Alchemy Acoustic Labs mod's process

[drewgrass]

has anyone heard of this had it done etc. they do mandolin's guitar's and fiddles. It's $600.00 to have done but they have a volume increase of 3-6db and do all kinds of test. the guy who came up with it has been on the cover of wired magazine and is some kind of super genius. here is a interview with him. seems like a cool concept. http://alchemyacousticlabs.com/the-process/interview-with-frank-sanns/

[MikeEdgerton]

Ok, shoot me now.

[drewgrass]

Ok, shoot me now.

i know but i have heard some clips and it sounds good. snake oil right. i talked to them yesterday. but who knows

[foldedpath]

Or, here's a wild thought... you could just buy an instrument that you're happy with, and that doesn't need "fixin'".

[MikeEdgerton]

Read this (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?67950-Has-the-Secret-Been-Discovered-to-Surpass-the-Stradivarius) thread. Just change the names and the discussion will be similar.

[Markus]

Or, here's a wild thought... you could just buy an instrument that you're happy with, and that doesn't need "fixin'".

I agree. $500 is not something someone would spend on an instrument that didn't cost quite a few thousand already ... and why you'd buy a mandolin that cost $5k or well upward and didn't tickle your pickle I'll never understand.

At the same price for improvement, you could have a lot of work done on the mandolin by a luthier that would for sure improve playability and could improve volume and tone [improved bridge or fit, etc].

And that's not even getting into whether what this process does is something we would desire on a mandolin.

Even if we leave out whether this process works, I have yet to be convinced this yields a better mandolin.

[Shelagh Moore]

Is there something in the water at the moment...?

[foldedpath]

It's a waxing crescent moon, so it can't be that. On the other hand, we're getting close to the solstice. Could be cabin fever setting in...

[Pete Summers]

Like old soldiers, old myths never die. Unfortunately, they never fade away either.

[JEStanek]

I'm not making any claims about how you should spend your money but for mine, Mandolin Symposium is only a couple more hundred dollars than these treatments. I bet I know which will give me more noticeable differences before and after.

Jamie

[drewgrass]

sorry just read about it and asked. we are all trying to play better sound better do better.

[allenhopkins]

It's a waxing crescent moon...

What kinda wax are you using? I hear the right kind can increase the volume and tone of your mandolin 78.4%.

But seriously folks, let's not pummel Drewgrass. As he said, we're all looking to get the best we can out of our mandolins. And it's tempting to think that there's some magic treatment that'll take our sub-$1K instrument into a "higher sound bracket."

Talented people have been building mandolins, and other stringed instruments, for a millennium, and in that period probably every permutation of materials, design, techniques, finishes, etc. has been tried by someone. Yet we keep trying to invent a rounder wheel. Just as Dumbo grasped his "magic" feather, we try to get our eight-stringed elephant to fly.

Almost certainly, the folks marketing these processes think they do work. Some will try them and hear a difference, which may be "wishful hearing" or not. Big Joe's testing a new entry into the field in another thread. I do agree, the best way to get a mandolin that sounds the way you want it, is to buy that mandolin -- rather than "marrying someone, hoping to change them." Generally doesn't turn out that way.

[Markus]

But seriously folks, let's not pummel Drewgrass. As he said, we're all looking to get the best we can out of our mandolins. And it's tempting to think that there's some magic treatment that'll take our sub-$1K instrument into a "higher sound bracket."

You are completely correct about that, just as we would all like to think we're good looking and extremely talented mandolin players.

My wife is kind, but no liar :)

Dewgrass, you jumped on a hot topic ... don't take it personally - it certainly wasn't meant that way.

[Chuck Naill]

Ok, shoot me now.

Is it okay if I comment about this new procedure? :grin::grin::grin:

[JEStanek]

Carry on with the discussion. I think we have 4 products or processes under discussion now that you can do to your instrument being discussed. There are many options available to you to select from and use.

Jamie

[Glassweb]

Ok, shoot me now.

Mike, I'm with you at ten paces!

[NoNickel]

I wonder if my mandolin still thinks it's a tree?

[MikeEdgerton]

Is it okay if I comment about this new procedure? :grin::grin::grin:

Have at it.

