American Made

[Shotgunwillie]

What are some good AMERICAN made mandolins for around $500?

AMERICAN!!!

[Dave Weiss]

Big Muddy

[allenhopkins]

Redline Traveler, (http://redlineresophonics.com/mandolins/traveler) if you count $685 as being "around $500."

Shawnee Creek two-point, (http://shawneecreekwoodworks.com/gallery.aspx) $550.

Big Muddy M-0, (http://www.bigmuddymandolin.com/products_mandolins_MW0.php) $530 w/narrower neck.

Other than that, you're into the used market. And you needn't shout "AMERICAN!!!" at us; we get where you're coming from. Of the sub-$500 mandolins, the overwhelming majority are Asian imports. Easier to find a US-made mandolin, than a US-made TV set. Zenith keeps one TV assembly plant going in Springfield MO (almost all its sets are assembled in Mexico), so it can claim to be the only manufacturer of "American made TV sets." Everything else comes on a boat across the Pacific...! (Or on a semi over the Rio Grande.)

[Shotgunwillie]

Redline Traveler, (http://redlineresophonics.com/mandolins/traveler) if you count $685 as being "around $500."

Shawnee Creek two-point, (http://shawneecreekwoodworks.com/gallery.aspx) $550.

Big Muddy M-0, (http://www.bigmuddymandolin.com/products_mandolins_MW0.php) $530 w/narrower neck.

Other than that, you're into the used market. And you needn't shout "AMERICAN!!!" at us; we get where you're coming from. Of the sub-$500 mandolins, the overwhelming majority are Asian imports. Easier to find a US-made mandolin, than a US-made TV set. Zenith keeps one TV assembly plant going in Springfield MO (almost all its sets are assembled in Mexico), so it can claim to be the only manufacturer of "American made TV sets." Everything else comes on a boat across the Pacific...! (Or on a semi over the Rio Grande.)

Thanks Allen, and i wasnt trying to be rude, just getting the point across. The style im looking for is more like the Shawnee two point. An Fstyle with ff holes.

[allenhopkins]

The Shawnee Creek F-model is more money than you specified ($650), though that's still less than the Redline Traveler. The two-point has the f-holes you want, but no scroll. I think it's a handsome instrument, but have to confess I've never played and never even seen a Shawnee Creek "live." Their prices are surprisingly low for hand-carved instruments, and of course one has to wonder "how they do it." (Which is what I keep asking about those elaborately hand-inlaid Vietnamese instruments that go for $69 on eBay.)

So I'd have to defer to anyone on the Cafe who's actually played one. But I will say that if Shawnee Creek mandolins are good instruments, their prices are astoundingly reasonable for US-made, solid-wood, hand-built mandolins.

[Marcus CA]

This is where world economics unfortunately comes into the picture. Due to demand, you're not going to see mandolins cranked out like mass-market product, so we're not dealing with Ford-like factory production here.

Part of that $500 covers dealer profit and shipping. Subtract the cost of materials and any company expenses, and you're looking at a pretty low hourly wage for an American builder. That's why Breedloves and Petersens start at around twice that price.

[JEStanek]

Siminoff kit (http://parts.siminoff.net/f5mandolinkits.aspx) and you make it yourself! It's challenging to ask for an American built carved top F style mandolin at a price point that doesn't put food on the table.

Jamie

[Rex Hart]

Zenith shut down it's Springfield operation about 10 years ago.
Redline Traveler, (http://redlineresophonics.com/mandolins/traveler) if you count $685 as being "around $500."

Shawnee Creek two-point, (http://shawneecreekwoodworks.com/gallery.aspx) $550.

Big Muddy M-0, (http://www.bigmuddymandolin.com/products_mandolins_MW0.php) $530 w/narrower neck.

Other than that, you're into the used market. And you needn't shout "AMERICAN!!!" at us; we get where you're coming from. Of the sub-$500 mandolins, the overwhelming majority are Asian imports. Easier to find a US-made mandolin, than a US-made TV set. Zenith keeps one TV assembly plant going in Springfield MO (almost all its sets are assembled in Mexico), so it can claim to be the only manufacturer of "American made TV sets." Everything else comes on a boat across the Pacific...! (Or on a semi over the Rio Grande.)

[allenhopkins]

Rex, thanx for the update. I was going by a journal article that was apparently somewhat "vintage." So, you can't buy an American-made TV set, right?

