Pawn Shop Needs ALITTLE HELP

[GoldenPawnShop]

I am in need of some help. I just brought in a Vintage Supertone Mandolin and I brought it in for $10 dollars. But the thing is I am not able to find anywhere on the internet the value of this vintage mandolin. I have pictures of the item. Please any information of this item would be AWESOME have a great day and God Bless!!!6469564694646936469264691

[GoldenPawnShop]

PS you can't see it but on the bottom left hand corner of the label inside the mandolin is a # F13410

[fiddlemike]

i'll give you $15 for it

[fiddlemike]

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?58745-Help-Sears-amp-Roebuck-Supertone-Mandolin

[GoldenPawnShop]

The link you sent I have already read twice. I did not find the answer I was looking for so that is why I posted so the Mandolin "Experts" could shed some light on the subject. So far fiddlemike is the only person that has responded with an offer that made me :)) I can only hope that somebody with the proper knowledge of this particular item will log on soon and let me know what exactly I have and the manufacturing date of this item.

[MikeEdgerton]

If you didn't catch from that entire post that was linked then you're probably going to be disappointed. Almost that exact mandolin was discussed by the most knowledgeable people on this forum. There are no exact records of these mandolins. They were built by one of of two or three companies in the 1920-1930 range in Chicago. The price range on a good day is $100.00 to $300.00. that was posted in the early part of the initial thread given. I saw no reason to jump in as you already had all of the information you should have needed. Supertone was a Sears Roebuck brand name but Sears didn't manufacture anything. There were major builders in the Chicago area that built for the trade, for others to rebrand or not brand at all and sell. If you paid $10.00 for it you got a good deal. You'll do better selling it on eBay without going into any grand description other than saying it was a Chicago made 20's-30's mandolin that appears to be in good shape.

[jim simpson]

I like the white pickguard against the black top. I could do without the decal but I guess it was a low cost way of dressing up a plain instrument back in those days.

[Bruce Clausen]

I gotta say the instrument in the old thread (F13411) sure looks like a nicer model than this pawn shop one (F13410). Besides which, judging by the second photo above, this one is going to need some work done before anyone will want to actually play it. So its value right now might be mainly for parts, or for wall art.

[DerTiefster]

The link you sent I have already read twice.Good. Excellent.
I did not find the answer I was looking for so that is why I posted so the Mandolin "Experts" could shed some light on the subject.Not so excellent. There is quite a bit of information in that thread, as Edgerton remarks.
So far fiddlemike is the only person that has responded with an offer that made me :)) He seems to be the only respondent to that point.
I can only hope that somebody with the proper knowledge of this particular item will log on soon and let me know what exactly I have and the manufacturing date of this item.The pictures you provided are nice. Maybe the art was done by some art nouveau master, or maybe not. Maybe it was decorated for some past festival or fair and has historic value from showing up in a newspaper article. Are you offering anything to potential information-holders that -they- might consider worth trading for the information? Sometimes it is simply the satisfaction of helping a fellow human. Whether helping a fellow human obtain a 20:1 split in value from a third party is considered humanitarian aid generally depends upon the overall circumstances.

I've thought through the issues of buying/selling for myself before. I come up against the value of information time and time again. Having something with collectible value, but not knowing its value, renders it nearly worthless to its owner but for its basic utilitarian value. The value of certain things lies almost entirely in the information. Your comments -appear- to be from one who presumes that the valuable information he seeks should be provided gratis by "those who know." Do you plan to offer the information back to the fellow who pawned the mandolin, or possibly split the value of the information you seek with him? Why should anyone choose to provide the info to you without a consulting fee so the provider could share in the profit that comes from the knowledge? Information -is- worth money. Things -do- cost more when their value is known to the owner. If the value of the instrument were $300, would you pass that info on to the ticket-holder so he could possibly redeem the mandolin for resale, or perhaps sell the ticket to another for $100 so he could redeem it?

It would be terrible if you should choose to sell the item for $100 when it was really worth $1000, wouldn't it?

[allenhopkins]

Lots of discussion of Supertone instruments on some of the guitar forums (fora?). As pointed out: Sears catalog brand, for musical instruments and also 78 rpm recordings, so Sears ordered "Supertone" instruments from a variety of instrument builders, including Oscar Schmidt and Kay, but largely from Harmony. Apparently Sears Roebuck owned Harmony for a brief period. Sometime around 1930 Sears discontinued "Supertone" and switched to "Silvertone" for their catalog instrument line, and this continued for a long time.

Best guess for the manufacturer, thus, is Harmony, which (as you're no doubt aware) was a large Chicago manufacturer of entry- and mid-level instruments. This hypothesis is also supported by the "F13410" stamped inside; many Harmony instruments were stamped with numbers beginning either with "F" or "S", which this Harmony website FAQ's page (http://harmony.demont.net/faq.php) suggests means the instrument was made either in the first or second half of the year, before or after Harmony's usual July summer shutdown.

