Second fiddle/chopped liver

[F-2 Dave]

I was reading another active thread about why mandolin has never reached the popularity level of guitar, piano or violin. That got me to thinkin.


Like many mandolin players, I also play fiddle. In a band setting, I'll take both and switch back and forth as needed. I'm not a great fiddle player, but I'm not bad, play in tune, decent rhythm, etc.

Almost every time I play somewhere someone makes a comment about how much they enjoyed the fiddle music. No one comments about the mandolin, that is except to ask what it is.

Don't get me wrong, I like to play fiddle, but I love playing mandolin. I can practice for days or weeks on mandolin stuff, hardly giving fiddle a thought, and when show time comes, fiddle is the star. Even when it's not very good fiddle.

Does anybody else experience mandolin taking a back seat to fiddle?

[catmandu2]

Well, frankly, the fiddle/violin is sui generis and one of the great instruments. Mandolins are nice, too.

[Randi Gormley]

I don't indulge in fiddle, although I love to hear it. On the other hand, violin music is kind of 50/50 with me. It wouldn't surprise me to see that fiddle gets the nods. For people who only know the violin, fiddle music of any kind is a revelation. Plus, everybody knows what the instrument is, so they don't feel funny complimenting the player, since what they've just heard is all about the player.

[foldedpath]

I think there are several aspects to this, starting with the perception the general public (and most musicians) have about the fiddle being a difficult instrument to play well. Fiddlers get automatic respect, just for being able to make anything that doesn't sound like alley cats fighting each other. Fretted/plucked instruments require less initial skill to reach the "jamming with your friends" level. Because guitars are so common, and the mandolin is sometimes seen as a little guitar, it probably shares the perception that it's an easier instrument to play.

There are also some intrinsic advantages to an instrument with long sustain like the fiddle. More possibilities for "vocal" expression and articulation, compared to an instrument where every note dies quickly. It's why I'd rather listen to an electric guitar solo by Hendrix or B.B. King, than most rock guitar players when they "go acoustic" and play extended linear solos on acoustic guitar. Sustain allows the ability to shape the notes.

When I listen to a fiddler like Kevin Burke play Irish trad, I'm amazed at how he can express the music in a hundred different ways with finger and bow articulations. All I can do on my mandolin is "plink, plink, plink" with a few triplet ornaments and pull-offs. Lately, I've been thinking about getting a flute (which I used to dabble with, many years ago), as an alternative for playing Irish music. Maybe leave the mandolin for other genres, where it slots in a little more comfortably.

I'm being down on our favored instrument here, but I do enjoy playing mandolin for its own sake, and finding out where it works best. The envy sometimes works both ways; like when fiddlers and cello players do that "chop" thing with the bow, which never sounds quite like a mandolin chop. They're tryin' to steal our moves...
;)

[journeybear]

I think it has a lot to do with familiarity. A great many more people are familiar with fiddle, guitar, and banjo than mandolin, not to fail to mention dobro, dulcimer, ukulele, etc etc etc. I understand things were very different a hundred or so years ago, but that was before guitar and five-string banjo came along, and surely even then fiddle was popular. Mandolin enjoyed a resurgence of public awareness from time to time, following the impact of Bill Monroe, Jethro Burns, "Maggie May," and "Losing My Religion." But none of these has led to a sustained level of interest that compares with fiddle or guitar. Heck, even the banjo's popularity has waxed and waned, with bumps coming after its appearance in "The Beverly Hillbillies" and "Deliverance."

For the instrument to achieve that kind of recognition it would take someone to make a big impact, as Tiny Tim did with the ukulele, Ian Anderson did with the flute, and Weird Al did with the accordion. While someone who manages to break through on that level runs the risk of being pigeonholed as the instrumentation equivalent of a one-hit wonder, it would still be a nice and welcome change from the mandolin's current relative obscurity. I believe the instrument just has not yet been presented in a way that will make the general public stand up and take notice. To that end, if enough people are determined to see this come to pass, I am willing to make the sacrifices necessary to attain this long-deserved recognition for our beloved instrument. So if anyone wants to help fund the recording, production, and distribution of a mandolin-based album destined to forever enhance what I call mandolin consciousness, get in touch with me. I would be happy to do what I can to usher in another golden age of the mandolin. :mandosmiley:

As to the second half of the topic - what the #%$@ is wrong with chopped liver? If properly prepared it is delish!

[catmandu2]

See this thread: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?67535-grab-a-mandolin

[mandocrucian]

There are also some intrinsic advantages to an instrument with long sustain like the fiddle. More possibilities for "vocal" expression and articulation, compared to an instrument where every note dies quickly.

...When I listen to a fiddler like Kevin Burke play Irish trad, I'm amazed at how he can express the music in a hundred different ways with finger and bow articulations. All I can do on my mandolin is "plink, plink, plink" with a few triplet ornaments and pull-offs.

It's far more than the sustain. As you say there are all the slurred articulations, which you can also do to a fair extent on a mandolin using hammers and pull-off and slides if you don't have to contend with other players blasting your finesse to a semi-audible status. But sonically, you still get more results doing it on fiddle.

Being an unfretted instrument, the fiddle/viola/etc can tweak the pitches microtonally for greater consonance (or dissonance), play "neutral" notes which lie between the frets and all that. Again, you can do this on mandolin, though to a lesser extent, by string-bending, vibrato and such, but it requires a lot more work and higher levels of chops to do it in comparison. (And for less of a result).

Then there is the aspect of being in full control of the tone and volume of the notes throughout their duration, rather than being restricted to the initial pick attack. On a fiddle (or any wind-driven instrument) you can make the end of the note louder than the beginning of the note, or have it swell up and down. Again, there are advanced techniques which can allow you to alter the tone/volume of held notes while they are still ringing, but it's a whole lot more work to execute and, more-than-likely will be overlooked and/or unappreciated by the majority of the audience which wants to hear a stereotypical "plink plink plink" mandolin sound.

Put all those factors together, and the fiddle has expressive qualities which are beyond the additive, but multiplicative. All the aspects of a bowed, unfretted instrument which make it so difficult to play at the outset are the same things which lets it outperform a mandoin more and more as time progresses. The instant gratification of playing something more listenable (on mandolin) at the begining stages has a heavy price - the built in expressive limitations. Yes, you can get around some of those limits, but it requires a lot of work and the results still won't be as obvious/strong/etc as it would be on a fiddle.

Frankly, I can't understand why a mandolinist who becomes proficient (or is proficient) on a fiddle would choose to remain primarily a mandolinist. (I can understand fiddlers who double on mando, they just add an alternative sound to the arsenal). And I'm talking about folks like Skaggs, or O'Brien, Bush, (maybe) Ostroushko..... Sorry, but if I could do 1/3 on fiddle/viola what I can on mandolin, sonically and expressively I would proabably be on a par (or better) with the mando, and I would just run with it until the fiddle took over completely. (But rather than viola, I've gotten sidetracked with another sonically expressive instrument - flute - which has superceded any of the others in terms of what is currently played/practiced.)


Lately, I've been thinking about getting a flute (which I used to dabble with, many years ago), as an alternative for playing Irish music.

The wind-driven instruments, flutes & pipes, are at the heart and core of Irish music, imo.
NH

[catmandu2]

Complete agreement with Niles' short essay. Succinctly, generally, a string's relative range of vibrational potential effects a commensurate range of expression. Consider that the short scale and low action of a mandolin renders a particularly limited vibrational potential. This is why the stringed contrabass is one of the very most potentially expressive instruments.

One significant thing that the mando has over the fiddle, however, is its percussive element, and of course some polyphony. And, try playing reggae on a fiddle..

[catmandu2]

I believe the instrument just has not yet been presented in a way that will make the general public stand up and take notice.

IMO, the mando has benefited from a premiere presentation that no other bluegrass instrument has enjoyed--by its association with mega-pop-icon Jerry Garcia--and resultantly is probably at or near its zenith in popularity...at least in our lifetime. I can't envision a more potent opportunity to promote mando than by its association with Jerry. I think the fact that it hasn't transcended substantially beyond its current popularity is due to its relatively limited sonic potential. Similarly, Bela has taken the 5-string to its height of popularity (or, popular exposure). I don't expect that a new virtuoso will innovate style and technique on an acoustic instrument that will spur popularity beyond what we have seen, other than paroxysmic associations with mega-media figures (say, for example...if Michael Jackson had suddenly teamed up with Chris Thile and went on a mando-oriented writing, recording and touring spree over the course of a couple of years). OTOH, I guess, when access to music becomes even more convenient and immediate--when we have ipod implants and only need to think of a song list to download it--everything will be even more "popular."

I think the next big wave of popular instrumentation will be in higher technological and electronic form--something affording greater sonic range...maybe Chapman stick will make another go of it. Hell, maybe i-phone. Or...

