Adding a Cast Tailpiece?

[Bob Scrutchfield]

I will be getting my new Rover RM-75 F Mandolin soon. I'm really exited about getting it and I have a question about having the seller add a cast tailpiece before I pick it up.
:mandosmiley:

How much does adding a good cast tailpiece such as an Allen, James etc add to the tonal qualities of a Mandolin. Given that the Mandolin is set up correctly by an experienced luthier.
I can see where a good cast tailpiece might help with better sustain of the strings but does it improve any other tonal qualities or just add to the aesthetic looks of the Mandolin?

Thanks in advance for your information and suggestions :)

[Kevin K]

I believe from experience it will improve the tone and volume over the factory piece. I good well fit bridge over the factory one will help too. Replaced both on a friends Rover and very satisfied after the work was done. Very decent mandolin.

[Rob Gerety]

Just keep in mind that these things all cost money and add to the "price" of your mandolin. I have often wished I spent the extra money on a higher end instrument rather than spending it on improvements.

[Spencer]

There are several threads on this topic if you search for them in the archives. Lots of folks, myself included, found no noticeable tonal changes with the cast tailpiece, so it may not help. A good bridge and bridge installation should be highest on your priority list.

Spencer

[fatt-dad]

I wouldn't bother. A good mandolin will sound good and a great mandolin will sound great with a conventional stamped tailpiece. Some may argue tone improvement, but it'd have to be way below wood, gradations, tone-bar fie, nut, saddle and other more important stuff.

Just my opinion. . .

f-d

[Cheryl Watson]

If the tailpiece is really cheap and makes it hard to change strings, then I would get a very good quality Gibson-style tailpiece like the ones at First Quality Music Supply. Use all the hooks--makes it easier to string. The hooks break quite easily on the cheap tailpieces.

[Charley wild]

Just keep in mind that these things all cost money and add to the "price" of your mandolin. I have often wished I spent the extra money on a higher end instrument rather than spending it on improvements.

I agree with Rob. It adds to the price and you're not going to get it back when you trade or sell. As mentioned, if you're going to change to improve, go with the bridge. But with a mandolin of that price range, all the improvements in the world and it'd still be an Rm-75. A good mandolin but to paraphrase Rob, save your money for your first up upgrade. Lastly, in my experience changing to a solid tailpiece is kind of a dubious way improve volume or tone.

[steve V. johnson]

I know a couple of folks with Rover 75s who changed the tailpieces. One fellow put on one the nice black Breedlove ones, mainly for ease of string changes, but he says that the sound changed some. Another fellow got an Allen cast tailpiece that was a 'second' from Randy Allen on eBay, and I heard it before and after, and I think it changed the sound for the better.

It's been a while now, but after I got an instrument with an Allen tp I did some retrofits on mandolins and octaves for friends. The motivations were ease of string change or to put some weight on the end for balance, but not really to affect the sound. The aural benefits of cast tailpieces have been debated here, and from the discussions I don't think there's a clear conclusion. In my experience, the Allens affect the sound of less expensive instruments more than they affect more expensive ones, and in 'boutique' instruments the effect is negligible (or ... debatable ... ).

As for expense, some basic upgrades are inexpensive - a nice bone nut doesn't cost much; a nice bridge costs a bit more, and a Allen tp more than that. All of these can be removed to other instruments, and a nice bridge and tailpiece can be sold. I'm not inclined to do hardware experiments on a several-thousand-dollar custom instrument, but I find it great fun to do some nice hardware upgrades to manufactured instruments. I always learn things in the process and, as I mentioned, the parts can be kept, moved, or sold.

Enjoy,

stv

[Bob Scrutchfield]

Thanks to all for responding with your information and suggestions.~o)

Having read your informative replies, I've decided to just add a new set of J74 strings and maybe a nice bridge & then just enjoy playing and practicing often. fwiw..The Rover is my first upgrade..lol I've been playing a Washburn M1S A style entry level mandolin for a few years and now it has a tone bar that is coming loose from the top. I reached a point where I needed something that was easier to play and that sounded better. I was really impressed with the Rover RM-75 and it fit the bill just right for me. (and my budget).
I won't be upgrading again for some time as I think it will satisfy my mandolin needs for a good while.:mandosmiley:

Thanks again for your input.:)

[8ch(pl)]

Probably the stamped tailpiece that comes with the Rover is pretty bottom end., it may rattle some, have a poor fitting top etc. I have seen them fail, cracking in the corners. A cast tailpiece like a Weber, for around $80 will give a rigid foundation to the strings. Whether it will improve tone, sustain, volume etc. is probably not provable, unless there are harmonic problems with the stamped tailpiece.

