a lot alike.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I believe this puts a twist on things

[Spruce]

I believe this puts a twist on things

Yeah, that sheet was my desktop for many-a-month, and it really reinforces how little we know about the wood used in those instruments...
Gibson too, for that matter. Then and now.

"Oregon" could be either Sitka or Engelmann, by the way, but I'm betting on the former....

And try sending a maker these days wood that is 45 degrees off quarter....
Then duck. ;)

Can we pinpoint the year that sheet was typed up??



I believe that you can overthink these things.

Wanting to know what-the-hell the most iconic mandolins ever made were made out of??

Of all the myths and mysteries in the world of luthiery--and there's a zillion of 'em--I'd stick that one right near the top of my list....
There's a real good story in there somewhere.... ;)

[Dobe]

So, I lit a fire... Isn't it good ?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Year typed up...of the 10-15 sheets I have, some were prepared in 1919 and some in 1923. Most have F5 added by hand with the F4 denotions...so that sheet I posted is most likely 1919

[Spruce]

Thanks Darryl...
Interesting stuff that really adds to the mystery...

They really valued Picea rubens way before the F5s came along....

[Darryl Wolfe]

and...

[sunburst]

A5! Interesting...
Must have thought they were going to make more than one.

[Gail Hester]

This is really interesting and I mean fascinating in a good way. From lots of previous discussions I assumed we had this figured out that the old Gibson's were mostly Red Spruce and Red Maple with a few hard Maple instruments in the mix. I notice a lot of "worm track" in the old mandolins, Loar F5s and I thought that was only evident in Red Maple. My K4 has Birdseye back and sides which I'm told is only found in hard/Eastern Maple. I had assumed that all of the old As were made with Red Spruce but I have built on A4 with a great piece of Sitka from Bruce with very good results. Incredible documentation Darryl, Intriguing.

[sunburst]

I see more 'worm track' in red maple, generally, but it shows up in sugar maple too. It's an indication of "eastern" maple, but it shows up in Chinese maple too, so nowadays it's even more confusing.

[Spruce]

I see more 'worm track' in red maple, generally, but it shows up in sugar maple too. It's an indication of "eastern" maple, but it shows up in Chinese maple too, so nowadays it's even more confusing.

....but doesn't show up in Bigleaf or European, which can be useful information at times...

[Big Joe]

I did not notice anything about F5 tops in the pages Darryl posted. The indication would still seem to be Red Spruce for the upper end mandolins. That was what was designated for the F2-F4 and the K4 but that was pre Loar. The second page posted was fingerboard material not top material. It is interesting to see how they "graded" the woods then. Even today the woods are graded upon arrival from the wood supplier and that wood that is acceptable is even graded further for the particular instrument intended. If it does not meet the requirements for a particular instrument it is not used or sent back to the provider.

We always had pretty good wood at OAI. Most often the woods on even the lower priced mandolins recieved a bit better wood than was minimally required. Often the woods used for quite a bit better. The one thing that is interesting is that assumptions about the number of grain lines in the top cannot determine the tone to any reliable degree. Some very tight grain tops sound incredible and others not so much. The same with wide grain. This was true on both guitars and mandolins.

There is a much more noticeable difference in the type of spruce used as there also was in the type of rosewood used for the backs on the guitars. The kind of spruce or rosewood each had a tone of its own, but even then a really good piece of sitka may have a tone closer to Engleman and sometimes even Red. Depending upon what tone you were looking for the spruces generally were a bit different from each other both in mandolins and guitars. The difference was more noticeable on mandolins probably due to its size.

The backs were another interesting study. Of course each guitar will sound different with different woods on the back. That is not a secret. However, the difference in tone from Indian Rosewood, Brazilian Rosewood, Madagascar Rosewood, and Cocabola is interesting. Most of us are used to the tone of Indian Rosewood and that is probably the current standard tone for rosewood. It is a good sounding wood and a good piece of Indian will sound much like a reasonable Brazilian. Generally it is accepted that Brazilian is a bit different and usually is. In my opinion Madagascar Rosewood is the best sounding of all of them and seem superior tonally to brazilian. I have also noticed it seems to crack less with changes in temperature and humidity. That may be due to numerous issues which include more recent harvesting and a smaller sampling to base the opinon on.

I love cocobola and it is a wonderful wood to work with (especially if you like to turn wood). It seems very close to Brazilian tonally but certainly has a look all its own. Each of these rosewoods are different in appearance generally and all are good soundwoods, and it has been interesting to see how each has its own characteristics both in appearance and tonally. I suppose it should also be noted that most of the Madagascar Rosewood guitars I've played have also had a Red Spruce top. That will also affect the tonal output of the instrument.

My favorite tone wood for the back and sides of a guitar is currently Walnut. It seems to give the best of the mahogany and rosewood guitars without losing much of either. Wonderful blend. I really like it with a Red spruce top. I currently have a Gibson Advanced Jumbo like that and it is a killer guitar. We use quite a bit of walnut in the guitars and basses we build. It really works good on electric basses. Needless to say there are numerous good woods for instruments and we have each developed our preferences based upon our ears, feel, and musical styles. I have found none that are wrong, only different. What is amazing is how each of us have found the best sounding instrument we have ever heard and most of us have a different description of what that instrument is. That's what keeps the instrument business going :) .

[Darryl Wolfe]

Notice on this sheet how they have added Style 5's. And there are some vague references to curly and plain varieties of maple and birch

[evanreilly]

A5! Interesting...
Must have thought they were going to make more than one.

Seems likely, as this was dated just after the A-5 was signed (9/11/23).

[re simmers]

I have nothing to add except 'thanks for the education.' This is another thread that I will copy & keep.

I'm not a builder, but it sure has my interest.

Bob