64968

[journeybear]

IMO, the mando has benefited from a premiere presentation that no other bluegrass instrument has enjoyed--by its association with mega-pop-icon Jerry Garcia--and resultantly is probably at or near its zenith in popularity...at least in our lifetime.

I agree only as far as to apologize for having carelessly omitted David Grisman from my previous list. And if you're saying "It doesn't get any better than this," I sure hope you're wrong. The mandolin still languishes in near-obscurity, nowhere near anything resembling what its status could be. I still think the mandolin's popularity resembles a series of hills and valleys, as the several previously noted players and songs reached a degree of awareness among the general public beyond an obviously small group of people predisposed to be attuned to the instrument. Somehow these temporary peaks in popularity failed to sustain beyond temporary flurries of interest. I think a greater percentage of people were aware of the mandolin in the early- to mid-1970s than now, due to the influence of a major hit like Maggie May, David Grisman's contribution to two songs by Grateful Dead, and his subsequent innovative recordings. I believe it is currently in a doldrum, despite being used in commercials more often than ever. The mandolin is still seen as an oddity, and seldom used or understood outside of the bluegrass and country communities.


I think the fact that it hasn't transcended substantially beyond its current popularity is due to its relatively limited sonic potential.

I must disagree with your assessment. The instrument is much more versatile than commonly assumed. The general public is unaware of this because the majority of players stay within commonly accepted styles and applications.


Similarly, Bela has taken the 5-string to its height of popularity (or, popular exposure). I don't expect that a new virtuoso will innovate style and technique on an acoustic instrument that will spur popularity beyond what we have seen ...

Probably not, and kind of what I'm getting at - and keeping in mind a large part of Bela's innovation centers on his use of the electric banjo. The mandolin needs to be given a real rock voice for it to transcend its typical role and to be heard above the fray by the general public and seen in a new light. I think music has to be created for the mandolin and the mandolin has to play it in ways that push the envelope. What is needed is the personification of a perfect storm, someone to do what Hendrix, Garcia, and Dylan did with and for the guitar. Maybe such a person exists, maybe not. Maybe someone has to get the ball rolling so the rest of the Pantheon can materialize.

[Fretbear]

I watched a good documentary recently where they commented on and showed footage of the various classical violin virtuoso's from the last few hundred years or so (no footage of Paganini, etc., obviously)
I consider myself very well educated musically but was familiar with only a handful of the names of the masters that they showcased. The general public would have scored much worse than I did. To think that people in general are well versed about music in the way that is being discussed here (but with the mandolin being an exception) is an illusion. I personally know a few people (some who even play some guitar) who think that an "acoustic" guitar is a classical guitar and that a steel-string is called something else.
People just don't care about such things for the most part.
A few posters mentioned "plink-plink"; I will tell you one thing that does separate the violin from the mandolin, and it is that you will rarely (if ever) see someone take a stage with a violin who hasn't put in the requisite time required to master it. The same cannot be said of the mandolin. I have heard recordings of them played out of tune, and people flailing on a chord, producing basically noise. People on the street don't know or care who Ronny McCoury or Mike Compton or Alan Bibey (or Jason Carter, for that matter) are, and likely never will. It is not because they need to work harder or sell-out more, it is because they knew what they were getting into. As far as the mandolin lacking sustain, there is a little thing called double-stopped tremolo; she is waiting for you (along with your name, fame and tens of dollars) over in the woodshed ......

[foldedpath]

As far as the mandolin lacking sustain, there is a little thing called double-stopped tremolo; she is waiting for you (along with your name, fame and tens of dollars) over in the woodshed ......

Well, double-stop tremolo is a very genre-specific style. It's great in slower Bluegrass tunes, and it's a part of some world music traditions like Italian mandolin, but it isn't acceptable or appropriate in every style of music.

For example, it would not be considered appropriate, for the most part, in Irish traditional music. I'll sometimes use single note tremolo on a slow air, and that doesn't seem to bother people. But the harmony component of double and triple stop tremolo breaks some conventions about use of harmony in that genre. I'm talking more about session playing than band arrangements, where boundaries can be pushed a little more... but there are still conventions. Double stop tremolo can sound kind of hokey sometimes in other styles too, like jazz or rock mandolin. The world is wider than just Bluegrass music.

[Fretbear]

All the aspects of a bowed, unfretted instrument which make it so difficult to play at the outset are the same things which lets it outperform a mandolin more and more as time progresses. The instant gratification of playing something more listenable (on mandolin) at the beginning stages has a heavy price - the built in expressive limitations. Yes, you can get around some of those limits, but it requires a lot of work and the results still won't be as obvious/strong/etc as it would be on a fiddle.

I love the fiddle; I couldn't begin to describe how much I love to hear someone like Jason Carter or Kenny Baker play what I call "that blue fiddle". That said, I truly don't believe that the modern mandolin takes a back seat to it, or any other instrument. You could spend your whole life just exploring "new mandolin rhythm styles" which is not really even a subject of study for the violin, and which is an area where the mandolin by it's chordal nature gets an advantage. The mandolin can be played so many different ways, in so many different styles, I don't believe there is any type of music that a player couldn't carve himself out a niche in if he was determined to do so. It is for this reason that Monroe is owed so much, not just for what he did with his own mandolin, but for the musical and stylistic door that he kicked open for the rest of us.
In the most recent issue of The Fretboard Journal Roy Clark remarks about how the mandolin has now taken the lead ahead of the banjo and fiddle in bluegrass music, with so many virtuoso players pushing away at the boundaries. It is the very fact that it is a somewhat new and different sound, with so much potential for growth, that makes it such an exciting instrument to play and be a part of.

[Markus]

Frankly, I can't understand why a mandolinist who becomes proficient (or is proficient) on a fiddle would choose to remain primarily a mandolinist. (I can understand fiddlers who double on mando, they just add an alternative sound to the arsenal). And I'm talking about folks like Skaggs, or O'Brien, Bush, (maybe) Ostroushko..... Sorry, but if I could do 1/3 on fiddle/viola what I can on mandolin, sonically and expressively I would proabably be on a par (or better) with the mando, and I would just run with it until the fiddle took over completely.

I very much agree, but also note that when I saw Tim O'Brien play this summer at a festival [two solo shows] he didn't have a mandolin on stage with him. 6-string and fiddle, with major portions of both sets on fiddle.

While I love his songwriting, mandolin, and even guitar work - seeing him play the fiddle and sing [on the same song!] just absolutely blew me away. After six years attending the same festival every year - it's my most amazing memory from a long list of incredible folk and bluegrass performers.

If I was comfortable with a bowed instrument ... I'd be all over the fiddle.

And given my musical history [I've studied piano, single-reed and double-reed woodwinds (oboe, sax) then moved on to guitar/bass, then and now mandolin] .... it wouldn't surprise me if I started picking up my wife's fiddle in another decade ... there's only a few classes of instruments I don't play yet.

That said, the mandolin feels like the instrument I should have started playing at 6, instead of starting with piano and following a long, curved path to my ideal instrument. Oh well, I've loved every instrument I've studied extensively ... I just love the mando most.

If I could only clone myself, I'd be a whole band.

[journeybear]

... there is the aspect of being in full control of the tone and volume of the notes throughout their duration, rather than being restricted to the initial pick attack. On a fiddle (or any wind-driven instrument) you can make the end of the note louder than the beginning of the note, or have it swell up and down.

This is very true, and speaks to one of the main drawbacks of the mandolin's nature - the quick decay of the picked note. This is offset by double strings, each string producing sympathetic vibrations in the other, but it is not in the same league as instruments whose sound-producing method (bowing, wind, electricity) incorporates the ability to not only play a long note but furthermore increase the volume during the production of a note. The only way to do that with an acoustic mandolin is with tremolo; while this is actually a means of dividing a long note into a series of many short notes, the technique enables a player to use crescendo and diminuendo the same way as on a bowed or blown instrument (as well as varying the tempo within the context of a single note). While it is true this may not be considered proper in all genres, it is a technique that is available, and also innate to the instrument. Tremolo does not typically sound so natural on other plucked instruments, apart from flamenco guitar, unless it is done masterfully. Poorly used tremolo on guitar sounds to me every bit as "plinky" as can a single note on a mandolin. ;)

The exception to this is the electric mandolin, which affords a player a wider range of possibilities in this regard. The use of effects such as reverb and compression can greatly lengthen a note, and the technique of controlled feedback can not only do the same but also be used to produce increases in volume. At my solo gigs playing Italian music on an amplified acoustic mandolin (1917 Gibson A, BTW, not a bowlback - though I may someday get one for its greater sustain), I use reverb for sustain, but also "sweetening," though for long notes I use tremolo - and as often as I can, I must say. :mandosmiley: Niles did mention the use of vibrato, and while it is true that does add another color to the sonic pallette and can indeed slightly increase volume, the effect is not noticeable to the extent that it is with violin, and, as he also points out, such subtlety is easily overshadowed by other instruments. I can hear this because I am playing solo - and am listening. ;) I still think electric mandolin is where a sea change in public perception of the instrument's capabilities will come from, and acoustic mandolin - regardless of genre - will be relegated to novelty status outside of bluegrass, country, and Italian (and other nationalistic) musics, where people are accustomed to hearing it. I believe it is convention that keeps it from gaining in popularity more than anything else - convention in perception and convention in use, regardless of how well it is played.