But you can buy an American-made mandolin, and here's another option:

FloodTone mandolins, (http://members.cox.net/lvartteacher/forsale.htm) made apparently in Las Vegas, prices running as low as $350, many options as to woods, construction etc. Curved tops and backs, remind me of the old Weymann mandolutes.

Not a carved-top, f-hole instrument, such as ShotgunW evidently prefers, though.

[JonZ]

I object to the question, Señor.

[Mike Bunting]

I object to the question, Señor.

Well, I'll be darned, never thought I'd agree with jonz, cool!

[Onesound]

... and RCA shut down their last US PictureTube plants in Scranton PA and Marion IN in the early '00s. Their receiver plant in Bloomington, ID was moved to Juarez Mexico a few years earlier. Zenith was bought out by Lucky Goldstar (S Korea) back in the '90s (if I recall) and RCA was bought from GE in 1987 by the French owned Thomson. No American built TVs for quite a long time actually.

We're lucky that we still have several world class mandolin manufactures that are 100% American (not to mention all the terrific independent builders). Of course, we also have some wonderful builders who handcraft marvelous instruments in Canada, Europe and Australia.

[JonZ]

Well, I'll be darned, never thought I'd agree with jonz, cool!

Muchos gracias! :cool:

[mandolirius]

I object to the question, Señor.

What's wrong with the question?

[JonZ]

I don't know if there is anything wrong with the question. I just thought it would be fun for me to object to someone else's question for a change.

Plus, I wanted to see if I could get Mike Bunting to agree with me.

[Mike Bunting]

I don't know if there is anything wrong with the question. I just thought it would be fun for me to object to someone else's question for a change.

Plus, I wanted to see if I could get Mike Bunting to agree with me.
Well now I take it all back!

[JonZ]

:))

[Jim MacDaniel]

Of course, we also have some wonderful builders who handcraft marvelous instruments in Canada, Europe and Australia.

...as well as in South America, Japan, and New Zealand -- not to mention Israel's Arik Kerman. :mandosmiley:

[Schlegel]

Good vintage flat or canted top oval hole mandolins can be had in that price range, as well as the better bowlback mandolins.

[Rick Cadger]

Limiting yourself to American-made instruments cuts out the majority of decent new instruments that would otherwise be in your budget.

At the risk of a ham sandwich, if you would consider Asian instruments you would have quite a few very good options.

[MikeEdgerton]

...At the risk of a ham sandwich, if you would consider Asian instruments you would have quite a few very good options.

I don't care you you are, that's funny. :)

[Lou Giordano]

I spoke to Mike (Shawnee Creek) a couple of days ago. He was very helpful. He is flexible on things like nut width as well. Mike is getting busy now with a number of recent orders. His mandolin is high on my MAS list.

[jaycat]

Am I the only one who thinks the American-made options listed above are, well . . . kind of unattractive looking?

(and that comparisons to television sets are pretty irrelevant?)

[Lou Giordano]

I don't know how to say this so I will not offend anyone. I truly don't want to do that. If I am out of line moderators, please dump this post.

I'm 61 and I was unemployed for a year and a half and now consider myself blessed to have a part time job. I bought my Kentucky KM505, not knowing that I could get one of Mikes mandolins for a few bucks more. For me I don't care if Mike's work may not look as good as my 505. I would rather give my money to an individual than a corporation. It's desperate times. I would make that sacrifice to help someone. Just leftovers from my 70s Hippy mentality.

[MikeEdgerton]

There's nothing wrong with wanting to do buisness with a small guy vs. a big guy and there's nothing wrong with wanting to do business with a big guy vs. a small guy. That's not offensive, it's personal choice. There's nothing wrong with preferring one brand over another or one country of origin over another. That's personal choice. Where the conversation becomes a problem is when the conversation becomes politicized.

[Ed Goist]

Lou, I am right there with you, but there is another thing at work here that has nothing to do with politics...

When one buys an instrument made start-to-finish by an individual, one can contact that individual directly if there is a question, issue or problem with the instrument.

If you have a problem with your Kentucky, for example, you will be contacting a dealer (albeit a VERY knowledgeable dealer if you've gone through a Cafe sponsor) who is distantly removed from the manufacturing of the instrument.

