Message Board posting guidelines [Archive]

Scott Tichenor

Feb-15-2004, 9:12am

No one should be surprised that I have a select group of folks I have regular discussions with on the health and well-being of the board. Several of them over time have been encouraging me to put together a set of guidelines and this morning I've done just that. Part of me says I'm asking for it by posting this out here for open discussion. I say that because out of 4,500 people, we're all not going to agree and someone is sure to think the word "guidelines" sounds like me hammering on someone's head. Not the case. Most of what follows has been in place and enforced since day one but just never formalized. So, take what you read with a grain of salt and ask if it's for the good or not. The objective here is to simply provide some guidelines that make common sense. My goal is the long-term health and well being of this huge beast and understand that there is an awful lot going on that you don't see, think about or hear about in the operation of this resource. There is no one single event that was the catalyst for this but a combination of several things that have come up recently that make this of value to me. Your feedback/discussion/suggestions/criticism welcome.

Message Board Guidelines

For all members:

The Mandolin Cafe Message Board is a personal web site owned and operated by a single individual: Scott Tichenor. Mandolin related businesses are allowed to contribute financially to this web site through the display of an ad on the Message Board or Mandolin Cafe main web site, but no input is sought from these advertisers in our operation, nor is any control exercised by them in the operation of the board or web site.

Help our community prosper. Our focus in on mandolin-family related topics and as a condition of membership we ask that all members observe a few simple rules:

· Post only mandolin-related images/attachments. Filling up the board space with images that do not add to our mandolin related subject matter serves no one and creates additional download times for modem users.
· Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution. A good rule of thumb is don’t say anything on the message board that you wouldn’t say to someone in person.
· A profanity filter is in place and blocks most inappropriate language. Attempts to creatively use profanity by altering text will not be tolerated.
· Questions or topics specifically seeking to identify minor children is inappropriate and will be cause for immediate permanent ban from further board membership.
· Topics started specifically for the purpose of discussing religion, politics or sex is prohibited.
· Use of the board for any variety of general "spamming" will not be tolerated.
· Any threat or suggestion of physical violence in a disagreement is grounds for immediate suspension of membership.

The above guidelines cannot possibly cover every possible scenario that can arise on this board. In times where the guidelines do not cover a situation it is up to the discretion of the board owner to make decisions in the best interest of the message board.

Vendors: for the good of our community we ask that all vendors of mandolin/music related products/services exercise good faith in clearly identifying themselves. Vendor participation is welcome and valued, and we expect you to be involved in discussions of your products. Visitors to the site arrive from all over the world and possess widely varying amounts of knowledge, expertise and experience with our subject matter. These visitors should be able to discern a business relationship at all times in discussions of products sold in the retail market.

Vendors that advertise n the Mandolin Cafe or Mandolin Cafe Message Board: as a condition of membership, individuals employed by a Mandolin Cafe advertiser are required to clearly identify themselves by their proper full name and employer. A link to your business web page is optional but recommended. This information can be easily added to your message board signature.

Ted Eschliman

Feb-15-2004, 9:53am

Scott I like this.
In every group you have a sort of "curve." You've got about 80% of individuals who understand the importance of "conventions" or "courtesies" ("guidelines" as you just said). These are not Law or Rules, they are just a way to keep things civil, heck even legal in the case of concern for online pedophile.
Then you have the 15% Newbie, who mean well, but just haven't been around long enough to know what's proper. An additional 3% who just want to cause trouble for trouble's sake, and a certifiable 2% that are out and out crazy.
I think what you are doing, though redundant for the 80%, steers the 15% in the right direction, reiterates propriety for the 3%, and gives "legal" ground for removing the 2%.
Those of us in the 80% need to bear with Scott as he does this for the good of the whole.
The other phenomenon I've witnessed is a variation of the "slippery slope."
One poster puts his toe in the water of "questionable," the next pushes his foot, the next poster holds the thread over the water, and then some crazy slips and pushes the whole group into the pool. Everybody gets all wet. Nobody's fault, the party just got a little out of hand.
Then Scott has to be Lifeguard and give everyone a "time out." The first (more innocent poster) can't understand why the strictness, the last one would have never comprehended the impropriety anyway.
Someone last year put it best. Pretend you're at party--a guest at someone's house. Maybe you're "right" is to speak freely, but your obligation is to keep within the courtesy of present group dynamics. You CAN start a fight, just be sure you take it outside the house. (There are plenty of other places on the internet you can do this.)
Thanks, Scott.

Peakbagr

Feb-15-2004, 10:10am

Scott,

I'm the moderator on another Board. We have rules of the road as well. There is a small minority who will gripe when you have to "censor" or delete a post. You will have to deal with that aggravation.
Once your rules for posting are established, they need to be enforced and enforced across the board. Otherwise it leads to some whose posts were squashed to point to other, similar ones, and claim selective-enforcement.
You might consider appointing a couple of assistant moderators. Folks whose judgement you trust, with the right temperment, and who job is to "help out" as they use the board. Answer newbee questions, step in on occasion to separate heated discusssions, and, if necessary, be able to delete a post or thread.
Finally, your suggestion about I.D.ing folks with business connections is great. We get some excellent input from Gibson employees, luthiers, repairman, and others who may have a part-time music business. Some of us who cruise in here every day know who they are, but a large share of occasional visitors, or newcomers don't. The signature block should contain either the name of their employer or the name of the business they run or own.