[Alchemy Acoustic Labs]

Hi guys.

I don't know the rules here regarding a company representative "joining the fray". They seem to vary from forum to forum. Our in-house company rule is that we don't go on forums 'seeding' or spamming with sales info about our products. But if someone starts a thread, (and they typically go precisely the same way this one has gone so far), if it's appropriate, I step in and offer to answer what questions that I can.

On some forums, that's welcomed. On others, it's not without paying to be a sponsor. So if a moderator wants to green or red light my participation in this thread - please let me know if it's cool or not before I comment or reply specifically to anyone.

Thanks.

[mrmando]

Hi Scot. I'm not a moderator and it's not my call, but FWIW, Masterson is holding forth on his process in another thread (one that he started) ... so I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be allowed to do the same here.

[Alchemy Acoustic Labs]

Thanks mrmando,

Our product is very different from his. So is our marketing philosophy. :) You might not know it from comparing the two websites, but for what it's worth, ours was around long before that one. We've been testing and charting our processes, working with luthiers, manufacturers and artists for quite some time. We don't claim that our process is for everyone, or works wonders on solid bodied electrics (or dining room tables for that matter), but we've had an extremely high level of customer satisfaction thus far from clients who have had the process done on their acoustic guitars, mandolins and fiddles.

That's as far as I'll go until I get moderator approval.

[Scott Tichenor]

Hi guys.

I don't know the rules here regarding a company representative "joining the fray". They seem to vary from forum to forum. Our in-house company rule is that we don't go on forums 'seeding' or spamming with sales info about our products. But if someone starts a thread, (and they typically go precisely the same way this one has gone so far), if it's appropriate, I step in and offer to answer what questions that I can.

On some forums, that's welcomed. On others, it's not without paying to be a sponsor. So if a moderator wants to green or red light my participation in this thread - please let me know if it's cool or not before I comment or reply specifically to anyone.

Thanks.

Your participation is welcome and the expectations are covered in the posting guidelines:

- Vendors: for the good of our community we ask that all vendors of mandolin/music related products/services exercise good faith in clearly identifying themselves. Vendor participation is welcome and valued, and we expect you to be involved in discussions of your products. Visitors to the site arrive from all over the world and possess widely varying amounts of knowledge, expertise and experience with our subject matter. This is an international web site for mandolin, not a country-specific web site. All visitors should be able to clearly discern a business relationship at all times in discussions of products sold in the retail market.

and

- Refrain from using the message board as a point of selling items to others or for the purpose of discussing or linking to items you are selling. Please limit selling activities to the Classifieds section of this web site or other external locations.

That said, I appreciate your approach and respect for different communities and what is permitted. While most vendor participation is not an issue here, there are those with heavy handed approaches, particularly of late. It's a gray area and trust that our moderators keep tabs on these discussions and others.

[mrmando]

Now that we're all official-like, my first question for Scot: How do you know your process is different from Masterson's, when the processes are proprietary and neither of you will describe them in specific terms?

[Big Joe]

Yeah... what he said (MrMando) :) .

Any mandolin at any price range from nearly any builder can be optimized for tone and playability by a good luthier who specializes in that aspect of lutherie. It is not magic or artificial. It is simply understanding what each part does in concert with the rest of the parts and how to get each part to work best with each other. When perfectly set up and any issues dealt with properly the instrument can be at its best. This is not permanent either since wood does what wood does and needs adjustment occasionally. How often depends upon each piece of wood and the particular instrument. Just like you and I are pretty much the same, only different, instruments are the same way and each needs care when it does and cannot be compared to another instrument. Even one built by the same builder in the same way at the same time. They need adjusting when they need adjusting.