Case in point: I tried to find out what strings came from the factory on my Kentucky KM-172. This information turned-out to be harder to find than nuclear launch codes...Finally, after several weeks and correspondences, David Gartland, the Marketing and Artist Relations Director for Saga Musical Instruments contacted me by e-mail to confirm that "We (Saga) spec. our Kentucky mandolins with GHS light gauge phosphor bronze".

Now, on the other hand, when I have a question about one of my Morris mandolins, I just contact Sonny (the person responsible for every aspect of the build) and I simply ask him...

I find this feature (immediate access to the person responsible for ALL aspects of the build) to be worth a considerable premium.

[allenhopkins]

Per this adjacent thread, (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?68100-quot-The-Loar-quot-LM-500-VS-Golden-Age-Mandolin) OP's now considering The Loar Chinese-built mandolins.

Have to deal with the marketplace as it is, and the scarcity of choices for new low-to-mid-range domestically built instruments. Weigh the different preferences we have: domestic vs. imported, factory vs. small-builder, F-model vs. A-model -- and then come up against the limit of what we're prepared to spend.

Were I to win Powerball, I'd buy a Lloyd Loar Gibson F-5. Just to have the mandolin that everyone says is "the best." But I don't even buy lottery tickets, and I have a world of fun checking out $300 "oldies" and keeping up with the newest Eastman model. In the end, "economics" is the most crucial variable, and it trumps most others.

[Dave Cowles]

It's also worthwhile to keep in mind that pacrim mandolins may be built offshore, but there are American companies such as Saga, the Music Link, etc. that employ a good number of people that contract for the building and importation, then market and distribute them in the US. We're in a global economy, such as it is, so just because something is made offshore doesn't mean there aren't American workers in the mix. As Allen so eloquently puts it, economics is the major driver in our choices these days for most of us, and unfortunately that is a substantially limiting factor.

[MikeEdgerton]

And now we're drifiting into a discussion that could cause us problems.

[Don Raven]

I felt strongly about buying Americam. I bought a MID MO/Big Muddy M-4 and have never looked back.

[Brent Hutto]

If you dig the flat-top mandolin sound, there's really not much reason not to buy an instrument built in the USA if that matters to you, unless you're looking for something at just a couple hundred dollars. But if you want a carved top, maple and spruce construction and especially if you want a scroll then buying American is a huge constraint in the price range mentioned. Not impossible but it's a tough ask. Used is another matter, of course.

[Jim MacDaniel]

I don't know how to say this so I will not offend anyone. I truly don't want to do that. If I am out of line moderators, please dump this post.

I'm 61 and I was unemployed for a year and a half and now consider myself blessed to have a part time job. I bought my Kentucky KM505, not knowing that I could get one of Mikes mandolins for a few bucks more. For me I don't care if Mike's work may not look as good as my 505. I would rather give my money to an individual than a corporation. It's desperate times. I would make that sacrifice to help someone. Just leftovers from my 70s Hippy mentality.

Don't beat yourself up too much there: If you bought your KM-505 from an independent dealer, then you were still supporting a small business owner, and that's a good thing too. :mandosmiley:

[Rick Cadger]

^ Good posts, those last two. Totally agree.

[Shotgunwillie]

This discussion has really gotten away from the main point. I understand theres instruments in south america, australia, europe, new zealand etc.,etc....but im looking for something i can get pretty local. F style f holes, not extremely expensive.

[Bill Snyder]

Read all the posts. I think you have gotten about the only answers to your question that you are likely to get - plus a lot of extra responses.
Handmade F-style mandolins generally take 100-200 hours to build. Materials cost anywhere from $100 - $1000. So for $500 someone is going to use the less expensive set of materials and work for about $3.00 per hour. Even if they do not do any binding, spray finish and don't buff the instrument out and are incredibly speedy they can't be making more than $4 or $5 per hour. Why would they do that?

[doc holiday]

Bill, Thank you for stating the obvious. I agree with you ~o)

[Shotgunwillie]

Bill, Thank you for stating the obvious. I agree with you ~o)

Well whats "obvious" to you may not be "obvious" to me. Ive been playing for barely a year and have only owned a starter Savannah mandolin. Thats why im asking these questions. If i knew that it took 100-200 hours to make one or $3-$5 an hour i wouldnt be here,

[mandolirius]

Well whats "obvious" to you may not be "obvious" to me. Ive been playing for barely a year and have only owned a starter Savannah mandolin. Thats why im asking these questions. If i knew that it took 100-200 hours to make one or $3-$5 an hour i wouldnt be here,

How are you with woodworking? I don't know anything about them but I know there are kits available. Now that you know an American-made, F-style mandolin for $500 doesn't exist, perhaps a kit might be an option.