[catmandu2]

I think a greater percentage of people were aware of the mandolin in the early- to mid-1970s than now, due to the influence of a major hit like Maggie May, David Grisman's contribution to two songs by Grateful Dead, and his subsequent innovative recordings. I believe it is currently in a doldrum, despite being used in commercials more often than ever. The mandolin is still seen as an oddity, and seldom used or understood outside of the bluegrass and country communities.


I agree with your last remark--and I don't see this changing in the consciousness of the general public, largely due to the inherent charactersitics of the instrument itself. Frankly, I see the accordian as having a better chance of succeeding as the next popular instrument on the scene, with its greater capacity for expression.

But what I obrserve is a huge wave of exposure emanating from Jerry's (and David's) association, and subsequent influences (viz., jam band popularity): likely, millions of persons being subsequently exposed to a significant body of work through recordings and regular touring performers (i.e., Grateful Dawg, the McCroury's, Sam Bush, etc.). This is different than a brief mando appearance on the outra of a pop hit, or even Riy Cooder's work on early Stones records.

I could be surprised, but I don't see anything on the horizon equalling or surpassing anything like Grateful Dawg, and the ensuing prevalence of mandolin in the jam band idiom, in terms of popularizing the mandolin.

[journeybear]

I wish I could agree with you - honest I do. But "huge" in this context is small potatoes relative to the other offerings at the buffet. Even if that was indeed the peak of mandolin consciousness in recent history (and it may well be), that was 35-40 years ago! :crying: People still ask "What is that?" more often than say "Nice mandolin playing" - even while playing Italian music, in a style with which it shares a centuries-long history. I still think the instrument's limitations arise from perception more than playing. When I say it is more versatile than people think, it's because people think it is only meant to be played in certain narrowly defined contexts.

BTW, the reason I mentioned "Maggie May" is that it was such an enormous mega-hit that for years afterward - decades, even - I was asked if I could play that. That was a real bump in the general public's awareness, in all likelihood a permanent change. Thank you, Ray Jackson! :mandosmiley:

[Roger Kunkel]

In an all acoustic setting, the fiddle is the usually loudest instrument. A good fiddler is holding the power instrument, usually playing melody, which also catches the ear. Fiddles are awesome.:) I wish I played mine better.

[catmandu2]

I wish I could agree with you - honest I do. But "huge" in this context is small potatoes relative to the other offerings at the buffet. Even if that was indeed the peak of mandolin consciousness in recent history (and it may well be), that was 35-40 years ago! :crying: People still ask "What is that?" more often than say "Nice mandolin playing" - even while playing Italian music, in a style with which it shares a centuries-long history. I still think the instrument's limitations arise from perception more than playing. When I say it is more versatile than people think, it's because people think it is only meant to be played in certain narrowly defined contexts.

Such as the outro on Maggie May...

Yes, there is much more to love about the mando. But what is going to surpass the numbers in audiences engaged by Phish, Jamie and JMP, STI, Sam Bush playing Bob Marley? I think you've got the best possible scenario going right now. Enjoy it. Or take up accordian...


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[journeybear]

Nope - it's rock mandolin. Just as Weird Al did for accordion, the mandolin needs someone to move it beyond its customary perception. As I have mentioned, I offer myself for this purpose. I have the songs, the chops (more or less), and most importantly, the imagination to see this through. All I need is the right producer/manager/publicist/distributor/Svengali. I know this sounds hard to believe - join the club of skeptics, they are legion - but consider this: once someone makes a big splash with the mandolin, most if not all mandolinists will benefit by association. It's in everyone's best interest. Email me, PM me, let's push the envelope.

[catmandu2]

Nope - it's rock mandolin. Just as Weird Al did for accordion, the mandolin needs someone to move it beyond its customary perception. As I have mentioned, I offer myself for this purpose. I have the songs, the chops (more or less), and most importantly, the imagination to see this through. All I need is the right producer/manager/publicist/distributor/Svengali. I know this sounds hard to believe - join the club of skeptics, they are legion - but consider this: once someone makes a big splash with the mandolin, most if not all mandolinists will benefit by association. It's in everyone's best interest. Email me, PM me, let's push the envelope.


Hmm...I play accordians, and I've enjoyed some Weird Al on youtube...but I've honestly never seen the two together. I presume that there's some schtick that I'm missing..

Rock is clearly the most popular idiom (in terms of engaging the most number of listeners). The mando is fortunate to be involved in this milieu for its future popularization. Personally, I like JMP, and John Abercrombie. But it sounds like you've got some good stuff...looking forward to hearing it.

[Schlegel]

Hmm...I play accordians, and I've enjoyed some Weird Al on youtube...but I've honestly never seen the two together. I presume that there's some schtick that I'm missing.

I'm guessing you are younger than 40? If so, you missed the early Al when it was just him and his accordion in the bathroom.

[journeybear]

I saw Weird Al at the height of his popularity, and it was a great show. He rocked, his band rocked, his schtick worked (and he didn't overdo it), all in all an enjoyable and memorable experience. This may not translate to youtube - even after seeing a bunch of his videos I didn't really get it till I saw him live. I cite him as an example of someone who did something previously unthinkable because he had a vision and made it work. I firmly believe the same can be done for mandolin, and the only reason it hasn't been done is it hasn't been done - yet.

[foldedpath]

The mandolin is still seen as an oddity, and seldom used or understood outside of the bluegrass and country communities.

Add the OldTime, Irish trad, Brazilian Choro, and Classical communities to that list. When you add all the traditional music genres where mandolins are used (including Bluegrass where it's more central than most), the overall situation for mandolin isn't so bad.

There is no indication that mandolin is becoming less popular in these traditional styles. If anything, interest has been increasing recently, based on what I've seen in my area anyway. I was at an OldTime party/jam yesterday, where 5 of the 12 musicians brought mandolins, as either primary or secondary instruments along with their guitars and fiddles (actually, make that 3 mandolins and one OM).

As long as these traditional music genres remain viable, the mandolin has a home. At the risk of dashing Journeybear's hopes for rock stardom, it doesn't necessarily need to dress up in sequins and take the big rock stage. Too much exposure can be a bad thing, too.
;)

[catmandu2]

I have difficulty imagining a better scenario for the mandolin--and associated trad forms--than what we've enjoyed over the past couple of decades. Is there a bigger popular culture figure than Jerry who is going to become involved with mandolin and trad forms to that degree, and be in a better position to experiment and promote its music? My guess is, not in the foreseeable future. I'm no deadhead but I understand the range of the influence. The so-called "jam band" is one of the most popular as well as eclectic forms we see today, and the mandolin is a primary player. When you go to a STI show and there's a rack of mandolins of all shapes and sorts about to be employed in all kinds of music from trad bluegrass to Coltrane's Impressions to spaced-out jamming, what's not to like? (from a mandolin enthusiast's perspective).

[journeybear]

Well, yes, foldedpath, if you add all those genres together ... but that's a lot of statistical manipulation, and you are adding a couple in which mandolin was a later addition to the instrumentation, however suitable it may be considered by its practitioners (and I could be wrong, not being too familiar with choro). And keep in mind the number and frequency of these usages are far less than those for guitar, and let's not forget violin - which was really part of the OP, as I recall. It's been a while, and we have wandered a bit ... :grin:

I don't really need to be a rock star, BTW, but it seems to me someone has to go there with the mandolin, for the instrument to make a quantum leap in popularity. I'll humbly take on the task, if greatness must e forced on someone, so to speak, but I do hope others will follow in my wake, ones who can blow me off the stage. I don't need to be the best, or the greatest, but I wouldn't mind being the first. :mandosmiley:

But cat, I don't understand why you keep mentioning Garcia. If you mean Grisman, say so. Jerry played banjo and a bit of guitar, but as far as I know not mandolin. :confused: And boy oh boy, I can sure imagine a better situation for the mandolin than the present, regardless of how much better today may be than some point - pick one, any one - in the past. It's not a glorious time now long gone that keeps me going, it's the as-yet-unrealized potential of the future! :mandosmiley:

[mandocrucian]

Continuing in my "grand scheme" to win more mandofriends and win the hearts and minds of.......:))

If your thinking is shaped from being confined/trapped within the mando (or more extremely - the bluegrass mando) equivalent of a snow globe (whether you are even aware that you are in the globe or not), there are elements of music and playing that don't really exist for you. If low def TV is all that your eyes can process, a HD picture doesn't seem any different to you. Or, Why buy/drink anything beyond Thunderbird if you only have $5 tastebuds, and you can't taste a difference?

