Regal Ultra Grand

[nmiller]

I recently won a Regal Ultra Grand mandolin on Ebay, and I can't seem to find out much about it. It needs a neck set (there's significant heel separation), but otherwise it's very clean and all original. I'd appreciate any info you have on it (especially when this model was made).


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[DerTiefster]

Is this helpful? It's not -exactly- the same item, but looks a lot like it. Your pick-guard is plainer, for instance.

http://www.musicaviva.com/instruments/gallery/display.html?serienr=16373

I had wondered who were the folks so interested in that nicely appointed Regal. You are apparently at least one of them.

[mrmando]

I'm gonna guess late 1940s, assuming everything on it is original. Designer seems to have been aware of Martin's Style 20 and Style 30, and maybe D'Angelico as well. Probably the most promising-looking Regal-branded instrument I've ever seen.

[nmiller]

Is this helpful? It's not -exactly- the same item, but looks a lot like it.

I had wondered who were the folks so interested in that nicely appointed Regal. You are apparently at least one of them.

Mine is a carved-top, and the one you linked to looks like an older bent-top, but it could be a predecessor model.

I think Regals are underrated - their high-end instruments often have great sounds, but they're hard to find in good condition.


I'm gonna guess late 1940s, assuming everything on it is original. Designer seems to have been aware of Martin's Style 20 and Style 30, and maybe D'Angelico as well. Probably the most promising-looking Regal-branded instrument I've ever seen.

I was thinking '30s or '40s - I don't recall seeing a bakelite pickguard after WWII, but I'm no expert. I was actually considering a Martin 20, but this seems like a good substitute at a fraction of the price.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm gonna guess late 1940s, assuming everything on it is original. Designer seems to have been aware of Martin's Style 20 and Style 30, and maybe D'Angelico as well. Probably the most promising-looking Regal-branded instrument I've ever seen.

I agree that it's the most promising-looking Regal-branded instrument I've ever seen as well but I think it's probably 30's and was probably built for Regal not necessarily by Regal. I've never seen another Regal instrument that was that sort of quality. That tailpiece seems to hearken back to the L&H days a bit as well. This might be from the Tonk Bros. days at Regal, that's just speculation.

[Jim Garber]

This is very similar to B&D mandolins -- some with reverse scroll with carved tops that were very likely made by Regal under the B&D label. Like this Sultana Grand (http://www.themusicemporium.com/product-detail/product/bacon-day-sultana-grand-mandolin.html) at Music Emporium.

I have some catalog pages of these mandolins. I will try to post them later.

[MikeEdgerton]

The years of the catalog pages wll be interesting.

[nmiller]

I was just contacted by a guy who's writing a book about the history of Regal; he wants to photograph my mandolin for the book, though I'll probably get the mandolin after his manuscript is due to the publisher. I asked him whether Regal made the mandolin themselves and when, and he replied:


as far as details of manufacture, etc, it's really hard with regal instruments to pin down those details unless there is a catalogue listing that matches the specific instrument (and i havent seen one). without that, it's all guess work and conjecture (re: the mando cafe crew). folks like to say anything high end sold by regal wasnt built by them, but, that's i think because alot of the chicago manufacturers built for each other, regal made alot of low end stuff making folks think they couldnt make high end instruments and because regal isnt martin or gibson the mando snobs think that the Regal-made high end instruments couldnt be any good.

He then pointed me to the same Sultana Grand that Jim mentioned.


the Sultana Grand was listed for sale by Bacon between about 1936-1939. the fingerboard on your mandolin was used by Regal during that time period but more specifically on mandolins made after the War, so, the body is probably from 1939, but the fingerboard might be from the late 1940s/early 1950s and original equiptment when the instrument was sold or a "redo" when the mando was sent back the factory for repair. i'd have to see the instrument in person to better figure this out.

[Jim Garber]

The years of the catalog pages wll be interesting.

The copies I have were labelled 1936. They were of the Bacon Sultana, Ramona and Senorita styles.

