Recording a mandolin - how to?

[Cue Zephyr]

Howdy folks,

As I'm most likely to mostly record the mandolin for using it in production or whatever... I have to know how to mike it.

I know with a guitar, when using just one microphone it's best to put it on the 12th fret. With two (different) microphones I tend to use other set-ups like X-Y, M-S or my personal favorite: one on the 12th fret and the other over the shoulder.

Now the mandolin is an entirely different beast alltogether and I have no idea what the best microphone placement is for the mandolin.

Does anybody have any particular way that works well?

CZ

[Spruce]

The methods you described have all work fine....

[postmann]

General recording question - any trick how to avoid recording player's snuffle?
I'm serious

[Cue Zephyr]

Oh alright, then recording-wise they aren't as different.

And no, I've heard professional recordings by artists such as Andy McKee and Antoine Dufour but they also have some 'player's snuffle' in there. I think one is just too close to the instrument for it to be possible to be excluded in a recording. With a piano this is much easier as the microphones will be much farther away from the player.

[Spruce]

General recording question - any trick how to avoid recording player's snuffle?
I'm serious

Ribbons work wonderfully well at excluding things that are off-axis, as well as noises that exist in the higher end of the spectrum...
Sounds like they might work on your snuffle, whatever that is.... ;)

And they sound great on mandolins....

[foldedpath]

CZ, as always with recording, there are no rules except what works in a particular situation. Try the methods you're used to on guitar, but try other ideas too. For what it's worth, I usually use a different mic placement than I do on guitar.

An acoustic guitar is a large "omnidirectional radiator" (if you stay away from the sound hole), so many different mic placements can work. Mandolins seem a little more fussy to me, due to the smaller size of the vibrating top, and especially the way F-hole mandolins project sound. With an F-hole archtop mandolin, I usually get the best results by aiming a mic up from a position slightly below the mandolin, and towards the rear of the instrument, roughly aiming at the lower end of the treble-side F-hole. I usually mic in mono, but if I do need stereo I'll use an integrated stereo mic in M/S from that position, rather than the more separated stereo placement I'd use on acoustic guitar (usually one at the 12th fret, another aimed from the rear at the lower bout).

I first heard about that lower/rear mic position in a workshop with Tim O'Brien, and it works pretty well... for me, anyway. Your mileage may vary, depending on type of mandolin and what you're shooting for. One major benefit of that lower/rear position is that it reduces the amount of pick noise and left hand finger noise, compared to mic'ing over the neck/body join.

I usually also have a stereo mic up in the room somewhere at a distance, to capture the room reflections. I may or may not use that, but it's nice to have those tracks available if I want something besides (or in addition to) artificial reverb during mixdown. It's worth trying, if you're recording in a room with a high enough ceiling and decent acoustics.


General recording question - any trick how to avoid recording player's snuffle?
I'm serious

That lower mic position will help a little. Placing the mic closer to the instrument will help too, although the tone might be compromised, and you might get into some proximity effect (bass boost) problems if you get too close with certain mic designs.

If it's really a serious problem, then try using a ribbon mic placed horizontally, so the flat plane of the ribbon is aimed at the instrument and the "null" at the ribbon edge is pointed at the player's nose or mouth. You can solve all sorts of isolation problems by working with the very strong null zones of a ribbon mic.

[Darren Bailey]

Also, there is a tube-like device that can be purchased quite reasonably. You twis the top off and, believe it or not, insert the end up your nose. It sounds like an odd thing to do but try it. I beleive one brand-name is "Vicks-sinex spray". Always worth keeping in the studio.

[Spruce]

You can solve all sorts of isolation problems by working with the very strong null zones of a ribbon mic.

One of the most important things to grok in the world of mic'ing, IMHO...
Just an amazing tool to have under your belt....

[Brent Hutto]

With an F-hole archtop mandolin, I usually get the best results by aiming a mic up from a position slightly below the mandolin, and towards the rear of the instrument, roughly aiming at the lower end of the treble-side F-hole. I usually mic in mono, but if I do need stereo I'll use an integrated stereo mic in M/S from that position...