How the notes are connected (and how they are tweaked tonally or intonationally) are just as important as the notes themselves. That's what "bowings" and tonguings are all about. You simply can not avoid those aspects if you are playing bowed instruments or wind instruments. But mandolin - it may be irrelevant to the every-note-with-a-pickstroke mindset. So you train your brain not to hear anything else except that. And then there's the aspect of microtonal intonation adjustments - which fiddle players do all the time....which is why the doublestops on a fiddle can sound so much sweeter than on a mando.

If it's something you don't "hear", not doing it, or the trouble involved in doing it, on your instrument never becomes an issue. But if it is, and then you pick up a fiddle or flute or... you realize that can pull so much more out of the tune on those other instruments. I'd rather play "Hector The Hero" with my limited (3-year) flute ability than on mando (30+ years) because I'm already getting more of what I want out of the tune. I don't really play viola, but I'll pick up my wife's and I get far more of the Swarbrickisms on something like "The Banks of the Sweet Primroses" on it than I can pull out of the mandolin. Ironically, if I play that same tune on flute, it comes out with the Swarbrick phrasing and dynamics as well...cause that's what's in my head.

That stuff matters to me when playing simply because it just doesn't sound "right" if it's not there.

Don't you detect a definite difference of opinion between posts from the multi-instrumentalists and the mostly-mandolinists regarding all these aspects?


not only play a long note but furthermore increase the volume during the production of a note. The only way to do that with an acoustic mandolin is with tremolo;

Untrue. There are actually ways to get "volume knob" and wah-wah pedal effects on an acoustic mandolin without electronic assistance. It's a highly advanced technique (I'm not going to explain how it's done). You probably think it's baloney, but there are former students and NH workshop attendees who can attest to the reality of this if they choose to come forward. (at the risk of getting flak from people who view me as being worse than Jane Fonda, Charlie Manson and Michael Moore all rolled into one). I had a guy attend a 2-day workshop in Chicago back in 2000 tell me that if he had mentioned at IBMA that he was also going to my workshop, he might as well have painted a bullseye on his back. There are people on Comando that hate me for daring to refute the idea that the F5 is the ultimate instrument or that there was any music beyond BG or for talking about Andy Irvine, Ray Jackson, Swarb, Cooder, JPJ etc.


Frankly, I see the accordian as having a better chance of succeeding as the next popular instrument on the scene, with its greater capacity for expression.

Accordions are a prominant (sometimes the dominant) instrument in plenty of places around the world, but just not in mainstream America thanks to Lawrence Welk, "Lady Of Spain", Weird Al, Urkel, and all the other superstereo-nerd-types that have consigned it to a joke/novelty/square status. As opposed to: Cajun, Tex-Mex/norteno, Quebecois, Irish,....France, Scandinavia, Britain (melodeons and consertinas). Bandoneons in Argentina, more accordions in Brazil, Columbia and South America. It's in South African and Malagasy (Madagascar) music as well. A mainstay in Bulgarian music; not uncommon in Greece.


Nope - it's rock mandolin. Just as Weird Al did for accordion, the mandolin needs someone to move it beyond its customary perception. As I have mentioned, I offer myself for this purpose. I have the songs, the chops (more or less), and most importantly, the imagination to see this through.

Good luck on that, but I think you're dreaming. But, if it's something you just have to get out of your system....you gotta do what you gotta do. I did it in the early 90's with what I consider a very good record (On Fire & Ready! (http://www.elderly.com/recordings/items/MANDOCRUCIAN03.htm)) and a roster of (relatively speaking) name players: Ann Rabson (piano) & Gaye Adegbalola (vocals) from the blues group Saffire, bassist Ralph Gordon (ex-Trapezoid), Richard Thompson (electric guitar and Fender-4-string), Martin Simpson (guitars), Peter Eri (Hungarian kontra-viola from the band Muszikas). The drummer/flutist was a jazz/Latin guy from Puerto Rico, the fiddler (Jenny Edenborn) from the Colonial Williamsburg VA taverns - both great players who are among the handful of players that I love playing with. The album made the rounds of indie labels and never went anywhere or got picke up for various given reasons - too eclectic, hard to market, you're not on the festival circuit, not bluegrass enough, blah blah blah. The guy from Shanachie told me he thought the Hendrix-meets-Tull "Fire" was "a gimmick" cause it was unabashedly acoustic rock and not some newgrassified perversion. (I hope he gets Parkinson's.) People like Gaudreau, Bill Kirchen, Mike Doucet and Arto Jarvela liked it and gave me blurbs to use and got some good reviews; but in retospect, never sold enough (though probably passed breaking even) to have warranted doing it from the biz side and the time and effort. But, some things you've got to get out of your system,..... once.


If I was comfortable with a bowed instrument ... I'd be all over the fiddle. .... it wouldn't surprise me if I started picking up my wife's fiddle in another decade ... there's only a few classes of instruments I don't play yet.

My advice: Don't wait too long; do it now so you won't regret not starting earlier. :crying: Yeah, I know, it's always a drag to go back to square one, but the sooner you get confortable with it, the sooner you can expand (or better fulfill) your musical ambitions.

NH


someone has to go there with the mandolin, for the instrument to make a quantum leap in popularity.
http://system.barflyclub.com/include/image/events/27804b6c-3114-4d0f-a2ce-192f53375407.jpeg
Nash The Slash

[catmandu2]

But cat, I don't understand why you keep mentioning Garcia.

Is there a bigger popular culture figure who has been involved with mandolin and trad forms to that degree, and in a better position to experiment and promote its music? As I mentioned, these days, the way something becomes popularized (exponentially) is via a pop star's endorsement or association (media exposure).

I'm no deadhead but I understand the range of the influence. The so-called "jam band" is one of the most popular as well as eclectic forms we see today, and the mandolin is a primary player. When you go to a SCI show and there's a rack of mandolins of all shapes and sorts about to be employed in all kinds of music from trad bluegrass to Coltrane's Impressions to spaced-out jamming, what's not to like? (from a mandolin enthusiast's perspective).

[JeffD]

Niles, while I can't argue with a single point you make, I also find myself rejecting the ideas. The problem with the mandolin's acceptance is the mandolin?!? You make it sound like its only a few steps up from a kalimba.

Your post has the feeling of Norse mythology, where Thor loses a drinking contest because Loki fixed it so that he was in reality trying to drink the ocean. He didn't know he was in a Norse myth and losing with honor and despite ultimate honest effort was more imporant than winning.

Well anyway, its not up to me. I have neither the chops nor anything all that interesting to say with music.


What about this argument, however, the expressive ability of an instrument is changed by its popularity - and were the mandolin to become pre-eminant (again) ways would be found and exploited to say all the stuff everyone wants to say with music on the mandolin.

A chicken and egg question.

[catmandu2]

Accordions are a prominant (sometimes the dominant) instrument in plenty of places around the world, but just not in mainstream America thanks to Lawrence Welk, "Lady Of Spain", Weird Al, Urkel, and all the other superstereo-nerd-types that have consigned it to a joke/novelty/square status. As opposed to: Cajun, Tex-Mex/norteno, Quebecois, Irish,....France, Scandinavia, Britain (melodeons and consertinas). Bandoneons in Argentina, more accordions in Brazil, Columbia and South America. It's in South African and Malagasy (Madagascar) music as well. A mainstay in Bulgarian music; not uncommon in Greece.


But they're becoming popular and seemingly almost ubiquitous in the burgeoning roots-Americana scene, too. I know that all of my folk bands are wanting me to break it out...a la the Gourds, et al. It's a voice, not unlike trad stringed instruments, that's been typically overlooked and underutilized--by some of the mechansims you've stated--that is becoming "rediscovered." They're far more versatile than the stereotyped experience, and have tremendous sonic potential. See Pauline Oiliveros - Deep Listening, et al.)

[journeybear]

Well, thank you, Niles, for another well-written and thorough contribution. I am curious about the technique you mention, and if it is something other than left-hand vibrato, I would be very interested to learn more. I suspect, though, that this will tend to be too subtle to withstand being overwhelmed by other sounds in a live setting, as you mentioned in a previous post.

I'm for the electric approach; I've made that clear. And while the album you made sounds intriguing, it seems to me that approach is too diffuse to accomplish what I am after. My dream band is a power trio - mandolin, bass, drums - and as far as I'm concerned, this is the only way to show the world what can be done this way. Nothing else to detract nor distract from the mandolin, so that listeners will have to understand that what they are hearing is coming from that little thing. Whatever it's called.

It just seems to me that it's wrong somehow that I should have to drive 100 miles each way to play Italian music (however enjoyable this is) in order to a-l-m-o-s-t support myself in my chosen profession, after 42 years of it. Questionable career choice? Feh! Things should be easier for mandolinists.

