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View Full Version : Any help identifying this old mandolin?



michaelpthompson
Jan-04-2011, 1:46pm
Got this on eBay. The seller said it belonged to her father. She said it was dated to the 20s or 30s, but didn't know much else about it. I'd appreciate any insights as to its history. TIA.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs036.snc6/166604_10150357925000367_747200366_16678794_630496 9_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs050.snc6/168024_10150357925030367_747200366_16678797_363352 5_n.jpg

Sorry for the poor quality photos, the first one flashed and made glare, so I turned the flash off and the longer exposure made it hard to get a sharp photo. Hopefully, between the two there will be enough detail to make an ID.

BTW, it's a bowl back "tater bug" style, and I've replaced the original tuning pegs. I could not find any markings, labels or other identifying information.

Bill Snyder
Jan-04-2011, 2:26pm
I hope you put on extralight strings. Bowl backs can not handle the tension of anything heavier.

Jim Garber
Jan-04-2011, 2:38pm
It is hard to tell from the pics, but it looks like the tuners are new replacements and to top looks pretty funky. Even budget bowlbacks from that period would not have wood with that sort of grain. I might say that it was made in eastern Europe -- doesn't look like a vintage American, Italian, German of French to me -- that is just a guess.

Take a picture of the bowl and maybe a few more closeups -- that sometimes helps. Better to take photos outside than depend on flash.

michaelpthompson
Jan-04-2011, 7:46pm
Yeah, the fellow in the shop recommended GHS Silk and Steel. They're not quite the lightest he had, but he said they use less tension than the slightly lighter ones.

michaelpthompson
Jan-04-2011, 7:48pm
I did replace the tuners. Several of the buttons were slipping on the old ones, and when you got some tension on the string, it would no longer turn the gear.

I'll take some more photos outside and post them.

michaelpthompson
Jan-07-2011, 6:53pm
OK, I've taken some more photos outside. Hope this helps. Here's one taken in the afternoon sun (that's when I got home from work.):

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs055.snc6/168514_10150360822900367_747200366_16730219_169363 2_n.jpg

Here's one of the bowl. I don't even know what kind of wood this might be.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs762.ash1/165395_10150360822755367_747200366_16730215_542269 9_n.jpg

Here's some detail on the top

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs047.snc6/167783_10150360823030367_747200366_16730222_801047 9_n.jpg

And another overall.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1396.snc4/164855_10150360822950367_747200366_16730220_214716 0_n.jpg

There are more views, including some details of various parts, in my Facebook album.

Mandolin photos (http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=601042&id=747200366&l=a568d380a0)

Schlegel
Jan-07-2011, 8:44pm
Looks oaky to me. Odd.

barney 59
Jan-08-2011, 1:50pm
The back does look like oak. I haven't seen an oak bodied mandolin before. It was commonly done on some early 20th century parlor guitars.

Jim Garber
Jan-08-2011, 4:07pm
It also looks like the top is sinking under the bridge which may not be original. This is not a high end instrument, in any case.

mandobassman
Jan-08-2011, 9:44pm
I'm not sure why someone would recommend Silk and Steel strings for a bowlback. I used these for years and they are actually pretty heavy tension. I would recommend using something much lighter such as the flat wound strings from Jazzmando.com. I have a set on my old bowlback and they sound fantastic. Flat wound strings have much lighter tension because of their design and are a perfect match for bowlbacks.

Jim Garber
Jan-09-2011, 9:49am
Flatwounds might be good -- I have never used them on bowlbacks, but that is just me. On the vintage ones, I use GHS A240s which seem to only be available from juststrings.com. Otherwise, I use Europeans strings, usually Dogal Calace RW92b sets or sometimes German made Optima or Lenzner/Fisomas. You may very well be correct about the silk and steels and the tension. Some bowlbacks can take light gauge like Daddario J62s.

michaelpthompson
Jan-09-2011, 4:14pm
The fellow in the store seemed quite knowledgeable, and this store is one of the best in our area for acoustic instruments. He recommended the Silk and Steel even though the E was .011 and they had some .010 ones in another brand, because he said the Silk and Steel used less tension. I did order some flatwound from Jazzmando. I'll see how they work. If they are less tension, it may make it easier to play.

