Before I take it home... [Archive]

Cue Zephyr

Nov-29-2010, 8:45am

Thanks for the replies!

Jim,
It'll be the 550, because the 505 isn't readily available here. I was told the 550 is just the same, just a little bit prettier. However, Zach at The Mandolin Store did tell me the 505 actually was a better instrument than the 505.
A strap indeed sounds like a good idea - as I don't see how in the world I can play an A-style sitting down without a strap...

Ivan,
I have played it. I found it much better to play and listen to than any cheaper Kentucky in there (it had the most depth and prettiest highs). When I was in the store 2 weeks ago I didn't really put down the KM-550 - I liked it.
He didn't kick me out when it actually was closing time, which is great.
I think you can already tell I liked that 550. It was the same way with my first guitar and I still love it to bits.
As the man in the shop (that I'll be going back to this week) plays mandolin (bluegrass) himself, I trust him (and this forum) saying the Kentucky brand has one of the best 'lesser-priced' instruments.

Galsenbury,
I only have a tuning fork (I'm so old-fashioned). I can't really 'read' a tuner. I've got about half a dozen picks of around 1mm and more (different materials, most of it is Dunlop though). The thickest I have is a very small 2.0mm Stubby. Any other types you recommend for the mandolin? I found the Ultex 1.14mm to work really well with it's sharper tip.

Brent,
I probably don't want to do that - not sure if it'll decrease the value of the instrument but still.

Strings sound like a good idea too. Which brand, gauge and type should I get? I don't know how much tension there is on the E strings (or their thickness), but they are prone to snapping on the guitar as well (except with my mediums on my dreadnought, haha).

Brent Hutto

Nov-29-2010, 8:55am

Well if you need a strap put a button on it. If not, don't bother. Musical instruments are built to be played and mass-produced ones don't have their value determined by authenticity, after all.

Cue Zephyr

Nov-29-2010, 8:58am

Ah, then I'll ask for that. Thanks!

Steve Ostrander

Nov-29-2010, 9:05am

You don't need a strap button. There are several ways to tie a strap on an A-style. Don't pay extra for something you don't need.

Search the archives here for posts about straps and A-style mandos.

Does it come with a case? That's something you will want.

Cue Zephyr

Nov-29-2010, 9:26am

Doesn't come with a case, but I asked and there's cases available ranging from 50 to 100 euros.

Markus

Nov-29-2010, 9:45am

I wouldn't get a strap button while walking out the door - but as you play it for a while it's good to know you can do that [and a fair number of people do]. I don't have one, yet ... but have one planned for my Breedlove as that would be better positioning for my left arm, only when standing [sitting I hold it differently, to minimize contact with my body using a leg as one point].

Took a while to figure that out for sure, though.

Initially I was going to do it because of what I was used to, now I know why I want it.

It's only playing on stage that convinced me that I prefer that strap location [I don't like tying my strap there on an A].

It's personal preference, so best a decision for another day in my opinion. Good to consider, though.

Brent Hutto

Nov-29-2010, 9:48am

And bog simple to do for yourself. Just remember to drill a pilot hole of approximately 0.120" (3mm) diameter before inserting the screw.

Markus

Nov-29-2010, 9:53am

I only have a tuning fork (I'm so old-fashioned). I can't really 'read' a tuner.

If you don't have an electric tuner, the mandolin is reason to get one.

At very least, get one on your smartphone.

There is a reason why it's the Italian word for `out of tune' ;)

Those double courses require lots of tweaking, and it's quite easy to get the courses out of tune with each other in the process. I've found the more precise tuner the better with a mandolin, where I've functioned without issue on guitar for decades using mostly my ear.

Your results may vary, but the double-courses quickly taught me that I'm not tuning by ear off my friend anymore [if I'm going to be happy with the results after a couple of tunes].

