John Lennon

[whyner]

30 years ago today. Just got laid off from my seasonal job in the woods getting ready to go back to school. Was at home for the holidays and watching the news with my Dad. Never will forget that.

Steve bonehead - noob
Oregon

[barney 59]

I was in Yogyakarta Indonesia and the whole city was in mourning or so it seemed.

[Mandolin Mick]

As a former bassist & keyboardist for a popular Beatles tribute band, I always wake up to December 8th and think of John Lennon like a generation thinks of December 7th and Pearl Harbor or November 22nd and the JFK assassination. "Where were you?"

I was 21 years old and in an old hotel in Milwaukee that I still see everyday (and can't believe still exists). For some reason I was watching Nightline and that's how I got the news. Was completely stunned and too shocked to cry. But I cried the next day when I heard Mind Games on the radio; the line "love is the answer". I made the pilgrimage to New York and stood on the sidewalk outside of the Dakota where he was shot and talked to the doorman.

That music is the soundtrack of my life. I came to know Pete Best (the Beatles' drummer before Ringo), their first manager Alan Williams, and a lot of other people that knew the Beatles personally. I can't help but reflect on John this day.

I grew up and have come to disagree with much of what John believed, but it's the inescapable truth that I became a musician because of the Beatles and nobody deserves to die like that. :(

[Murphy Slaw]

I heard it from Howard Cosell, during the game. I was a big fan at the time, already had all his solo stuff.

He never heard the word "internet".

[journeybear]

You may say he was a dreamer, but he was not the only one.

And when he said the dream was over, he was talking about something else.

And if we would just let it be, the world really could live as one.

I don't know if any other musician or songwriter ever (or these days) tried to expres that kind of idealism, the kind that sounds so out of bounds as to seem mad. And to do so in such a simple, almost childlike manner, putting such an astonishing career on the line when he could easily have been denounced as a fool, took some guts. This is not my favorite song of his, not by a long shot, but it sure resonates with a lot of people. And I am fine with that.

I heard about it the next day, a cold rainy, fittingly gloomy day, on the radio driving around town in my job as a courier. I remember giving a hitchhiker a ride, just driving in stunned silence. I don't remember anything else from that day. I'm sure I watched a lot of TV news coverage but none of it stuck with me.

[re simmers]

I was 21 and heard it on Monday night football. Cosell wasn't convincing to me for some reason. It sounded too shocking. It didn't make sense that Lennon would be so accessible right in front of his home. I called some friends. No one was sure. This was prior to the internet, and I don't think there was any 24 hour TV news. So I stayed up for the 11:00 news. I was shocked.

Dr. King, RFK, George Wallace, John Lennon, then Reagan.....all shot by criminals who just decided that they would get a gun and shoot these famous people. Frightening.

The next day my boss, a Beatles fan allowed us to go out and purchase Lennon albums & we talked about Lennon at work.

Lennon was genius.

Bob

[jaycat]

I was working the night shift in the composing room of the Wall St. Journal in Chicopee, Mass. when someone came out with the announcement.

I don't think I was as shocked as some other people seem to have been. There had already been Otis, Janis, Jimi . . . you know the list . . .

[Nelson Peddycoart]

I grew up listening to the Beatles here and there. I remember when the US tried to deport John and knowing who he was, but had not developed a real appreciation for the Fab Four or John's work at the time of his death.

I remember watching the evening news (I had just turned 17) and wondered why all the people were making such a big deal out of a singer getting killed. I bought Double Fantasy right away and started listening to it. That led me to delve into the Beatles' work, then John's solo work. I read books on the Beatles and John and learned what a great heart and soul he had.

It made his music mean more to me when I knew more about him and his childhood problems.

While I don't agree with some of his stances on various things, one really has to agree with the core themes in his solo work: love, honesty, freedom, compassion.

I find it very ironic that those themes are so prevalent in his solo work, because he usually contributed the darker material to the Lennon/McCartney stuff.

Enough rambling.

I hope he found his peace....

[catmandu2]

core themes in his solo work: love, honesty, freedom, compassion.

I find it very ironic that those themes are so prevalent in his solo work, because he usually contributed the darker material to the Lennon/McCartney stuff.


He also took many risks in his exploration and expression; a true artist.

[Glassweb]

I was at The Dakota after the shooting occured. The saddest, most bizarre 12 hours of my life. Never gotten over that night... NYC was in collective shock for weeks.

[mandolin tony]

I live in Queens N.Y.,for the love of me what was he thinking ?,walking the streets of Manhattan like he was a reg person.I will allways love his music to the day I die,John we miss you.

[journeybear]

Some nice thoughts there, Nelson. I too found inspiration from "Double Fantasy." I thought his music had gotten slack, but that album showed he was back on track. It was his best album since "Plastic Ono Band." Even Yoko's contributions were good. (Insert objections here.)

His first album had some pretty dark stuff, as did several songs on later albums ("How Do You Sleep?" for instance was pretty raw). so it was not all sweetness and light ... but I don't want to quibble. Not today. I wish he were still with us.

And Tony - I know, I know, but a guy ought to be able to walk between his car and his home without worries, even in NYC.

And jaycat - what sets this apart from the other deaths of 60s greats is the violence. Different from carelessness.

[mandolin tony]

still can not listen to Imagine & happy xmas(war is over still makes me cry) sometimes I wonder whats wrong with me. one day before I die I am going to have to make a trip into Manhattan & go to Strawberry Fields

[catmandu2]

...but I don't want to quibble. Not today.

If John were here, he'd be quibbling. Arguing is a good way to honor him, IMO.

[Mandolin Mick]

I think what bothered alot of us besides the tragedy of somebody murdered like that was the realization that the Beatles would never reunite. I know the 3 others finished "Free as a Bird" and "Real Love"; but it's not the same. "I'm the Greatest" off Ringo's self entitled album sounds more like them, with John, George & Ringo; minus only Paul. I know they would have got together ... eventually ... but it's probably good, music-wise that they didn't ... doubtful that they could've regained the magic of the `60's.

I think it's arguable that if they would've stayed together another 3 years they would have produced music even better than we know. With George's "All Things Must Pass", John's "Plastic Ono Band", Paul's "Band on the Run" and Ringo's "Ringo", it's clear that the 4 of them were at their solo creative peak in the early `70's. But, we'll never know ... :(

[mandolin tony]

well at least he has some good company now,with George up there he was very under rated.just picked up his cd,let it roll,pretty damm good.

[Nelson Peddycoart]

His first album had some pretty dark stuff, as did several songs on later albums ("How Do You Sleep?" for instance was pretty raw). so it was not all sweetness and light ... but I don't want to quibble. Not today. I wish he were still with us.

You are right, it wasn't all sunshine. Mother, How Do You Sleep?, Instant Karma, most of the Menlove Ave. disc, I Found Out.....

[catmandu2]

...but it's probably good, music-wise that they didn't ... doubtful that they could've regained the magic of the `60's.


Given John's sensibilities, it's possible that he may have resisted the temptation to accede to the proceeds generated from the nostaligic reunion-genre money-making machine. It's a nice thought to think that he wouldn't have succombed. Frankly, I can't picture him sitting on the lawn with the other three in that bucolic setting while Paul mocked for the camera. George and Ringo--as affable as he is-- seemed not to be particularly enjoying the moment.

John seemed to value artisitc integrity, and was most willing to acknowledge the past-tense successes of the 60s. Of course, who knows what he might have been compelled to do..

[journeybear]

Good point(s), Mick. It was really weird how the 60s ended. Suddenly it was 1970 and things just changed. It was like the end of the century, thirty years early. Suddenly there were no more Beatles - as if they decided they were from the 60s only - Jimi and Janis died (Morrison the next year), ... It was really abrupt.

[Mandolin Mick]

But, he might have done it for the right charity. People couldn't picture him as a house-husband either... people change.