[mandroid]

How much does adding a good cast tailpiece such as an Allen, James etc add to the tonal qualities of a Mandolin.

Not much at all, But aesthetics may still win you over, anyhow.
Allen has some that will let you grab a quick spare .010" .. from the guitar player.

[mandobassman]

I put an Allen tailpiece on a previous mandolin I owned and while I liked it a lot (much easier string changing and much nicer looking) I heard no change in tone whatsoever. I kept reading about how much better the sound would be with a cast tailpiece but it just didn't happen. I didn't regret doing it though because I have always hated stamped, 2-piece tailpieces.

[EdSherry]

A good cast tailpiece will cost you on the order of $100 installed, maybe more. The Rover sells for just over $400. I personally don't think it's worth doing (though if you upgrade to a better mando in the future, you can switch the cast tailpiece to the new one), I would opt for a better bridge, a good nut and a good setup instead.

[fatt-dad]

bear in mind that a new bridge will need fitting and if not properly fit will sound poor. Paying a luthier to fit a bridge will cost you something and i'd guess that'd be like $25 to $50 bucks.

f-d

[Ben Milne]

bridge, nut, setup etc. good ideas..


here's an analogy (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BLXZxYY6_v0/S7NXopsdW7I/AAAAAAAAC9s/4L9zKHzo25k/s1600/19462_270068616181_270060841181_3276839_1524890_n. jpg)for what i think Ed was getting at.

[Mike Bunting]

bridge, nut, setup etc. good ideas..


here's an analogy (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BLXZxYY6_v0/S7NXopsdW7I/AAAAAAAAC9s/4L9zKHzo25k/s1600/19462_270068616181_270060841181_3276839_1524890_n. jpg)for what i think Ed was getting at.

I was expecting to see a silk purse and a sow's ear!

[Fran]

Both my mandolin and Irish bouzouki came with a cheap basic stamped tailpiece, I wanted to upgrade them mostly for aesthetic reasons, but was not ready to spend $150 a piece only for that. Then I looked at the instructions on how to replace a Allen TR-1 tailpiece, and saw an interesting detail: they mention that factory-installed cheap tailpieces rest on the top of the instrument, while theirs do not. Does it really make a difference? They say it does, I can't really tell. Perhaps it does with quality instruments, where the tonal quality of the top can be muffled by the plate. Allen also says that their tailpieces better transmit the string vibration to the instrument. I doubt it, since this the job of the bridge, and the tailpiece is screwed to the side. In any case I bought better stamped tailpieces for about $10 each, which are slightly angled up, and when installed, do not come in contact with the top of the instrument. The covers are nicely decorated, so even if the sound isn't really improved, at least the instruments look better.

[mando_dan]

Hi Bob,

Congratulations on the purchase of your Rover; I hope that you spend many happy hours together.

Unlike 99 44/100% of the posts here on the Cafe, this is on I feel qualified to address. I totally agree with Mr. f-d who posted above regarding the sort of descending list of what effects tone. When I started playing I really tried to tweak my Washburn to bring out the best it had to offer. New nut, new bridge, and new cast tailpiece. While none of those things did anything bad, they didn't do too much that made that me feel, wow, that really made a difference. In retrospect, the amount I spent would have been better stashed in the bank for an eventual upgrade.

As everyone says, a good setup is key to good tone. I finally get this; once it's dialed in, it does produce the wow factor. Happy picking!

[mandobassman]

Both my mandolin and Irish bouzouki came with a cheap basic stamped tailpiece, I wanted to upgrade them mostly for aesthetic reasons, but was not ready to spend $150 a piece only for that. Then I looked at the instructions on how to replace a Allen TR-1 tailpiece, and saw an interesting detail: they mention that factory-installed cheap tailpieces rest on the top of the instrument, while theirs do not. Does it really make a difference? They say it does, I can't really tell. Perhaps it does with quality instruments, where the tonal quality of the top can be muffled by the plate. Allen also says that their tailpieces better transmit the string vibration to the instrument. I doubt it, since this the job of the bridge, and the tailpiece is screwed to the side. In any case I bought better stamped tailpieces for about $10 each, which are slightly angled up, and when installed, do not come in contact with the top of the instrument. The covers are nicely decorated, so even if the sound isn't really improved, at least the instruments look better.

I don't know how Allen or anyone else comes up with the idea that a stamped tailpiece rests on top of the top plate. I have never seen this. I have two mandolins with stamped tailpieces and neither rests on top. One is a cheap-as-it-gets Rogue and while is a terrible tailpiece, it does not rest on the wood. I still feel that buying a new tailpiece should be for easier string changes, no rattling or buzzing, or for looks, but NOT for a tone improvement.