You don't need a fancy clip-on, there are some very well liked budget ones [Snark, Intelli] that do just fine. If you're smart enough to research before buying ... it will take minutes to figure out and a few tunings to master completely [if that]. Some of them even give you a colored light to tell you when it's in tune [as it displays the letter of the pitch].

In my opinion, less time tuning is more time playing.

Research it a little, ask the guy to show you how it works ... at worst you're out no more than a nice dinner at a restaurant.

Cue Zephyr

Nov-29-2010, 10:36am

Markus,
Yes you're right. When I first tried the mandolin those same 2 weeks ago it just felt weird because of how small the instrument was, but I couldn't detect any problems in my position yet. I'll probably just buy it and come back if I want a strap button installed.

Brent,
That, too.

Markus,
Yeah I was afraid of that. I really couldn't tune by ear in the store and I found I had the same problem with a 12-string guitar one week or-so later.

I'm gonna ask it again though - which strings should I get?
I think the man at Boetzkes (that is indeed the store I keep referring to) told me the 550 was strung with D'addario J74s. Does that sound okay?
Looking at the tension chart I'll be pressing down a few more kilograms than on my guitar.

Brent Hutto

Nov-29-2010, 10:45am

I don't think J74s will sound bad on any of the usual brands and models of mandolins. Over time you might find something that you like a little better but J74 is a safe choice that'll probably work fine. I use either those or EXP77 which to me sound almost exactly like J74 but last a little longer because they're coated (and for those in the USA here's a secret...Elderly sells them for six bucks a pack).

I'd advise just getting a spare set or two of J74 and stick with that type for a couple months until you get used to the instrument. Then if you want to try a couple other kinds, you'll have a good baseline.

Randi Gormley

Nov-29-2010, 10:54am

The J-74s are a nice, medium-weight string that is a good fall-back until you have a chance to experiment on your own. fwiw. (whoops! cross post)

CES

Nov-29-2010, 10:56am

Agree that J74s are a good place to start. My Kentucky 675-S likes J75s, but I can feel a definite difference between the 2 (the 75s are a little heavier). There are a ton of string choices, and, thankfully, they're relatively inexpensive, but the J74s are a good starting point.

Glad you finally found one that works for you! Enjoy the heck out of it!!

Cue Zephyr

Nov-29-2010, 11:25am

Brent,
Seems like it's the same with guitars. They'll sound fine on anything - but nothing special either.

Randi,
I'm always expermimenting. I have a dozen sets of strings for my acoustic guitar and none of them are identical!

CES,
I will hold off on the 75 for the time being. I'll be pressing even harder there!
I know myself by now, I'll probably step up at some point as well. I always want the maximum amount of tone and volume out of the instrument, it has to be able to take the tension well. As long as it's set-up correctly I'll probably be able to live with anything anyway.

Has any of you tried the Elixir mandolin strings? The brand is very popular among the acoustic guitarists and I wonder how it is around here.

Thanks again.

Brent Hutto

Nov-29-2010, 11:28am

What I found with Elixir on mandolin was sort of like on guitar. I have one guitar that Elixir PB Nanos sound great. They're nothing like any other string I've tried. I've had a couple of other guitars where they sound terrible, once again unlike any other string I've tried (on those instruments) but in a bad way.

On the one mandolin I tried them on, an LM-400, they sound terribly harsh and uneven to me. So it seems they're sui generis again. If they work, they're great. If they don't, not great. Worth trying at some point, perhaps.

Markus

Nov-29-2010, 12:20pm

Markus,
Yeah I was afraid of that. I really couldn't tune by ear in the store and I found I had the same problem with a 12-string guitar one week or-so later.

While having encouraged you to use an electric tuner - every single tuning I make sure the courses match by ear as a final check.

While the clip-on tuners are great for getting everything just about perfect quickly - if you're used to tuning with a fork I'd trust your ear for the final adjustments. At a crowded jam tuning by ear is hopeless for 8 strings, and while the tuner might not be as perfect as ear you can fix that one off string between songs in seconds, getting it quite close much faster.