[Mandolin Mick]

Bear-

I guess, according to the studio logs, the only thing the Beatles did in the `70's is George's redone solo on "Let it Be" which appears on the album version. His best solo IMHO!!!

[catmandu2]

But, he might have done it for the right charity.

That's what I suspect. And our razors become duller, it seems, with time.

I was amused by the portrayal of the Yoko character in the BBC produciton "Lennon Naked"--a wide-eyed, innocent fawn.

[Nelson Peddycoart]

During the documentary that Yoko put out some years ago, there is a scene in which they are on the lake and "God" is playing. Many people in the theater got pretty emotional. I think the answer might be right there...

I don't believe in Beatles,
I just believe in me,
Yoko and me,
And that's reality.
The dream is over,
What can I say?
The dream is over,
Yesterday,
I was dreamweaver,
But now I'm reborn,
I was the walrus,
But now I'm John,
And so dear friends,
You just have to carry on,
The dream is over.

[CES]

I was six and have no recollection of the event, or of it even making our "radar" at first. My folks were more Elvis fans (I can remember my mom crying the day he died, and that she had tickets to see him a couple of weeks later--which she turned in for the refund rather than keeping), and tended to think the Beatles were just weird. Which, of course, they were, but I think most creative geniuses tend to be a little "weird," and I really don't mean any disrespect with that comment. I still think they were weird, but I love the music...

The Challenger exploding and 9/11 are my generation's "where were you" moments so far...and I'm quite content to have no more of those moments.

It's a shame the way he died, the circumstances, and the violence of it all.

[jaycat]

And jaycat - what sets this apart from the other deaths of 60s greats is the violence. Different from carelessness.

Well, that's a given, of course. But -- and not to be callous -- one might argue that Hendrix had many years of god-only-knows-what creative heights ahead of him when he died. I'm not sure we can say that about John.

[journeybear]

I know. My point was pretty obvious. And to be perfectly honest, if it were within my power and I had to choose, I would probably rather have Hendrix still alive. That's affected by my being more of an instrumentalist than a vocalist, as well as being so curious about how far he would push the envelope. But I'm glad it isn't up to me. Because I would also like to have Jerry, Lowell, Janis, George, and Stuart Adamson back as well as many others too numerous to mention.

[journeybear]

According to this aricle - Rolling Stone releases Lennon's final interview (http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=615821&GT1=28102) - the next issue of RS will contain the entire interview conducted just three days before his death. This will be out Friday.

Also, this article (http://music.msn.com/john-lennon/story/feature/)offers insight into how he felt about his voice - not too happy was he, same as Hendrix - and mentions an upcoming release of a stripped-down version of "Double Fantasy."

[jim simpson]

My wife left me a note with the bad news of John's death on the bathroom mirror as she had already got up and left for work - It was a shock.

[Mike Black]

According to this aricle - Rolling Stone releases Lennon's final interview - the next issue of RS will contain the entire interview conducted just three days before his death. This will be out Friday.

The full 9 hour last interview can be down loaded via free Podcast (http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/john-lennon-the-rolling-stone/id408490909).

[Mandolin Mick]

The Beatles producer George Martin has said in several interviews that Lennon disliked his voice and was always asking him to "do something" with it. I know he recorded Yer Blues with his back to the mic and Revolution lying down, just to change the sound of his voice!

[Tom Wright]

My favorite story is "Tomorrow Never Knows" being recorded with submerged plastic-bagged microphone, and Martin had to kind of conveniently stand in front of the rig so as to not upset EMI swells visiitng during the session.

[mandofarmdog]

I remember getting the news of John's death the day after he was murdered. The news numbed me. I was in my last year of college and felt as if a great part of my own self had been ripped away. I remember watching the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show to this day. I grew up singing their early songs and developed part of my social consciousness from their later work as a group and as soloists. I remember just days before the shooting discussing with a close friend how the material on Double Fantasy showed that Lennon seemed to finally have all his #### together and felt there was hope for my friend and me. Maybe there still is.

[catmandu2]

People couldn't picture him as a house-husband either... people change.

House-husbandry is cool. I'm enjoying my current status as such. :mandosmiley:

[RichieK]

In 1983 I started a 2 year residency at Roosevelt Hospital in NY, where Lennon was brought after he was shot. All of the doctors and nurses on call that night told me he had no chance, due to the location and the number of times he was hit. I always thought about him whenever I was in that Emergency Room. Roosevelt Hospital is only about 13 short blocks away from The Dakota..maybe a little more than a half mile.

[Jim Bevan]

65712 (That's me on the left.)

That night, I innocently and unsuspectingly turned on the radio, and listened to hours of uninterrupted Beatles music, gradually getting the feeling that something was wrong, someone must have died, before the announcer came back on the air and finally said something.

That feeling has stayed with me. Years later, in a Japanese restaurant, they played only Beatles music one night, I guess just 'cuz it's great music, but it all came back -- the feeling that something was wrong, someone else...

[mandolin tony]

some please tell me just why was it so important for John to be a New yorker & even an American ?.

[Mandolin Mick]

John thought that New York was the center of artistic creativity. As far as being an American, he answered an American reporter who asked the same question that you did, "Why do you want to live here? It's great place to live and work!"

[catmandu2]

some please tell me just why was it so important for John to be a New yorker & even an American ?.

Have you ever been to NYC? That's where it's at.

At the time John left Britain, he was being hassled by a number of entities. I think that in addition to the artistic freedoms and opportunities, he enjoyed being able to walk the street without being mobbed.

[jack crowder]

Never was a Lennon fan. I heard about his death the next morning and thought how ironic someone who preached peace was murdered in such a way and went on to work.

It's sad when anyone is murdered, no one wins.

[nick a]

65712 (That's me on the left.)


jim, PLEASE tell the story of the picture!

i just turned 1 year old, and obviously dont remember that night, but for almost 20 years now, the beatles, and john in particular, have been an endless source of fascination for me. john wasnt anywhere near perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but his message (overall) ;) and the music with which he delivered it, i believe has positively impacted the world and will continue to do so for generations to come. RIP john.

[bones12]

I was living in Kalamazoo, Michigan and working at a hospital at night when I heard that awful news that cut into my heart. The impact of such a senseless tragedy has moved me all these years. Give peace a chance. Doug in Vermont

[Jim Bevan]

That picture was taken in Philadelphia, at a TV studio, in 1975. It was some kind of benefit fund-raiser something, I was there with a band, and John was there doing good works in an effort to hang on to his green card? Something like that -- it was definitely during the U.S. Against John Lennon period. We knew he was going to come through the doorway behind us, so we and a guy with a camera waited for him, and when he appeared we asked if we could take a picture with him, which of course he agreed to, maybe 'cuz he's a nice guy, and maybe just 'cuz we were respectfully organized and didn't waste his time.

There's youtube stuff of him on the Tom Snyder show, from later that evening -- he's wearing the same clothes.

[nick a]

thanks jim, that is a cool story!

[Sandy Beckler]

I remember it like it was yesterday (no pun intended) My Japanese wife (Hiroko) and I were Northbound on the 405 (Los Angeles) at just about Santa Monica Blvd, on our way home from dinner at "The Black Whale" on Washington Blvd in Marina Del Rey...(They used yo serve "Piles" of Alaskan King Crab Legs along with a 2Lb Prime Rib) when we heard the "telling" three Beatle tunes in a row, and the ugly announcement of his death.
We went home and sent flowers.....don't know where they we but we sent em'

Sandy;)

[Jim Ferguson]

If you want to see John's influence on the Beatles, all one needs to do is look at Rolling Stone Mag's list of the Top 100 Beatles tunes and check out the top 10.......heavy John influence and also great to see George with 2 songs in the top 10....well deserved. Here is the web link.........scroll down for the top 100:
http://mediocremusicblog.com/2010/08/rolling-stone-picks-their-top-100-beatles-songs-of-all-time/

PS......what the heck is Revolution doing at #13??? Definitely a top 10 Beatles tune in my book. Loved that they put A Day in the Life at #1 too.......awesome song!!!!!!