Thanks for posting that. I don't have a recording setup, just a Sony portable digital recorder with built-in crossed mics. But getting below the mandolin and, in my case, actually all the way past the end and aiming back up toward the ff-hole sounds real clean.

[Cue Zephyr]

Picea (Spruce, sorry, had to do that),
I don't have a ribbon at my disposal, but I do have a reasonably neutral-sounding large-diaphragm condenser microphone with a continuously variable polar pattern selector. It's cardioid and figure-8 (kind oflike a ribbon) sound the best on it. This will probably work too, right? :D
I see how ribbons work well on mandolins as they seem to sound a bit darker than anything else. I do have a darker-sounding fixed-pattern cardioid large-diaphragm condenser that might work as well.

foldedpath,
I know recording is a lot of experimentation, but as is with guitar - I need some sort of foolproof set-up that always works (just like the single-mic 12th-fret method on guitar).
I can see how the mandolin is a much more fussy instrument to record because of the size of it compared to the guitar.
I always need some plans to work off of, like that excellent description you posted. I never would have come upon it myself.
I like the idea of having a stereo mic somewhere in the room - problem is that I don't have enough inputs to accomodate a stereo microphone (I do in fact have one of those mics).
I don't have a room with a high ceiling or good acoustics yet either. I do get great results with close-miking, though.

Thanks for the replies!

[frshwtrbob]

I use 2 Josephson C-42 mics in a horizontal XY pattern at 6 to 10 inches away & on one stereo track with one aimed slightly up at about the 12th and one aimed slightly down at the bridge / bottom f hole. When I'm happy with the combination after tweeking them an inch here and there, then I make the track a mono output so I can pan the sound left or right and not lose one over the other. You can also try the vertical XY approach as well -- see photo w the AKG 451's . I've also tried the over the shoulder and up at the neck joint as well but keep coming back to the XY stereo up front for tweaking quickness since I record mostly by myself and don't have another set of hands to help. My XY has the mics close enough so I don't have to worry about being out of phase and having to apply the 3 to 1 rule/ reversing polarity/yadda, yadda, yadda...
64558

[postmann]

I beleive one brand-name is "Vicks-sinex spray".

Cool.:) I'll place oxymetazoline on recording cocktail card.

About the ribbons - how are these specs "figure-8 pattern, frequency response: 30Hz-15kHz, sensitivity: -54dB; max. SPL: 148dB."?

Thanks

[Cue Zephyr]

Fig-8 means it's responsive to sound directly in front or behind the microphone.
Freq. resp is similar to some dynamics (SM58, for example). You won't be getting much 'air' - somewhat darker sounding. This used to be a characteristic of ribbons, but the latest development disproves that (sE RNR1, up to 22k).
Sensitivity says it's more sensitive than your average condenser (I don't really understand how to read the sensitivity unless it's in mV/Pa or whatever). The SPL (Sound Pressure Level) tells me it can take quite a lot for a ribbon. Ribbons are renowned to take less SPLs than anything else (moving-coil dynamics being the strongest here).
IOW you can record an aeroplane with it. I think none of my condensers can take that.

What mic are those specs from anyway?

[postmann]

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_rb100.htm
There's a couple of other mikes in my budget range.
http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_rm700.htm
http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_rb500.htm
RM700 looks scary, but specs are nice.

[Cue Zephyr]

I spent just over twice as much and got me one of the best cheap condensers out there (Oktava MK-012, I have recordings if you are interested).

[postmann]

I spent just over twice as much and got me one of the best cheap condensers out there (Oktava MK-012, I have recordings if you are interested).

That would be great! Let's hear Oktava, I might get me one cheaper through my Russian friends.

[Cue Zephyr]

I don't have anything better up than this:
http://www.box.net/shared/v1dpetn5ox

I do have a nice recording of it combined with a CAD M179:
http://www.box.net/shared/u47e10ahay

[postmann]

Yeah, the combo recording is sweet indeed.
I definitely have to broaden my mike's collection.
I think Oktava ML 53 ribbon might be a interesting.
They sell it from factory for about 130 euro in Russia.

[Cue Zephyr]

Yeah, I'd be interested in one of those as well. I'd rather get me a second MK-012 first though, and after that the MK-105. ;)