Bobby Osborne CD

[Willie Poole]

On the home page here I clicked on and listened to part of Bobby`s new CD and did I detect drums? YEP, sure was drums on there...Bluegrass? I wonder if this is his way of hopefully getting the CD played on "country" stations?...Can`t say I blame him since thats where the money is....

Willie

[mandolirius]

The mere presence of drums will not determine what is or isn't bluegrass. No music can be defined so narrowly as to include only five instruments (six if you count dobro) and survive. Of course traditional bluegrass doesn't have drums but there will be many different strains of bluegrass as the music carries on down through the years. All you have to do is look as jazz if you want a model. Jazz has continued to survive by continuing to develop new branches on the tree. So has rock, blues and any type of music that continues to be alive.

If you want an example of music that is no longer alive look at ragtime. Great as it is, it's frozen in time. It's associated with a certain period and has no modern form. So if you're a fan, you want bluegrass to develop new branches. Personally, I love hardcore tradional bluegrass in the style of Monroe, the Stanley's, Red Allen and others and I have no doubt that bands in that style will always be around, the same as there's always going to be a five-piece jazz group with trumpet, sax, bass, drums and piano playing bebop in the manner of Gillespie, Parker and the rest of the originators. But I'm happy to see bluegrass continuing to grow, mix and merge with other types of music, incorporate other sounds etc. because that means the music is still alive.

As for Bobby Osborne, he's been working with drummers since the late 50's, so...

[Ivan Kelsall]

If the presence of drums on their own would sell CD's,they'd all be doing it !. Back in the mid to late '60's,it seemed that drums were 'almost' necessaary for some recording companies who insisted that they be on their recordings. No doubt due to the prevailing 'pop' scene at the time. One of my all-time favourite LP's & the first Bluegrass recording i ever heard - 'Golden Bluegrass Hits' by the Barrier Brothers, had a drummer on it &while i'd have prefered NOT to have drums on,it doesn't spoil my enjoyment.For me,if the music itself is good enough,why the need to add drums - unless of course,some of the tracks are old ones,
Ivan;)

[AlanN]

Good post, mandolirius.

(I started to pontificate here, but what's the point?) Oh yeah, drums in bluegrass....

[Willie Poole]

I know that not everyone likes the same kind of music and some of us will always be trying to branch out and change most kinds of music but as for me the reason I enjoy bluegrass so much is because when I first got into playing it I thought it was a different kind of country music, namely called "Hillbilly" music that came from the deep roots of the south and for this reason I don`t want it to change, I want it to stay traditional, I don`t even like dobros or harmonicas but can accept them if they are played tastefully and in a traditional way like Buck Graves and Charlie McCoy played....I know it is hard to persuade some people as to what bluegrass really is and that it is a losing battle...I also believe bluegrass can be played just as powerful with four instruments and well as six but as someone stated the recording companies and promoters seem to control the way the music is being played now days...I also believe that some artists are playing a kind of music that will get their songs played in many different forums so that they can sell more CDs and make a better living, I don`t fault them for that...I have been a Bobby Osborne fan for most of his sixty years of playing and to me their best recordings were before they developed that new sound with horns, steel guitars and drums...BUT THAT IS JUST WHAT I LIKE....I still listen to songs that are not traditional and have included a lot of them in my bands playing, we just do them with a traditional sound, meaning just the four basic bluegrass instruments...I don`t or never will expect a lot of the younger crowd or some people from a forgien country to even understand what I am eluding to, but that is their preference and more power to them for sticking to what they like....Cliff Waldron was always one of my favorite bluegrass stars and he later in his career added drums because one of the places he played the owner wanted them, I still listened to Clff and have just about all of his recordings, Jimmy Martin recorded with them but I don`t know that he ever used them on stage.... I am not putting down drums as a musical instrument I just am trying to say that they aren`t really needed in bluegrass, if you want to use them, then go ahead, what ever toasts your bread...a lot can be said for an electric bass...But that another story.....Willie

[Scott Tichenor]

Maybe you should ask him (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?66581).

[re simmers]

Charlie Waller used snare drums on some recordings, Jim & Jesse had drums, steel, & piano, Seldom Scene used steel & electric bass, Buck White hauling that big piano, the Earl Scruggs Revue, even Jimmy Martin used a snare drum, and the list is endless. Bluegrass? I don't have a patent on the definition, but they all made some exceptional music....including the Osbornes.
Sam Bush still performs at bluegrass festivals. The last time Sam was at Gettysburg some sacred bluegrass fan asked him, "will you have drums on stage?" Sam laughed and said, "of course. He's in my band. He's on the payroll. Am I supposed to tell him to sit in the bus? No one booked me with the condition that I don't have drums."