[allenhopkins]

Now we're starting to get a bit feisty here; let's dial it back. I think, ShotgunW, that we've succeeded in establishing that there really aren't American-made F-model f-hole mandolins for $500 or so. At least not new ones. What Bill S writes about the labor and materials costs involved in building an F-5 type instrument is spot-on. The Shawnee Creek at $650 is the cheapest new US-made F-model I've been able to find -- and, while they may be excellent instruments, I've never had a chance to see or play one.

If you want a US-made, new, F-model mandolin, you're going to have to pay more. If you aren't able to do that, and you are set on an F-model, don't want to buy used, you're going to get an Asian-made instrument. There are good instruments for that price; they probably aren't hand-carved, but they are solid wood (as opposed to laminated), and will undoubtedly be a good step up from the Savannah. Many Cafe members will advise you that you can get "more mandolin for your money" if you get an A-model instead, since the scroll carving adds to the price without improving the sound, but I understand the appeal of the F-style silhouette.

You're already considering one of The Loar mandolins, and that's not a bad way to go. There are also good mid-priced solid-wood Kentucky F-models that Cafe members seem to like. I think some of us were put off by the "AMERICAN!!!" you put in your first post, and we got into a near-political discussion about foreign vs. domestic products, that got us nowhere. Look on this as an attempt to gather information about what's out there in the marketplace, and what the economic realities of mandolin manufacture and sales dictate.

[mandolirius]

Now we're starting to get a bit feisty here; let's dial it back. I think, ShotgunW, that we've succeeded in establishing that there really aren't American-made F-model f-hole mandolins for $500 or so. At least not new ones. What Bill S writes about the labor and materials costs involved in building an F-5 type instrument is spot-on. The Shawnee Creek at $650 is the cheapest new US-made F-model I've been able to find -- and, while they may be excellent instruments, I've never had a chance to see or play one.

If you want a US-made, new, F-model mandolin, you're going to have to pay more. If you aren't able to do that, and you are set on an F-model, don't want to buy used, you're going to get an Asian-made instrument. There are good instruments for that price; they probably aren't hand-carved, but they are solid wood (as opposed to laminated), and will undoubtedly be a good step up from the Savannah. Many Cafe members will advise you that you can get "more mandolin for your money" if you get an A-model instead, since the scroll carving adds to the price without improving the sound, but I understand the appeal of the F-style silhouette.

You're already considering one of The Loar mandolins, and that's not a bad way to go. There are also good mid-priced solid-wood Kentucky F-models that Cafe members seem to like. I think some of us were put off by the "AMERICAN!!!" you put in your first post, and we got into a near-political discussion about foreign vs. domestic products, that got us nowhere. Look on this as an attempt to gather information about what's out there in the marketplace, and what the economic realities of mandolin manufacture and sales dictate.

Says the self-appointed spokesman. Maybe you have done some or all of what you suggested but you don't speak for me or others. I simply took the question for what it was. There was no need for it to get political and I think it's a weak defense to blame the wording of the original post for that. Sometimes the best way to avoid saying the wrong thing is to say less to begin with.

[allenhopkins]

Apologies! The "feisty" didn't apply to your well-reasoned postings. I did detect a bit of frustration and combativeness on the part of another poster, and we'd already been warned about venturing into political waters. I did respond to the OP's "AMERICAN!!!", which perhaps I shouldn't have. If I come across pompous, my bad. We did, however, start talking about politics, which is a short cut to a closed thread.

Said all I have to say, perhaps more than I should. "Outta here," as they say...

[Bill Snyder]

I was not trying to be a smart alec or start anything. I was just trying to let the OP know in an abbreviated form what was involved and why low cost, American, handmade f-style mandolins are just about non-existent.

[mandroid]

You could get an Amateur builder's early projects , and encourage him to make more that way,

amortize the tool purchase that they had to buy to make the first few.

Maybe someone who successfully put together a Kit project.