Peakbagr

Mandomusic

Feb-15-2004, 10:37am

Thanks Scott. Your guidelines are great. Hopefully, having them formalized will minimize future issues/disruptions. One question: would it make sense to have a formal statement of purpose to go along with the guidelines? Since you asked for suggestions, here is a potential starting point for a Mandolin Café Statement of Purpose: “To serve as the Internet resource for mandolin related information so that members can further their musicianship, knowledge of and appreciation for the mandolin family of instruments.”

This is your Website. Therefore, it is your call if this makes sense and if so, what that specific purpose should be.

Mark

Feb-15-2004, 10:42am

" The signature block should contain either the name of their employer or the name of the business they run or own."

I personally have mixed emotions about the above statement. If that's what you would like to see under every post it's certainly easily done. There are dealers among us that have no hidden agenda & the classifieds provide for "dealer" headers and a few of us use them.

Personally I feel like that's nearly the same as asking all posters to add to their signature whether they are "newbie", "intermediate" or "pro" level players. As long as a dealer is using their real name or long standing "Cafe name", I don't feel they should have to disclose themselves as being a "Dealer" in every post. IMHO....

"Vendors that advertise n the Mandolin Cafe or Mandolin Cafe Message Board: as a condition of membership, individuals employed by a Mandolin Cafe advertiser are required to clearly identify themselves by their proper full name and employer. A link to your business web page is optional but recommended. This information can be easily added to your message board signature."

I agree with Scott's version of the above however........

Scott Tichenor

Feb-15-2004, 11:11am

Dale, there's always a blurred line on some of this. Personally in writing this I didn't have individual hobby or side-business dealers such as yourself in mind. I hope saying that doesn't offend you or anyone but it's my understanding it's not what you do for a living, which isn't necessarily the standard I'm looking to measure by. It would be virtually impossible to identify everyone that represents a business out here. That's why I suggest and ask for cooperation as a best practice for non-advertisers. It's not a requirement and thinking I could make it one is a folly.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with people that are in our business being out here talking product. I expect it, I value it, and hope it continues. But I do hope everyone sees the value in identifying themselves as to what they represent. If they're unwilling, why put yourself in a situation where this could be called in question? What's really odd (to me) is not putting a link to your site in your signature. But hey, if business folks wish to avoid a few thousand opportunities a day, so be it.

Scott Tichenor

Feb-15-2004, 11:30am

One more thing on this. I'm not trying to make any kind of wide-scale change here. If you're a business dealer but you're just out here talking theory, technique, etc. who cares if you're identified? If you're out here discussing the merits of the product of a business you own or that your employer sells then that changes the outlook a bit--and not suggesting that means there's a credibility issue so don't anyone read that into this. I don't expect much of a change to occur at all as a result of this but some voluntary compliance can't hurt anyone.

Peakbagr

Feb-15-2004, 12:22pm

Dale,

I hope you didn't take offense at my comments about business owners posting their business name. I also did not mean a gentleman like you who sets the standard in many ways.

Peakbagr

JimW

Feb-15-2004, 12:22pm

Scott, you've ask for feedback so here goes. I personally think that anyone operating as a business or has "dealer" status when they post instruments or merchandise for sale in the classifieds should also have that "tag" or "identifier" when they post on the message board. I would think in the best interest of the users here, many seeking information on an instrument for the first time, that anyone giving a review or information about merchandise that they sell should disclose their dealer status.

Example, suppose I was looking for a Weber Fern, but someone suggests that I would be better off with a Gibson Fern. I, and anyone else reading the post, should be able to clearly see this individual is a dealer and his/her comments could mean financial gain for this individual as he/she is a Gibson dealer but not a Weber dealer.

I really don't think it's that big of a deal for dealers to clearly identify themselves when selling something in the classifieds or posting in the open forums.

Jim Watts

VaFrank

Feb-15-2004, 12:49pm

Scott:

Even though I am a newbie to this site and the mandolin world I agree with JimW. I am a member of other sites and I see how identifying dealers can help. If I am interested in purchasing a mandolin and a member who is a dealer responds, then I can assume that they are knowledgable and may or may not have an interest in selling me their brand. I want to believe that all of us are honest and as unbiased in our willingness to help others as possible. However, we are all human and sometimes our need to push a product only for monetary gain can be inticing.

Frank

Feb-15-2004, 1:06pm

So Jim, it's fine for an individual who has a Gibson Fern for sale to #make the above statement undisclosed....but not a Dealer? Sharing info, opinions & specs about a product a Dealer carries and is familiar with is not necessarily always a sales pitch. Jim has been outspoken about this before (as have I) & while I respect your right to your opinion, I disagree.

Scott & Peakbagr, no offense taken.

IMHO I think Scott's take on it above is spot on & fair to all parties.

JimW

Feb-15-2004, 1:32pm

Dale, in a perfect scenerio, yes, I do think the individual should disclose that as well if he/she is offering an opinion on the instrument or merchandise in question. But, I think that would be hard to enforce.

You're right, we've had discussions on this before and I know where you stand and you know where I stand. We disagree, but, it's great to have the opportunity to express our individualities and opinions in a public forum like this.

Jim Watts

Spruce

Feb-15-2004, 1:33pm

" A link to your business web page is optional but recommended."