Whatever the artist thinks sounds good to them is what it's going to be...........and that specific sound is not necessarily limited to the same instruments. Ex: "Last Days on Earth" by Big Mon himself.
The Osbornes, Jim & Jesse, Alison Krauss (yes, Alison Krauss) have brought bluegrass to people who never would consider it before. The image was off key singing through your nose, about an octave too high, and every song sounding alike. Not that there's anything wrong with that! ;)
But, if that image is the only definition for bluegrass I'll backslide and take Bobby's snare drums and whatever definition that falls under.

Bob

[Willie Poole]

You are right about not having a definition for Bluegrass....what Monroe was playing when it was given the name "Bluegrass" was high lonesome sound and thats what was accepted as bluegrass....I have played bluegrass with a saxaphone and enjoyed it and I know some of your arguments in the past have been about The Whites having a piano on stage, but to my way of thinking they aren`t bluegrass, trying to remember if I have ever seen them with a banjo in their group, but I guess that is a not a "have to" either....All of you can call it what you want but Big Mon himself said when the "New Grass" came round that he didn`t consider it bluegrass and I am with him....We have beat this horse to death at another time on another posting so I will back out now and you folks call it what you want...I consider Bobby bluegrass even with the drums but I can`t remember if there was even a banjo on the sample I was talking about in the OP....It seems that there is a few of you that love to disagree with what ever I post, so be it....I`m done....Willie

[mandolirius]

<I know that not everyone likes the same kind of music and some of us will always be trying to branch out and change most kinds of music but as for me the reason I enjoy bluegrass so much is because when I first got into playing it I thought it was a different kind of country music, namely called "Hillbilly" music that came from the deep roots of the south and for this reason I don`t want it to change, I want it to stay traditional>

This is the point I want to make...it isn't GOING to change. There will always be bands playing "tradional" bluegrass because it's great music.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, it's the same in jazz. The music has developed in many different directions since the 50's, but people are still playing bebop. They're still playing dixieland, too. There are lots of 40's-style swing bands. Django Reinhart-style gypsy jazz is bigger than ever.

Somewhere, at fesitvals all over the USA, there will be five people standing on a stage with a banjo, bass, guitar, fiddle and mandolin laying it down Monroe-style. New branches on the tree, in other words growth, aren't going to eliminate the traditional style of bluegrass. People thought the Newgrass Revival in the 70's were a death knell for tradional bluegrass. Then in the 80's along came The Johnson Mtn. Boys and other bands who didn't want to go in a new direction. Nowadays, I hear lots of tradional bluegrass at festivals, on bluegrass radio etc. I just don't hear it exclusively.

[re simmers]

mandolirius,
When Big Mon went into the nursing home there people saying that traditional bluegrass would no longer exist. They were wrong! Old and new branches on the tree all the time.
Bob

[Nelson Peddycoart]

If you haven't heard Bobby Osborne play on a track that has instrumentation other than that in traditional bluegrass, you haven't listened to enough Osborne Brothers....Dobro, drums, electric guitar, double banjos....

Good music is good music.

[Mike Bunting]

The players don't seem to worry about definitions. Monroe was a musician/bandleader created a "sound" that worked for him both in artistic and commercial terms. That's all the others try to do. In a conversation with Frank Wakefield and Bobby Osborne, Mississippi John Hurt's name came up. I asked if they had listened to much of the blues and Bobby replied that they listened to lots of different types of music, looking to find something they could add to their own sound so they could differentiate themselves from the others. I'm pretty sure that the prevailing attitude in the early days was "Call me what you want, just keep calling me for gigs", and it's true today.

[Mike Bunting]

P.S. What will sell Bobby Osborne's record is that totally amazing voice, I'd buy it if he was accompanied by a tambourine and an Egyptian foot-whistle!

[Bernie Daniel]

I have no horse in this race but I have always wondered why "bluegrass" seems often more defined by both the music AND the mix of instruments rather than just the sound the band makes.

If you play classical music on the piano, violin, trumpet, guitar or mandolin it is still classical music and some may like it or not but it is still classical music.

Likewise you can play Celtic or old time music with many different instruments or combinations of instruments and it is still Celtic or old time. But if you play bluegrass music and there is a drum or a saxophone or what have you on the stage it is no longer "bluegrass" for some.

Just observing...