[mandocrucian]

What about this argument, however, the expressive ability of an instrument is changed by its popularity - and were the mandolin to become pre-eminant (again) ways would be found and exploited to say all the stuff everyone wants to say with music on the mandolin.

Popularity is a result of expressiveness. And the most popular instrument in the world is the human voice.


I'm for the electric approach; I've made that clear. And while the album you made sounds intriguing, it seems to me that approach is too diffuse to accomplish what I am after. My dream band is a power trio - mandolin, bass, drums - and as far as I'm concerned, this is the only way to show the world what can be done this way. Nothing else to detract nor distract from the mandolin, so that listeners will have to understand that what they are hearing is coming from that little thing.

I take it that you've never heard the disc. (Then again, how many are/were curious enough to do so? They probably think its more "normal" playing ala Bluegrass Up The Neck.) More than half the album had no guitar. The mando/bass/drums/harmonica tracks are, to my way of thinking, an (acoustic) power-trio with an added lead voice. Mando drums bass were the foundation of how the arrangements were put together. Actually, it was getting the mandolin and drums in synch first - once that groove was sorted out, then the bass was brought in and had to play to that. When trying to work it out with bass and drums at the same, too often, the bass and drums would revert back to stock rhythms, playing to each other more than to what the mando was doing.

While it is predominantly acoustic instruments (though some electric guitar/mando from RT, and some e-bowed guitar & mandolectra), the delivery is rock/blues/R&B/rockabilly. When the intent is firmly in the mind, whether you've plugged in or not isn't really an issue. When you've freed your mind, your hands will follow!

NH

[journeybear]

While it is predominantly acoustic instruments (though some electric guitar/mando from RT, and some e-bowed guitar & mandolectra), the delivery is rock/blues/R&B/rockabilly. When the intent is firmly in the mind, whether you've plugged in or not isn't really an issue. When you've freed your mind, your hands will follow!

This really sounds like something very much in my wheelhouse, judging by the genres. My only quibble - if it really was that - was with the number of players (I'm counting six beyond the mandolin/bass/drums core. Obviously, you and I (and anyone) envisions different music and instrumentation for their project,* and if you have players as you mention handy, it would be a shame not to use them. I would myself, if I could - particularly RT - just not on the first album. ;) I really want something akin to Jimi Hendrix Experience, Cream, Ten Years After (without the keyboard). Think Page/Jones/Bonham with mandolin instead of guitar.

Mmm .... my mind is pretty free, it's the hands that lag behind a bit ... :grin:



*Currently out of stock.

[mandocrucian]

My only quibble - if it really was that - was with the number of players (I'm counting six beyond the mandolin/bass/drums core.
Not everyone plays on the same tracks. There were several distinct sessions. Most of the time it was just 4 (or 5) instruments. And often the arrangements staggered the entries of instruments, starting out sparse and gradually adding voices into the mix (or dropping in an instrument for a solo ride). The basic tracks with Simpson were mando/fiddle/guitar and the other instruments added later in another studio.

Incidentally, most of the tracks were developed as solo mando vehicles. Add the bass/drums underneath for more oomph/depth. Then bring in another lead voice (or two) for sonic variety - but it's still basically the trio.

w/Phil Wiggins & Ann Rabson
Fire: mando, harmonica, bass, drums, (overdubbed) flute
I'm Ready: mando, harmonica, bass, drums, piano, (overdubbed) flute solo
Low Down Blues: mando, harmonica, bass, drums, piano,
Honky Tonk Blues: mando, harmonica, bass, drums
Summertime Blues: mando, harmonica, bass, drums
Mandocrucian Hop: Mando, harmonica, bass, drums, piano

w/ M.Simpson* & Jenny Edenborn
Roll In My Sweet Baby's Arms: mando, slide guitar*
Long March To Melbourne: mando, fiddle, guitar*, bass, drums
Little Sadie: mando, fiddle, bass, drums, kontra-viola, guitar* & slide guitar*
Lake Arthur Stomp: mando, fiddle, rhythm guitar, elec.bass, drums

with RT
One Way Out: mando, elec gtr, acoustic gtr, bass, drums
Farther Along: mando, fender 4-string mando, ac guitar, bass, drums
Tyrant's Jig (1): mando, elec guitar, bodhran
Tyrant's Jig (2): mando, elec guitar, bass, drums

NH solo (w/*Jerry Rockwell)
Le dejuener de la reine: 3 mandolins, OM
Black Rock: solo (wah-wah) mandolin
Umpikuja: *dulcimer, 2 electric 5-string mandolas, OM, *e-bow electric guitar drones, ultra-low synth drone


*Currently out of stock. If that means that Elderly is out, you can also order direct from moi. (e-mail me)

NH

[catmandu2]

Popularity is a result of expressiveness.

Have to disagree here. Many other factors are at play determining "popularity"--the most primary being promotion.

If that were true, everyone here would be well acquainted with the likes of Joelle Leandre, Peter Kowald, William Parker, Albert Ayler, Charles Gayle, John Zorn, Pauline Oliveros, Cecil Taylor, et al...and avant garde jazz and art music would be our common vernacular.

[journeybear]

Not everyone plays on the same tracks.

D'OH!!! Of course. What was I thinking? Apparently I wasn't. :))

[catmandu2]

How the notes are connected (and how they are tweaked tonally or intonationally) are just as important as the notes themselves. That's what "bowings" and tonguings are all about. You simply can not avoid those aspects if you are playing bowed instruments or wind instruments...

Quite so. Issues of attack, shape, decay, intonation, overtone...all things that wind/string players have considerably more control over than fretted string players..

Don't mean to ruffle feathers here, but really, the mando is a great folk instrument that some folks do really well with in diverse genres. And I love it too. But must I dredge up the "trombone vs mando" argument again? :sleepy:

[mandocrucian]

If that were true, everyone here would be well acquainted with the likes of Joelle Leandre, Peter Kowald, William Parker, Albert Ayler, Charles Gayle, John Zorn, Pauline Oliveros, Cecil Taylor, et al...and avant garde jazz and art music would be our common vernacular.


Shades of Dizzy Ratstein, Batman!

Yeah, but weren't we talking about the popularity of various musical instruments, not individual players or particular genres? :)
http://www.yunchtime.net/misc/dizzy_ratstein.jpg

for the entire Robert Armstrong "Dizzy Ratstein" strip from Mickey Rat Comix #3 (1980).......
Dizzy Ratstein, page 1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20977119@N08/4295394301/)
Dizzy Ratstein, page 2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20977119@N08/4295394301/)
Dizzy Ratstein, page 3 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20977119@N08/4295394479/in/photostream/)
Dizzy Ratstein, page 4 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20977119@N08/4295394515/in/photostream/)
Dizzy Ratstein, page 5 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20977119@N08/4296140314/)


the mando is a great folk instrument that some folks do really well with in diverse genres.

And in all those diverse genres, there is a fiddle doing even "well-er" :)) (the point of the OP, too!)

[catmandu2]

Yeah, but weren't we talking about the popularity of various musical instruments, not individual players or particular genres?

Well, if Justin Beiber posed with a mandolin (or jaw harp, erhu, or limberjack...), it would gain immense popularity overnight. I was only thinking of some of the most expressive playing I've heard, and the most expressive idiom, irrespective of instrument.

For your enjoyment:

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[journeybear]

OK, well, we have already seen how much Milla Jovovich posing with a mandolin affected its popularity - not a whit, AFAIK - irrespective of how this affected her popularity, around here, anyway. :)) If he were to learn how to play it - or she, for that matter - that might be different. ;) I would like to point out it's the right size for him at this stage of his physical development.

Meanwhile, thank you so much for posting nearly an hour's worth of videos. :disbelief: I'll get right on that. :whistling:

PS: Thanks for the Dizzy Ratstein, NH. Great stuff. My favorite quip of his was, after shredding everyone's minds at a session and getting the usual reaction of blank stares and rejection (and possibly ejection): "They just didn't dig the coolness." (Or something like that; it's been a long while.)

[billkilpatrick]

If I was comfortable with a bowed instrument ... I'd be all over the fiddle.

that's the rub - i've been sawing away at mine for months now and the thought occurred that maybe this is never going to get any better. i can carry a tune, play some songs in 3rd position but that comfortable, nice and easy shuffle of the bow arm simply isn't there ... yet.

[journeybear]

Don't give up, bill. If I recall correctly, you are out in the country, so as long as the dogs don't mind, who's to bother? ;) And remember - little kids learn to play via the Suzuki Method, so an experienced adult should be able to also. If you are trying this on your own, you might want to consider a lesson or two - there must be something expert violinists know about the basics to make it look as easy as they do.

[catmandu2]

Meanwhile, thank you so much for posting nearly an hour's worth of videos. :disbelief: I'll get right on that.

Suggestion: cut back on some of your Milla Jovovich (?)...you'll have more time for this.

But yeah, I got carried away, eh..