[Fretbear]

After reading McCartney's "Many Years From Now", it became very clear that Lennon was the original (British) punk, which was the reason that I never liked him very much. His work with McCartney will live forever.

[Dan Hoover]

i heard howard cossell say it,i thought,what? i didn't hear that right...then i heard on the news..i remember being numb..just thinking thats not right..i think now,looking back on john lennon,that the real shame was,he was so looking forward to making music,getting out there again..saying how great it is to be alive,doing what he's doing..being very positive..it was,still is a sad day..i prefer to remember his birthday..we could use a john/yoko now days..

[billkilpatrick]

it didn't register with me. we had a vegetarian/wholefood shop in s. london at the time and one of the people we got to know quite well because of it, came in in tears - i didn't know it at the time but she and john were cousins. much to my shame, my immediate thought was "oh come off it."

i liked his voice but by in large, i didn't like his solo songs - the lennon/mcartney songs are in a category all their own but the stuff he wrote by himself was - i thought - irresponsible ... pretentious.

george, however ...

and btw - i think mark chapman should never, ever be allowed out.

[John Flynn]

I have always been a huge Beatles fan, but I was not a "Lennon solo" fan at all. I agree with Bill, I found his solo stuff pretentious. His death was a tragedy, but for me no more so than any other senseless death.

[jaycat]

the stuff he wrote by himself was - i thought - irresponsible ... pretentious.
.

Pretentious . . . maybe. But "irresponsible?" . . . please explain.

[Randi Gormley]

If I recall correctly, I would have been working for a small paper in Michigan at the time. I wasn't assigned to go get reactions from the man on the street or anything, but I do recall seeing the wire pictures come in and thinking that NYC wasn't quite the mecca the artistic community thought it was if people could lurk outside your house and kill you. I had never been a big Beatles fan and certainly didn't care for John's solo work, but I remember how upset a lot of people were, more so than when Elvis died.

[billkilpatrick]

Pretentious . . . maybe. But "irresponsible?" . . . please explain.

i was thinking about the " ... talk about destruction you can count me out (in)" line in "revolution" - which was it? his more popular than jesus quip could have been nipped in the bud and the "paul's dead" polemic was equally silly and unnecessary.

having said that, his love songs are in a class all their own -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dYP4KY9rK8 - it was when he augmented his pop icon status with the role of a culture bearer that he went off the rails (imh - humble, that is - o.)

[billkilpatrick]

and this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8o6yic1FPg

[jaycat]

i was thinking about the " ... talk about destruction you can count me out (in)" line in "revolution" - which was it? his more popular than jesus quip could have been nipped in the bud and the "paul's dead" polemic was equally silly and unnecessary.


Hi Bill, I dunno, maybe you had to be there (not sure how old you are). But Revolution was pretty mild compared to (just to pick an example) the Airplane's Volunteers stuff. Even the Stones chimed in (Street Fighting Man). There was all kinds of blather going around in those days (not that I don't and didn't agree with a lot of it). The Last Poets, The Fugs, . . . at least John didn't try to levitate the Pentagon!

I agree that How Do You Sleep was off the mark. Especially "the sound you make is Muzak to my ears." To me, some of Lennon's late work is pretty Muzak-y.

[billkilpatrick]

i'm ooooold ... i remember seeing a report recently of some activists who took part in the pentagon levitation jape. one activist - from the east coast - said he saw the event as a zany news item that might or might not cause embarrassment in military circles but that others - activists from the west coast - were very concerned to get the chanting absolutely right so that magic spell would work ... "thus," he said "illustrating the major difference between east and west coast."

any reservations i might have about him are nothing in comparison to my respect. he'd be 70 years old now ... whew ...

[jaycat]

any reservations i might have about him is nothing in comparison to my respect. he'd be 70 years old now ... whew ...

Amen.

Where does the Bad To Me (demo?) version come from?

[billkilpatrick]

Where does the Bad To Me (demo?) version come from?

... dunno' - cadged from the "second most popular search engine on the internet" - youtube.

[Glassweb]

I have always been a huge Beatles fan, but I was not a "Lennon solo" fan at all. I agree with Bill, I found his solo stuff pretentious. His death was a tragedy, but for me no more so than any other senseless death.

Yeah... How about that "Imagine"... pretty pretentious and overindulgent alright...

[journeybear]

The thing with "Imagine" was he was asking a lot of people. And even though he was expressing himself honestly, and meant well, it was a bit condescending to say things like "I wonder if you can" and "It's easy if you try." Sure, he wanted to move the world forward and its inhabitants toward enlightenment, but asking people to imagine things like no possessions, no countries, and no religion is asking a lot. Pretty radical concepts, really, even if served up with a pleasant melody and ending with an optimistic wish. Heck, I have a hard time just getting people to imagine rock music played on a mandolin! :mandosmiley:

[catmandu2]

Allow me to offer an alternative viewpoint.

If we view art, not within the domain and with the same limitations as we do discursive thought, and we apply principles of "artistic perception" (not the same thing as aesthetic sensibility), the song effectively conveys import and transformation through the usual mechansims of art. Through "abstraction," "language" is created not intended to be perceived and comprehended by the discursive process, but by metaphor and intuition. Artistic form is a projection, not a copy. The work of art is an apparition. These are among the reasons why "Imagine " succeeds on an artistic level; that it endures as a seminal work is testimony to its effectiveness in conveying significant form across wide cultural spectra.

As a pop song, it may have deficiencies.

[jaycat]

JBear: or as Elvis Costello sang: "Was it a millionaire who said "imagine no possessions?"

[catmandu2]

JBear: or as Elvis Costello sang: "Was it a millionaire who said "imagine no possessions?"

And Schopenhauer was cranky and irrascible. Does this dilute his message concerning compassion?

[jaycat]

I don't know anything about Schopenhauer, but I do think you gotta walk the walk. Or at least try, to the best of your ability.

[catmandu2]

I don't know anything about Schopenhauer, but I do think you gotta walk the walk. Or at least try, to the best of your ability.

On one level, I'm sure that's valid. And perhaps he did so, indeed, to his best ability.

Sometimes, I'm a bad father. Though, I try to find value despite ostensible barriers. Seeking to integrate our disparate and seemingly dissonant aspects is challenging work. That Lennon pursued it is commendable--he had personal demons and deficiencies perhaps beyond yours and mine. I'm sure his adolescent years (having not benefited from attentive parents) provided barriers to overcome. I'm sure that being a millionaire provided its own set of challenging conditions.

His art, however, is something else that I don't know must be judged by the circumstances of his personal life.

But, despite all of that...what's conflicting for a millionaire (or anyone else) to "imagine no possessions," etc.? It seems as logical as the indigent person imagining wealth and riches. If nothing else, I suspect the song was a good catharsis.

[billkilpatrick]

Allow me to offer an alternative viewpoint.

If we view art, not within the domain and with the same limitations as we do discursive thought, and we apply principles of "artistic perception" (not the same thing as aesthetic sensibility), the song effectively conveys import and transformation through the usual mechansims of art. Through "abstraction," "language" is created not intended to be perceived and comprehended by the discursive process, but by metaphor and intuition. Artistic form is a projection, not a copy. The work of art is an apparition. These are among the reasons why "Imagine " succeeds on an artistic level; that it endures as a seminal work is testimony to its effectiveness in conveying significant form across wide cultural spectra.

As a pop song, it may have deficiencies.

agreed - murder mystery writers are not - one assumes - criminals-in-waiting or love poets casanovas.

fretbear mentioned that lennon might have been the first punk - an interesting and accurate observation, me thinks. there was definitely a "nyah-nyah-nah-nyah-nyah" about him.