Excepting my Strobo-clip tuner [expensive, quirky, not to some folks tastes] - I don't think there's a time when I haven't adjusted at least a couple courses of strings by ear to reach perfect tune [at the very end, last step].

You'll be well served by having that ear tuning experience going into things on mandolin, you will be using it and the people around you will really appreciate it. I might really enjoy the speed and lazy factor at which I can get things just about perfectly tuned with a tuner - my ears appreciate having the final adjustments done to their exacting standard.

What the tuner says is two matched strings within a course, played open [and my ear agrees with] - I almost always find in need of adjustment when I check for `perfect tuning' by comparing them fretted. When matching each course of strings, I've found tuning to open isn't good enough for a mandolin played up the neck. To `perfect tune when open strings', I do minimal adjustments when fretting at either 5 or 7 gives me a more harmonius outcome when done as a tweak after tuning the open strings. When both open and fretted sound in tune [matched pairs], just about the whole fretboard you commonly use should be perfectly tuned [assuming the mandolin intonation is on]

I don't often do this outside of mandolin, but after tuning then having it sound `off' when playing closed position I've found this mandatory.

The mandolin really benefits from perfect tune, more than guitar by a huge huge factor.

Cue Zephyr

Nov-29-2010, 12:58pm

Gelsenbury

Nov-29-2010, 3:08pm

I can't see how the mandolin would be less sensitive to humidity and temperature than a guitar. My policy is to be careful but not obsessive. ;)

As for picks, I don't feel very comfortable giving advice on this because I'm not much more experienced than you as a mandolin player and definitely less experienced as a player of string instruments! But the Dunlop Ultex 1.14 (triangle shape for me) is a pick I also like to use, a good fall-back option. I'm also experimenting with a Tortex pick of the same size (very nice sound, but couldn't get it as a triangle), a Golden Gate (very rounded and lovely for strumming but tricky for me when picking) and an ebony wood pick from Hobgoblin music (fabulous natural sound but a very pointy corner which requires precision when playing chords).

Cue Zephyr

Nov-29-2010, 4:24pm

It's smaller, that's all I can think of. But it's still wood, so that's stupid. I might get a violin humidifier (just tell me if that's a dumb idea!) for it or something (I have a dampit for my guitar). I'm not obsessive about it either, but I do try to be careful once it's dead cold outside and the central heating is on inside.

It doesn't have to be advice, I'd be glad with every new idea shared. I also have an Ultex 1.14 triangle. In the short time I tried to play that mandolin I seemed to like it the best because of the sharp tip as I said before. I also tried with a Dunlop Gel extra-heavy (similar shape to Tortex, different material), which also worked OK. A Tortex on the acoustic guitar always gives me nice results, sweet attack and a round tone. It'll probably give similar results on the mando - but I'm pretty sure it all will work out differently (of course I need a different sound on the mandolin).

I'll look out for some even thicker picks and various shapes. I'm not yet ready to spend more than €0,50 on a pick, though!

Markus

Nov-29-2010, 4:50pm

Humidity I would do as you would for a guitar, I'd think - though I'm not expert at this.

I also tend to want to baby any newly made instrument it's first couple of low-humidity seasons as I figure it's only seen the inside of a tree and a luthiery - both where it was kept in ideal conditions. A few winters down the road, perhaps greater variations or too low humidity might be tolerated better [show signs] before catastrophe.

If it's quite dry in winter - then with some humidifier in the case is a good way to store the mandolin.

Without a case, perhaps there's a small closet you could keep humidified [and checked]? It's a lot easier to humidify a case or even a small closet than a whole room [a small closed system changes much less].

I'm lucky to have a humidifier as part of our winter heating system ... so it's stable, and even when it's coldest and we dial the house under 40% and use a small humidifier near the instruments to keep that small area well above 40. After visiting the Arizona desert for a week with my mandolin last week - there are people with humidity problems far worse than either of ours who seem to be able to solve it fine.

