Would Gold Rush be copyrighted?

[FrDNicholas]

I am trying to find the sheet music for the Bill Monroe/Kenny Baker tune Gold Rush and haven't had any luck so far. Would that tune be copyrighted, or does anyone know of a web site that might have the sheet music? Thanks.

[Steve Cantrell]

I'm fairly certain Byron Berline wrote that tune, but I don't know if it is copyrighted or not.

[Jim MacDaniel]

Courtesy of this related discussion (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?34221-Gold-rush-by-monroe), here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/tab/goldrush.txt) is a link to it in the cafe's tab library. ;)

[FrDNicholas]

Unfortunately, I can't read tab. I was hoping for the standard notation.

[Jim MacDaniel]

I'm with you as I prefer standard notation myself, and if you follow my link above to the related discussion, someone actually posted the dots as well. If you don't like that version, a few other versions are referenced in the thread, although you might need to research those suggestions to determine if they are in tab and/or notation.

[Charlieshafer]

Byron did indeed write it, as mentioned in several posts, and it is under copyright.

[woodwizard]

Here's a faily simple version

[FrDNicholas]

Thanks, that's exactly what I'm looking for. I have the Dan Crary version in my head, so I'll use this version to fill in the gaps since it's been awhile since I've heard his playing. Thanks again.

[Randy Smith]

In Stacy Phillips and Kenny Kosek's *Bluegras Fiddle Styles* (Oak Publications, 1978) the transcription of the original recording of "Gold Rush" reads "Copyright 1971 Peer International Corporation." Under the title is printed "by Bill Monroe." At two of his concerts I've heard Berline describe "Gold Rush" as a tune he "helped Monroe put together." I don't know if Berline has ever claimed to be the tune's only composer. Anyone interested in this tune, particulary Berline's fiddling, might like looking at this transcription.

[Salty Dog]

Roland White says in his instruction book that he witnessed Bill and Byron working out the finer details of the tune on the bus when Roland was playing guitar for Bill. He says that it is a "fiddle tune that Bill Monroe made up and fleshed out with Byron Berline on the bus." I met a fellow in Poplar Bluff, Missouri named "Foots" Duncan who says he played Mandolin for WSM when he was 15 during a short period after Bill injured his hand on his farm and was recovering. I can't find anything confirming him as a former "Blue Grass Boy" in the literature. "Foots" played the fiddle and often played a tune he called his "A Song" (key of A) which he claimed that Bill had stolen from him. I thought it had a familiar sound and finally figured out that it was probably the original "Gold Rush" so, in my mind, that lends some support for his story. I have found no documented evidence to support his presence in the band or involvement with the song other than his word, but the two tales seem to add up to "Gold Rush" having been a polished version of his original tune.

[Charlieshafer]

Tony Rice insists it's Berline's tune. Unless Byron fills us all in, it's just one of those fun exercises in futility.

[AlanN]

I think an old FRETS issue may have it noted out, with text from Byron. I'll look for it.

[farmerjones]

if you call Byron at his shop in Oklahoma, he'll tell you.

[Tbone]

I've been wondering exactly how to go about finding out about copyrights. We're getting ready to record an old trad (I think) tune called Gimme Back My Fifteen Cents. Pretty sure the skillet lickers recorded it at some point. Does anyone have any info?

Thanks.

[Mike Bunting]

For the notation of Byron Berline's solo on Gold Rush download the following, hundreds of fiddle versions of Monroe instrumentals. It's called Stoney Lonesome Fiddle tunes (or something like that).

http://www.stacyphillips.com/downloads.html

[Paul Kotapish]

I've been wondering exactly how to go about finding out about copyrights. We're getting ready to record an old trad (I think) tune called Gimme Back My Fifteen Cents. Pretty sure the skillet lickers recorded it at some point. Does anyone have any info?

For recording a song or tune, what you really need to find out is who owns the rights and whether or not you need to obtain a mechanical license. (Search the forum for exhaustive discussions on the topic.)

The licensing agent for most U.S. music is the Harry Fox Agency, and they have a public song search feature here:

http://www.harryfox.com/songfile/public/publicsearch.jsp

I checked on "Gimme Back My Fifteen Cents" and it returned no results. That isn't necessarily conclusive evidence that you can go ahead and record the tune without a license, but it's a good start.

"Gold Rush" is listed as a Bill Monroe piece. It wasn't unusual for Bill to get the lion's share of credit for songs and tunes his bandmates helped work out or even composed outright.

To see if a song or tune is already acknowledged as in the public domain, try:

http://www.pdinfo.com/

A search there also resulted in no hits.

A search at the Folk Index attributed the song to the Binkley Brothers' Dixie Clodhoppers, but didn't indicate writer, copyright, or publishing rights. That wouldn't be unusual for old-time songw, many of which were based on or cobbled togther from older songs.

http://www.ibiblio.org/folkindex/kwframe.htm

A few more good-faith efforts with no results would probably suffice for you to attribute the tune to public domain.

Good luck.