[journeybear]

Sorry, not listening to her either. But at least there is mandolin on her album - just not played by her. :)

OK, enough chit chat, must go actually play some ... :mandosmiley:

[walt33]

For people who only know the violin, fiddle music of any kind is a revelation.

So true. When I was in the fourth grade, my school's band director suggested I might want to play the violin. Having heard only "violin" music like 1001 Strings and Mantovani at home, I roundly rejected the idea. If only I had known what ITM or bluegrass was back then, my musical life might been jump started then and there.

[JeffD]

Quite so. Issues of attack, shape, decay, intonation, overtone...all things that wind/string players have considerably more control over than fretted string players..

Don't mean to ruffle feathers here, but really, the mando is a great folk instrument that some folks do really well with in diverse genres.

Again, my ability to factually argue with you is hiding under a turtle right now, but I know that emotionally I don't want to accept what you are saying.

[catmandu2]

Again, my ability to factually argue with you is hiding under a turtle right now, but I know that emotionally I don't want to accept what you are saying.

Well, I know it sounds bad on a mando site. But, the first part is only physics--Segovia raised his action to attain greater range of expression, but still, a fretted, plucked instrument has inherent limitations; the second is only my opinion, of course. I don't mean to sound like I'm trashing mandos...but, this topic is about comparisons, no?

What is limiting about mandos is also what makes them great: low action, high tension, bright sound.. When you don't want to work for tone on fiddle, doublebass, or guitar for that matter, the mando is a wonderful respite.

[JeffD]

Popularity is a result of expressiveness. And the most popular instrument in the world is the human voice.



Oh I would love that to be true. But I have the strong cynical impression that all it would take is one of the well known semi-sober scantily-clad pop singer-ettes to permenantly pick up a mandolin and legions of followers would jump.

Paul McCartney appeals to the older pop music types, Eddie Vedder to the younger angry anti-pop contingent. Each caused a bump anyway.

But to come back to your arguement, you would likely reply the mandolin isn't expressive enough for pop stars to pick up for more than a novelty musical moment. So again, I don't want to agree, but I feel kind of like a tongue drum player arguing parity with the marimba.

[JeffD]

And in all those diverse genres, there is a fiddle doing even "well-er"

Too true, %%$#$##@&^&^!!!

[catmandu2]

Too true, %%$#$##@&^&^!!!

Despair not: there are some things that mando does better than fiddle--anything where its percussiveness can be utilized effectively. True, a violin can be pounded and made to sound percussively, and render polyphony in higher positions--but not as conveniently.

Niles or someone may have previously mentioned this, but let's remember that these fretted stringed instruments are essentially rhythm instruments (percussion)...so a direct comparison to a string instrument--similar as they may seem in some respects--isn't really fair. Beyond scale length and tuning intervals, they're as different as can be. The limitations of fretted strings can be mitigated by electrification--but we're talking about a different animal, then.

[Steve Ostrander]

There are more mandolin builders now, and mandolin sales are probably higher than ever. But that's due to us Boomers, because every 16 year old kid still wants to be a guitar hero. Hey, maybe that's what we need --a Mandolin Hero game!!

[catmandu2]

Quite. I don't understand the ennui over the mandolin not being the instrument chosen by Elvis...or the singing cowboys, Cash, Chuck Berry, Hendrix, or Segovia..? I guess it's appropriate for a mando site, and during Thanksgiving break. I'm having fun.

[journeybear]

Hey, maybe that's what we need --a Mandolin Hero game!!

Oh no, not that again! PLEASE no one post the silly thing - it's a parody. Google it - you'll see what I mean.

I will say, though, that while busking with my MandoBird through battery-powered amp (and wah-wah), a few times I have been asked, "What is that, Guitar Hero?" :disbelief: Guess they noticed the similar size, but not the existence (or number) of strings, nor the absence of a freaking computer! :)) :crying: :)) :crying:

[catmandu2]

Guess they noticed the similar size...

As the great philosopher Andre Agassi has taught us: image is everything. Ergo, the mandolin--regardless of how many pedals, effects, amps and what nots you run it through--will never be more than what it appears to be: a weenie-esque guitar thingy.

[F-2 Dave]

Thanks to all who responded. It really wasn't a question about trying to rationalize the pecking order of the musical universe as much as me venting about a pet peeve. But, it made for some interesting reading over the weekend. Now don't get me started on pennywhistles.

[Paul Kotapish]

Niles summed it up pretty well re the relative merits of the fiddle/violin vs the mandolin.

And there is also the issue that outside of bluegrass, brother duets, and Italian music, mandolin will always be considered--by some, anyway--to be a novelty instrument. Although most of us here in the cafe would probably agree that there is an appropriate--even elegant--role for our eight-stringed buddy in the context of old-time, traditional Irish, Scandinavian, jazz, blues, and good old rock 'n' roll, many folks out there just consider us nuts and will always regard the mandolin an interloper--or a quaint curisosity--in those idioms.

And FWIW, I get more positive feedback from the audience re the mandolin and its sound when I am playing in groups that don't also have fiddles in them. Euphonia, for example, features mandolin with accordion plus acoustic guitar and standup bass. For all the slagging that accordions get around here, it's one of the great instruments to pair with a mandolin. To my ear, it works much better than with a fiddle, and you can do all the same kind of musical voicings in terms of unison playing, harmonies, counterpoint, etc. that you might do with a fiddle, but the voices remain a little more distinct. To hear some amazing combos with mandolin and accordion, check out Patrick Vaillant's recordings with (Italian accordionist) Ricardo Tesi or (Basque wizard) Kepa Junkera.

And with Wake the Dead, I think a lot of our best stuff includes the pairing of mandolin with Irish (uillean) pipes rather than the fiddle. Along those lines we've had an interesting development. Any set of pipes is typically limited to a set of keys where the notes, fingering, and intonation work well. The piper in WTD--Kevin Carr--just got a set of digital pipes that sound really good--and convincing--in any key. That bizarre little twist of technology has just opened up a bunch of new sonic options for us.

Don't get me wrong. I love playing with fiddlers and I love the sound of the mandolin interacting with the fiddle, but I think it will always play second banana in that setting.

[catmandu2]

For all the slagging that accordions get around here, it's one of the great instruments to pair with a mandolin. To my ear, it works much better than with a fiddle, and you can do all the same kind of musical voicings in terms of unison playing, harmonies, counterpoint, etc. that you might do with a fiddle, but the voices remain a little more distinct. To hear some amazing combos with mandolin and accordion, check out Patrick Vaillant's recordings with (Italian accordionist) Ricardo Tesi or (Basque wizard) Kepa Junkera.


Nice...some love for the accordian.

And for all the slagging that I give to mandolins, I do recognize them as King of double-course, fretted stringed instruments, bar none.



It really wasn't a question about trying to rationalize the pecking order of the musical universe as much as me venting about a pet peeve. But, it made for some interesting reading over the weekend.

I'm glad we got that settled ! ;)

[journeybear]

As the great philosopher Andre Agassi has taught us: image is everything. Ergo, the mandolin--regardless of how many pedals, effects, amps and what nots you run it through--will never be more than what it appears to be: a weenie-esque guitar thingy.

So why bother?

[Bertram Henze]

A story, repeatedly told, in short:

- son of classical musicians gets a violin + teacher for his 10th birthday
- hates it but endures 9 years of violin lessons - stops playing music completely afterwards
- discovers ITM and wants to play again, but has no instrument (fiddle's definitely no option no sir)
- sees a mandolin in a shop window and falls in love with it
- discovers that he can reuse his violin left-hand technique and happily plays music ever after
- goes on to marry the woman who saw him playing at a gig

Now guess which instrument he will put in front?
Image is nothing when your own heart is at stake.

[billkilpatrick]

A story, repeatedly told, in short:

- son of classical musicians gets a violin + teacher for his 10th birthday
- hates it but endures 9 years of violin lessons - stops playing music completely afterwards
- discovers ITM and wants to play again, but has no instrument (fiddle's definitely no option no sir)
- sees a mandolin in a shop window and falls in love with it
- discovers that he can reuse his violin left-hand technique and happily plays music ever after
- goes on to marry the woman who saw him playing at a gig

Now guess which instrument he will put in front?
Image is nothing when your own heart is at stake.

you forgot the bit about where she kisses the frog

[Bertram Henze]

you forgot the bit about where she kisses the frog

:grin: actually there was some kind of frog involved, but that's a complication not driving the plot I had to leave out.

[catmandu2]

Image is nothing when your own heart is at stake.

Well, I'm willing to entertain the possibility that Andre's credo could be erroneous, at any rate. ;)

[billkilpatrick]

:grin: actually there was some kind of frog involved, but that's a complication not driving the plot I had to leave out.

well actually ... bearing in mind the bow's construction - she didn't kiss the frog, she got her man instead!

[JeffD]

Despair not: there are some things that mando does better than fiddle--anything where its percussiveness can be utilized effectively. True, a violin can be pounded and made to sound percussively, and render polyphony in higher positions--but not as conveniently.