I dumped my signature with the link to my business quite awhile ago as I felt my posts were in many ways a conflict of interest...
Although, of course, they still were... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

This was in reaction to many posts I've observed on the Board that were nothing more than blatent ads for product disguised as personal opinion.

Although I'd never come out and say, in a similar example, that "Orcas Island Tonewoods provides the best wood in the hemisphere, and I would only use Acme Tonewoods for my 2nd or 3rd student mandolin", it still felt like I was hawking product when answering wood questions, so I got rid of the link. #Folks who cared would figure it out....

Actually, I prefer to post as a mandolin player or builder, asking questions of those who know, and learning tons of stuff in the process...

So-ooo, in keeping with the guidelines (thanks Scott!) I'll throw the link back on the signature and go from there...

Charlie Derrington

Feb-15-2004, 1:58pm

Actually, I think it's a great idea to identify one's business interests. It stops confusion in the mind of someone who may not know what we feel are obvious connections. It's easy to forget not everyone knows who Joe and I work for.

Charlie

John Flynn

Feb-15-2004, 2:38pm

Scott:

It all looks good to me.

This is just a nuance, but I would go a little farther on the commercial interest thing and suggest that it is good ettiqute that anyone who is giving advice about anything they have a financial interest in, even if it is an accessory, should self-identify.

Also, people who have stuff in the classfieds should not gratuitously publicize that on the board. If they are just providing a link in response to a question on a thread, no problem, but there have been multiple instances of people starting threads or "hijacking" threads for the sake of a product they are selling. I think the "old-hands" see right through that, but I am not sure the beginners and newcomers always do. Just my two cents.

Thanks, as always, for the Cafe'.

Mike Crocker

Feb-15-2004, 3:16pm

No problem with me Scott, but I'm wondering if promotion of worship of the site owner is a breach of the religion rule.

Great place you've got here, do whatever it takes to make it work.

Peace, Mooh.

Feb-15-2004, 5:01pm

OK...I'll follow Spruce's lead on this....

grsnovi

Feb-15-2004, 5:47pm

One thing that bothers me about other boards are HUGE signatures with embedded graphics used by dealers - so that EVERY post made is in effect an advertisement. The other thing that bothers me is when nearly every post made by a dealer is (in some way) trying to sell somebody something.

From my first week of reading this board, it doesn't seem to suffer from that problem.

I was quick to pick-up on the inside insights of Big Joe and Charlie and having them here is great. The two lines in Charlie's sig don't seem objectionable to me.

The important thing is to be responsive to the needs of everyone. If there ended up being a particular individual who wasn't playing "by the rules" you'd be hard pressed to nail them if there wasn't a "published" set of "rules".

Scott, this is a great site!

jim simpson

Feb-15-2004, 6:47pm

Scott,
The guidelines are good and necessary. I feel bad for you having to step in so many times with some of the threads that seem to go out of control. I believe many are started by newbies that don't know better but many jump in that do know better. It certainly doesn't hurt to be reminded of the ground rules.
Thanks for providing a great service to those of us so addicted!
Jim Simpson

J. Mark Lane

Feb-15-2004, 7:11pm

Guidelines are a good idea. #I would require a "click-through" acknowledging that one has read and accepted them as part of the sign-up requirement. #Indeed, once the Guidelines are done, I would require that each current member click-through affirming that they have read and accepted the rules. #(This has legal implications, too.)

In my view, the comments thus far have been overly concerned with the "commercial disclosure" aspects of the proposal. #What you have suggested, Scott, is so reasonable that any objections to it would have to be viewed with a certain amount of suspicion. #(That said, I respect Dale's view, and agree with your response, Scott.) I would add that "It is encouraged that anyone having a direct or indirect financial interest in a topic of disucssion disclose that as a matter of courtesy and honesty to fellow members." #I think the other aspects of the Guidelines are more important, anyway.

A couple of thoughts on specific proposals you made, taken in the order presented (not necessarily the order of importance, imo):

"Post only mandolin-related images/attachments. Filling up the board space with images that do not add to our mandolin related subject matter serves no one and creates additional download times for modem users."

People still use modems? #Generally, I disfavor designing a website around the lowest common access denominator. #If it's a question of server resources, or cost, fine. #But I enjoy a lot of the pics posted here, very much. #Ted has posted some shots of his adorable daughter, as have you, Scott (and as have I and others). #These are just wonderful. #I liked Elen's painting, too. #Is it really that onerous? #In the end, totally your call, Scott. #But I know we have had to give up some of the more "generalized" discussion here, due to abuse, and I hate to see it all go.... #I like these people, and I like hearing about (and seeing) their lives....

"Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discourse, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution. A good rule of thumb is don’t say anything on the message board that you wouldn’t say to someone in person."

I think this is one of the most important "rules." #But I don't like the use of the word "discourse" in the first sentence. #Discourse is healthy, positive, essential. #Ted mentioned something that I often say: A good approach is to think of yourself as a guest at someone's dinner party. #Don't talk about religion, money, sex, politics or other 'sensitive' topics. #The "profanity filter" is essential, and properly noted.

"Questions or topics specifically seeking to identify minor children is inappropriate and will be cause for immediate permanent ban from further board membership."