[ralph johansson]

Tony Rice insists it's Berline's tune. Unless Byron fills us all in, it's just one of those fun exercises in futility.

We already know what Berline said in public. We also have Roland White's testimony.
What else do we need? Well, while preparing their book on Monroe, Wolfe and/or Rosenberg emailed Berline. His answer was that Monroe had the idea and Berline helped him shape it into an oldtime fiddle number. "I did not write the entire tune but I did help". He also contributed the outchorus. I believe this is on p. 158 of the book.

[ralph johansson]

And, as usual, the tune can be found in midi, tab and standard on mandozine

[FrDNicholas]

Ralph, would you be kind enough to give the link for mandozine? I searched the website, but couldn't find Gold Rush. I don't know where to look. I would especially prefer the standard notation. THanks for your time.

[farmerjones]

We already know what Berline said in public. We also have Roland White's testimony.
What else do we need? Well, while preparing their book on Monroe, Wolfe and/or Rosenberg emailed Berline. His answer was that Monroe had the idea and Berline helped him shape it into an oldtime fiddle number. "I did not write the entire tune but I did help". He also contributed the outchorus. I believe this is on p. 158 of the book.

This reminds me a bit of the Kenny Baker, Jerusalem Ridge threads.
Not good nor bad. It is what it is.

Both Berline & Baker are alive and kickin, and that's such a good thing.
I'm entirely envious of those that sought them out.

[doc holiday]

Gold Rush is a modern tune and as such I wouldn't expect it to be in the public domain.
Musicians, whether they are writing or performing deserve to me credited (socially & financially) for their work. Recording peoples tunes and not paying the royalties is ....well, just wrong. There is an Aubrey Haynie recording of "Ookpik Waltz" that is credited to PD when it is commonly know in fiddle circles, that the tune was written by Frankie Rogers, (who was alive at the time)... That's my rant for today

:)

[Paul Kotapish]

As noted above, "Gold Rush" is listed in the Harry Fox songfile with credit (or publishing rights, anyways) going to Bill Monroe.

Learning the tune--and giving credit to Byron, Bill, et al--and playing it out is all perfectly legit (public-performance royalties are the obligation of the venue, not the performer). Recording that tune would require a license from Harry Fox with 9.1¢ per unit manufactured going to Mr. Monroe's publishing estate.

[yoshka]

here (http://www.mandozine.com/music/search_results.php?searchfor=gold+rush&tuneselectby=C&mandolevel=&category=&songkey=&artist=&transcriber=&sortby=T&sortorder=A&submit=) from Mandozine is 5 versions of Gold Rush. You can view it (hear it and print it) in tab or standard notation.

[FrDNicholas]

What is a TEF file and what is needed to open it? I've never seen this before.

[yoshka]

Download a TEFview Free TablEdit File Viewer from here (http://www.tabledit.com/download/index.shtml).

[Willie Poole]

A few years back here on radio station WAMU they were interviewing Peter Rowand and he talked about a song that Monroe had written (can`t recall the song now) and the DJ played the recording and right after that he played a old, old record of the same song that was written and recorded by a black man long before Bill claimed it....After that I heard that Monroe often paid a small fee for songs that other people had written and he listed them as songs that he had written....Gene Autry did the same thing with some of his "cowboy" songs....If only I could sell some that I have written.....sigh

[FrDNicholas]

I downloaded the TableEdit file and then opened the tune in it. This gave me a whole page of tablature. I looked in the FAQ of TableEdit which said to click on the "M" in the lower right-hand of the screen to switch to standard notation. I have looked everywhere for this "M" and can't see it. Can someone lead me through this process? I would be most grateful.

[FrDNicholas]

I found the way to get the notation, so please ignore my last post. Thanks for the help. Now I have tons of tunes to work on!

[Tbone]

For recording a song or tune, what you really need to find out is who owns the rights and whether or not you need to obtain a mechanical license. (Search the forum for exhaustive discussions on the topic.)

The licensing agent for most U.S. music is the Harry Fox Agency, and they have a public song search feature here:

http://www.harryfox.com/songfile/public/publicsearch.jsp

I checked on "Gimme Back My Fifteen Cents" and it returned no results. That isn't necessarily conclusive evidence that you can go ahead and record the tune without a license, but it's a good start.

"Gold Rush" is listed as a Bill Monroe piece. It wasn't unusual for Bill to get the lion's share of credit for songs and tunes his bandmates helped work out or even composed outright.

To see if a song or tune is already acknowledged as in the public domain, try:

http://www.pdinfo.com/

A search there also resulted in no hits.

A search at the Folk Index attributed the song to the Binkley Brothers' Dixie Clodhoppers, but didn't indicate writer, copyright, or publishing rights. That wouldn't be unusual for old-time songw, many of which were based on or cobbled togther from older songs.

http://www.ibiblio.org/folkindex/kwframe.htm

A few more good-faith efforts with no results would probably suffice for you to attribute the tune to public domain.

Good luck.

Thanks Paul!