Bill Snyder
Jan-09-2011, 4:40pm
Looking at the photos on your Facebook album it looks like the neck angle might not be good and although it is hard to tell with the worn frets the action looks high which would go along with the neck angle being off. This is just observation from the photos and may not be the case.
I also noticed that you commented that you thought that the mandolin has a truss rod. Someone more enlightened than I am might know otherwise but I have never heard of a vintage bowlback mandolin having a truss rod.

michaelpthompson
Jan-09-2011, 9:19pm
You may be right Bill. I postulated a truss rod because there's a block of wood inside under the top that's in line with the neck, and I can feel a hole in it, as if there might be a bolt or screw down inside. A luthier looked inside with a mirror and light but couldn't see anything.

It certainly doesn't have a truss rod cover like newer mandolins, but I thought there might be something inside of that block.

michaelpthompson
Jan-09-2011, 9:22pm
The neck appears straight enough on sight, though I haven't put a straight edge on it. From appearances, any extra height in the action would appear to be more related to the bridge height than anything else.

Jim Garber
Jan-09-2011, 11:06pm
67031

The nut looks a bit homemade and the strings are not properly spaced, at least it looks like that from the photos.

michaelpthompson
Jan-10-2011, 12:27am
You know I was wondering about that. The A strings don't seem to be spaced the same as the others. Makes it a bit harder to get the fingering right, though I'm still a newbie at the mandolin. But in general, the treble strings seem to be wider apart than the lower ones.

Jim Garber
Jan-10-2011, 8:59am
I would have a qualified luthier look at it. It still looks to me to have a sunken top and the nut is definitely not right -- spacing is wrong and prob angle of the strings over the nut looks wrong as well.

michaelpthompson
Jan-13-2011, 12:24am
I did have a luthier look at it, and I noticed things that she did not. The neck was a bit loose, for instance. I glued that and it seemed to help. I've put a straight edge on the neck and it has a bit of a bow in the middle, and there's a fret missing right where it joins the body. Seems like I should at least replace that one, and the nut, and see if it's worth doing a fret job altogether.

Jim Garber
Jan-13-2011, 8:45am
The luthier did not notice that the nut was mis-spaced? And I still see some sinkage in the top from the above photos, but perhaps that is an optical illusion?

brunello97
Jan-13-2011, 9:38am
Does those look like oak staves for the bowl? I thought there had been some speculation on some thread sometime about the use of oak in some American made bowls, but I could be mistaken. Not that it suggests this was US made, it just has been rare for me to see it. I agree with Jim, top grain looks muy sketchioso. I wouldn't recommend investing a whole lot into getting this up and running. Lots and lots of good quality low-price American bowls are floating around the ebay market.

Mick

Schlegel
Jan-13-2011, 11:21am
I don't like to cast aspersions, but not noticing that your nut appears to have been made out a dowel worries me.

michaelpthompson
Jan-13-2011, 8:47pm
A dowel for a nut adds character, don't you think?

michaelpthompson
Jan-13-2011, 9:20pm
It's hard to say Jim. There does seem to be some sinking right where the bridge goes, but it's uneven. I tried to put a straight edge on it, but it's hard to gauge since there is a rise at the bridge anyway.

The luthier seemed more interested in the interior braces, which were indeed loose. I glued them back in place, but I don't know how stable that will be. She didn't mention the nut, though I've now been informed that a round nut is not standard, and the strings are indeed unevenly spaced. This whole thing has certainly been an education.

Schlegel
Jan-13-2011, 9:52pm
This whole thing has certainly been an education.

That's pretty much how I felt the first 3 times I bought a mandolin on Ebay. :confused:

Jim Garber
Jan-14-2011, 9:29am
You can get a nut blank from Stewart MacDonald (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/String_nuts.html). They may even have some instruction on the site on how to set it up properly.

michaelpthompson
Jan-15-2011, 10:48pm
Thanks Jim. I'm definitely looking into that. They seem to have a nice pre-shaped blank that would work. It's labeled for several guitars, a banjo and a mandolin, and is quite a bit too long but I assume I can cut it to length. Here's a better photo of my current nut:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1393.snc4/164568_10150367983915367_747200366_16857415_422988 6_n.jpg

Whoever put this on seems to have tried to space the strings evenly, which makes the treble ones a bit too far apart. It's even worse on the A course, which is already a bit farther apart than the E strings.