I wasn't quite clear on the meaning of this (maybe I missed something), but it is a subject that is volatile enough to require clarity. #Do you mean that it is unacceptable to seek to discover the identity of children who are posting here? #Great, but f so, then say so, specifically. #I'm not sure what else it means?

"Topics started specifically for the purpose of discussing religion, politics or sex is prohibited."

See above. #This is right on. #I enjoy a little sex banter as much as anyone, but it doesn't belong here, and when I see it here (far too often) it annoys (and embarasses) me. #I would add a little to the rule, perhaps: "Comments or questions intended to be 'flirtatious' with another member are inappropriate. #Do not assume, ever, that such comments are welcome. #Treat this as you would the workplace, and respect everyone's privacy and dignity."

"Use of the board for any variety of general "spamming" will not be tolerated."

Absolutely! #This is a subject near to my heart. #There are several members for whom this Board seems to be primarily a launching pad for marketing their products. #The products may be excellent (and are mando-related), but the use of the Board to perpetually hawk them is offensive. #I would like to see this stated more strongly, and enforced. #"Unsolicited reviews -- rave or otherwise --are of course welcome and essential to the Board. #But do not post or cause others to post 'endorsements' or other accolades of your products, or republish here comments you have received from customers as a way of pushing your products. #This Board is not your personal advertising space. #Use the Classifieds." #

"Any threat or suggestion of physical violence in a disagreement is grounds for immediate suspension of membership."

I would add the words "even the slightest" before "suggestion."

FWIW, I dislike the idea of employing "deputy marshalls" to watch after and enforce the rules. #A formula for disaster, imo.

I'm sure there's more that could be said. #For example, I would have a specific rule prohibiting the publication here of copyrighted material without the express permission of the copyright holder. #I would also expressly state that offers or solicitations to reproduce copyrighted material (burning CD's, copying sheet music, etc.) are strictly prohibited. #I would also stated that defamatory material is prohibited, will be deleted when seen by the owner, and is a ground for suspension of membership. #I'm sure there's more... that's what comes immediately to mind.

Mark

Crowder

Feb-15-2004, 7:21pm

I think the standards are fair and well-stated.

OzArkie

Feb-15-2004, 7:37pm

G'day,

Thanks for your work, Scott. Your efforts and others is appreciated.

With regard to identifying folks...

Using Dale as an example (sorry mate), it's easy to see by his message counter that he is very active in the Cafe; now I have also noted that he is a dealer which can add more to his credibility in my book (especially taking into account Mandohack's descriptive "80:15:3:2" member demographics [grin]).

For what little it is worth, I (as a newbie) usually look to the member's profile feature when trying to identify more about folks - what they are, what they do, their interests, where they may be generally located and so on.

I would have thought this part of the Cafe would be the natural place to include static info (eg Dealer, website, etc.).

All that said, the feature appears to be highly under utilised.

The ability to search for information in this area would be helpful.

Brookside

Feb-15-2004, 8:32pm

I just wanted to chime in and say that I personally do appreciate a link to your business or at least a signature identifying yourself. As a newish member it is taking me a bit to figure out who you people are. I kept seeing folks saying "I got this wood from Bruce." (like we all know who he is) Finally someone said, "Bruce, who goes by Spruce...." I've not yet seen anything here that I would consider to be a shameless plug of ones' merchandise. On the contrary I respect the opinions of those professionals in this industry. Leave it to me to sort out whether or not I agree with it. If I don't agree, I would almost certainly not think less of your input on other topics. Please, step up and tell us newcommers who you are. It's good for both of us.

mandoJeremy

Feb-15-2004, 8:45pm

I have to also add my two cents worth here. First of all, I work for a music store and I would NEVER push anything that I did't believe in to any of you all. I am a mando freak first and a salesman second. I think the "real" mandolin players know the difference because they have spent time here and know whom is whom and they overlook the newbies that try to start crap because they "know" everything. Basically, I think you guys are forgetting what went on lately with a member and the things he said when Scott wasn't looking. Scott promised to address the issue and he has so it should not be a problem. I very much agree with what Scott has posted and you guys should just be thankful that I am not the board administrator!

mpeknox

Feb-15-2004, 8:47pm

I agree that Scott's guidelines seem fair and well thought out but do agree (somewhat) with J. Mark about the posting of pictures...they do add something to the site. His logic "People still use modems? Generally, I disfavor designing a website around the lowest common access denominator." is contrary to popular web design however. Me and about 2/3 of other home users are still using modems but usually figure out pretty quickly which pages to avoid (Post a picture of yourself, for example). I can see where excessive posting of pictures could become a burden on the servers but I don't believe Scott had posts like these specifically in mind considering their popularity (62,539 views and counting WOW!). I usually wait 'til i get to work and a fat connection to check them out. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

iampeterfonda

Feb-15-2004, 8:50pm

Scott, I think these guidlines are right on.

I haven't quite figured out how to use the Quote button so I've cut and pasted something from J. Mark Lane's post above:

"But I enjoy a lot of the pics posted here, very much. #Ted has posted some shots of his adorable daughter, as have you, Scott (and as have I and others). #These are just wonderful. #I liked Elen's painting, too. #Is it really that onerous? #In the end, totally your call, Scott. #But I know we have had to give up some of the more "generalized" discussion here, due to abuse, and I hate to see it all go.... #I like these people, and I like hearing about (and seeing) their lives...."