[ralph johansson]

A few years back here on radio station WAMU they were interviewing Peter Rowand and he talked about a song that Monroe had written (can`t recall the song now) and the DJ played the recording and right after that he played a old, old record of the same song that was written and recorded by a black man long before Bill claimed it....After that I heard that Monroe often paid a small fee for songs that other people had written and he listed them as songs that he had written....Gene Autry did the same thing with some of his "cowboy" songs....If only I could sell some that I have written.....sigh

Probably Rocky Road Blues. I don't think Monroe bought it. He did buy How Will I Explain from Arthur Q Smith in Knoxville and Goodbye Old Pal from Cliff Carlisle - for 15 dollars (I heard this from Monroe himself).

[michellefiddle]

Here's the sheet music for Gold Rush that I transcribed. Hope you can open it.

https://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/567fb057268fb29ffa372e8740f67d479f6f640d

[Pete Martin]

Berline was camped in the trailer next to me about 3 years ago at Weiser. I asked him if he had written Gold Rush and he said "That's Bill's tune".

I had always assumed Byron had written it and Bill claimed authorship as this was the common practice for bandleaders.

Just saying what he told me...

[Russ Jordan]

Maybe he meant it was "Bill's tune" because Bill had ownership. I interviewed Byron by phone, mmm, close to 20 years ago. I asked about Gold Rush, and he joked that he didn't think it would amount to anything so he let Bill have it!

[Spruce]

He just laughed when I asked him if it was OK to rename it "Cold Rush" on "Overhead At Darrington" (https://bruceharvie.bandcamp.com/album/overhead-at-darrington), and not pay him royalties...

I was just being facetious, but then he said something like what he told Pete--"that's Bill's tune anyway"...

FWIW, I don't believe him... ;)

[ralph johansson]

Tony Rice insists it's Berline's tune. Unless Byron fills us all in, it's just one of those fun exercises in futility.

According to Berline (email to Charles Wolfe) it was Monroe's idea, which he helped shape into an old-time fiddle tune. Berline also contributed the out chorus.

[ralph johansson]

According to Berline (email to Charles Wolfe) it was Monroe's idea, which he helped shape into an old-time fiddle tune. Berline also contributed the out chorus.

Sorry, Neil Rosenberg, not Charles Wolfe. I've already posed on this topic, didn't realize it was an old thread.

[stringalong]

Tony Rice insists it's Berline's tune. Unless Byron fills us all in, it's just one of those fun exercises in futility.

Here's a YouTube of Byron Berline describing his and Bill Monroe's collaboration on Gold Rush: Byron Berline plays all 3 parts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y8sStWw7Po

[ralph johansson]

Oops, turns out I already commented on this. TWICE!! Moral: always check the date of the
initial post.

[KEB]

A few years back here on radio station WAMU they were interviewing Peter Rowand and he talked about a song that Monroe had written (can`t recall the song now) and the DJ played the recording and right after that he played a old, old record of the same song that was written and recorded by a black man long before Bill claimed it....After that I heard that Monroe often paid a small fee for songs that other people had written and he listed them as songs that he had written....Gene Autry did the same thing with some of his "cowboy" songs....If only I could sell some that I have written.....sigh


It's not like that type of practice was unique to Mr. Monroe. Carter Stanley, who is listed as the author of hundreds of classic songs, drove around the country buying the rights off of anyone he could find. He'd pay someone a few bucks to sell the rights to songs they didn't really own. The notion of authorial credit for "folk" music is a pretty recent phenomenon, so "owning" the credit to a song you wrote really doesn't go back that far. Broadsheets of the 19th century looked like they were "authentic" but there was no real copyright protection for pop music. The first real professional songwriter was Stephen Foster-- and that only goes back to the mid 19th century.

In our modern world of intellectual property and ownership of thoughts and music, we've really made this issue confusing, and occasionally terribly contentious.

[allenhopkins]

It's not like that type of practice was unique to Mr. Monroe. Carter Stanley, who is listed as the author of hundreds of classic songs, drove around the country buying the rights off of anyone he could find. He'd pay someone a few bucks to sell the rights to songs they didn't really own.

One of the most prolific "song researchers/stealers" was A P Carter, who put his name on a bunch of public domain songs. The Lomaxes, John and Alan, weren't bad at it either.


The notion of authorial credit for "folk" music is a pretty recent phenomenon, so "owning" the credit to a song you wrote really doesn't go back that far. Broadsheets of the 19th century looked like they were "authentic" but there was no real copyright protection for pop music.

We've had copyright laws in the US since 1790. Presumably they extended to musical composition as well as literary works. The idea that an arrangement of an otherwise public domain song can be copyrighted -- the basis for copyrighting "folk music" -- may be a later development.


The first real professional songwriter was Stephen Foster-- and that only goes back to the mid 19th century.

Which, of course, doesn't imply that he was the first to write, or copyright, musical compositions.


In our modern world of intellectual property and ownership of thoughts and music, we've really made this issue confusing, and occasionally terribly contentious.

Agree wholeheartedly.