Niles or someone may have previously mentioned this, but let's remember that these fretted stringed instruments are essentially rhythm instruments (percussion)...so a direct comparison to a string instrument--similar as they may seem in some respects--isn't really fair. Beyond scale length and tuning intervals, they're as different as can be. The limitations of fretted strings can be mitigated by electrification--but we're talking about a different animal, then.

I am going to take a stab at an arguement here. I think there is validity to what you say for the mandolin as it is being played in the folk/ot/bg world. But I think the mandolin in classical music and jazz shows the insrument is capable of so much more. Tradition gets in the way, I suppose. Mandolin is perhaps not as expressive as the violin, but that doesn't mean it is not capable of doing what needs to be done, when in the right hands.

The easiest example I can grab right now is jazz, where the playing of Jethro shows the mandolin as a full fledged option, the equal in its way to a guitar or piano or bass or sax or trumpet. In its way. It can't do what those others do, but, at least in Jethro's hands the others can't do what the mandolin can do. You don't get the impression, listening to Jethro, that it would sound better on some other instrument, or that the mandolin limits Jethro's ability to do what he wants musically. No backwater diatonic cigarbox egg shaker novelty jaw harp kalimba tongue drum thingie, but a man amongst men, an instrument among instruments.

[catmandu2]

There's no doubt that the instrument possesses sufficient polyphonic capability--the notes are all there. What I'm more addressing here is the sound of the instrument. Roughly speaking, it's the stringed instrument version of the snare drum (not pejoratively--simply a function of a set of closely spaced strings and a cracking resonance)--which of course is why it's wonderfully suited for bluegrass, gypsy jazz, rag, etc. Same thing with the banjo: although it can play the music of diverse genres, I'd still prefer to have my Bach, et al., on a "concert" instrument with a sonority of greater range and complexity, and leave the banjos and mandos for folk, ragtime, etc.

I'm sure Segovia had quite a challenge presenting the guitar as a concert instrument--it being essentially a percussion instrument. But the guitar--with its greater tonal range--is somewhat more anomalous in this regard, and possesses a sonority perhaps more consonant with diverse music. Myself, after growing up with Bach on the guitar, I've tried some Bach repertoire on mandolin, and I've never enjoyed it. For me, it's just too thin. I like the violin partitas and sonatas, but that's totally different (as the discussion here addresses). Generally, I don't much care for the bright sound of the mandolin in most genres--but, I play contrabass, tenor sax, drums, detuned 12-string guitars, among other things, so I'm attracted to big, earthy tones anyway. The bright, peppy tone of the mando is fine, but usually not my first choice. Generally, I'll play the same repertoire on fiddle, accordians/concertina, or tenor banjo, and defer to mandolin if I'm unable to execute on these, feeling lazy, or chopping BG. I guess this is why my mando rarely leaves its case.*

*FWIW, I do play my dolas and CBOMs with some greater frequency.

[JeffD]

There's no doubt that the instrument possesses sufficient polyphonic capability--the notes are all there. What I'm more addressing here is the sound of the instrument. Roughly speaking, it's the stringed instrument version of the snare drum (not pejoratively--simply a function of a set of closely spaced strings and a cracking resonance)--which of course is why it's wonderfully suited for bluegrass, gypsy jazz, rag, etc. Same thing with the banjo: although it can play the music of diverse genres, I'd still prefer to have my Bach, et al., on a "concert" instrument with a sonority of greater range and complexity, and leave the banjos and mandos for folk, ragtime, etc.

I'm sure Segovia had quite a challenge presenting the guitar as a concert instrument--it being essentially a percussion instrument. But the guitar--with its greater tonal range--is somewhat more anomalous in this regard, and possesses a sonority perhaps more consonant with diverse music. Myself, after growing up with Bach on the guitar, I've tried some Bach repertoire on mandolin, and I've never enjoyed it. For me, it's just too thin. I like the violin partitas and sonatas, but that's totally different (as the discussion here addresses). Generally, I don't much care for the bright sound of the mandolin in most genres--but, I play contrabass, tenor sax, drums, detuned 12-string guitars, among other things, so I'm attracted to big, earthy tones anyway. The bright, peppy tone of the mando is fine, but usually not my first choice. Generally, I'll play the same repertoire on fiddle, accordians/concertina, or tenor banjo, and defer to mandolin if I'm unable to execute on these, feeling lazy, or chopping BG. I guess this is why my mando rarely leaves its case.*

*FWIW, I do play my dolas and CBOMs with some greater frequency.

Well could one not make a similar arguement for the flute. Not that it is percussive certainly, but that it is severly limited in expressive ability because of its range, and inability to play more than one note at a time. All the strings, piano (a rather percussive instrument one could say btw), can play more than one note at a time.

I don't know where the boarder is between personal preference and objective assessment / and similarly where is the boarder between instrument can't do it and instrument has rarely shown the ability to do it based on how it is enjoyed at the moment.

Segovia was an excellent example - is not the guitar now considered an instrument in full, and not a compromise folk relic, something to be played with fancy regional costumes or novelty smile and wink attempts at classical music?

I'm trying here, I'm trying.

[journeybear]

Tradition gets in the way, I suppose. Mandolin is perhaps not as expressive as the violin, but that doesn't mean it is not capable of doing what needs to be done, when in the right hands.

The easiest example I can grab right now is jazz, where the playing of Jethro shows the mandolin as a full fledged option, the equal in its way to a guitar or piano or bass or sax or trumpet. In its way. It can't do what those others do, but, at least in Jethro's hands the others can't do what the mandolin can do. You don't get the impression, listening to Jethro, that it would sound better on some other instrument, or that the mandolin limits Jethro's ability to do what he wants musically...

Very true, and again, a lot of this and what cat is saying is based on perception. The mandolin is mostly seen as being suitable for just a few genres, despite Jethro showing how versatile it could be, the perfect expression of his musicality. For some reason, rather than his efforts leading to wider acceptance in this or other areas, he is seen as the one guy who played jazz on a mandolin (though I'm sure Ted and others can cite others; still, he is surely the best known), much as Bela Fleck is seen as the one guy who plays jazz on a banjo. Somehow - I really don't understand how this dynamic works - people see such people as anomalies rather than innovators. It's a pity, as they open up possibilities previously unknown, open doors for others to walk through with more ease, blaze trails for others to follow, plow through snowbanks so others can drive their cars - pick your metaphor. ;)


There's no doubt that the instrument possesses sufficient polyphonic capability--the notes are all there. What I'm more addressing here is the sound of the instrument. Roughly speaking, it's the stringed instrument version of the snare drum (not pejoratively--simply a function of a set of closely spaced strings and a cracking resonance) ...

Ouch! I'm still uncomfortable with your characterization of the mandolin as a percussion instrument, but at least Im beginning to understand its derivation. But what you are talking about is just one part of its range of sounds - the chop chord, apparently. It can be played with a much wider variety of techniques, and much more expressively than you claim.


... But the guitar--with its greater tonal range--is somewhat more anomalous in this regard, and possesses a sonority perhaps more consonant with diverse music.

This does seem to be a commonly accepted truism, and so does incorporate some truth. However, I believe the two instruments have roughly the same range, just the guitar is pitched lower - and it may well be this appeals to more people, as does the banjo. Why violin is so much more appealing than mandolin, which are pitched the same, is a little harder to see, though its ability to produce notes with more volume, length, and, yes, expressiveness, certainly contribute. I was actually attracted to the mandolin because of its higher pitch. Noticing how often rock guitarists worked their solos to build to a climactic high point, I thought it would be intersting to play an instrument that started there and see where it would lead. I hadn't realized how often and much people responded to the guitar's low growl ... oops! Well, I did get a mandola a bit later...


The bright, peppy tone of the mando is fine, but usually not my first choice ... I guess this is why my mando rarely leaves its case.

I think this is really the root of your difficulty understanding the instrument's capabilities - you haven't played it enough. Play more, stretch out, explore its possibilities, push the envelope. As you say, the notes are in there, you just have to figure out how to get them out. I don't mean to sound condescending; it just sounds to me, from what you have been saying, that you haven't spent enough time working through this. I don't recall how long it took me to reach this point for myself, but I do remember it took a lot of doing and pushing beyond frustration and exasperation until I felt I had achieved something like symbiosis, and I could get the instrument to do what I waned it to, Perhaps this isn't important to you, and there is no reason why it should be if it isn't. But I keep getting the impression - there's that dang perception factor again - that you haven't given it your all yet. I hope you do. Surely you have put similar efforts into your other instruments, so you know what I mean.

[M.Marmot]

I am going to take a stab at an arguement here. I think there is validity to what you say for the mandolin as it is being played in the folk/ot/bg world. But I think the mandolin in classical music and jazz shows the insrument is capable of so much more. Tradition gets in the way, I suppose. Mandolin is perhaps not as expressive as the violin, but that doesn't mean it is not capable of doing what needs to be done, when in the right hands.