[MikeEdgerton]

There are guitars (at least) in Hubert's Washburn book for the 1935-39 era that look similar in construction. Perhaps these were the golden years at Regal.

[keef]

There are guitars (at least) in Hubert's Washburn book for the 1935-39 era that look similar in construction. Perhaps these were the golden years at Regal.

Possibly, and that also makes sense if you take into account that Regal likely ended up with part of the former L&H craftsmen after JR Stewart's bankruptcy.

[MikeEdgerton]

Possibly, and that also makes sense if you take into account that Regal likely ended up with part of the former L&H craftsmen after JR Stewart's bankruptcy.

You'd have to assume they probably ended up with shop equipment, forms, and templates as well. Good to see you Hubert.

For those not familiar with Hubert's book, it's titled "Washburn Prewar Instrument Styles (http://www.amazon.com/Washburn-Prewar-Instrument-Styles-Pleijsier/dp/157424227X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292078826&sr=8-3)" and is available on Amazon as well as other places. It has become my go to resource for information on anything that might have possibly been related to Lyon and Healy and the companies that it spawned.

[Jim Garber]

It must be time to resurrect this thread from over 7 years ago. After near misses on similar ones over the years, I finally bagged one of these Regal oddballs. It seems like most of them were intended to have the B&D mark on them but the one that Noah Miller (the OP) got back in 2010 was Regal branded. Same with the one I just won but mine has the Kordick-designed reverse scroll (lumpish, eh?). Noah did get the case intended for that model as you can see from his pics. So did I.

One other major difference is that Noah's has an extended fret board whereas this one does not. I think I would agree that it is possible that this was a way for Regal to use up extra factory parts that were just lying around.

Similar to his, mine also has a neck separation. It also has a crystallized fancy pickguard. It is a shame because it has that castle (I think) engraved on it. There is a clear photo of that castle on the 1937 B&D Sultana grand mandolin catalog photo in Bob Carlin's Regal book, page 80. Hopefully there aren't too many other issues with it.

I will post some additional photos when it arrives, probably next week.

[MikeEdgerton]

Let me just jump in here and say the comments I made above were before Bob Carlin's Regal book was printed. Bob's Regal Musical Instruments 1895-1955 (https://www.amazon.com/Regal-Musical-Instruments-Bob-Carlin/dp/1574242733/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1516935459&sr=8-1&keywords=bob+carlin+regal) was truly an eye opening view into what Regal could actually do. Highly recommended. I now believe these were built by Regal.

Congratulations Jim!

[brunello97]

Nice score, Jim. Smurf's Up!

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Actually, I looked for the publishing date on the Carlon book and could not find it tho I did see that Bob dated his intro 12/10, the same as this thread. Here's page 80 pf the B&D Sultana pickguard. None of the real-life examples had their pickguard (including the gorgeous one at The Music Emporium) -- probably all those crystallized and distintegrated.

[brunello97]

Cooliso. Minarets or early ICBMs?

Mick

[MikeEdgerton]

I looked for the same publication date and when I saw the date of his comments I assumed they had to be done well before publication. Hubert's book and Carlin's book were both game changers.

[Jim Garber]

Amazon says Bob's book was published November 11, 2011.

[MikeEdgerton]

It would make sense if he was talking to the OP about the original mandolin when this thread was first posted.

[allenhopkins]

Carlin's 2011 book describes the two-point "No. 255 'Ultra Grand'" as "recently surfaced," making it likely he was talking about OP's instrument. He shows (p. 89) a page from Regal's 1939 catalog, depicting the No. 255, price $50, but without the "Ultra Grand" headstock inlay.

There's extensive color pix of the "modified Kordick shape" reverse scroll "Sultana Grand" mandolin (pp. 82-3), which seems identical to Jim G's except for the headstock inlay -- "Sultana" instead of "Ultra." Is it that the "Sultana" designation went with the Regal-made instruments sold through Bacon & Day (B & D), while "Ultra" were the ones sold under the Regal name?