I have no doubt there's archived threads with some novel ideas on how to solve these problems ...

Markus

Nov-29-2010, 4:59pm

I'd go with thicker picks ... 1.0 to 2.0 are fun to try out, Tortex from .73 on up all sound nice on mine in various ways - Ultex once you get above 1.0, even a Fender Heavy isn't bad.

Just be sure to get some in the 1.5-ish range, be sure to have some rounded corners as those sometimes are preferred when playing mandolin [the Dawg pick has no sharp points, the Wegen I have is quite round - and perfect that way!].

Dunlop 206, 207 ... there's some interesting large picks to try out. I personally don't love the little tiny rock-hard jazz-guitar-type picks ... I wouldn't want a perfectly rigid pick, just something that's the tiniest bit flexible possible and that has the slightest sponginess to it.

Cue Zephyr

Nov-29-2010, 5:51pm

I check my guitar for deformations (it never seems too dry or wet for it to crack, phew) once in a while (now it's REALLY cold outside and really dry inside I should do it more often). I'm also really afraid when taking my guitar outside in it's gigbag (don't have a case for it).
For my guitar a soundhole humidifier seems to be just enough. No protruding frets or anything, just the soundboard that seems to change most noticeably.

I will buy a case for my Kentucky, so I could get a more advanced system if necessary (probably not, might get another Damp-it).

As for picks, I'll probably be looking for picks that can be found in your average guitar store, I'm guessing there isn't much available past 1.14mm or a bit more (not counting the Dunlop Stubbys).

Markus

Nov-29-2010, 6:39pm

Those should work just fine.

When you're in another city, stop by their music store - soon enough enough you'll have a nice collection of picks and a couple favorites.

Cue Zephyr

Nov-29-2010, 7:54pm

I already do, but it seems like I only like everything above 1mm - which is like 6 picks out of 20 or so. =P

Rob Gerety

Nov-29-2010, 7:57pm

I would never install a strap button on the heel. It is a matter of personal choice, but just as brent advises to do so, i advise against doing it.

I'm with you on this. Another option is to tie to the headstock. like the heel button for guitars but I prefer the headstock for A style mandos.

CES

Nov-29-2010, 10:25pm

For picks, I started with an Ultex .73 on a recommendation I saw somewhere online (Folk of the Wood, maybe) and used it for several months, and then used the rounded end for several months more. Then, for some reason I can't remember, I tried the Fender (larger triangle) Heavy I'd been using for guitar on my mando, and it was my "go to" pick for quite a while (probably 3 years, as they're inexpensive and easily available). Then I bought a used mando from Ted (Jazzmando.com) that came with the Pro-Plec 1.5mm jazzmando pick, and I used it for about 6 months. Then my wife bought me some Wegen TF140s for Christmas (I also had refused to pay more than .50 to 1.00 for a pick), and I haven't looked back. I use those things on all my mandos (except my Mandobird, on which I'm presently using a 1.14mm Ultex) and my acoustic guitar. I'm thinking of getting some TF 120s for my electrics and for when I'm just strumming on acoustic guitar, and I've kicked around getting some 150s to try on mando as well. I've got a couple of Big Stubbies, and a couple of Ultex picks up to 2 mm, and countless others I've picked up along the way. I'll use pretty much any of them in a pinch, but I keep coming back to the Wegens...at this point I hope no one gives me a Blue Chip for Christmas (5 USD/pick is now my upper limit ;) )! The only ones I've tried on mando and just didn't like have been Nylon picks (even the thicker ones have too much flexibility) and a 2mm Clayton (just too much).

I love Elixir Medium-Light or Medium strings on my main acoustic guitar. I'd use something else in a pinch, but really just like the tone and string life on that particular spruce/hog dread...I refuse to pay that much for my beater's strings, though. I've never tried coated strings on my mandolins...probably more because of local availability than anything else.