The artificial processes I am familiar with can be an asset to an instrument for what that device is designed to do. However, they cannot replace having an instrument optimized by a good luthier. Any instrument no matter how expensive or inexpensive can be helped by a good luthier who specializes in that aspect. Building is one specialty and setup is another. They do not always go together. This is particularly true in factory settings where there is a budget to meet for any instrument to hit a price point. In addition, they don't know and deal with a particular end user directly so the setup and work is pretty generic at best. The cost of the instrument would be much higher if the factory spent the money and time for that degree of setup and optimizing for each customer. It is much less expensive to purchase a mandolin and have it prepared properly by a good luthier right away. It will not take anything away from what you hear, but will only improve it and make it play much better. This may seem counterproductive, but is actually cheaper than buying one ready to go and it can be made to play perfectly for you.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Spot on Joe !. We all know of guys who tune cars right out of the showroom. You'd thnk that a brand new car was optimised for max.performance from the off,but let one of these auto-wizzards have it for a few days & you'll soon know the difference.It's as Joe says,it's 'knowing what to do' & understanding what each part does i relationship to the rest of it.
I see no reason why an expert in doing this for musical instruments shouldn't be just as effective in what they do,but just 'how effective' & what the change will be,will vary from instrument to instrument. I can imagine that a mid-range priced instrument would benefit more than a high end instrument,but you'd have to try it to find out,
Ivan

[MandoNicity]

:popcorn:


JR

[Alchemy Acoustic Labs]

Okay, thanks for the green light. Pretty busy this time of year, bit I will try to take the path that we've taken before. I'll go back and respond to questions or statements that I think we can answer or speak to. As with any other modification to any instrument, you get a range of responses and critics as well as fans and converts. Often the critics and naysayers just offhandedly dismiss the entire idea of this type of thing without ever experiencing it firsthand. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and clearly as a player, I understand that it's ludicrous to expect people to pay $699 before they develop an opinion about a product. But, in reality - this is indeed one of those things you need to experience in person to truly appreciate the results. Not just as a marketing statement, but also as a statement of physical fact because it is a tactile difference as well as an acoustic one and affects each instrument differently.

Again, I understand this type of thing is not for everyone. I won't defend a "need" for this process, but it absolutely does make a measurable, permanent difference in the instrument's sound. Whether that difference is something universally positive, or "better" or necessary is of course, completely up to the player and the instrument.

[Alchemy Acoustic Labs]

has anyone heard of this had it done etc. they do mandolin's guitar's and fiddles. It's $600.00 to have done but they have a volume increase of 3-6db and do all kinds of test. the guy who came up with it has been on the cover of wired magazine and is some kind of super genius. here is a interview with him. seems like a cool concept. http://alchemyacousticlabs.com/the-process/interview-with-frank-sanns/

In the spirit of full transparent disclosure, yes, Frank Sanns has been featured in "Wired", and many other tech magazines over the years. He has several patents to his name from his years with a major, multi-national chemical company. But he was on the cover of the Wall Street Journal, not Wired. And it was not for his work with this AO1 process (yet) He is a legitimate research scientist with vast experience in product development, and has been working with polymers for decades. Wood is a natural polymer. His A01 process is as tested and researched and measurable (over time) as we can make it. We're charting instruments that have been processed over 4 years ago to measure long-term effects.

[Alchemy Acoustic Labs]

Or, here's a wild thought... you could just buy an instrument that you're happy with, and that doesn't need "fixin'".

Yep. It doesn't take long for this response to show up in any discussion of almost any modifications to any instrument in search of improvements in sound. And it's a fair, purist POV that I actually share, for the most part. But let me counter with a couple points:

1. No matter how great, perfectly master-crafted and well-built an instrument is, do you think it sounds better the day it is finished or after say, 15-75 years of playing and care? I know it's not the same for mandos as say - Martin dreads, but be fair - is it a pretty safe generalization to make that -all other things being equal - over 90% of players would prefer the sound/feel of a well-played, well-aged instrument over the same instrument new? If the consensus is yes, that many acoustic, wood, soundboard-based instruments sound better when they're well-aged, then wouldn't something that achieved those same physical effects, but in a controlled, responsible, measurable way - INSTANTLY - be a viable option for some players?