[catmandu2]

agreed - murder mystery writers are not - one assumes - criminals-in-waiting or love poets casanovas.

fretbear mentioned that lennon might have been the first punk - an interesting and accurate observation, me thinks. there was definitely a "nyah-nyah-nah-nyah-nyah" about him.

He could write a good "protest song," eh? John was interesting on many levels--the politcal song genre being one. Woody, Bob, the bluesmen...an interesting exercise to reflect on the lineage of protest in music and culture.

"Imagine" acts on several levels: it functions as political protest; cultural critique; personal confessorial; spiritual ideal. I think one of the ways it succeeds in appealing to so many is through its expression of all of these aspects--its import--allowing us to cathart collectively. If art is, as Suzanne Langer suggests, human consciousness expressed through a single metaphorical image (or song), this is a great work of art.

[Nelson Peddycoart]

...was he was asking a lot of people...

Maybe he was. Maybe he wrote the song for someone in particular and we just listened as he preached to them.

[jaycat]

His art, however, is something else that I don't know must be judged by the circumstances of his personal life.

But, despite all of that...what's conflicting for a millionaire (or anyone else) to "imagine no possessions," etc.? It seems as logical as the indigent person imagining wealth and riches.

Lennon was one artist who went out of his way to reveal his personal life through his music. So one might say he put it out there for the judging.

And yes, his imagining may not differ -- theoretically -- from that of a poor man imagining great riches. But John chose to hang his hat at the Dakota, not up in Harlem.

[Nelson Peddycoart]

From Wikipedia:

"In the book Lennon in America, by Geoffrey Giuliano, Lennon commented that Imagine was an "anti-religious, anti-nationalistic, anti-conventional, anti-capitalistic [song], but because it's sugar-coated, it's accepted."

[jaycat]

Hey, I'm a huge fan, but John was just as much of a capitalist as the next guy. Witness all the Beatles' legal wranglings . . .

[catmandu2]

Lennon was one artist who went out of his way to reveal his personal life through his music. So one might say he put it out there for the judging.

And yes, his imagining may not differ -- theoretically -- from that of a poor man imagining great riches. But John chose to hang his hat at the Dakota, not up in Harlem.

Could be. But I think John may have also possesed a sort of destitution, alienation and poverty in other respects, perhaps as significant.

[catmandu2]

From Wikipedia:

"In the book Lennon in America, by Geoffrey Giuliano, Lennon commented that Imagine was an "anti-religious, anti-nationalistic, anti-conventional, anti-capitalistic [song], but because it's sugar-coated, it's accepted."

I suspect that many fail to recognize the protestation in the song, as well..

[jaycat]

Cat, you make good points. So do I. Isn't it amazing that we're ace mandolinists as well? :-)

[mando_dan]

Frankly, I can't picture him sitting on the lawn with the other three in that bucolic setting while Paul mocked for the camera.

Huh? Please explain Paul's mocking for the camera.

[Elliot Luber]

I was 21 years old and driving North from Boston on route 93 to the newspaper where I was working near New Hampshire. I was listening to WBCN-FM, which only recently went off the air, and they announced that John Lennon had been shot in New York, that they were waiting for word of his condition, and the went into "Starting Over" from the then-new Double Fantasy. In the middle of the song they faded out, gave the time and call letters for history, and said only that he was dead, and then finished the song. "Starting o over... starting o over." It would never be. I was so shocked I had to pull over for ten minutes on the shoulder to get myself together. That was the first time I ever felt old.

[catmandu2]

Hey, I'm a huge fan, but John was just as much of a capitalist as the next guy. Witness all the Beatles' legal wranglings . . .

What of the soldier who goes to war on behalf of the nation with which he differs ideologically? I think John was a warrior.

[catmandu2]

Cat, you make good points. So do I. Isn't it amazing that we're ace mandolinists as well? :-)

Moreso, I like cats..

[jaycat]

What of the soldier who goes to war on behalf of the nation with which he differs ideologically?

Don't get me started on that one! Plus, the moderator might pipe up anytime now . . .

[tree]

My apologies in advance for those who find this intellectual analysis of John Lennon compelling. And I do not mean that in a disparaging way to those who do :), I just tend to be more interested in listening to the music, in this case. Lennon's life was way too complex for me to put much faith in lengthy analysis of his motives or beliefs, but that's just me. YMMV, and viva la difference.

So, I'm driving to work yesterday Yer Blues and Everybody's Got Something To Hide (Except Me and My Monkey) played back to back on my iPod. Of course I turned the volume up higher than was probably healthy.

Say what you will about Lennon, but IMO when he delivered a song he gave you the honest goods, with feeling, every single time.

[catmandu2]

Agreed. Personally, I'm interested in Lennon as the cultural figure that he was. I know little of his personal life--other than by a brief synopsis. Lennon's relevance is in his message, not his life, particularly, IMO.

I enjoy much of his music very much. But art, however, I find highly compelling and am guilty of thinking about way too much. FWIW, I would concede that a discussion of Art may seem overy "intellectual," but I don't consider this discussion an intellectual analysis, beyond requisite analytical process in critique.

And, my apologies to those who may be disinclined toward a discussion of Art. But, I think there's room for it here.

[tree]

Indeed there is, that is the great beauty of the Mandolin Cafe. I often wish that popular culture aspired to the standards that exist here . . .

I probably chose my words poorly in my post above. I didn't really want to quell the discussion, I just wanted to comment in a different area. I LOVE the Lennon influence that shines through the White Album!

Lennon's early life was far from ideal, and when you combine that influence with the tremendous pressure of world fame that began in adolescence and continued throughout the rest of his life, those 2 factors were massive influences on Lennon's art. I think the "x-factor" was the creative collaboration with the other Lads and particularly with the genius of George Martin. My favorite of all of Lennon's work, by a long shot, was from his time with the Beatles.

[Duane Graves]

I went to see a friend. It was mid-summer 1967 or so. I remember he was in his little room and home playing this vinal LP and it was the Beatles. This was actually my first taste of their music. I was 16 then and so many years later I have always been a huge fan. Last Christmas someone gave me the book "John Lennon the life" by Philip Norman. I spent the month of January reading it (851 pages) and found out so many unique things about John. He was a genius and good fun but he could be a mean puppy that's for sure. In this book one story I will briefly relate to is found in Chapter 30 Starting Over (the story starts on p.790). John is apporaching his 40th birthday and wants to experience something double unique for it (unfortunately little did he know that later this same year....). It was June 4, 1980 and so his adventure led him from Newport on a fishing vessel to Bermuda with 4 or so people he never met and it was truly a John Lennonish adventure. Get the book and read it you'll like it. It is probably in libraries by now. Too many memories for me and yea, I can say I miss not hearing and seeing him on the TV, etc. Quite a character that's for sure.....

--Duane

[journeybear]

Did anyone (besides me) see the recent biopic, "Nowhere Boy?" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowhere_Boy)It depicts John's teen years, roughly from his uncle's death to just before The Beatles were formed. I found it very informative about this early period, and much of it seemed scrupulously attentive to factual detail. The filmmakers recreated one of The Quarrymen's first gigs, the one on the flatbed truck (many of you have seen the photo from that, I'm sure), and their first recording session, down to the 17s6d cost.

There was surprisingly little music in it, but what there was, was choice.

1) The Liverpool standard "Maggie Mae" (not Rod Stewart's song) that shows up as filler on "Let It Be" (and I always wondered why), is shown to be the first song John learns, taught him by his mother (on 4-string banjo), and the first song The Quarrymen perform live. (Some artistic liberties may have been taken here, but it's good storytelling.)

2) "Hello Little Girl," played by John into a home reel-to-reel recorder, as a demo. They never recorded this as far as I know, and I know of its existence only from my old Beatles songbook, which had several songs they never recorded, though some were by other groups.