I can get the nut for less than ten bucks, and they seem to have a nice stainless steel rule gauge for about $20. Biggest drawback seems to be the nut files at $13 bucks each. Four of those is over fifty bucks. Kind of steep for a cheap mando. I'm looking into alternatives.

michaelpthompson
Jan-15-2011, 10:58pm
The neck also seems a bit bowed. It's less with the strings off, which doesn't fill me with confidence, though I've received the flatwound strings from Jazzmando, so maybe those will not bend it as much. Even without strings, it shows a little bend.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs244.snc6/179219_10150367983995367_747200366_16857420_811591 8_n.jpg

The top also has a dip, as several people pointed out from some of the other photos.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs014.snc6/166470_10150367984015367_747200366_16857421_504165 2_n.jpg

It's not as bad as the shadows make it look in these photos:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs787.ash1/167765_10150367984045367_747200366_16857422_508165 9_n.jpg

It does have a definite dip right where the bridge goes, but I'm not sure whether it affects the playability or not. I'm thinking maybe to replace the nut and see how much difference it makes.

michaelpthompson
Jan-15-2011, 11:02pm
BTW, if I understand correctly, worn frets show low spots where the strings hit them. These frets seem quite low, but are pretty flat and even:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs754.ash1/164507_10150360823135367_747200366_16730225_541520 2_n.jpg

Makes me wonder if somebody just dressed the crap out of them or something. It's pretty obvious the nut has been replaced, maybe some amateur did a lot of work on this thing, eh?

Schlegel
Jan-15-2011, 11:14pm
"Makes me wonder if somebody just dressed the crap out of them or something. It's pretty obvious the nut has been replaced, maybe some amateur did a lot of work on this thing, eh? "

Maybe, but super low frets were normal back then, so they may well be as original.

michaelpthompson
Jan-15-2011, 11:18pm
I was wondering about that too, which is why I thought I'd replace the nut and see if it's playable. It's not impossible to play now, but difficult to get a clear tone on the treble strings. That may be just because I'm a guitar player and not used to such small frets and such. It actually has kind of a nice tone, though I have trouble telling one mando from another in that sense. I tried out five or six at the local shop yesterday and all of them sounded decent to me. Easier to play than mine, but maybe I can overcome that. In any case, I'm enjoying the process of learning about it.

n0ukf
Jan-16-2011, 10:55pm
Does anyone mind if I add my own "identify this mando" posts and pics here or should I start another thread?

michaelpthompson
Jan-16-2011, 10:59pm
I'm kind of torn. On the one hand, it doesn't bother me a bit if you add yours, but on the other hand, I wonder if you'd get better response with a separate thread. There are a few faithful ones who've been posting on this one, but other people who took a look and had no idea may be ignoring it. Don't really know for sure.

allenhopkins
Jan-16-2011, 11:53pm
Does anyone mind if I add my own "identify this mando" posts and pics here or should I start another thread?

Start a different one. We're old and easily confused.

Jim Garber
Jan-17-2011, 4:20pm
As noted by your luthier the dip in the top indicated that a brace or two was loose. I suppose it couldn't hurt too much if it doesn't affect the playability however the correct structure of this would be to have an induced arch -- inn fact that is the case with any "flattop" mandolin.

n0ukf
Jan-18-2011, 5:36pm
Maybe what I put in the bowlback pictures thread will do. If not, I can still start another identify thread.
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?1898-Post-a-Picture-of-Your-Bowlback-%28or-any-others%29&p=881957#post881957

michaelpthompson
Jan-18-2011, 5:43pm
As noted by your luthier the dip in the top indicated that a brace or two was loose. I suppose it couldn't hurt too much if it doesn't affect the playability however the correct structure of this would be to have an induced arch -- inn fact that is the case with any "flattop" mandolin.

It does have an arch that peaks at the bridge, but it is less in the center than at the edges. I reglued the braces, so that should help.