The black finish, white pickguard and decal say "1930's" to me, but Harmony serial numbers don't include the date, so that's a guess. There are many Harmony/Supertone instruments for sale at any given time; Sears sold carloads of guitars, banjos and mandolins through its catalogs in the early 20th century. They get, as a rule, entry-level prices, sometimes less than $100, almost never above $2-300 or so. You have a neat and unusual instrument there, and if it's in really good condition, you could aim for the high end of the range.

Or you could deal with the Pawn Stars people in Vegas, who seem to think that a beat-up Gibson UB-1 ukulele-banjo can bring over $1K. A little knowledge, and a TV "reality" show, can produce some strange results...

[mrmando]

Action on this Supertone is a mile high; the repair work is likely to cost more than the instrument is worth. Bruce is correct; this is most likely a basket case.

[MikeEdgerton]

That F number is a date code not a serial number. Harmony didn't actually serialize their instruments. Even as a basket case, it will still go in the price range I listed.

[barney 59]

There is a niche market of decalomaniacs and they will push the value of something like that up a little - possibly. At that it is of no great value. The market seems significantly down right now for anything that falls short of a true rare and collectible instrument. I still think that almost anything is worth $200 and if the right person sees it(most likely a luthier hobbyist) it will probably sell in that price range. There is also a chance that if it was to show up no reserve on ebay that it will go for $26. I've seen beat up Gibson A models of that vintage go for as little as $300 lately, instruments that would have gone for 2 to 3 times that 2 years ago.

[mrmando]

There is a niche market of decalomaniacs
Huh? People who are crazy about the Ten Commandments?

[barney 59]

Thou shalt not buy musical instruments with stickers or other do - dads applied to their surface. Then of course there are the sinners that do...

[John Soper]

Why not a Dutch auction- start at the upper end ($300), drop the price by $10-20 each week until it sells- then you'd know the value of that mandolin in today's market.

[mrmando]

If you sell this mandolin for $15, that's 50% profit, so you're only half as naive as the guy who sold it for $10. Not such a bad deal.

[DerTiefster]

Regardless of the sentiments I expressed above, any pawn shop owner provides what can be a service to the community (short-notice liquidity). I poked through a few pawn shops looking for bargains when looking for my first mandolin (a futile exercise, in my case). I was mostly reacting above to what I perceived as an attitude of "gee, isn't anyone here gonna help -me- maximize -my- profit on this here mandolin?" But that -is- his business, and it is exactly what he has to do.

He put nice photos up to archive the mandolin for future reference by others, which provides a persistent contribution. He could have referenced them from an external server, where they might disappear any minute. This is a bit of a back-handed apology for my being insufficiently gracious above. Sorry 'bout that. Thank you.

[RBMB]

The Vintage Guitar Price guide mentions Silvertone mandolins in the back. My version is old. I suggest you check out a newer version and see if they still list them. If that is inlay work and not a decal, I bet someone picks up to decorate their home.

[MikeEdgerton]

If you actually believe the Vintage Guitar guide prices and stick to them you won't have to worry about selling too much unless you find someone else that believes those prices as well. People buy wall hangers all the time off eBay for small amounts of money.

[allenhopkins]

If that is inlay work and not a decal, I bet someone picks up to decorate their home.

Gotta be a decal. Or (highly unlikely) a paint job.

Mike E, sorry about my misstatement; I knew that the Harmony codes weren't really "serial numbers," but couldn't think what else to call 'em. My bad.

[jim simpson]

Here's an instrument I picked up today at a local auction. I'm afraid I might make the guitar look worse if I try to remove the decal. These colors don't run.

[F-2 Dave]

Cool old archtop. The 48 star flag sure helps to date the decal.

[jim simpson]

F2 Dave & DerTiefster,
Thanks for the input and info. Here are additional shots of the guitar. After examing it more closely, it looks like it could use a neck re-set (or string it up for slide!). A back crack needs some attention. The saddle on the bridge looks to be a home-made slice of bone.
Jim

[Links]

I agree with Mike on the mandolin in the other thread - $100 - $300, but this mandolin is not nearly the quality of that one. My guess is that this one would be $50 tops - and that is if it is playable and the neck is straight - and not needing a neck set. Looks like it was even the bottom of the Supertone line of instruments!

[MikeEdgerton]

I think it's pretty much the same instrument with a different decal.

[Links]

Mike - look a little closer - headstock different (back on this one not enclosed) and this one does not have perfling around top.

[EdHanrahan]

Q: The tailpiece looks like the Waverly structure with an "other-than-cloud" cover on it. Were those at all common?