3) "In Spite of All The Danger," the song shown in that recording session scene, which I had never heard before (though I may have - turns out it is in the Anthology), is a truly rare song, cowritten by Paul and George. Apparently there is only one record of it (the movie relates this part accurately, too, as price they paid didn't include making copies) which was passed around the members of The Quarrymen. Whoever had it last tried to sell it nearly 30 years ago, and Paul interceded. According to the wiki, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Spite_of_All_the_Danger) it is the most highly valued record in existence, estimated to be worth £100,000.

Anyway, it is well worth seeing, whether or not you are a big John Lennon fan. I thought I knew this story pretty well, but I learned more than I ever had. And overall it was well done.

[billkilpatrick]

i wonder when the magic started? - has any of them indicated a time or event when they realized how unique they were?

[Fretbear]

The Lennon/McCartney work is so strong because by himself Paul could be a little saccharine and by himself John could be a little rough and rude, but together they almost always managed to hit the Golden Mean.
Paul said that in all the years that they met to compose together weekly, they only failed to come up with a new song once.

[catmandu2]

Did anyone (besides me) see the recent biopic, "Nowhere Boy?" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowhere_Boy)


I'll have to keep my eyes open for that. The BBC Masterpiece Theatre "Lennon Naked" was a more interpretive presentation of drama focused on John's personal life and psychological disposition--adolescent development and alienation, ongoing relationship with his father, ambivalence toward his own family, and antagonistic personal and business relationships throughout. The film had moments of particular vividness in showing John's rougher edges--particularly around family life--wrestling with his personal demons.

[Duane Graves]

Hi, Bill. I have their anthology on DVD and I watch it often. Never gets boring. And what I gather is that they started to realize they were a unique group when they landed in NYC the very first time direct from London (64???). There was a very large gathering of screaming "American" fans there as is well documented and it seems to be here that, at least, Paul and Ringo see as the time when they just figured it out (as they look back). After all, it was a foreign land to them and they were not sure really how it would go. Exciting times. Glad I lived through it. Fun days.....wow!

Duane....

[journeybear]

BTW, Paul is the musical guest on SNL tonight. He was on the Jimmy Fallon show Thursday (bumping Robert Plant, so no MC :(), with an interesting choice of songs. He and Fallon did "Scrambled Eggs" - no, I mean "Yesterday" - no, I DO mean "Scrambled Eggs" (famously the original lyrics for this song, just a place-keeper in his mind for the melody), here fleshed out to full length (three verses, two bridges) by the show's writers - all about food (eat your heart out, Weird Al!). Hilarious, and even some nice harmonies by Fallon. And a solo version of "Here Today," Paul's paean to John. Very nicely done. I assume tonight's choices will be a bit more rocking. ;)

Oh, and I saw that too, cat - seemed to be more interpretive than factual, but interesting nonetheless. "Nowhere Boy" was a theatrical release, so it may be available on Netflix and such. I only knew about it because we got it at the cinema here. Otherwise, pretty sure it fell through the cracks here in the States.

[billkilpatrick]

speaking of photographs and demons ...

there's film footage of adolph hitler speaking at a rally in munich (i think) in which he raises his chin, rolls his eyes and stretches both hands up beside his face in what was reported to be a "rapturous" gesture. there's a point in the shea stadium concert when john, pale faced and sweating, copies this gesture ... and i believe ringo was quoted as saying that at some point in the concert, john went just a little nuts.

[catmandu2]

speaking of photographs and demons ...

there's film footage of adolph hitler speaking at a rally in munich (i think) in which he raises his chin, rolls his eyes and stretches both hands up beside his face in what was reported to be a "rapturous" gesture. there's a point in the shea stadium concert when john, pale faced and sweating, copies this gesture ... and i believe ringo was quoted as saying that at some point in the concert, john went just a little nuts.

Ha...I wouldn't be surprised. That mania is both seductive and accessible for some of us weak-minded fools.

Don't know what John's specific psychological assessments revealed (or whether he was ever assessed, beyond his associations with various gurus and therapy models), but many of the more creative types tend to be a little (or a lot) bipolar. I like what Leo Kottke said, "you create in mania; you edit when you're depressed." ;)

[journeybear]

Speaking of which ... somewhere in my download collection I have the 1965 Shea Stadium show, the Ed Sullivan appearances, and the rooftop concert. I forget where I found them (Sorry! Just google ...) but they were free.

[billkilpatrick]

... they started to realize they were a unique group when they landed in NYC the very first time direct from London (64???).

i'm surprised it's as late as that. anyone who's ever been in a band will know that there are moments when it's really, really good. but i would have thought that writing their own material, performing before the queen, etc., etc. would have made them consider themselves as more than just a good band.

[catmandu2]

i'm surprised it's as late as that. anyone who's ever been in a band will know that there are moments when it's really, really good. but i would have thought that writing their own material, performing before the queen, etc., etc. would have made them consider themselves as more than just a good band.

I have the feeling that they may have been more critical of themselves than was the rest of the world. They knew themselves for who they were, after all, not the image that we projected onto them. I'm sure they knew they had something great, but after all, they were building on what they thought was great: Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, et al.--so they may be more aware of their own aspects of non-originality (borrowing, stealing, continuing in the tradition, etc.) than the rest of us. Just a guess.

I could be wrong, but it seemed that they did possess some ability to cut through some amount of self-delusion. In one scene in the aforementioned drama, the John character replies to a patronizing admirer, "...and who am I? (after all)"

[journeybear]

I think they may have felt they were special before that moment cited (that's the kind of thing you and your bandmates whisper about with glints in your eyes when you write a great lyric or come up with a great chord progression or melody - hints of greatness, "we're onto something"), but the astounding level of acclaim they received when they arrived in America surely dispelled any doubt. Bear in mind, though, that this is the most scrutinized band in history, and all the times they have fielded questions repeatedly may have played havoc on their memories. They also may have wished not to appear self-aggrandizing. Hard to do that, when you are so revered by so many.

BTW, bill - pretty sure playing for the Queen came later than this.

[billkilpatrick]

cat - that's true. i remember seeing an interview with ringo where he said they all got together one morning, piled into the limo ... jaunty-jolly-ha-ha-ha ... asked where they were going (giggle-giggle) and was told they were going to meet elvis. ringo said that calmed them right down. "you're going to meet elvis ..." can you imagine?

[catmandu2]

Ha...before all the hubbub...while I'm sure they regarded themselves as a pretty dang hot band, they were, after all, mop-top kids. All kids have that narcissism, to some degree, and these kids were hot-shot rock n rollers. But, still kids.

I think they were pretty awestruck themselves when they hit NYC. This was just as the myth was being formed, btw. It was pretty advanced pop music, but yet to enjoy its maturation, greater experimentation, canonization..

[Bill Snyder]

I do not doubt for a second that John Lennon and the Beetles have had a profound effect on our culture and I also do not doubt that it has been less than positive. Just offering up my view and don't worry I will not say anything else on the subject.

[catmandu2]

I do not doubt for a second that John Lennon and the Beetles have had a profound effect on our culture and I also do not doubt that it has been less than positive. Just offering up my view and don't worry I will not say anything else on the subject.

Bill, I'm sure that others share your view. No point being reticent with it.

[mando_dan]

I do not doubt for a second that John Lennon and the Beetles have had a profound effect on our culture and I also do not doubt that it has been less than positive. Just offering up my view and don't worry I will not say anything else on the subject.

The decline of western civilization obviously started with Beatle boots.

[billkilpatrick]

The decline of western civilization obviously started with Beatle boots.

nah ... it was when hair started getting good in the back.

[Duane Graves]

I do not doubt for a second that John Lennon and the Beetles have had a profound effect on our culture and I also do not doubt that it has been less than positive. Just offering up my view and don't worry I will not say anything else on the subject.