I couldn't agree more with this comment--The ocasional personal image of family, location, personal project, etc. is a nice way to get to know other members. #I realize this isn't quite the purpose of the site, but it's nice all the same and helps to build a stronger community.

Scott Tichenor

Feb-15-2004, 8:58pm

Mark, good comments. Some responses:

Yes, a huge chunk of the world is still on modems. There are a lot of fairly recent studies that indicate site sizes and general traffic is increasing at a faster rate than the web's infrastructure. Here's my take on images. I don't have problems with Elen posting a picture of her painting. I don't have a problem with pix of Dale's new car or Ted's daughther or anyone kids or the cats in cases which I intend to contribute to in the next 24 hours. I enjoy these. That's all part of the community. I do have problems with pictures of monkeys scratching their heads and James Brown arrest photos--amusing images that have been deleted out here in the past week but have no relation to anything that I'm aware of. The web is full of this stuff. If it's something personal about a member that's of interest to those that know someone I can handle that. Posting images that have no relation to our content, while amusing, isn't something I'm willing to support long-term.

Minor children/pedophilia: in the past week I've warned and removed the account of someone seeking to identify minors--even after being warned to desist. Second time I've removed this individual for inappropriate behavior. I think you can figure out the rest from this but trust me that this has my attention and I've spent/am spending some research time on this.

The physical threat item this week is what really pushed me into action. Interestingly, what everyone is spending the most time talking about isn't exactly the highest priority but was on the list. Apparently it's pretty important to alot of you and that's fine with me.

mandoJeremy

Feb-15-2004, 9:07pm

I must say that I posted two images that Scott took down and I apologized for because they were unnecessary and if everyone would think before they posted it would be much more pleasant around here (I'm telling myself this also). Also, when someone threatens like the post Scott is referring to it is a BIG deal.

Scott Tichenor

Feb-15-2004, 9:11pm

About five posts while I was composing my previous.

Regarding images posted: you folks are overreacting here. Read the above. There's a huge difference in images that relate directly to our members and I'm perfectly fine with those. Pix of your kids, Dale's car, Elen's painting (nice!), etc., etc. those are *fine*. I like them. I love the section with posts of instruments. Those are fine. Nothing wrong with pictures/images, etc.

What I don't want though is a bunch of images that are just pulled out for a general laugh that don't vaguely relate to anything. Is this making sense? Monkeys = NO. Monkeys holding mandolin = OK. Don't go overboard here. Common sense. It's a mandolin board, not fark.com. We don't need pictures of Saddam or Osama, Britney or a tub of piglets feeding on their mama--all of which have been removed from here in recent memory. Photoshopped fun images I can live with but just exercise some discretion. I ain't your momma. You're going to have to figure this out on your own.

Scott Tichenor

Feb-15-2004, 9:17pm

"But I enjoy a lot of the pics posted here, very much. #Ted has posted some shots of his adorable daughter, as have you, Scott (and as have I and others). #These are just wonderful. #I liked Elen's painting, too. #Is it really that onerous? #In the end, totally your call, Scott. #But I know we have had to give up some of the more "generalized" discussion here, due to abuse, and I hate to see it all go.... #I like these people, and I like hearing about (and seeing) their lives...."
All of those quoted are perfectly acceptable. See above.

Danny Clark

Feb-15-2004, 9:32pm

Scott sounds good ,i hope it will cut out some of the negativity also ,i posted a month or so ago seeking info on a newly acquired Paganoni mandolin i have ,i got hammered ,and it was by some i use to really respect
Danny

8ch(pl)

Feb-15-2004, 9:43pm

I'm with you Scott on all the points raised. If we can't show respect for each other, it is time to do some cutting out. O would want to be contacted if I ever posted anything to offend anyone, so I could apologize and learn from it.

rakelly3

Feb-15-2004, 11:47pm

Sounds like what's been put is pretty much understood. I guess some people need it written out for them. Looks good to me.

pickinNgrinnin

Feb-15-2004, 11:53pm

Guidelines look good. Nice work Scott.

hellindc

Feb-16-2004, 12:39am

I think dealers should be asked to declare themselves only when they are specifically commenting on products related to their business. If a dealer wants to comment on what bluegrass "really" is, or not, or whether Bush or Grisman or somebody else is the most talented mandolinist going, I see no need. Ultimately this has to be self-managed, not imposed. But these are guidelines in that spirit.

On staying away from "religion, money, sex, politics or other 'sensitive' topics." Since a lot of music takes religion, money, sex, and politics for a theme, it's going to be hard to enforce this consistantly. Gratuitous remarks on these subjects, meant simply to tick-off others, are certainly not welcome. But sometimes the world does intrude on our art and our hobbies.

I agree that without any rules, there will be those who exploit threads for ulterior motives and disrupt the conversations. I think a section where controversial topics could be aired would be useful. Anyone who attempted to politicize or prosyletize could be directed there.

Let me add that I surrender on this issue right now as a non-starter. I can see which way the wind is blowing. But I'll throw it up to see if anyone else thinks it's worth having the site provide musicians with a place to talk about the other important things in life, besides mando. (See Robert Putnam's book, "Bowling Alone," for the importance to democracy of people talking about politics and other issues in life's ordinary meeting places.)

I will say that Scott has been very even-handed in maintaining the rule of "on-topic" only.