[Willie Poole]

OK....I wasn`t questioning Bobbys choice of music or instruments, I was just asking was it comsidered Bluegrass...I liked what I heard and as I said he plays music for a living so he wants to get it to sound like what he thinks will sell and if a drum tapping in the background gives it that sound then that is what he wants....Bobby can/could make it as a "Country" singer if he went with the instruments like a steel, a lead guitar, keyboard etc and I would still be a fan if he did that....

"The best tenor singer ever?"...Did you forget Ira Louvin, John Duffey and the tenor singer that sang for years with Flatt and Scruggs, can`t recall his name right now..And Don Rich, who sang with Buck Owens....Bobby is/was good but not the best...My opinion and you have yours so....For years Bobby sang high lead with lower harmonies....

I`m through with this post....Willie

[mandolirius]

The "that ain't bluegrass" crowd is not much in evidence on the west coast. But I did run into them on a regular basis when I was living in Ontario, where I first got into bluegrass. There seems to be more of them in the southeast american states than in the west. Maybe because that is generally thought of the birthplace of bluegrass and some people there appear to feel it's their duty to "protect" it. Funny though, it's also considered the birthplace of oldtime and a lot of the same group of people are openly dismissive of oldtime.

Since moving out west, I mostly encounter them in the letters page of Bluegrass Unlimited and these days, they don't even show up much there. That's a good thing. Tradional-style bluegrass doesn't need them to defend it. It is great music that will be around for a long time, like bebop or gypsy jazz, as I said in my earlier post.

Bluegrass is still a young music but it's growing up. That means it's getting more diverse. There are still those folks around who insist bluegrass can only be what they define it as and, unfortunately, their definition is unnecessarily narrow. But the music is moving on. That doesn't mean it's abandoning its roots. Bluegrass isn't pop music. Like jazz, it will maintain its traditions while continuing to develop in new and interesting ways. And there ain't a thing anyone can do to stop that, thankfully.

Monroe was, and is, a mandolin hero to me. Nowadays, when I think of a tradional style bluegrass mandolinist, I can list guys like David Grisman and John Reischman. Both those guys play a wide variety of music but when they want to play bluegrass, they know exactly what to do. They both have a deep and abiding passion for bluegrass and are big champions of the music.

I can remember asking Reischman to form a tribute band at the Sorrento Bluegrass Workshop the year Monroe died (I was program director at the time). I felt really fortunate he had been hired that year because he was the perfect choice for the tribute. He had the chops and understood exactly what was being asked of him and why. In fact, we dedicated the whole workshop to Monroe that year, making every workshop themed around his music in some way. I spoke, off-the-cuff, about the first time I saw Monroe live and later on got kidded by some buddies because I got a little emotional and had a hard time speaking around the lump in my throat.

Personally, I prefer the hardcore, tradional stuff. But I'm not everyone. I like what I like and I'm happy to let others do the same.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Most of us think of Bluegrasss in terms of the sound made by the line-up of the band that 'defined' the sound ie. Banjo / Mandolin /
Guitar / Fiddle & Bass Fiddle. For me, that's IT !. Bill Monroe had the sense to know he'd got where he wanted to be & left it at that.
Players will always want to experiment with the line-up in their bands - that's terrific,but it's not & never will be trad.Bluegrass. It may be great in it's own right as per Bela Fleck's band,the "Flecktones",i saw them in 1992 in Manchester UK & they were awesome,but i didn't fool myslef into thinking that i was listening to Bluegrass music,i simply accepted it for what it was,good music.
I choose not to buy recorded music of that type,because i rely on my CD purchases for more 'music to learn',& what i want to learn is more Bluegrass in the trad.manner - that's for me,others obviously go their own respected ways,as indeed they should - it doesn't make them bad people !,:grin:
Ivan~:>

[Mike Bunting]

e "

I can remember asking Reischman to form a tribute band at the Sorrento Bluegrass Workshop the year Monroe died (I was program director at the time). I felt really fortunate he had been hired that year because he was the perfect choice for the tribute.

Personally, I prefer the hardcore, tradional stuff. But I'm not everyone. I like what I like and I'm happy to let others do the same.

They toured that show, I saw it in Edmonton with Michael Heiden on the fiddle. I remember it well since JR let me try out his Loar.