One of my A-style mandolins has a heel strap button, one doesn't. I always feel like the strap on the former gets in the way up the neck at first, but after playing it for a while it doesn't bother me. I used to feel like the headstock strap got in the way at the first fret until I figured out that I could get the strap's string to stay just above the truss rod cover...issue fortunately resolved.

Given your winter environment, humidity is probably a good idea, though if you treat your mandolin as you would your guitar you'll probably be OK.

Sorry, just realized how long this was...

Jim Ferguson

Nov-29-2010, 10:37pm

Hi Cue......lots of recommendations to ponder above. Here's my 2 euros worth:
1. Have the instrument "set up" before you buy it.
2. Make sure the instrument has new strings or at the least that you get a new set thrown in.....a lot of times when instruments sit around a store for a period of time the instrument gets played by tons of folks & the strings get a lot of wear. Also......buy a set of extra strings to have on hand....never hurts to have a spare set if you need them.
3. Get some type of case.....hard case or a gig bag.
4. Get a strap.
5. Get some good mandolin picks......1 mm or 1.5 mm

HAVE FUN playing your new mando...:-)
Peace,
Jim

Lachlan

Nov-30-2010, 12:41am

I would never install a strap button on the heel. It is a matter of personal choice, but just as brent advises to do so, i advise against doing it.

I know this one guy who plays an A style Nugget with a strap button on the heel... :))

Brent Hutto

Nov-30-2010, 6:08am

I know this one guy who plays an A style Nugget with a strap button on the heel... :))

Yeah, but he's probably not good enough to play without one.

Cue Zephyr

Nov-30-2010, 7:49am

Jim,
I'll just stick with my own favorites then. It's the 1.14 Ultex, Gel E-H and 1.14 Tortex. I also have a 1.0mm Nylon but it's like you said - too much flex in it plus I often don't like the tone it gives me. The odd one out is a Taylor heavy-gauge pick I once 'picked up' at a guitar store (it has a kind of devious tone as well).
I'm interested in the Wegen picks too, actually. I saw some on eBay, maybe I'll grab me a 2-pack of TF140s too (thanks for the heads-up!). Maybe TF120 will be enough for me? How stiff are they compared to any of the above mentioned Dunlops (then I'll know which ones to get)?

Same here, I'm always on the lookout for nice strings. Now I use Dean Markley Helix HD 2083s (13-56). They sounded sweet when new and I even like their darker sound now they've been on for a month or so. They were dead cheap, too (i'd recommend 'em to anybody).

I'll treat any relatively fragile stringed instrument (this doesn't include my electric guitar) with lots of care (just enough, I hope!) - so I guess the mandolin will be just fine.

Brent Hutto

Nov-30-2010, 8:10am

My LM-400 was very happy with a TF120 pick. The TF140 by contrast tended to drive it to a rather harsh edge, with my picking stroke. My new Mike Black A5 also likes the TF120 although it also likes my Blue Chip CT55 which the LM-400 did not get on with whatsoever. Anyway, I'd recommend the TF120 as a good starting Wegen for mandolin use. It's also what my mandolin teacher uses.

That said, given that Mike Black uses the TF140 and gets a great sound from my A5 with it I've been trying it and I think it works well. But I did have to take some 3200-grit Micromesh (tm) and lightly polish the corners to reduce the chippiness of the attack. Unlike other Wegen picks I've tried this particular TF140 may have missed out on a final polishing of the tips or something.

So anyway...TF120 seems a safe choice for a solid, round tone with 'most any mandolin I've played. The TF140 drives it a little harder and works well if you can avoid an edgy sound. Amazing contrast between the two of them given that everything is exactly the same except for a small difference in gauge.

Cue Zephyr

Nov-30-2010, 8:34am

I'll see how much is left on my bank account once I get the mandolin and accessories. If I can still take a 15 bucks (taking shipping into account) off it for a set of two Wegen picks, I'll grab 'em right away. Since it's 1.2mm it might work on my guitar as well - I like thick picks in conjunction with medium gauge strings.