Hi, Bill Snyder......it's Beatles with an "a"....(with a smile).....Duane

[Mandolin Mick]

I can say this as a former member of a Beatles tribute band, one who can play most of the bass, piano and guitar parts to the Beatles, one who made the pilgrimage to the Dakota, Abbey Road Studios, Apple, talked with Pete Best, etc.

I have great respect for John Lennon as a songwriter, musician, singer, etc. But, he should in no way be emulated or idolized. He was a very messed up man.

[journeybear]

nah ... it was when hair started getting good in the back.

Wasn't that from a Mothers Of Invention song, a couple of years later?


... it's Beatles with an "a" ...

Yeah, supposedly an homage to Holly Buddy And The Crickits ...


... He was a very messed up man.

No doubt. And if he had been my friend, there would have been several points of concern. But since I never met him, I don't really care what kind of person he was. But "as a songwriter, musician, singer, etc." - which is really the extent of my awareness of him, besides some biograpical factoids - he was aces.

[Mandolin Mick]

Agreed! :)

[Duane Graves]

Where will he fit in the musical archives of the future which includes the past....will we eventually line him up with a would-be-Mozart....is he a Pop-Beethoven....

[billkilpatrick]

Wasn't that from a Mothers Of Invention song, a couple of years later?

... "let's watch the water turn black."

all problems will be resolved with a de rigueur return to crew-cuts.

[Mandolin Mick]

"Don't eat that yellow snow ..." ;)

[tree]

Where will he fit in the musical archives of the future which includes the past....will we eventually line him up with a would-be-Mozart....is he a Pop-Beethoven....

I couldn't speculate on how The Beatles will be categorized in the future, but I have no doubt that people will still be listening to their music.

[journeybear]

Sir Paul kicked some butt on SNL. Four songs ("Jet," "Band On The Run," "A Day In The Life"/"Give Peace A Chance," and "Get Back" as the credits rolled), a few funny bits sprinkled throughout - quite a good show. The only soft spots were the vocals on the line: "Jet! Oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo" - those "oos" were off, each time ... and the band stayed pretty safe. But it was easy to see why those Beatles have been so welcome in the public consciousness for so long - darn good musicians and darn good showmen.

[Dan Hoover]

i didn't know that.i fell asleep around 10 last night,woke up at 4 as usual..have to look online for it...we went to see mccartney in concert this pass summer in Philly,great show..played the mando,he paid tribute to both john,george,and linda..played "jet"..one of my favorites,named my dog after it..very good band..
i think the thing about the beatles is just that,the songs..very pop,maybe the ultimate "pop" band??but they covered everything..blues,rock,country,comedy,acid,vaudevi lle,they might be the first grunge band? "helter skelter" but they did some of the most beloved,recorded music of all time.."something" "yesterday" "norwegian wood" we know them all..they'll always be around,like bach,mozart,gershwin,ect...
rambling,too much coffee...whats up w/crewcuts?? do we all have to get crewcuts here now? like the man say's "you can count me out":grin:

[journeybear]

The episode will repeat, of course, in a few weeks, and I will make mention of it over at the Mandolins On TV thread, even with no MC, owing to a great abiding interest in The Beatles among many members. Meanwhile, see what is available at hulu - the songs, for sure, but the availability of the skit appearances, including Paul Rudd's opening monologue, probably a bit more sketchy. So to speak.

As to crewcuts ... much as I'd like to think The Mop Tops ushered in a lot of cultural changes in several areas, including fashion, even tonsorial fashion, it seems they didn't change fashion forever - fashion is constantly changing - but did establish one lasting change in this area: choice. This was expressed in the long hair so prevalent among men in the years that followed, and continues today in the great variety of lengths considered acceptable, even baldness. Before they came along, hair length choices for men were rather limited, and had been for quite a while. These days, it seems anything goes.

Personally, I prefer their cultural effects in other areas. ;)

[billkilpatrick]

...whats up w/crewcuts?? do we all have to get crewcuts here now?

yep' ... "the steady advance of iron mandolinarian battalions" - lenin

"arrrrayuppp!" - sgt. bilko

[jaycat]

I can say this as a former member of a Beatles tribute band, . . . he should in no way be emulated or idolized. He was a very messed up man.

Huh? did I miss something in there about your qualifications in the field of behavioral health?

[Mandolin Mick]

What I meant was that I've been a Beatles head most of my life.

I have qualifications that I don't don't talk about here on the Cafe, but that has nothing to do with my comment. I'm a common sense person and am not enamored by Lennon's celebrity. To say he was messed up is to put it mildly. But, he was a musical genius, which is what this site is about anyway; music. :mandosmiley:

[catmandu2]

I'm sure they knew they had something great, but after all, they were building on what they thought was great: Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, et al.--so they may be more aware of their own aspects of non-originality (borrowing, stealing, continuing in the tradition, etc.) than the rest of us.

I'm looking at that Bill Monroe film by Steve Gebhardt...in which Ricky Skaggs notes the link to and influence of the "brothers" singing style--particularly that of the Everly Brothers and those that influenced them.

[jaycat]

Apropos of nothing, I would opine that I'm Down is Paul's best effort with the Beatles, and She's Leaving Home his worst. Only cause I'm Down just came on my Ipod . . .

[Ed Goist]

Apropos of nothing, I would opine that I'm Down is Paul's best effort with the Beatles ...snip...

Not Paperback Writer?!

[jaycat]

No, see here's the deal: Paul sounded best when he sounded most like John. So Helter Skelter comes in second.

[Ed Goist]

No, see here's the deal: Paul sounded best when he sounded most like John. So Helter Skelter comes in second.

Oh, I was talking about his bass...And, yes, Helter Skelter is awesome.

[jaycat]

Did Paul play bass on Dear Prudence, I wonder? That's a nice bass line.

[Mandolin Mick]

Yes, that's Paul.

[Mike Snyder]

One of the best bassists ever, hey Mick? I admire John most for his willingness to show us the ugly, angry side, as well as the peace and love stuff. And the screech at the end of Revolution. "Well, alriiiiiiight!" Kinda left me the impression that alright was one thing it wasn't going to be.

[mandolin tony]

lets remember,he was a man.he did not walk on water,but we still loved him.

[jaycat]

he did not walk on water,but we still loved him.

From a lyricist's point of view, he damned near walked on water. cf I Am The Walrus, Come Together. . . . Offhand I can't think of anyone else who made lengthy strings of non-sequiturs sound so poetic (ok, ok, there's Dylan) . . .

[Dan Hoover]

From a lyricist's point of view, he damned near walked on water. cf I Am The Walrus, Come Together. . . . Offhand I can't think of anyone else who made lengthy strings of non-sequiturs sound so poetic (ok, ok, there's Dylan) . . .
thats right...there is Dylan...:grin:..can't forget the man...

[catmandu2]

From a lyricist's point of view, he damned near walked on water. cf I Am The Walrus, Come Together. . . . Offhand I can't think of anyone else who made lengthy strings of non-sequiturs sound so poetic (ok, ok, there's Dylan) . . .

Excellent post, jay. Music is great, and mandolins are fun. But poetry is often sublime.

[Tom Wright]

Hard to compete with Dylan:

"You take just like a woman
And you ache just like a woman
And you make love just like a woman
But you break just like a little girl."

He did, though. One of my favorites:

"Here I stand head in hand
Turn my face to the wall
If she's gone I can't go on
Feelin' two-foot small

Everywhere people stare
Each and every day
I can see them laugh at me
And I hear them say

Hey you've got to hide your love away..."

Or:

"I'm so tired, I'm feeling so upset
Although I'm so tired, I'll have another cigarette
and curse Sir Walter Raleigh
He was such a stupid get.