[Fran]

Well, my little Samick mandos, my Trinity College bouzouki and my new MK mando all had their stamped tailpieces resting on the top! I agree with the functional and aesthetic issue.

[8ch(pl)]

Fran, the Weber tailpieces that I installed on both of my Mid Missouri instruments have a small prtrusion cast into them that should rest on the binding part of the top. In both cases, I used the existing screw holes, which lined up OK, but elevated this protrusion slightly above the binding. I had to fabricate a shim so that all the strain was not borne by the sides and the mounting screws.

As I have posted in the past on the subject, tonal improvements are likely due to having put new strings on as part of the Tailpiece Swap-out. I like the solid properties and feel that , mechanically, there is an improvement. My instruments are important to me, not in a financial sense, but because they define my music. These are excellent mandolins for the money. I decided to improve them to make them the best they can be with pickguards, armrests and cast tailpieces.

I am probably going to get new tuners at Christmas. I have fitted 2 other instruments ( a Samick A and a Vega mandolin banjo). with the tuners from Stewart MacDonald. The Samick's tuners failed after about 15 years. The Vega's were 90 years old.

I think that improvements, even in the owner's mind should be done with consideration to more than just money value. As our playing improvement progresses, the mandolin becomes part of the player. If it was that way with Bill Monroe, a broken down old Amateur Folk musician like me should aspire to it as well.

[Paul Busman]

I put this inexpensive one (silver) on my inexpensive Fullerton Gloucester:
http://www.instrumentalley.com/Ashton-Bailey-Cast-Mandolin-Tailpiece-Gold-p/ab-tp-fslash-gd.htm
I did have to alter the screw holes a little, but no big deal. I don't know if it made a sound difference, but for $43 I like the visual improvement a lot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/Brewerpaul/tailpiece.jpg
BTW-- I didn't want so much shiny metal on my mando, so I borrowed a trick from the Allen website and spray painted the interior part of the tailpiece black.

[Fran]

I put this inexpensive one (silver) on my inexpensive Fullerton Gloucester:
http://www.instrumentalley.com/Ashton-Bailey-Cast-Mandolin-Tailpiece-Gold-p/ab-tp-fslash-gd.htm
I did have to alter the screw holes a little, but no big deal. I don't know if it made a sound difference, but for $43 I like the visual improvement a lot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/Brewerpaul/tailpiece.jpg
BTW-- I didn't want so much shiny metal on my mando, so I borrowed a trick from the Allen website and spray painted the interior part of the tailpiece black.
Nice alternative to the $100 Allen! I understand that the screw positions may not match exactly with those of the original stamped tailpiece, but what about the tailpin? Do your mandolin have a screwed tailpin, or a "plug" style?

[Paul Busman]

Mine has a screwed tailpin, and that hole fit fine. I just had to plug and redrill two others. Easy. The repairs show a tiny bit around the end of the tailpiece but they don't show very much against my mando's matte finish.

[akjed]

I'm going to add an internal pick-up to my Kentucky KM 1050, and when I talked to the guy who is going to do the work, he asked if I was going to replace the tailpiece, and if so, better to do all that work at once. Can anyone on here convince me one way or another. I'm not really stoked on the stamped piece that is on the instrument.

[Austin Bob]

I'm going to add an internal pick-up to my Kentucky KM 1050, and when I talked to the guy who is going to do the work, he asked if I was going to replace the tailpiece, and if so, better to do all that work at once. Can anyone on here convince me one way or another. I'm not really stoked on the stamped piece that is on the instrument.

I had an Allen tailpiece installed the same time as I added the K&K internal pickup. If you plan on changing the tailpiece anyway, it makes sense to do them the same time so you don't pay additional labor.

I don't like the stamped tailpiece either, but I didn't change it because I was looking for better sound. I just liked the look, feel, and functionality of the Allen tailpiece.

[mandroid]

just left the old Gibsons alone , the newer A50 already altered with a Magnetic pickup, And the Lebeda was fair game ..

but a tailpiece that you dont have a cover to remove to change a broken string in a Gig Is a nice thing.

[texaspaul]

I have used Allen tail pieces on new mandolns with a small increase in sustain and maybe, maybe richer or fuller tone. But then all this may be due to maturing wood and break in. I did not find string changing any easier just different. One plus was no cover plate rattle or difficulty in taking off the cover plate.

[akjed]

Thanks. Yeah, part of my desire to change the tailpiece is aesthetic, but also because the stamped piece seems chintzy. I can't include a photo right now, but under the cover the dampening felt is haphazardly glued on and the hooks are kind of weak. Anyone familiar with a Golden Gate piece?