Jon Hall

Nov-30-2010, 8:42am

Thanks both!

Looks like I'll have to do some research for a tuner!

Also, should I worry about humidity and temperature like with my guitar? I'm glad it's just a solid top - I can just feel the deformation because of dry heat in my room.

And, after some brief research I found the Snark tuner. That'll do, right?

I would give the same consideration to humidity and temperature as you do your guitar. If I'm not mistaken the KM550 is all solid wood. I know that the KM505 is.

cutterflys

Nov-30-2010, 9:07am

Cue
Congratulations on your new mando - lots of fun in store for you. When I first took up mandolin (coming from guitar) I used guitar picks. That turned out to be another guitar habit I had to break as the mando is an entirely different animal. I now use the "Dawg" picks, thick and rounded. Really pulls the tone out and allows me to either dig in or play as subtle as I want. Other than that and IMHO there is way too much emphasis on expensive picks. Strings are something you'll have to find by trial & error. The D'addarios are definately a good place to start. I have the dreaded skin acid problem so I find the Elixers a good compromise between tone and longevity, but admit I like the D'addarios a little better for a rounded tone. Humidity control may even be a little more crucial for the mandolin than your guitars. Definately use some kind of humidifier. The old zip lock bag with holes & damp sponge in the case work as well as anything you can buy. I hang all my instruments on a wall in a studio. In the summer time I use a dehumidifier and winter I use an inexpensive table top humidifier from the drug store. I keep the studio between 50% & 55% relative humidity all year. Gotta empty water once a day through the summer and fill water once a day through winter but it works. A case humidifier will work just as well though. One other point I might add when taking your instruments from one temperature/humidity exteme to another, leave them in the case for awhile to acclimate to the new environment slowly. Kinda like keeping fish in an aquarium - you can change the temperature in their environment as long as it's done slowly - do it fast and you'' probably do them in lol.

Good luck and have fun with that mando,
Allen

Rick Cadger

Nov-30-2010, 9:07am

Play every fret position on every string, just to make sure there are no high or low frets.

Hold the tuners with your hand or a cloth to keep them from rattling and then shake the mando. If anything rattles, check to see if it's the tailpiece cover. If it isn't, then check with the store guy to make sure that the truss rod nut isn't too slack and rattling in its channel.

Personally I would go against installing a strap button on the neck heel. The KM-505 and 550 have plenty of room under that dinky little curved fretboard extension to tie a cord or lace to secure a strap. That's what I do.

That said, plenty of people do install a button like Brent said, and find it very convenient. For me though, it gets in the way of playing up high on the board.

I think the 550 is a good choice for your mandolin. Enjoy!

IMHO, one of the best things to do after getting a case (and do get a case), is to save up for a ToneGard. Keeps buttons and belts away from that pretty flamed back, and makes a significant difference to the sound (again, IMO).

Rick Cadger

Nov-30-2010, 9:20am

I would give the same consideration to humidity and temperature as you do your guitar. If I'm not mistaken the KM550 is all solid wood. I know that the KM505 is.

Yup. Both are all solid with hand carved and graduated plates. I think the 550 is basically a slightly refined version of the 505.

I keep a humidity meter in the living room, which is where my instruments are. If it gets below about 38-40% in the winter I pop a container of water on top of the radiator until humidity is up around 45-50% and keep it around there.

If it was summer (no radiator on) and the humidity dropped below about 35-38% I'd keep the mando in its case with a humidifier. But many instruments are happy enough even at lower than 35%. What they really don't like is sudden changes in temp or humidity.

Brent Hutto

Nov-30-2010, 9:26am

The old zip lock bag with holes & damp sponge in the case work as well as anything you can buy.