MEP

Feb-16-2004, 1:20am

I have only been reading this forum site for the last 21/2 months but what I have appreciated about it is the lack of name calling and flame throwers. I like the fact that it is on-topic. Thank you Scott for having high standards and an excellent site.

Scott Tichenor

Feb-16-2004, 7:49am

On staying away from "religion, money, sex, politics or other 'sensitive' topics." #Since a lot of music takes religion, money, sex, and politics for a theme, it's going to be hard to enforce this consistantly. #Gratuitous remarks on these subjects, meant simply to tick-off others, are certainly not welcome. #But sometimes the world does intrude on our art and our hobbies. #
There are plenty of instances where these topics will come up in the course of conversation and it's acceptable as long as it's kept in context. Not trying to squelch that. What this means is that this board isn't going to host topics started completely outside of our music focus. Examples of what's not in our focus: "Lets talk about the evils of the Republican Party!", or "All Catholics will end up in to hell!."

Scott Rucker

Feb-16-2004, 9:19am

Scott, I understand your need to do this to keep the thing going. The proposed guidelines appear entirely proper. Thank you for seeking the input of the users here. The fact that not too many board owners would seek users' input on this issue shows your levels of compassion and humility.

It would help me and others here to try to always remember that many opinions espoused on the board are in most instances just that, opinions.

Jim Roberts

Feb-16-2004, 9:32am

Scott: #Would the topic "Let's talk about the evils of MANDOLIN PLAYERS who are members of the Republican Party!" be kosher?

Look forward to seeing you at the First Annual O'Carolan reunion! #I'm willing to throw in a small keg of Prairie Pale Ale if the Academy will let us consume on the property!

Keep up the great work here on the Cafe and heart-felt thanks. #Your ongoing dedication to the mandolin world is appreciated more than you'll probably ever know.

Jim

jasona

Feb-16-2004, 11:57am

These guidelines are fair, and pretty standard for web forums. I agree with the points made my Mark Lane, especially the click through to accept the policy (including established Cafe members).

Having once moderated a high traffic, low maturity forum for a top selling computer gaming service, let me echo a point Scott has made that I think folks should keep in mind. Not everything that is a major headache to the administrator of a site is seen by end viewers. Scott has no doubt been the recipient of nasty letters, threats, email bombs, and other attacks. The comment about pedophiles trolling our waters for minors is very disturbing, but is a fact of the net that needs vigilance from administrators.

I want to tell Scott publically that I really appreciate all he has done to grow our community. When I first grew interested in the mandolin, this was the first site Google came up with. I can't honestly say what was the second; I've never gone back and checked, because I've never left this page. Everything I've needed to know, I've found here. As my interest has deepened, other parts of the site have become more important to me. Scott, the time (and money) you spend on this site is deeply appreciated, has set a fire under me, and has really helped advance my playing in ways you will probably never know. Thanks.

kgimbal

Feb-16-2004, 12:05pm

Scott,

As a daily patron of the cafe, and an occasional poster here, I too would like to applaud your efforts to install reasonable guidelines for posters. Since I received my first mandolin, a '29 Gibson AO, two years ago for Christmas, through a purchase of a Gibson F-4 via the cafe classifieds, to the trading of that instrument to a well known mandolin player for my new Randy Wood A-5, the Mandolin Cafe has been central to my development as a player. Although I must admit the raucous posts of late, including the most offensive one with the invitation to meet behind the woodshed, have been fun to read and amusing, I believe the interests of all of us will be best served by following the guidelines set forth. Thank you for all you do for all of us.

Kim Gimbal

stanley

Feb-16-2004, 1:04pm

I'm not trying to make more work for scott and dan (& everyone else that helps with the cafe's site)...

But, I've been wondering if the 'classifieds' area could be revamped or improved. Currently, there are over 250 listings in the general section...which is just a wee bit more than I want to browse through (at 25/page). And I love checking 'em out, as there always seems to be something interesting floating around....but I'll never make it through a list of 250.

I'm wondering if it would be reasonable to break it up into sections say...assecories, private, and dealers. Also, on the main page could a couple of fields be added...such as price and number of views? These could be helpful for both buyers and sellers. For example, if someone is looking for a camping 'paddle', then they can shop by price. Or if I see that only 2 people looked at a certain ad (mine or otherwise) then something could be interpreted from that.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw it out there for discussion....

BTW,thanks for all your efforts.
Bill

Spruce

Feb-16-2004, 1:05pm

It's interesting to note how other boards handle the issue of commercialism.

The Musical Instrument Maker's Forum (http://www.mimf.com/), for example, has some very stringent rules that do not allow even the mention of where to obtain goods and services, links to URLs, posting of addresses or phone numbers, or even a discussion of prices paid for anything. #
I'm not exaggerating...
Here's the guidelines:

"We do not allow anything that even hints at commercial advertising outside of our "Builders' Supplies and Services" section (rates are 50 words: $50/quarter or $170/year; 100 words: $100/quarter or $340/year). If you have a commercial product or service to offer, please see the ad rates page for reciprocal, commercial, and banner ad information. If you want to make an offer of a commercial product or service to another MIMForum participant, do so via e-mail. Please do not use a "tag line" or "signature" at the end of your message to describe your business. It will be deleted by the staff (immediately). As you will see, your name is automatically pasted to the beginning of your message so you do not need to sign each message, and you can use the "Preference" button to add the name of your business as the second line in the header of any message you post.