[ralph johansson]

Some day someone will find an intelligent use of percussion in Bluegrass. Joe Craven could do it, perhaps he already did. And I mean something more advanced than Ernie Newton's slap gadget or the mechanical and stiff use of a snare on Flatt&Scruggs or Jimmy Martin records. (yes, Martin used a snare on stage, too, way back. In the late 60's it was played by his son Ray.)
My main objection to the snare then was it tended to cover the guitar, without really contributing anything.
Roger Sprung tried a full drum set on his Folkways records producing a heavy-footed beat.

On YouTube there is a delightful video of Grisman and Bush racing through Daybreak in DIxie (Ralph's Banjo SPecial) with drums and flute. If that doesn't count as Bluegrass it's mainly because there's no fiddle or banjo, I suppose.

Labels are confusing enough, but people tend to forget that different labels denote different kinds of things. Jazz is a tradition, bebop is a stylistic concept, country is an industry, oldtime is a collective name for a great variety of individual and regional styles.
What do the Carter Family, Charlie Poole, and Gid Tanner have in common?

[mandolirius]

They toured that show, I saw it in Edmonton with Michael Heiden on the fiddle. I remember it well since JR let me try out his Loar.

Yeah, I was thrilled when they decided to keep the band going for a while. I can't say for sure, but I think the tremendous reception they received at the workshop may had something to do with it.

How it relates to this discussion is the fact that the band included a female bass player and tenor singer. So even though it didn't fit the bluegrass archetype, it was a true tribute band that really honoured the music of Bill Monroe. The goal was to capture the spirit of the music, not necessarily try and sound like a carbon copy of the real thing.

[GVD]

....For years Bobby sang high lead with lower harmonies....


The reason they went to the lower harmonies was because they had such a hard time finding anyone who could sing tenor to his high lead.

There was a period of time when Bobby did in fact probably have the greatest range of anybody out there.

[re simmers]

Bill, Earl, Lester, Chubby, Cedric...............John, Sam, Pat, Bela.............Alison, Ron, Dan, Barry, Jerry, Larry..............now that's good music! And it's bluegrass. And Bobby O....................good bluegrass music!

"Call me what you want, but don't call me collect!"

I guess that's kind of an old joke with cell phones, huh?

Bob

[Dan Johnson]

What would be the four main bluegrass instruments Willie referred to? What a bass-less argument... :)

[Fretbear]

It's not so much about purism, it's that in much hard-core bluegrass and string-band music it isn't necessary, it doesn't sound good, and it prevents huge amounts of amazing subtlety to be tastefully employed to great effect in the rhythm section by the best string players.
Much of what makes some of the best bluegrass so amazing (Flatt & Scruggs) is what is left out and not played, especially by the rhythm section.

[Scotti Adams]

Maybe I should clarify..the BEST tenor singer ever in BG Music..Willlie

[M.Marmot]

You know i think i know just how to solve this issue... warning stickers!

WARNING: Contains instruments some may find offensive.

I mean they have them for offensive lyrics and possible peanut contents... i dunno just thinking out loud.

Ara, no, hold on it would have to read

WARNING: Contains banjo and other instruments that some may find offensive.

[Willie Poole]

I know I said I was through with this post but there is something I want to add....When towns and cities got so large that ample space wasn`t around to build full size baseball fields they downsized the field by shortening the distance between bases from 90 ' to 60' and moved the pitchers rubber in from 60' to 40', the rules pretty much stayed the same although the game was different and you know what? They didn`t call it "Short Baseball" or "Progressive Baseball", they called it "Softball" because it wasn`t baseball anymore, just like bluegrass music, some of that stuff ain`t bluegrass anymore but people still call it bluegrass...Lets start a panel to find a new name and leave the word "Bluegrass" out altogether...I will forever feel this way because I am a diehard Bluegrass" fan....Bobby plays great music and he is making a living at it and I enjoy what he does on that album but from what I heard it just wasn`t bluegrass to me...Don`t jump on me for stating my opinions, please...And I shouldn`t have to list what four main instruments make up a traditional bluegrass band, just listen to the early Flatt and Scruggs and you will know what they are....Sure towards the end of their partner ship there were some drums on recordings and Earl wanted to branch out a little more like recording with his son Randy on an electric guitar and paying R&R....Thats why they split from what I have always heard.....I also heard that the reason they had a dobro was that Earl got hurt in a car accident and they had some shows booked and Lester used Buck Graves (Josh) to fill the void, people liked it so he kept him on as a regular, might just be a rumor but thats what I heard.....Willie

[mandolirius]

<some of that stuff ain`t bluegrass anymore but people still call it bluegrass...Lets start a panel to find a new name and leave the word "Bluegrass" out altogether...I will forever feel this way because I am a diehard Bluegrass" fan>

You're just not getting it, are you? What you like and I both like is traditional bluegrass. It's not going away and lots of bands play that style. But bluegrass is growing because it's alive. New generations are playing it, just not the same way folks did in the 40's and 50's. You can stick with what you like but you can't stop bluegrass from evolving. If that were to happen, the music would die.