[MikeEdgerton]

The tailpiece was common. It was used as an alternative to the Waverly cloud. The ones I've seen used the same base as the Waverly cloud. I'm assuming they were just a different model.

[Jim MacDaniel]

Regardless of the sentiments I expressed above, any pawn shop owner provides what can be a service to the community (short-notice liquidity). I poked through a few pawn shops looking for bargains when looking for my first mandolin (a futile exercise, in my case)...

I did the same, and ended up finding a like-new Tacoma, although I ended up paying at or near market value. Although Pawn Shops provide their local communities the real service that you mention above, the days of finding unbelievable deals on music instruments at Pawn Shops---as well as at Antique Shops, and even yard sales for that matter---are long gone for the most part, since these sellers are so much more savvy than just a decade or two ago, thanks primarilly to the popularity and ubiquity or the internet.

[John Soper]

Yup, darn that internet!


:-)

[MikeEdgerton]

The Internet has devalued a large portion of the antiques market as well. I have a lithograph from the early 1900's by a well known artist. In 1981 Sothebys (http://www.sothebys.com/) appraised it at $20,000.00. They sell on eBay every now and then for $6,000 or so. There were more of them out there and still in good condition than anyone thought possible.

On the pawn shop question, I admire this guy for coming and actually asking about his item. A total contrast to our usual dealings with the guys selling the fake Gibson's on eBay.

[catmandu2]

In photo #2, the action appears to be unplayable, as Martin mentioned. $10 could be a fair price, or even somewhat high.

[8ch(pl)]

The tailpiece is worth a bit of money. A Waverley cloud type sells for more than $50. I don't know about the "Kidney" tailpiece cover on this one.

If this instrument is stucturally sound, playable, and has nice tone, it is likely worth a couple of hundred dollars, more or less. The paint may have been applied at the factory to cover up unatractive wood. Many of these were plain Birch construction, may even be laminate.

Like anything, it is worth what you can get someone to pay. It ain't no Gibson.

[MikeEdgerton]

There are a whole lot of people that would like to buy the clouds at $50.00. The last 3 I sold were $75.00 to $90.00 and they sold the minute they were offered.

That mandolin is early enough that I don't think it's laminated.

[8ch(pl)]

That's why I said More than $50. For a Kidney type Waverley tailpiece I expect $50 is probably a minimum price.

I had some work done on my Vega Mandolin-banjo 4 years ago. The repair person lost the Tailpiece Cover (a Waverley Cloud) in his Basement at home (where he does his work) and then I got attitude about it for several months because I would go into his store and ask if he had found it. The last time I was in there I told him to call me when he found it. His doing this is the only reason I will ever go there, but it has been more than 3 1/2 years.

I advertised for a replacement and was offered one at $50 US plus shipping, more than I was willing to pay, but probably what it was worth. That was just for the cover, more than 3 years ago.

I am only speculating at the wood in the construction. Some early instruments were laminated. I am not sure that Pigmented Lacquer inhibited sound or not, but would not say it improved it.

[DerTiefster]

Is there any reason not to say, "Replace the tailpiece cover, please, before prices go any higher. I'm only looking out for your interest. Or you could hire a maid service to clean up and maybe find my tailpiece cover."? (Gosh, it's hard to remember how my 9th grade English teacher said to punctuate that. I remember that the customary rules didn't make a lick of sense when taken literally, and are pure poison if applied to computer languages.)

[MikeEdgerton]

I advertised for a replacement and was offered one at $50 US plus shipping, more than I was willing to pay, but probably what it was worth. That was just for the cover, more than 3 years ago.

Someone recently offered the dies and the bending equipment to build the clamshell tailpiece covers in the classifieds. It may have been several months ago now that I think about it. With the number of these things out there, they were basically used by every maker from Gibson and Martin to Harmony and Kay, from the teens through the 60's, I can't believe that somebody hasn't started manufacturing exact replicas of the cover.

[8ch(pl)]

Quote by Der Tiefster:
Is there any reason not to say, "Replace the tailpiece cover, please, before prices go any higher. I'm only looking out for your interest. Or you could hire a maid service to clean up and maybe find my tailpiece cover."?

No, I have written the Tailpiece Cover off, and my friendship with the Store Owner as well. He was pretty obnoxious about things. I gave him quite a bit of business over the years that we had dealings.

[Charles Johnson]

Now that the thread is well and truly hijacked....

Note that there are several different widths of the "rails" on the tailpiece for the cloud covers. Its not much, maybe 1/32 or 1/64 of an inch, but its enough that you cannot bend the cover to fit without warping it. Its best if you buy a matched tailpiece/cover set and just replace the whole assembly.

Charles