The easiest example I can grab right now is jazz, where the playing of Jethro shows the mandolin as a full fledged option, the equal in its way to a guitar or piano or bass or sax or trumpet. In its way. It can't do what those others do, but, at least in Jethro's hands the others can't do what the mandolin can do. You don't get the impression, listening to Jethro, that it would sound better on some other instrument, or that the mandolin limits Jethro's ability to do what he wants musically. No backwater diatonic cigarbox egg shaker novelty jaw harp kalimba tongue drum thingie, but a man amongst men, an instrument among instruments.

Mr. D, you have brought up one of the things i was mulling over with regards this topic...

When you look at a lot of the musical material involved in traditional musics well then you'll see that they are already prejudiced toward fiddles... OT, IT, BG and a host of others are primarily made up of fiddle tunes, so it stands to reason that the mandolin faces an uphill battle trying to compete on this terrain.

You bring up Jethro Burns, well i'll see and agree with your Jethro Burns and raise an Andy Statman.

Just a quick glance through the Statman videos posted on Youtube will demonstrate just how versatile the instrument can be when brought into another arena of play, or when played with an open imagination. Also, one of the things is that Statman's group arranges for the limitations/possibilities of mandolin, by allowing it more space it is allowed to open more and this brings out more options and sounds.

With regards the mandolin and classical, well, folks do like to go do-lally for Bach but on the whole, i dont like Bach on guitar, cello, violin, flute, piano, organ and overall the voice sure, the mandolin or guitar... its a stunning novelty, if i want baroque mandolin i'll go for Vivaldi and the pieces that were (i presume) originally written for mandolin... here mandolin works because here we have it again, like Statman and Monroe, the overall music is arranged around the mandolin's possibilities.

Now, thats not to say that i'm advocating the mandolin over the fiddle, different horses for differnet courses, but, its definitely to propose that the mandolin does often suffer from being the round peg in the square composition/arrangement.

And out of curiosity, what about fretless mandolins, are they at all practical? Does anyone play with one?

[catmandu2]

Well could one not make a similar arguement for the flute. Not that it is percussive certainly, but that it is severly limited in expressive ability because of its range, and inability to play more than one note at a time. All the strings, piano (a rather percussive instrument one could say btw), can play more than one note at a time.

Segovia was an excellent example - is not the guitar now considered an instrument in full, and not a compromise folk relic, something to be played with fancy regional costumes or novelty smile and wink attempts at classical music?


Well, as has been previously mentioned, the tonal palette of wind instruments is much broader. Granted, the polyphonic capacity of mando (and guitars, banjos, pianos and other "chording" instruments) renders it extremely versatile. Again, I'm really only addressing the quality of the sound. FWIW, I grew up on guitars...and fretted stringed instruments of all shapes and sizes have been my forte. I regard the whole milieu from the David Lindley axiom--and have derived more enjoyment from them than many have; the family of (fretted) stringed instruments have really given me what I have--a life in music. But these days, they don't hold my interest as much as strings and woodwinds, with which I feel I'm able to render greater expression. YMMV :)

Yes, the guitar has broad acceptance as a concert instrument. Still, IMO, it still does better as a folk instrument a la Paco DeLucia. Segovia disdained flamenco--the traditional guitar idiom in his culture--as he had greater aspirations for the guitar. The concert repertoire for guitar has really evolved in the last centrury since Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco, Augustin Barriors, Heitor Villa-Lobos and a host of others first ushered modernism into the concert guitar's lexicon.

This is a very interesting discussion. I expect that I am among a very small minority here to argue for what would seem to be the equivalent of the historical guitar controversy--restricting the mandolin from the modern idiom! :))

FWIW, I really dislike the sound of electric guitar in jazz--especially as rendered by Charlie Christian and Grant Green. It's everywhere, but it's one of my least favorite voices.

[catmandu2]

But what you are talking about is just one part of its range of sounds - the chop chord, apparently. It can be played with a much wider variety of techniques, and much more expressively than you claim.

I believe the two instruments have roughly the same range, just the guitar is pitched lower - and it may well be this appeals to more people, as does the banjo.

Again, I'm critiquing the mandolins's sonority--chop, or single note--and sonic potential (vibrating string). I generally lump plucked acoustic stringed instruments together in this discussion--particularly ones played with a plectrum rather than the flesh/nail of a finger, but this is a more peripheral factor: they're all limited by the same aspects.

[catmandu2]

Just a quick glance through the Statman videos posted on Youtube will demonstrate just how versatile the instrument can be...

Quite so. I love my fretted stringed instruments particularly for this reason--they're the most versatile of all instruments, IMO. And when I entertain solo, I use them primarily. IMO, they're much better for polyphonic work than solo work. I will, often, use a nylon string guitar for solo work, however, as it has a more interesting sound to my ears and has tremendous range of expression (dynamics) for a plucked stringed instrument.

If I'm going to use the instrument in a setting where I'll be playing a lot of single notes, I'll choose the tenor banjo, mandola, fiddle, accordian, nylon-string guitar, woodwinds--all offering to one degree or other more complexity of tone or desireable range, to my ear--over mando.

This is really the crux of my point, which I'll reiterate succinctly: the sound of a note (or, notes in unison, chopped or arpeggiated) played on a mandolin is not my favorite sound. It pales in comparsion to the sound of a note played on any number of other instruments (particularly with regards to fiddle as articulated previously, as I think the OP may have mentioned three pages back). The reason for this is due to the physical design of the instrument and the sonic potential of the vibrating string. It is nice--it is peppy and plucky, but it's not my favorite. The mandolin possesses other aspects (size, shape, playing ease, volume) that appeal to me and inspire me to play it, otherwise.

[JeffD]

I think it is a very useful discussion as well, from either side.

Andy Statman, my first mandolin hero, is also addicted to clarinet. And in the interview he talks about what one instrument does for him that the other doesn't. Pertinent here I think.

One thing I do notice - when a mandolin or its player, produce a tone that I don't like, I really really don't like it. I love great tone, where every note has depth and color, and I can enjoy good tone, but a mandolin with too thin a tone, or too brassy or thunky, well in those cases being a mandolin is no advantage, and I would rather hear a woodwind.

Way back in the way back I spent a year exploring the possibilities of playing fiddle tunes on the oboe. I had a blast, but had to give the oboe back and hadn't the funds to purchase one for myself. I still think there are some real possibilities for old time fiddle music, and traditional irish fiddle tunes, on an oboe, or english horn if one needs a deeper range.

But I digress.

[mandocrucian]

I still think there are some real possibilities for old time fiddle music, and traditional irish fiddle tunes, on an oboe, or english horn if one needs a deeper range.


Check out Sue Harris (Kirkpatrick), who was once married to English accordion player John Kirkpatrick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kirkpatrick_(musician)). She plays oboe and hammered dulcimer. The oboe really sounded good on records such as.....
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61szRso4hwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/john.kirkpatrick/images/largerec/shredsandpatches_12ts355.jpg
Shreds & Patches

[catmandu2]

Oboe, wow. That's a challenging instrument, and to pull off fiddle tunes. I'd like to hear that. I used to dicker on oboe...and always thought I'd acquire a bassoon one day.

[JeffD]

I played bassoon in the orchestra. Thats what I was doing when I "discovered" the mandolin.

[catmandu2]

I still think there are some real possibilities for old time fiddle music, and traditional irish fiddle tunes, on an oboe, or english horn if one needs a deeper range.


A complex set of woodwinds...I don't imagine you played fiddle tunes on bassoon!

But, the normal range of a fiddle tune is fine for me--I also play fiddle tunes on concertina and flute, which are in that same range. I just like a richer, more complex sound.

[journeybear]

I know someone who played rock bassoon, but had more success when she switched to guitar. And another original voice was lost to convention ... :(

[catmandu2]

Experimentation is great. But not all experiments succeed.

[journeybear]

I am eternally grateful that John Entwhistle found a way to work his French horn into some of The Who"s songs. Otherwise it may never have been used in rock. And another color in the sonic rainbow would have been left on the pallette.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained ... and we could easily have plenty of nothing if not for the efforts of the unconventional.

[catmandu2]

...and we could easily have plenty of nothing...

So much of the rock idiom is substantia innominata.. :sleepy:

[Bertram Henze]

I remember a cello player who turned up sometimes at one of our sessions. He could play the Irish tunes as fast as his friend, the fiddle player. Together, they sounded like a string quartet gone bananas.

[JeffD]

At our jam at "the cabin" at Lake Genero two years ago we had two cellos. One played wonderfully in unison with the fiddles. She also did all this percussive chopping on the cello as many young fiddle players are doing these days, which is like salt, a nice spice to add until you can taste it. The other cello plucked bass notes, providing a needed bottom to our cacophony.

Cello indeed can be an equal contributor to a fiddle tune jam.