2. Luthiers improve and hone their craft all the time. This doesn't get said out loud much but if you go back a ways, we can find a time when even Jean Larrivvee and Dana Bourgeois [insert your favorite builder here] instruments were not as great as they eventually got to after more experience. Generally speaking, they make better and better instruments as they get better and better at their craft. They also employ tricks, tools, processes, skills, secrets and techniques that they believe make their instruments better. Breedlove sends their well-made instruments out with Bridge Doctors installed. Does that mean their instruments "don't sound good" without them or need them for "fixin'"? No, it means that they've found that a certain process or tool just makes them that much better. Just because something sounds fantastic, doesn't mean they can't be better. The constant striving for "better" is what drives many instrument makers. Our process is a tool like any other. Thus far, we've had about as many luthiers and manufacturers interested in our process as we've had ones that are dismissive of it.

[Alchemy Acoustic Labs]

I agree. $500 is not something someone would spend on an instrument that didn't cost quite a few thousand already ... and why you'd buy a mandolin that cost $5k or well upward and didn't tickle your pickle I'll never understand.

At the same price for improvement, you could have a lot of work done on the mandolin by a luthier that would for sure improve playability and could improve volume and tone [improved bridge or fit, etc].

And that's not even getting into whether what this process does is something we would desire on a mandolin.

Even if we leave out whether this process works, I have yet to be convinced this yields a better mandolin.

This is a fantastic point. It's possible the results of our process are in fact, NOT desirable for some players or possibly, some entire styles of instruments. Guitarists have LOVED the results of what our process does.

I'll be honest. I am not a Mando player. We've done several mandolins and have had very similar reactions from the players as we've had with guitars. Players have described their post processed mandos as having "more chop". But OUR process is not a one-size-fits-all, make-everything-better magic wunderdrug. We analyze the instrument that is being processed EXTENSIVELY before we do it and have to approach mandolins and fiddles differently than we do guitars. We can control and alter the results of our process (within limits) based on desired results. We're working with fiddle players and mandolin players to see what they want out of their instrument, and are modifying our process to better achieve those goals.

[Alchemy Acoustic Labs]

I'm not making any claims about how you should spend your money but for mine, Mandolin Symposium is only a couple more hundred dollars than these treatments. I bet I know which will give me more noticeable differences before and after.

Jamie

Not an apples to apples bet, but one that I'd be intrigued to explore. :) Several of our guitar customers go "the full Monty" with their instruments. Parabolic bracing, Bridge Doctor, surgical brace shaving as well as our process. I don't think one negates the need or the results of another. Not something every instrument would need or benefit from, but I've heard a few that have undergone astounding transformations into even more amazing instruments than they started out as.

[Alchemy Acoustic Labs]

I wonder if my mandolin still thinks it's a tree?

It depends on how old it is, and/or whether we've processed it or not. :) But seriously, NoNickel is refering to an analogy that we use in our marketing that is obviously cute, but it's also fairly accurate if you go listen to how our inventor explains it. You can't just "kiln dry" the tree out of wood. It has to happen at a molecular level. That's what aging combined with playing (Playing focuses tensions across and puts the soundboard in specific stress from vibrating the strings) does over time. That's what we do over a much shorter time.

[Alchemy Acoustic Labs]

Now that we're all official-like, my first question for Scot: How do you know your process is different from Masterson's, when the processes are proprietary and neither of you will describe them in specific terms?

Great question. Your point is sound. Technically - I don't. But here's how I draw my conclusion:

1. Based on what I know about our process, which is proprietary and is in patent-approval process right now and we hope to have an answer back very soon, I know that the chances that anyone else in the world is doing exactly what we are doing are astronomical, mathematically. Think "recipe" more than physics. The science/physics of what we do already exists (as all science does) well before we used it to do what we are doing. Here's a shock - it is just as easy using the basic science of our process to turn an instrument's physical structure into mush that sounds like cardboard as it is to optimize its sound producing qualities. When we're able to disclose what we're doing, we're still not going to share our specific "recipe" with the public. That's our product and years of analysis and extremely careful and responsible lab-controlled research all go into making our process safe as well as effective.

2. When Mr. Masterson went live with his "unique" website and product launch, he contacted me privately via the message board of another forum and discussed some aspects of his and our products with me. (I still have the messages) It would not be prudent or kind to discuss what was said in detail or publicly say much about what I think of his company/product, but based on what we discussed, I am overwhelmingly positive that our processes are on different paths.