There's no need for another useless label. Even if people are calling music bluegrass that you don't think is bluegrass, there's still lots of what you do consider bluegrass out there. The labels aren't important. Look at jazz, an almost meaningless term nowadays. You can't just say "it's jazz music". That could be anything from three guys with a laptops, samplers, a didgeredoo and a sax to five guys in striped jackets and straw hats playing dixieland. Music has to grow and develop new branches on the tree if it is to survive as a viable musical form.

Finally, if you don't want your opinions responded to, why state them in the first place? It's a public forum, designed for comment.

[re simmers]

When Alison Krauss, Adam Steffey, Ron Block, Barry Bales and Tim Stafford were playing, some diehards said that was not bluegrass. Banjo, mandolin, guitar, fiddle and bass? All superior musicians by anyone's standards. Harmony singing at its best. They even recorded Cluck Old Hen! Npw that's bluegrass.

Adam left and Jerry Douglas joined with his dobro.......I think that's the same as Lester & Earl........except for the Beverly Hillbillies appearances.

Larry the drummer then joined the band. Now that did it. It's a good thing they're named Union Station rather Bluegrass Station. They would have to change their name.

So what is it? The female lead singer? Can't be that. We've had them before. The syncopation with Alison's fiddle? Can't be that.....we've had that before. We know it's not the dobro.........Josh has already been mentioned. Must be that obnoxious Larry the drummer, huh? Poor Larry the drummer. Those drummers are all alike.

Poor Alison doesn't have a steel, piano or electric stuff, so they won't let her into those country joints........and now no bluegrass festivals! That's probably why they haven't been playing, ..................can't get any jobs, huh?

Poor Bobby Osborne.........if he doesn't make up his mind what he wants to play he won't be able to get any jobs either, huh?

~o)

Bob

[ralph johansson]

Frankly much of what is conceived by some people as experimentation, pushing the boundaries, etc., blahblahblah, was producer driven and motivated by survival rather than curiosity. At some point in their careers a few Bluegrass acts have adopted instruments and stylistic traits from country music, or, in Mike Seegers words, the Nashville treacle. To Jim&Jesse obviously their electric period was not their idea of modernizing or developing Bluegrass; there was a clear dividing line between these efforts and the Bluegrass they played in the festival season. For some reason Ricky Skaggs' country period is never mentioned in these discussions ...

One reason to be a bit more careful about the use of the label "Bluegrass" is that many musicians reject it. The Punch Brothers emphasize that they're not a Bluegrass band. Their audience is elsewhere. The Stringdusters' 3rd CD is their most potent to date,
and now they, too, refuse to be labelled Bluegrass. As Louise Scruggs said, Bluegrass is a very limiting word.

ANd, again, the trouble with most drumming in BG contexts (not to mention country!) is that it is stiff, mechanical, and predictable.

[mando_dan]

When Alison Krauss, Adam Steffey, Ron Block, Barry Bales and Tim Stafford were playing, some diehards said that was not bluegrass. Banjo, mandolin, guitar, fiddle and bass? All superior musicians by anyone's standards. Harmony singing at its best. They even recorded Cluck Old Hen! Npw that's bluegrass.

Adam left and Jerry Douglas joined with his dobro.......I think that's the same as Lester & Earl........except for the Beverly Hillbillies appearances.

Larry the drummer then joined the band. Now that did it. It's a good thing they're named Union Station rather Bluegrass Station. They would have to change their name.

So what is it? The female lead singer? Can't be that. We've had them before. The syncopation with Alison's fiddle? Can't be that.....we've had that before. We know it's not the dobro.........Josh has already been mentioned. Must be that obnoxious Larry the drummer, huh? Poor Larry the drummer. Those drummers are all alike.

Poor Alison doesn't have a steel, piano or electric stuff, so they won't let her into those country joints........and now no bluegrass festivals! That's probably why they haven't been playing, ..................can't get any jobs, huh?

Poor Bobby Osborne.........if he doesn't make up his mind what he wants to play he won't be able to get any jobs either, huh?

Bob

Great post Bob, harsh, but great!

