pick click on recordings

[John Adrihan]

I did a few searches on "pick click" and found the majority of the suggestions for stopping it is to have the extention scooped or removed. I don't have a huge bluegrass music catalog but on the bluegrass album band 1 and 2 and true life blues tribute to Bill Monroe, plus some Ricky Skaggs with Tony Rice and Bill Monroe recordings I have you do not hear pick click. No I know some of the mandolins on those albums may be scooped and I think Tim Obrien plays on some and I believe he has a A style with no extention(maybe, i really dont know what his mandolin looks like) So how do they record it with no click? do they edit it out? or do/did these guys have a style that did not have a click. I know that Bill Monroes mandolin was not scooped. how about Ricky Skaggs? or the other guys? I know that Sam Bush cut his off. Any Bluegrass 101 appreciated.

[Willie Poole]

I make my picks out of a nylon stock and have never got any "pick click", I believe the click comes from the pick material being too hard, like a hard plastic, and slapping on the strings not the extenion of the fingerboard in most cases...On this Cafe there has been a lot of discussion on different types of picks, most seem tp prefer a thicker pick made out of material that is not real hard....A lot of the pros have their strings high enough so that the extension on the fingerboard doesn`t come into play, yes it makes the mandolin a tad harder to play but once your fingers get calloused it isn`t all that hard to hold down the strings...My suggestion is to try some of the picks that have been suggested on here and I`m sure you will find one that is to your liking....Good luck....

[Markus]

First off, it is a recording. They could possibly just overdub every time that happens, have no takes where the pick hits the fretboard by accident.

--

There are two forms of `pick click' to my ear:

1. The sound from the pick/string interaction, often a snapping of the pick [for softer picks].
2. The sound from the pick hitting the fretboard. [what you're talking about]

It would appear you are talking completely about #2 here.

In my opinion this should not happen with perfect technique. It's like my opinion of a pick guard ... why would your hand go more than 1/2" past were the strings are? Ideally we should have efficiency of motion, and moving your hand far enough from the strings to hit the instrument I don't see having any functional use in playing.

`Digging in' with the pick to where you hit the fretboard [while is not unknown for me personally when playing at warp speed, especially after a drink or two] - to my opinion is just poor technique. There is no reason to put the pick tip way past where the strings actually are that I am aware of.

As bluegrass often goes at warp speed [then add tremolo]. I think that fact means people scoop their fretboards as most of us are imperfect, our hands get tired/sloppy by the end of a gig, or the banjo player decides to kick off a tune much faster than can be played cleanly.

While I could be wrong [just ask my wife!], I'm don't think that perfect technique would require a scooped fretboard.

#1 Pick Click depends on a lot of the pick thickness, material, strings, player, angle of attack - and to some extent will always happen with a pick, just mostly not very noticeable - especially when recording when it can be miked to minimize this. I've had a few picks which I just couldn't stand the sound of - where another pick is much quieter or a less annoying snappy-sound.

[Markus]

I believe the click comes from the pick material being too hard, like a hard plastic, and slapping on the strings not the extenion of the fingerboard in most cases....

Pick material makes a big difference, I find thinner picks have a snappy sound that is unpleasant to me.

That all said - I read a recent recommendation here to mike a mandolin from slightly below and past the tail end of the mandolin, aiming up at the bottom of the treble f-hole. This places my hand in between the pick and the mike, and seems like it's reduced quite a few hand-related noises I was getting when the mike was in a more guitar-y configuration [aimed at 12th fret +/or the end of f-hole near neck].

In an actual studio, no doubt they have many tricks too.

[mandolirius]

<It's like my opinion of a pick guard ... why would your hand go more than 1/2" past were the strings are?>

People often get confused about this and it's because the language has become corrupted. On a mandolin there is no such thing as a pickguard. Pickguards are on guitars, for obvious reasons. On a mandolin, the thing people call a pickguard is properly known as a finger rest. Two words that mean exactly what they say. It's a surface for resting the tips of your fingers on. Some people don't like it, don't need it and don't use it. Others do. But it is not a pickguard. That is the commonly used word for it, I freely admit. But it's not accurate.

[John Adrihan]

I am talking about the click from hitting the fret board. I have a a stlye that has really no extention. I did however play a mandolin the other day that had the traditional Florida extention and my pick was hitting that alot and it was noisy. This does not bother me but more of a question of why dont you here it from players that have not modified theirs. I guess it comes down to they either have a different style or the dub it out on the recording.

[Ed Goist]

...snip...I think Tim Obrien plays on some and I believe he has a A style with no extention(maybe, i really dont know what his mandolin looks like) ...snip...

FYI

http://www.12fret.com/new/Collings_nugget_tim_o%27brien_mandolin.jpg

[chris]

Monroe picked below the extension . I have one of Ricky's more recent cds and he has real bad pick click. A real simple trick is to hold the pick so very little is sticking out, less than the space between the strings and the extension. Problem solved.

[mandolirius]

The Collings version has a differently-shaped fingerboard than the original Nugget, which has no extension at all.

[Markus]

On a mandolin, the thing people call a pickguard is properly known as a finger rest.
Thanks for the correction, it is a better term I agree.

That all said, it doesn't negate from the mandolins I've seen that have obvious wear from pick contact.

[Markus]

A real simple trick is to hold the pick so very little is sticking out, less than the space between the strings and the extension. Problem solved.
Yep, less pick beyond the strings.