The Classifieds is a good place to communicate on that. :popcorn:

sub $500 and an F5 made in the USA by a major Brand name is a bit wishful

.. in Vespucci Land.

[billkilpatrick]

buy someone's mandolin on craig's list, ebay us or mandolin.cafe classifieds - he's american, you're american ... how all three of you got there is incidental.

[Rick Cadger]

Now we're starting to get a bit feisty here; let's dial it back. I think, ShotgunW, that we've succeeded in establishing that there really aren't American-made F-model f-hole mandolins for $500 or so. At least not new ones. What Bill S writes about the labor and materials costs involved in building an F-5 type instrument is spot-on. The Shawnee Creek at $650 is the cheapest new US-made F-model I've been able to find -- and, while they may be excellent instruments, I've never had a chance to see or play one.

If you want a US-made, new, F-model mandolin, you're going to have to pay more. If you aren't able to do that, and you are set on an F-model, don't want to buy used, you're going to get an Asian-made instrument. There are good instruments for that price; they probably aren't hand-carved, but they are solid wood (as opposed to laminated), and will undoubtedly be a good step up from the Savannah. Many Cafe members will advise you that you can get "more mandolin for your money" if you get an A-model instead, since the scroll carving adds to the price without improving the sound, but I understand the appeal of the F-style silhouette.

You're already considering one of The Loar mandolins, and that's not a bad way to go. There are also good mid-priced solid-wood Kentucky F-models that Cafe members seem to like. I think some of us were put off by the "AMERICAN!!!" you put in your first post, and we got into a near-political discussion about foreign vs. domestic products, that got us nowhere. Look on this as an attempt to gather information about what's out there in the marketplace, and what the economic realities of mandolin manufacture and sales dictate.

For my money, that sums it all up. If the OP reads one post here and takes it on board, it should be that one.

[mandolirius]

Apologies! The "feisty" didn't apply to your well-reasoned postings. I did detect a bit of frustration and combativeness on the part of another poster, and we'd already been warned about venturing into political waters. I did respond to the OP's "AMERICAN!!!", which perhaps I shouldn't have. If I come across pompous, my bad. We did, however, start talking about politics, which is a short cut to a closed thread.

Said all I have to say, perhaps more than I should. "Outta here," as they say...

Yeah, my apologies too. I didn't mean to sound as critical as I did. I think the OP did leave the door open to a political discussion with his capitalized postscript but I also think it was an easy discussion to avoid.

[Ron McMillan]

I think that wanting to buy something made by American craftsmen is perfectly admirable, but nowadays only really practical above a certain price point (with a very small number of exceptions).

If you have upwards of three thousand dollars to spend it is probably still the smartest way to go too, but in the budget range, overseas makers have simply overtaken the domestic manufacturers in what is a long-established and surely understandable economic process. The cost-efficient manufacturing of everything from toasters to automobiles to oil tankers has shifted to the East in recent decades, and quality guitars have been made in the Far East for more than fifty years already.

The market is ever-changing, and only in the last 12 months it has changed again, with the emergence of reasonable quality budget instruments that no longer suffer from the 'normal' low-end failings. Brands coming out of China such as Eastman and The Loar and (I believe) Kentucky and others are now giving folks who don't have thousands to spend a chance to get started with instruments that, if we are honest about it, are better than beginners have ever had, even back in the 'golden era' when most of the mandolins seemed to come out of Kalamazoo.

There may be elements of it that grate a little, but it's called progress.

ron

[Shotgunwillie]

Alright. Ive been weighing my options. I had my mind SET on "The Loar" 500, but after hearing that its not worth the price of the 600 or even the 400 Im open to more brands, imports, whatever...A style f style...etc.,etc. The only thing i want really is something nicer WITH ff holes. I personally dont care for the O or D holes. So any suggestions would be greatly aprreciated.

[JEStanek]

Consider the new line of Eastmans, the 305 is under $500. It has a stamped tailpiece, budget (but functional tuners) and a matte finish, or look into a used Eastman 505 or 605 (A style with F holes). Many people also highly recommend the Kentucky km505 as a very nice affordable mandolin.