Our regulations on posting information about businesses in which you have no financial interest are as follows: you may mention a business by name and city/state, but may not post the URL, live link, street address, e-mail address, phone number, or prices for any commercial website, business, or product that is in competition with our advertisers. That means no wood suppliers, suppliers of tools, parts, and/or services to the instrument-building community, or any site selling musical instruments. You may post complete contact information about non instrument-related websites/products, non-commercial instrument-related websites, and general suppliers of tools and hardware and the like. Under no circumstances are you allowed to post such information about your own commercial website or product, no matter what business you are in. Please don't ask us to make an exception because your business "isn't really commercial." If you sell anything, you're a commercial business. "

Not only are the guidelines very strict at the MIMF, by they are monitored 24 hours-a-day, 6 days a week (they don't allow posting on Saturdays in order to take a much-deserved break).
If you happen to post a phone number or address of a business supplying jeweler's saw blades, for instance, it will be removed immediately...

I'm not slamming the MIMF (although I think their policies are a bit Big-Brotherish and stifle participation--certainly mine), but merely pointing out how lucky we are to have a board like this one which allows free flowing conduits of information of all kinds.

Can you imagine not being able to discuss the prices of mandolins (even if it's a 1914 F4!), where to buy a good drill press, the URL of a company offering the latest in Brazilian mandolin CDs, etc. etc. etc.? #

It would get pretty boring (and non-informative) around here in a big hurry....

jehannarc

Feb-16-2004, 1:37pm

Excellent rules Scott. As a "lowest common denominator" modem user I also appreciate your including us in your attempts to make the board user friendly.

I have long thought you should charge for membership to mandolincafe.com. Not much, just $10-20 a year or so. The information I've gleaned off of here has been invaluable and I would gladly pay a yearly fee for it. Might help weed out some of the wackier people as well. However, others may think my suggestion is insane, and being lowest common denominator as I am, I think they should expect that.

Brian Baker

Feb-16-2004, 1:38pm

Scott:

Good work on this!

Don't want to be an English nerd, but regarding trolling/flaming, I think the work you were looking for was "discord", not "discourse"... We don't want people posting inflammatory messages designed solely to create discord (i.e. strife amongst the mando community), but we welcome posts that create discourse (i.e. thought, discussion, exchange of opinions and ideas).

Whatdya think? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Brian

Scott Tichenor

Feb-16-2004, 2:26pm

Don't want to be an English nerd, but regarding trolling/flaming, I think the work you were looking for was "discord", not "discourse"... #We don't want people posting inflammatory messages designed solely to create discord (i.e. strife amongst the mando community), but we welcome posts that create discourse (i.e. thought, discussion, exchange of opinions and ideas).
You are absolutely right on that. I did use the wrong term.

BTW, all you worrying about images, I hope you saw the picture of my cat in a mandolin case I posted this a.m. Remember, that's a cat. Not a monkey. But had it been a monkey, it would have been acceptable since it would have been inside of a mandolin case. Heh, heh.

Eugene

Feb-16-2004, 2:46pm

Well, this is all just fine. It reads like I should carry on here in this fine cyber-place as always...and I will. Thanks for providing the most benign vice going, Scott.

neal

Feb-16-2004, 6:05pm

Good Ideas. I'll be good. Except that I think mandoJeremy's sig line is a blatant promotion of tupperware over ,say, rubbermaid.:p

mandoJeremy

Feb-16-2004, 6:35pm

Now Neal, if I happen to run across a Rubbermaid Moon I will offer it for sale to you but only through email and I will change my sig. line to say PLASTIC MATERIAL MOONS R US.

Chuck

Feb-16-2004, 7:07pm

Scott, Amen to all (whoops, no religious connotation intended) I only marvel and admire the perseverance, time and efforts you put into this site. Thank you.:)

sunburst

Feb-16-2004, 7:18pm

Scott,
I stuck my toes out as far as I could while I read your guidlines, and I didn't get them stepped on at all.

I am a builder and repairer of mandolins as well as other fretted instruments. Would you suggest that I should indicate this with a signature or something with each post? I can't link to a web site yet because I don't have one yet, 'tho it's in the plan.
I kind of like the anonimity of the "sunburst" handle, and I don't feel like I'm hiding behind it, but if anyone feels I should anounce who I am I'd be glad to.

John Hamlett

chirorehab

Feb-16-2004, 7:46pm

With other boards I frequent, there is usually a moderator that oversees a Forum - why not use your FAQ project coordinators for this? Or some other volunteers?

Eric

Scott Tichenor

Feb-16-2004, 9:05pm

To answer these last two: John, unless you're recommending one of your instruments to purchase I don't have a problem with you not posting your identity, although I do think people respond better to a real person instead of a handle. If you're just out discussing building ideas, general chat this isn't necessary. If you're out here discussing your products, that's different.

As far as moderators, I've never had one and I don't see that boards with them function any better than this one. The single best thing everyone can do to really make sure this board runs well is to follow the general guidelines, be a good citizen and helper (don't hop on the newbies with clever/dumb answers), stay in synch with the general board tone and keep the nasty stuff to yourself. This isn't so hard to do really. Things run well around here most of the time. This conversaton wasn't started because something needed to be fixed. Just good to establish a little formality and then get on with the fun. It appears to me that there are quite a few people that have read this and agree with how we operate and the more we can get on board the better.