You'd say I'm putting you on
but it's no joke, it's doing me harm
you know I can't sleep, I can't stop my brain
you know it's three weeks, I'm going insane
you know I'd give you everything I've got
for a little peace of mind..."

[jaycat]

"On the back of the fish truck that loads while my conscience explodes . . . "

[Dan Hoover]

"The Commander-in-Chief answers him while chasing a fly
Saying, "Death to all those who would whimper and cry"
And dropping a bar bell he points to the sky
Saying, "The sun's not yellow it's chicken."

[journeybear]

From a lyricist's point of view, he damned near walked on water. cf I Am The Walrus, Come Together. . . . Offhand I can't think of anyone else who made lengthy strings of non-sequiturs sound so poetic (ok, ok, there's Dylan) . . .

Wow - I would NEVER hold those songs up as examples of good lyric writing. They made me say "What?" back then, and still do today. I read in a subsequent interview that John was troubled by The Beatles' lyrics being taught in schools as poetry, and decided to write whatever popped into his head without regard for meaning, as a means of showing how absurd that process was. I can't tell whether he was successful in this, though I suspect not. Decades later a lot of people analyze songs like these and others - and some of Dylan's too - looking for profundity that just isn't there. It's gibberish. Catchy, but gibberish.

OK - standing off to one side to dodge the brickbats ... :popcorn:

[jaycat]

Decades later a lot of people analyze songs like these and others - and some of Dylan's too - looking for profundity that just isn't there. It's gibberish. Catchy, but gibberish.


I know that people have made an industry of analyzing lyrics, especially Dylan's. I wasn't suggesting they be parsed for profound meaning. Just sit back and let the magically euphonious free association wash over you . . .

Ever read Joyce? That's gibberish too. Wonderful, enchanting gibberish . . .

[journeybear]

Whew! Thanks for that. Frees up a LOT of time! :))

[catmandu2]

They made me say "What?"

Indeed. That is the beginning of discovery.

[journeybear]

Or, when accompanied by a resigned eye roll and shoulder shrug (new smiley?), the end of wondering. :confused:

[catmandu2]

Or, when accompanied by a resigned eye roll and shoulder shrug (new smiley?), the end of wondering. :confused:

It's my hope that folks retain a sense of wonderment.


Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play...

[jaycat]

Here's a way to apply the "Wonderment Test": ask yourself, could I have ever in a million years, dreamed up a line like "The harmonicas play the skeleton keys and the rain", or "Man, you should have seen them kicking Edgar Allan Poe?"

If the answer is no, just sit back in wonder. If the answer is yes, I'd like to meet you!

On the other hand, it's not a stretch to imagine oneself coming up with something like: "Oh! Darling, please believe me,
I'll never do you no harm." Not much to wonder at there.

[catmandu2]

Just sit back and let the magically euphonious free association wash over you . . .

Ever read Joyce? That's gibberish too. Wonderful, enchanting gibberish . . .


To reiterate jay's post: Again, I'm not sure that many of Lennon's lyrics were necessarily intended for "rational" consumption.



"What discursive symbolism--language in its literal use--does for our awareness of things (my italics)...the arts do for our awareness of subjective reality, feeling and emotion...

Wherever art takes a motif from actuality...it transforms it into a piece of imagination, and imbues its image with artistic vitality. The result is an impregnation of ordinary reality with the significance of created form. This is the subjectification of nature, that makes reality itself a symbol of life and feeling."


-S. Langer

[Rex Hart]

What about: "Thoughts meander like a restless wind inside a letter box, they tumble blindly as they make their way across the universe".

or...

"No one i think is in my tree, I think it must be high or low, that is, you can't, you know, tune in but it's all wrong..... that is, I think it's not too bad........

Brilliant!!

[catmandu2]

She's not a girl who misses much
Do do do do do do, oh yeah
She's well acquainted with the touch of the velvet hand
Like a lizard on a window pane

The man in the crowd with the multicoloured mirrors
On his hobnail boots
Lying with his eyes while his hands are busy
Working overtime
A soap impression of his wife which he ate
And donated to the National Trust

I need a fix 'cause I'm going down
Down to the bits that I left uptown
I need a fix cause I'm going down

[nick a]

What about: "Thoughts meander like a restless wind inside a letter box, they tumble blindly as they make their way across the universe".


Brilliant!!

dont forget
"limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns and calls me on and on across the universe."
i think that ranks up there with anything john has ever done....

and ive always been the most touched by his line he sung to sean:

"before you cross the street, take my hand, life is what happens to you while your busy making other plans"

considering the fate of his mother, that line absolutely stuns me.

[journeybear]

First of all, guys, there is a world of difference between wondering and wonderment. As in, I got tired of wondering what he meant, as it played havoc with my wonderment.

Secondly, admitting the words to "I Am The Walrus" were intentional nonsense pretty much settles it.

Thirdly, that is just one song - though it opened the doors for others to follow - and its nonsensical nature does not diminish the magnificence of the poetry in other songs. So please don't bother quoting them. I'm not disputing his ability to write intelligent, insightful, enlightening lyrics. Just saying in some songs - that one in particular, a lot of "Come Together," and others - his lyrics were a hodge podge of free association or whatever he happened to write at the moment. Could have used some definition and focus. That's all.

[Larry S Sherman]

She's not a girl who misses much
Do do do do do do, oh yeah
She's well acquainted with the touch of the velvet hand
Like a lizard on a window pane

The man in the crowd with the multicoloured mirrors
On his hobnail boots
Lying with his eyes while his hands are busy
Working overtime
A soap impression of his wife which he ate
And donated to the National Trust

I need a fix 'cause I'm going down
Down to the bits that I left uptown
I need a fix cause I'm going down

Yeah, that and Glass Onion are what I was thinking of. Abstract lyrics sometimes have more direct application to individuals because they can mean anything.

If you read the more recent Lennon bio there's actually a lot of explanations of song meanings-from Strawberry Fields to For the Benefit of Mr Kite.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Affiche_MrKite.jpg/220px-Affiche_MrKite.jpg

Larry

[jaycat]

I got tired of wondering what he meant, as it played havoc with my wonderment.

Remember those old Stones records, where lots of times you couldn't quite make out the lyrics? I think that mystery added to their appeal. You didn't have to know what every word meant.

I wonder if I should go out on a limb here and ask J.Bear if he mostly listens to bluegrass/country material? (Guess I just did.) Generally, they lyrics in those forms are pretty linear. But I will throw in the caveat that if you're gonna write abstract lyrics, you better be damned good at it. There aren't too many Lennons and Dylans out there.

[Larry S Sherman]

...his lyrics were a hodge podge of free association or whatever he happened to write at the moment. Could have used some definition and focus. That's all.

I know JBear listens to a lot of good music. But in regards to the quote above, I don't need a focus all the time, and wouldn't have wanted it any other way in "Come Together" or other Beatles classics. John was actually quite literal and stark in his solo work, which turns people off (though not me).

I have spent many happy hours reading William S Burroughs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_S._Burroughs) writing that was formed by cutting up sentences and reforming them...much like the Beatles and Hendrix did with audio tape. I love the new meanings that come from seemingly random jumbles of words. It's the magic of language.

Larry

[catmandu2]

You say tomato, I say dada...



I got tired of wondering what he meant, as it played havoc with my wonderment.


But what's wrong with something playing havoc with one's wonderment? It can make life interesting, no?


Ah böwakawa poussé, poussé ;)

[jaycat]

I don't need a focus all the time, and wouldn't have wanted it any other way in "Come Together" or other Beatles classics. John was actually quite literal and stark in his solo work, which turns people off (though not me).

I couldn't agree more with the above.


I have spent many happy hours reading William S Burroughs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_S._Burroughs)

My hat's off to you. Never could make it thru much of his stuff. Even with Henry Miller, a hero of mine, I have to skip over much of the free-associative passages.


It's the magic of language.



And what could be more magical? Unless it's music . . .