[Martian]

This is , and will continue, IMHO, an ongoing arguement. I , personally , am not a proponent of drums in my BG, but in no way go running in down the streets when I hear it. I also agree with some of the posts that suggest that all musics change and stretch, and even grow in new directions. I love tradition in my music, I also love to be surprised and refreshed with new ideas and feelings about music that new musicians with their own inspirations, that may have not been there in their time of development. Would Flattt and Scruggs for example, have the same sound if someone like the Beatles pre-dated them? Who knows. I don't think we can all be the ???? mountain boys, or write songs as if we lived in that little cabin home , I live in flint Mi., but I just hope BG does not stretch until it is unrecognizable to me. I pity the real country fans whose music is now on small AM stations and is no longer mainstream. That said , I have been told that in Detroit, and Flint, there has been in youger musicians , a rebirth in real country music. As per usual, the younger musicians are looking for something new, and have discovered something old. Nothing new. This is an old subject matter, but I love it and the debate, or thoughts that it will always incourage. Pick on

[Psyberbilly]

I have no dog in this hunt , but will throw this log on the fire . Was it "bluegrass " music when Big Mon used the accordion on his recordings ? I love the traditional instrumentation of fiddle , mandolin , guitar , bass , and banjo , but would find it tough to tell Bill to his face that his recordings with the accordion were not bluegrass . Most people in this time accept dobro as a "bluegrass" instrument , but I have been led to believe that Bill was not an advocate of the choice . As with most issues of taste , it is impossible to prove or disprove ones point or counter point . I have a coworker who will not consider eating brownies with nuts in them , I find them the perfect accent . He puts beans in his chili , I say if it has anything besides meat in it , it's stew , not chili . Who is wrong , and who is right ? He is . And I am .

[Psyberbilly]

The reason they went to the lower harmonies was because they had such a hard time finding anyone who could sing tenor to his high lead.

There was a period of time when Bobby did in fact probably have the greatest range of anybody out there.

Isn't it funny how often we make an adjustment for some cicumstance ( the Osborn's upside down stacking of the harmonies , Django learning to play with his disfigured hand ) and out of that adjustment comes a defining " style " . We all work with what we have . When Bill was learning music , there was no way he and Uncle Pen could have carried a full kit on a mule to dance , even had they wanted to . He learned that the rhythm would have to be provided by stringed instruments , that is what he did and it stuck .
I am left to wonder what bluegrass music would sound like now if the intruments lying around Bill's childhood home had been the trombone , the harp , and the flute instead of fiddle, guitar , and mandolin .

[ralph johansson]

Isn't it funny how often we make an adjustment for some cicumstance ( the Osborn's upside down stacking of the harmonies , Django learning to play with his disfigured hand ) and out of that adjustment comes a defining " style " . We all work with what we have . When Bill was learning music , there was no way he and Uncle Pen could have carried a full kit on a mule to dance , even had they wanted to . He learned that the rhythm would have to be provided by stringed instruments , that is what he did and it stuck .
I am left to wonder what bluegrass music would sound like now if the intruments lying around Bill's childhood home had been the trombone , the harp , and the flute instead of fiddle, guitar , and mandolin .

Monroe became a full-time professinal in 1934, a recording artist in 1936, and a band leader in 1939. Yet most of us date the birth of Bluegrass to late 1945, when Scruggs joined the group. The reason for this is that the earlier editions of the group didn't create a genre; they weren't far enough from the mainstream. By this token the accordion band precedes all of bluegrass. Can you think of any group that modeled itself on that group?

Of course (I've said this before) the reason that a lot of people reject the idea of an accordion in a Bluegrass band is that they don't like accordions.

[Willie Poole]

Ralph is correct. Bill didn`t use an accordian after Flat and Scruggs joined up with him and the term "Bluegrass" was adopted...As far as adding different instruments to a band and still have the "Bluegrass" flavor how about a hammer dulcimer? I love the sound of them and have jammed with some good 'strikers" while in Florida and myself I prefer them to a dobro that has a player that slides up to the notes he is playing, sure makes singing on key hard for me....

[Fretbear]

Folks are getting a little bit imaginative here now. Any band Monroe ever had was not bluegrass; it was his 1946 edition of the band with Flatt, Scruggs, Watts and Wise that struck the coin. On the subject of percussion, old-time mountain music, which was the ground from which bluegrass sprung, has always been primarily string based, with even cello being sometimes used before the widespread use of guitars became common. And yes, I do reject accordions (not only in bluegrass) because I just don't like them.

[AlanN]

I'm with you, Willie. I can't take that dobro slidey stuff too much.