Feb-16-2004, 10:14pm

So, take what you read with a grain of salt and ask if it's for the good or not. ... Your feedback/discussion/suggestions/criticism welcome.
Let's see... three pages so far;
ONE page of good discussion of vendor I.D.
ONE page of miscellaneous "good job Scott", (and it is)
ONE page of explaining to people to READ the rules.

LOL! Whether or not it will be for the good or not, Scott, it is still well worth the effort IMHO. Hopefully it will be regularly read.
A suggestion for you though... I would not put owner discretion into a buried paragraph at the end of the rules. It should be #1. Underlined. And should read something like (a suggestion only, maybe a bit harsh)
This site is owned by me, Scott Tichenor. You are welcome here at my place as long as you act according to the rules set below. If you willfully violate the rules, deliberatly insult my other guests, or otherwise prove yourself an unwashed social tu*d, I will throw you out. It is, after all, my place. When in doubt about the other rules, refer to this rule and make the right choice. Thank you and enjoy your stay.

hellindc

Feb-17-2004, 12:56am

Scott,

Reasonable reply on my suggestion. I appreciate you taking it seriously enough to replay. I also thank you for what you do here and do think the guidelines are on the whole reasonable.

mandopete

Feb-17-2004, 10:02am

Scott,

This all sounds good to me. As usual, thanks for the great work here on the cafe!

mandopete (F.K.A. mandoPETE)

Joe F

Feb-17-2004, 11:06am

Regarding pictures and modems: #I've seen some web sites offer a "text-only" option (usually a link on the front page) for those with slow connections. #I have no idea how hard that would be to implement, but it's might be something to consider if a number of people here are using modems.

mad dawg

Feb-17-2004, 11:31am

The general posting "common sense guidelines" work for me, but I will let others with stronger opinions continue to weigh in on the business-owner signature issue.

LilCreekster

Feb-17-2004, 11:39am

I think the guidelines are more than fair. #

In the final version you may want to clarify the picture related statement (as is, without reading this discussion I would assume that the photos of kids & cars would be off limits).

The identifying kids thing is worrisome, as is physical threats... that those have to be covered at all is lame (meaning that people can't figure that out themselves) #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I personally like seeing the sites that folks are affiliated with. #It never bothers me (and as mentioned, a few lines of text is nothing compared to the full graphic signatures on some boards... talk about slow DL times) #I also find this board refreshing that many people, generally regulars, don't "hide" behind a handle. #Being anonymous is one of he factors behind blatant rudeness... people get pretttty bold when there's no consequences cause no one knows who they are. (not saying that everyone does, but I've seen it happen FAR too much)

If nothing else, having the guidelines gives something to point to if one is violated (rather than 15 people jumping in and adding to the "negativity" that has been discussed more than once).

Thanks for everything you do Scott... stuff we see, and alll the stuff we never do. It is very much apprictiated.

Michael H Geimer

Feb-17-2004, 12:43pm

Scott,
This is my favorite Internet site ever. That's the only unique opinion I have to offer in this thread. I totally concur with all the support and praise offer by others. It is a good thing to have someone looking out for the quality of the board.

Thank you thank you thank you thank you http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

- Michael Geimer

Bluegrasstjej

Feb-17-2004, 1:23pm

Michael: I agree with you!
Scott: Thank you for a wonderful site!! I found this site a few years ago and have been checking it once in a while and visited this discussion board on and off for a long time with different screen names (because I forgot what name I used..). Now I'm here to stay. This is such a great resource for us mandolin pickers, lots of good info and you can learn so much from other players here.

About that everyone should post the names of their companies, I'm not really with you. I can see your point in that when dealers talk about mandolins and accessories, if they post the name of their company in the signature. But that would mean that if I talk about health related topics (not that that would happen on a mandolin board, but it's just a thought) I should underline that I'm a nurse so that people will know that I know what I'm talking about? Can't people who are not dealers know a lot about mandolins and accessories? Or do you mean the purpose is to make it easier for pickers to find dealers so they can contact them?

Really, I don't mind this, but it just got me thinking.
It's great to have those guidelines. Well done.I've never been offended by anything in here, but it's good to have guidelines to avoid bad stuff.

Thanks again Scott and keep up the good work!

DarthWoody

Feb-17-2004, 1:35pm

Dear Scott,

This web site represents the best of the web.

The professionals who post here are terrific resources. #If they add their affiliation in their signature we can discern for ourselves any bias they might have on a particular topic. #Also, I like being able to follow such links and learn about a luthier or tonewoods or whatever.

I strongly recommend that anyone who advertises more than once a month in the Classifieds be required to list their ad as Dealer only. #Many such individuals also select "For Sale" with the result that the listing index does not indicate "Dealer". #Obviously, if they are a Dealer then they have stuff For Sale, so For Sale is superfluous. #Using "Dealer" however, adds information.

Also, we have a number of regular Classified Users that, in practice, are Dealers, though they do not identify themselves as such in any manner. #I think there is an important distinction between an individual selling off an odd mandolin once a year, and someone running an instrument dealership, even if that is not their vocation.

And the cat pictures are great! #Made me remember how much fun it was to have cats, without actually having to get another one. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Stephen