OK, I am done on this topic! I promise!

[journeybear]

I wonder if I should go out on a limb here and ask J.Bear if he mostly listens to bluegrass/country material? (Guess I just did.) Generally, they lyrics in those forms are pretty linear. But I will throw in the caveat that if you're gonna write abstract lyrics, you better be damned good at it. There aren't too many Lennons and Dylans out there.

No, I don't listen to a whole lot of bluegrass or country music, nor, lately, a whole lot of rock or pop either, which is what I've listened to (and still do) more than anything else. But when I do listen to music, I like to be able to understand what the songwriter meant. That doesn't mean I'm opposed to ambivalence, nor out-of-the-box coloring, but I do prefer clarity, conciseness, and cleverness - nothing better than a clever turn of phrase. Take the start of "Come Together," for instance. It starts with

"Here come old flat top/ He come groovin' up slowly"

OK, fine, this is an homage to Chuck Berry ("You Cant Catch Me," I believe) ...

"He got joo joo eyeball/ He one holy roller"

Wait - hold on a sec - where are we now? Did we take a left turn?

The rest of the song is like that, in and out of coherence. Some of it makes sense, some of it doesn't; there is one elegant turn of phrase ("Got to be good lookin' 'cause he's so hard to see" - now that is funny, insightful, and can be interpreted in more than one way), there is a lot of stuff that just baffles me ("He bag production/ He got walrus gumboot/ He got Ono sideboard/ He one spinal cracker"). It is frustrating to listen to a song, one you actually even like, and not know what it is about. I think I used to like this more when I smoked pot - stuff like this was so cool, so heavy, so far out, man. Read this analysis (http://beatlesnumber9.com/together.html) - it's even more gibberish than the song.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, not getting a tattoo. These days, I just want to understand what is being said or sung, or as Hendrix once put it, "I just want to see." And if I don't get it, it's likely I am going to be dismissive. After all, if I can write a song better than what I am listening to, I am not going to feel much of a need to listen to that for very long. I can amuse and/or confuse myself all on my own, thank you. ;)

My idea of a clever turn of phrase (besides the above, which is really one of Lennon's best, IMO)? Take Duke Ellington (lyrics may be by Bob Russell): "Do nothing till you hear it from me/ And you never will." That's the stuff. There's meaning and ambivalence, plenty of both, enough to take it one way or another, and keep one wondering but still "get it." In the lyrics of songs like "I Am The Walrus," much of "Come Together," much of "Happiness Is A Warm Gun" (feel free to cite more examples, you're just proving my point) I don't get there's that much to get.

I don't need a song to be literal or linear, just comprehensible. There is some beautiful poetry in bluegrass (simply stated, clear imagery, haunting emotions), there are clever turns of phrase in country (there may be entire books of nothing but song titles), but that doesn't necessarily say it all. Nor does randomly spewing words. But more often than not, I lean toward the former. Generally speaking, say what you mean and mean what you say. And if I ever do see a crabalocker fishwife, I'm going to kick her up the Eiffel Tower! Ho ho ho hee hee hee ha ha ha! :))


But what's wrong with something playing havoc with one's wonderment? It can make life interesting, no?

No. Annoying, yes.

[catmandu2]

No. Annoying, yes.

Evocation goes by many names -- for you, annoyance. But even annoyance can be good -- look at all the research it compelled from you.

[jaycat]

After all, if I can write a song better than what I am listening to, I am not going to feel much of a need to listen to that for very long. \

OK, I said I would shut up, but you have thrown down the gauntlet! Can we get a link to whatever you've written that's "better" than Come Together?

Can't wait to hear it!

[journeybear]

Don't think I said "Come Together" specifically, or The Beatles in general (I have a bigger problem with "I Am The Walrus," anyway), But yes, that is my general rule of thumb. That is what keeps my songwriting so good - standards. Now, I know it is considered unseemly to not present oneself humbly, and I think by and large that is a good way to be. But if you have done something you are proud of, and merits such esteem, then by all means, be proud.

That said, I regret my recorded output exists mostly on such antiquated technologies as tape and vinyl. Currently there is but one of my compositions available on youtube, which I present for your enjoyment. Notice there is not one word which defies nor even requires explanation. That is something that cannot be said about "I Am The Walrus."


k1s52YqFZVQ


There is also the following, an excerpt from a composition called "Swing Forward."


How did we ever get here? This may be the farthest OT a thread has ever gotten, especially in such short steps. But hey - at least we finally got some mandolin content! ;)

[DoubleG]

I don't know much about all the philosophical meanderings I've enjoyed reading on this post about John. All I know is that when I was ten years old I saw the Beatles do the Ed Sullivan Show and from that moment on, don't ask me why, but life changed. I wanted a guitar and I wanted to do what they were doing. (My dad wanted me to play the accordion - and I should have done that too!). I got the Beatles fake books and played and sang them in my room until my fingers bleed. Schoolwork went out the window. I could only focus on music. Wrote songs, got into bands, and being a musician was what I was steering towards.

Funny how life works out but I never got there. Went to college, fell in love, got married, had a family, took care of my wife's and my parents, regular life stuff - but music is still part of my life. Not just listening to it but playing it. Only regret is that I wish I could have seen past the Pop and found the Bluegrass stuff a little earlier on. I like all kinds of music (still have an aversion to Polka's - that accordion thing I guess). Few of the people I know play musical instruments, but I still do. And now, I found the Mandolin and I really like the catalog of music that goes with it. Plan is to go to some small Festivals and local Jams starting with the Gardner Winter Music Festival in Morgantown W. VA in February.

So, on to "Something New". The Dream's not over for a lot of us still playing music who were inspired to pursue it by John and his mates. Thanks John, music continues to enrich my life and you ignited my interest in it all those years ago. What a wonderful ride it was. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Smw33PKJA

[mando_dan]

Huh? did I miss something in there about your qualifications in the field of behavioral health?

Unfortunately MandolinMick is dead on, Mr. Lennon had a lot of problems that don't take a psychologist to recognize. I won't enumerate them here, but any decent bio will provide some startling insight into Lennon's personal life. This said in full recognition of musical genius which I in way want to detract from.

[Lee Callicutt]

I was hooked from the first, "She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah," but then I'm a sucker for the Bauhaus, "less is more," school of thought.

[catmandu2]

I was hooked from the first, "She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah," but then I'm a sucker for the Bauhaus, "less is more," school of thought.

I don't suppose this is a popular view over on the rococo banjo HO!

(Hiya Lee ;) )

[catmandu2]

That is what keeps my songwriting so good - standards.

In the words of Dr. Eugene Strickland: I must say, your assertion brought a chortle of wry amusement to my lips.

[Duane Graves]

"As usual, there is a great woman behind every idiot." -John Lennon

"Nobody controls me. I'm uncontrollable. The only one who can control me is me, and that's just barely possible." -John Lennon

"I am going into an unknown future, but I'm still all here, and still while there's life, there's hope." -John Lennon (December 1980)

"I don't believe in killing whatever the reason!" -John Lennon

"I consider that my work won't be finished until I'm dead and buried, and I hope that's a long long time." -John Lennon, Dec. 1980

"One of my great memories of John is from when we were having some argument. I was disagreeing and we were calling each other names. We let it settle for a second and then he lowered his glasses and he said: "It's only me." And then he put his glasses back on again. To me, that was John. Those were the moments when I actually saw him without the facade, the armor, which I loved as well, like anyone else. It was a beautiful suit of armor. But it was wonderful when he let the visor down and you'd just see the John Lennon that he was frightened to reveal to the world." -Paul McCartney (on John Lennon)

In the town where I was born
Lived a man who sailed to sea
And he told us of his life
In the land of submarines
So we sailed up to the sun
Till we found the sea of green
And we lived beneath the waves
In our yellow submarine

Duane.......