Jamie

[jamann]

Shotgunwillie, If your still opting for an american made mandolin which I admire you might try looking up Bernard Allen from Naylor, MO. I had a custom made F style mandolin made several years back (my first) for $700.00 which turned out to be a great mandolin which I still own. Not sure if he's still around. Try searching on the Cafe. He built as a hobby and sold on Ebay. If you decide to go with an import I would highly suggest a used JBovier. You can easily pick these up for around $600 and in my opinion are much better than anything else out there. Really surprisingly great sounding mandolins for the price.

[Toycona]

In photos posted in a different forum discussion, I've noticed an aesthetic upturn in the Shawnee Creek 'F' style (NFI). In my own research for an American luthier, I found a good one in Jonathan Mann, though not at the price point in the discussion here. I was happy to pay a bit more for my Manndolin, knowing that I was supporting in independent builder who was really cool to work with. As for my new American made instrument, you can see photos in the '2 point mandolin' forum discussion. Looks and sounds great.

[John Kinn]

The Shawnee Creek mandolins have an incredible price tag. Very difficult to judge an instrument from photos, but why did Mike move Florida south of Texas?

[Ed Goist]

...snip...but why did Mike move Florida south of Texas?

Now that's funny!..."The Texas fretboard extension"

[Perry Babasin]

$.02 worth... I would argue that if you buy used, it doesn't matter the original country of origin. If you're buying from an American, the economic transaction is American. You help the local economy, local businesses and local individuals. I feel the same way about cars. You can save quite a bit as well... Buy Used!!! Ha,ha,ha,ha

Oh-oh... Old thread syndrome, I wonder if he bought "The Loar" ha,ha,ha~~~

[Mandolin Mick]

For me personally ... this is a non-issue. I just try to buy the best for the money. Country of origin and whether it's a private owner or large company are irrelevant to me. ;)

[Tracey]

This is an interesting discussion. I'm enjoying the different points of view, even thouugh it's drifeted close to "the line". In an global economy the lines get blurred. I have a friend that won't consider a Honda or Toyota even though many models are built in America employing American workers. Regarding Mandolines about Northfield? A five man business of two Americans and three Chinese. The wood is American. The initial work is done in China by true Chinese craftsmen, then set up here by true American craftsmen. Consensus seems to be that these are extremely fine, high quality instruments at a realtively afforadable price. Do Northfield Mandolines meet the standard of American made? I suppose to some, probably not. But neither are they mass produced pac rim. On a certain level I understand the desire to "buy American". But when I am spending my hard earned money I tend to seek the highest quality I can find at the price point I can afford. I bought an Eastman from the Mandolin Store. I am very pleased with the quality of the instrument for what I paid. The Mandolin Store made a profit, which keeps them in business and pays their employees and it doesn't bother me one whit that it was made in China because the craftsmanship is evident.

[Toycona]

For me, being able to interact a bit with the luthier as a individual, private artist is also important. In the era of big box shopping, we rarely get that chance.

[Ed Goist]

For me, being able to interact a bit with the luthier as a individual, private artist is also important. In the era of big box shopping, we rarely get that chance.

Huge +1! See my earlier post to this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?68023-American-Made&p=866534&viewfull=1#post866534).

[red7flag]

I feel much the way Tacona does. I will say that I could get this same feeling from working with Steve Gilchrist or another small foreign builder. There is something special about the relationship that grows between a builder and buyer. I recently had a very good and close relationship with Andrew Mowry inspite of the huge mile seperation between us. That relationship comes not from the country of origin or distance, but a very intangible relationship where a person is able to build anothers dream. This was especially true of the GOM I had build. Andrew had never built with walnut on any instrument or applied his cool art deco head stock usually used for A models to his GOMS. I have to give Andrew a lot of credit for being willing to try some new ideas. The final result was breathtaking and the sound did not suffer one bit. Buying an instrument from a dealer is great, but having one built by a luthier that matches your dreams, unmatched.

[Bill Snyder]

...Oh-oh... Old thread syndrome, I wonder if he bought "The Loar" ha,ha,ha~~~

He purchased a Morgan Monroe (product of Asia).

[Wanderer]

Trying to order a custom Shawnee Creek F5 but it appears he does not ship to Canada. I'm awaiting his reply to my inquiry. I like supporting the little guy USA/Canada type manufacturers whenever I can.

[Rick Schmidlin]

Well, I'll be darned, never thought I'd agree with jonz, cool!

I agree too, I respect all craftsman around the world.