Perhaps someone could perfect a rhythmic clicking like is done on the `doghouse bass' on the fretboard extension and blow us all away.

[Ed Goist]

The Collings version has a differently-shaped fingerboard than the original Nugget, which has no extension at all.

Mandolirius: Good catch!
Markus: Note the pick-wear

http://www.nhregister.com/content/articles/2010/10/01/entertainment/doc4ca50db33711c277890949.jpg

[grassrootphilosopher]

I did a few searches on "pick click" and found the majority of the suggestions for stopping it is to have the extention scooped or removed. I don't have a huge bluegrass music catalog but on the bluegrass album band 1 and 2 and true life blues tribute to Bill Monroe, plus some Ricky Skaggs with Tony Rice and Bill Monroe recordings I have you do not hear pick click. No I know some of the mandolins on those albums may be scooped and I think Tim Obrien plays on some and I believe he has a A style with no extention(maybe, i really dont know what his mandolin looks like) So how do they record it with no click? do they edit it out? or do/did these guys have a style that did not have a click. I know that Bill Monroes mandolin was not scooped. how about Ricky Skaggs? or the other guys? I know that Sam Bush cut his off. Any Bluegrass 101 appreciated.

If you listen to different musicians you will find that they click or they don´t. Grisman on Tone Poems I does click in some tunes (maybe it´s "Morning Sun" where also the A string is somewhat out of tune). Skaggs clicks... Others don´t be it that they scooped (Reishman) or hacked (Bush) their fretboard extention. O´Brian doesn´t have one. Some others don´t click with their extention in place (Grisman recordings, Skaggs recordings, Compton etc. - you might want to check out the Tone Poets recordings).

When it comes to clicking, you either don´t care or you care. If the click aggravates you and you want to stop it, you either adjust your technique so that you don´t click or you find yourself an instrument that doesn´t click.

I don´t think that recordings were specially click-treated. If you are close enough to a microphone and the recording level is pretty high, you´ll hear the click (just like the slide noise on let´s say guitar strings when you play a solo). Remember, mandolin music is not computer generated where you rule out any side noise.

[Mandoist]

Monroe picked below the extension


Given the fact that Bill's action was almost high enough to slip a little finger beneath the strings...fretboard clicking was out of the question. he could have picked it over the 12th fret and never come close to the board!!

[Cheryl Watson]

I hear the pick-click on Ricky Scagg's recordings but it does not bother me. All my mandolins are scooped or the extension is shortened.

[Brent Hutto]

I choke up on the pick too far to click on a fretboard extension. Instead, I catch my fingernails on the strings! Sounds even worse but at least no click. :disbelief:

[JeffD]

Also, I don't think the pick click projects as far or in the same way as the sounded strings. So one could probably mitigate pick click somewhat by microphone placement.

[Andrew Roberts]

I hear some recordings with pick click on the fretboard extension and some without. I would imagine the reason for the absence on some recordings is due to a combination of many of the explanations discussed above. I personally kind of like the pick click on mandolin breaks. I think it gives it a really nice folky feel to the break. Mike Guggino's breaks on the new Steep Canyon Rangers album are super classy and tasty, and many contain a little pick click.

[draino]

Given the fact that Bill's action was almost high enough to slip a little finger beneath the strings...fretboard clicking was out of the question. he could have picked it over the 12th fret and never come close to the board!!

Seems that action will have little bearing on pick click -- once the string is fretted, the space between the fretboard and the string will become much smaller, particularly on higher frets.

[Spruce]

Condensers will accentuate pick click...
Ribbons will help to alleviate it...

[Markus]

Good point ... high up the neck gives even less gap in between fretboard and strings. Every little bit helps.

[Dennis Ladd]

Hey, Spruce ...
Write some more about ribbon vs. condenser mikes and sound quality. Sounds interesting.

[EdHanrahan]

The Collings version has a differently-shaped fingerboard than the original Nugget, which has no extension at all.
Yeah but, that's just fretboard shape... not length.

It looks like both Tim O'Brien's original Nugget and his signature model Collings have 22 frets, going to D above the octave. Whereas it's not uncommon for the Florida extension to have 24 frets, to E, or 27 frets, up to G. The original Gibson Loars and most of the "true" copies, I believe, have 29 frets, all the way up to A, 2 octaves above the 5th fret! That's asking for pick click far more than either of Tim's examples.

[Brent Hutto]

Doesn't a small diaphragm condensor pretty much accentuate everything? Even the stuff other microphones miss. Or at least that's by reputation, I have no recording experience at all so I'm curious.

[Spruce]

Doesn't a small diaphragm condensor pretty much accentuate everything? Even the stuff other microphones miss. Or at least that's by reputation, I have no recording experience at all so I'm curious.

Yeah, I call 'em "flea-fart" mics, as they'll pick up anything--especially high-end stuff like paper shuffling, sniffling, and pick noise....

Ribbons, on the other hand, tend to magically eliminate a lot of associated sounds, like bow noise on a fiddle, key strikes on a toy piano, etc. etc....

So-ooo, I'm sure a well-placed ribbon would help with the problem...

[Markus]

Thanks for the insight, Spruce.

Never noticed how loudly I breathed before I started recording with a condensor like that. Holy cow.

[Spruce]

Yep....
Breathing can sound like a hurricane...
And pick noise or finger squeals can be very distracting....