Agreed. I quit buying Dampits (tm) as soon as I made up a batch of several Zip-Loc (tm) and sponge "humdifiers". Surprisingly, they seem to dry out fast enough not to mold up over the course of a winter so I'm actually reusing last year's again.

IMHO, one of the best things to do after getting a case (and do get a case), is to save up for a ToneGard. Keeps buttons and belts away from that pretty flamed back, and makes a significant difference to the sound (again, IMO).

I just placed an order yesterday for my Tone-Gard (tm). The concept always seemed a little excessive to me but my new mandolin has a french polish finish and after taking it to the family gathering on Thanksgiving it already has its first "ding" in the back, all the way through to the wood. So I'm getting a Tone-Gard just for the rare occasions that I play outside the well controlled setting of my own home. Still seems a little silly and I'm no stickler for having an immaculate scratch-free instrument but at a ding per day it wouldn't take long to accumulate an objectionable number of ugly spots.

peterleyenaar

Nov-30-2010, 9:59am

Thanks both!

And, after some brief research I found the Snark tuner. That'll do, right?

You may consider a tuner with tempered settings, specifically for mandolin or violin, your mandolin will sound nicer, or you can tune the A string and tune the other strings to the A

Cue Zephyr

Nov-30-2010, 10:09am

Jon,
Pretty sure it is. I've been told by 2-3 reputable store owners/employees that they are the same - the 550 is just prettier. Zach at The Mandolin Store however did tell me the 505 was a better instrment and that both were made in different factories.
I'll be just as careful if not more - since the mando will be all-solid whereas my guitar just has a solid top.

Allen,
Thanks! I'm buying it tomorrow!

I'll check out those picks as well some time. I first have to get the mandolin and then find out if I can still aford picks...
I don't have particularly acidic fingers (non-coated strings last me about 20 good hours I think). Will probably be the same on the mando.

BTW, should I worry about the A-string trouble I've read about on this forum?

Rick,
Thanks, that's some great advice. I should remember those things.
Currently making a checklist of things I have to check and buy when I go to buy the instrument.

I'll remember the ToneGard!

Brent Hutto

Nov-30-2010, 10:18am

I never have A-string trouble but in just four months I've managed to break at least half a dozen E strings. Anything you do that tunes and un-tunes an E-string more than a handful of times (like adjusting the action or intonation) runs a significant risk of breakage. At least for me. The A-strings just sound horrible (like the B-string on an acoustic guitar) but you work around it.

Tone-Gard is pretty expensive. Maybe drop a hint to anyone who might be inclined to buy you a Christmas present. Not me, though. My Christmas shopping is done and no Tone-Gards, alas!

Cue Zephyr

Nov-30-2010, 10:46am

Figures - there's like 10 kgs of pull on it. Will graphite (lube or pencil) in the nut and on the bridge work?
I was already wondering if the A-string trouble was similar to the B on the guitar. Is that because there's a transition from wound to plain strings?

I think I'll manage OK without a Tone-Gard. Only if the tone differences really start to bother me (like now with my guitar) - then I'll find a way to get one...

Brent Hutto

Nov-30-2010, 11:03am

The main way in which real-world strings differ from idealized ones is that they have non-negligible stiffness. A perfectly floppy string (zero stiffness) will pretty much oscillate in a way that can be described by simple force-mass-velocity-time sorts of calculations that you'd do in a high-school physics class.

As the stiffness departs very much from zero, the motion gets more complicated because the portions of the moving string that require the largest change in shape from straightness will resist that motion more than the parts that can remain very nearly straight. With taut strings being plucked, the primary audible implication is "inharmonicity" which is the sound of overtones which are not exactly integer multiples of the fundamental. Sounds sour and perhaps even fools your ears into thinking the fundamental is out of tune.