[Jim Garber]

I am fairly convinced that these Ultra Grand mandolins were constructed of parts laying around the factory. The headstock of mine is the same as the B&D Sultana but has a white overlay to where B&D would appear. The Ultra is pretty clever, too, since Sultana has all the letters except for the R. Maybe they used that R in the same typeface on another instrument or just had someone make that one letter. And mine has white block inlays like the B&D Sultana only without the inscribing. But it does have a Sultana pickguard and a Washburn tailpiece.

The seller never showed the back of the headstock but I assume that it would have nickel tuners not as fancy as the Sultana.

[allenhopkins]

...The Ultra is pretty clever, too, since Sultana has all the letters except for the R. Maybe they used that R in the same typeface on another instrument or just had someone make that one letter...

My wife's friend Cookie, the theatrical architect, had a help-pay-the-rent job at an Egyptian restaurant in NYCity. (I didn't know there were Egyptian restaurants, but what the heck, it's NYCity.)

Anyway, the restaurant was called At Our Place, which I thought was an odd name, and not particularly Egyptian. Cookie told us that previous owners called it Cleopatra, and the new owners wanted to re-name it, but save and re-use the marquee letters outside. I looked closely at the new lettering, and sure enough, the "U" was slightly smaller than the other letters.

End of hijack.

[William Smith]

Very Nice indeed, I love those obscure 20's-30's oddities! GREAT SCORE, Love it. Did ya score her on Evilbay?

[Jim Garber]

My wife's friend Cookie, the theatrical architect, had a help-pay-the-rent job at an Egyptian restaurant in NYCity. (I didn't know there were Egyptian restaurants, but what the heck, it's NYCity.)

Anyway, the restaurant was called At Our Place, which I thought was an odd name, and not particularly Egyptian. Cookie told us that previous owners called it Cleopatra, and the new owners wanted to re-name it, but save and re-use the marquee letters outside. I looked closely at the new lettering, and sure enough, the "U" was slightly smaller than the other letters.

End of hijack.

Not yet. That sounds really familiar. When and where was that? I think I used to eat there or pass by it.

[Jim Garber]

Very Nice indeed, I love those obscure 20's-30's oddities! GREAT SCORE, Love it. Did ya score her on Evilbay?

Yes, indeedy! I actually was emailing with one place years ago about a B&D Sultana and was ready to buy it but when the salesguy looked for it he cound that someone bought it minutes before. I wasn't going to spend a bunch on this because I figure that I needed to leave a few hundred dollars for repair costs and if I wanted to restore or repro that pickguard. Also, there might be other issues that I don't yet know about. I got it for a good price, I think. The case itself is quite nice. A friend wondered if it was the same as an F-4 style case. I doubt it but it looks like this mandolin is wider and probably a different proportion. His theory was that Regal would just buy an existing case but I would imagine that in those days a handful of custom cases could be bought wholesale by a big company to sell a higher end product.

Here is a good shot of a B&D case which looks similar to the one that mine will come in.

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[William Smith]

That case pictured is made for your mando! That is so KOOL, That is no standard Gieb for an F-4/5 etc...

[Jim Garber]

Yes, I sent my friend this side by side comparison photo.

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There was no close full photo of the case on the eBay auction for the Ultra Grand, but there was this photo of the case open and one of the lock area. Except for the area that got abraded by the pickguard, the interior looks like that crinkled velour stuff.

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[Jim Garber]

This got here very quickly through USPS from Chicago shipped out on Friday. Pretty amazing.

So here are some photos. I will see what my luthier finds. The neck joint is separated. I am not sure what kind of neck joint there is but it does seem that this is the weak point for these mandolins.

In any case, I imagine that the mandolin would probably sound better with a quality modern ebony adjustable bridge like a Cumberland Acoustic or equivalent. I will keep the original bridge but it ooks kind of funky and possibly less compensated.