The A-strings on mandolins or the B-string on guitars have the largest diameter of any string (only the solid core diameter matters on wound strings as the windings are orders of magnitude less stiff than a solid wire). Large diameter tends to correspond to stiffness when tuned to pitch, therefore A-strings/B-string has the most non-ideal vibration.

cutterflys

Nov-30-2010, 11:03am

Cue
Like Brent said, just work around them. Graphite from a pencil in the slots at every string change is a good thing (guitars too). That just makes things smoother as the string rides over the nut while tuning. Not sure what it is with the A's. I think it has alot to do (as said before) with frequency and the human ear maybe. I can tune mine in the begining and just my body heat alone will send them a little sharp. They usually settle out after an adjustment or two.

Allen

WOW Brent Hutto, that really hit home with me, Thanks

catmandu2

Nov-30-2010, 11:10am

...the B-string on guitars have the largest diameter...

Just for sake of accuracy: unwound third strings (G) go up to about .18mm, or maybe even .20mm, I think.

Come to think of it, I'm sure of it now--some piano wire I use on my hammered dulcimers is around .20mm.

Brent Hutto

Nov-30-2010, 11:12am

Allen,

Just don't ask me now to make a four-finger G-chord because that's hard! Physics is easy by comparison.

Cue Zephyr

Nov-30-2010, 12:25pm

Brent,
Amazing explanation. I do remember reading that the thicker strings are, the 'less in tune' they will be with their respective fundamentals. Still no idea how they can get it to work on a baritone guitar though (the F# is a .20 plain/unwound or something).

Allen,
Well I think it's just the difference between theoretical physics and practial physics.

I've been rubbing an 8B pencil in the nut slots of my guitar for like 5 if not more string changes. The strings don't 'ping' (rapid release of energy when it grabs onto the nut and releases again) which just tells me it's working. I retune quite a bit on the guitar (alternate tunings), and I'm pretty sure it saved me plenty of high E's and maybe G's.

Cue Zephyr

Nov-30-2010, 7:35pm

Seems like I missed part of the discussion...

Peter,
I'll just wait 'til I get the Snark and see how far it will get me. I'll just tune it up and do fine-tuning by ear from there (as recommended earlier, I think I got a decent ear now).

To get back to the case of cases (...) - a case is a case, right? Cheapest available at Boetzkes is about €50 which sounds like it should be enough for me.

peterleyenaar

Dec-01-2010, 12:45pm

Seems like I missed part of the discussion...

Peter,
I'll just wait 'til I get the Snark and see how far it will get me. I'll just tune it up and do fine-tuning by ear from there (as recommended earlier, I think I got a decent ear now).

If you have an Iphone or an Ipod touch, you can get an inexpensive app called CLEARTUNE that is a precise tuner, it has a violin (similar to mandolin) tempered setting.

Cue Zephyr

Dec-01-2010, 2:54pm

Great, but I don't have any of those - just a 6-year old iPod original that still serves me well. ;)

Brent Hutto

Dec-01-2010, 3:00pm

So how long until "Before I take it home..." becomes "After I take it home...", friend Cue-Z?

[EDIT] I see now that my timing was better than expected. (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?67885-New-Mandoli-Day!-Kentucky-KM-550!!!)

Cue Zephyr

Dec-01-2010, 8:18pm

My gosh, talk about good timing!
I answered your question without even knowing it!

So what do I do after I took it home (=now)?

Brent Hutto

Dec-01-2010, 8:25pm

Well I'd probably stay up until 2am playing fiddle tunes, then take it and put it next to my bed overnight. But that's just me...:disbelief:

Cue Zephyr

Dec-01-2010, 10:19pm

Well I actually fell asleep on the couch with the mando standing next to me. Now I'm just trying to get used to where the frets are, the fretting method (2 fret per finger thingy), the new left hand posture, etc.
Also trying to get used to the tuning in fifths - it actally feels more... I don't know, compared to the 'compound' guitar tuning.

I also love how far I can reach, how loud I can get it to sound and the size of the instrment. I already had trouble when I picked up the guitar again to practice a piece for a talent show!

I love this instrument!