[Jim Garber]

The case is in amazing condition except for the inside wear from the pickguard area of the inside top. It still has the original key with the original envelope. This is a Geib case made specifically for these Regal and B&D mandolins.

[MikeEdgerton]

That looks great. Get er done.

[pops1]

Nice Jim, will be interesting to hear what you think of it when it is playable.

[Jim Garber]

Aye, aye, Captain!

Aside from the crystallized pickguard it looks like it is missing one hex tuner bushing. Looks like I can get them from stewmac (http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/Tuning_Machines/Tuner_Parts/3_8_Conversion_Tuner_Bushing.html).

Some interesting specs:

Scale length: 13-3/4"
Body Depth: 2-3/16"
Nut width: 1-3/16"

[allenhopkins]

Not yet. That sounds really familiar. When and where was that? I think I used to eat there or pass by it.

We were there back in the '70's, and I honestly don't remember where At Our Place was located. Cookie lived on 22nd Street, and it wasn't too far from her loft.

Years have flowed by, and eroded my memory...

[Jim Garber]

We were there back in the '70's, and I honestly don't remember where At Our Place was located. Cookie lived on 22nd Street, and it wasn't too far from her loft.

Years have flowed by, and eroded my memory...

Wow, we should have run into each other. I moved to NYC in 1974 from Cambridge, MA lived for a short time there then moved to 15th and 7th then to Brooklyn.

According to this forum (https://forums.egullet.org/topic/50224-restaurant-history-of-the-upper-west-side/) Cleopatra was on Broadway between 91st & 92nd.

[allenhopkins]

Thanx, Jim -- if, as "Pan" says in that forum, Cleopatra/At Our Place is now Cleopatra's Needle, the address would be 2485 Broadway -- a long way from Cookie's place on 22nd. Checking the restaurant's website, (http://www.cleopatrasneedleny.com) the facade's very much as I remember it. However, it was more than 45 years ago that I went there, so no certainty involved, for certain...

We also might have run into each other in Cambridge, where I was at Harvard 1961-65, and spent much time at Club 47, the Unicorn, etc. listening to the then-burgeoning folk music scene. Never did get to Hillbilly Ranch to hear the Lilly Brothers & Don Stover, though I did hear the Charles River Valley Boys, Keith & Rooney, and the Osborne Brothers at Club 47.

[JeffD]

Jim, it's hard to tell from the pictures, but are the two points symmetrically in line, or is treble side lower?

[NickR]

Montgomery Ward sold a stripped down version for a mere $12-95. I bought one recently on eBay and I will post a photo below. I was determined to win it and I made a pickguard to encourage me to this end- and it went for $66. It has arrived- the body is in fabulous condition but the neck is bowed, so I have set it up with a stripped down bridge. As Jim Garber mentions with his Ultra Grand- the neck has been reglued and Jake Wildwood mentions with his, he did a reset, so this appears to be par for the course. Jake mentions how great his sounds and I can only concur. Mine has Waverly "fleur de lis" plate tuners and the board and frets are also very good but the headstock is a bit battered.
https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/2009/11/c1930-regal-carved-top-reverse.html

This is an auction photo:

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[Jim Garber]

Hmmm…. Thanks for resurrecting this five-year-old thread. It reminds me to attend to my take this to the luthier list. I actually did but the guy who I took it to wanted to charge me a big sum to deal with this. I have to take it to another person sometime.

[NickR]

Jim, I was hoping that yours was now playing and getting much praise for its tone! I hope you can get it fixed, okay. Do you know how the neck is fixed- is it a dovetail? I know Regal and I think Harmony used a dowel in their lower spec instruments. Looking at the photo in Bob Carlin's book, the building on the pickguard is a mosque with a tall minaret. It's a shame it has deteriorated on yours as I imagine it will be well nigh impossible to get another- mine was a very simple job to replicate it as it is exactly the same on another Wards mandolin I have made by Regal.