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View Full Version : Chords .... is this a common Mandolin thing?



hedgehog
Sep-27-2010, 12:08pm
I've posted before about being aan absolute beginner so this road is a new one for me. Naturally the first thing I did was go out and get a beginners book on Bluegrass Mandolin. The very first Chord it teachs is "G" and what a tedious chord it is with a serious reach with the pinky finger. It's not a big deal really, it just takes some time to learn well. I mention this as only background.

This weekend while in a music store I wandered over to the instrument books and start looking at the chord books for the mandolin. I have to admit that now I'm becomming a bit confused. First I looked at the "G" chord, What? Then I looked at the other Chords I knew. What? Then I started comparing the chords on a chord sheet, a chord book and a beginners book. WHAT! Many of the Chord shapes were not the same in any of the books or the "G" chord was the same as the "Gb" (forgive the inaccurate symbol it's as close as I've got on this keyboard) chord. Is this common? Which is right or are they actually ALL right. I must say that the two finger "G" chord is much easier to play than the four finger chord, but somehow that feels lazy......

Michael

Brent Hutto
Sep-27-2010, 12:12pm
Bluegrass accompaniment relies heavily on four-finger chords that can be played in a certain style called a "chop". Basically you need no open strings so that you can coordinate your hands and cut off each chord a split-second after it is strummed.

Beginner bluegrass mandolin books do indeed start you out on one of the more difficult techniques of mandolin playing. Makes me glad I'm not a bluegrasser!

hedgehog
Sep-27-2010, 12:22pm
So the "Chop" is the reason for the beginning four finger "G" chord. I've mentioned before that I'm a home 5 string banjo player, yes even a banjo player knows how to chop. ;) I must say that this is an interesting approach, kind of like throwing you in the fire to see if you've got what it takes to come out the other side still trying. I must say, my fingers hurt today, but in a good way and they are getting tougher very quickly. One problem I might have with this thouygh is that I injured my left hand pinky's middle joint while in the service and it's never healed with much strength. Actually this injury took me out of playing the banjo and I've only just returned a few years ago. At 52 it's not as easyt as it used to be, but it's also esier to pay attention than it was back then.

raulb
Sep-27-2010, 12:23pm
I am no expert but just as there is more than one way to skin a cat, there are many ways to make the same chord. With the mandolin, you have 2 finger "open" chords which are said to "ring" (because all 8 strings are played); you have "chop " chords which can be 3 (usually with one pair of strings muted) or 4 finger chords. A 4 finger chop chord is usually also a "barre" chord. Chop chords are usually played for the percussion more than for the chord sound. Even so, as long a you have the triad, you can make-up your own chords too.

For example, you can play a "C" chord with 2 or 3 fingers in at least 5 different ways and places on the fretboard.

You mention the "G." There is a 2 finger "G" chord as well as at least 5 of the 3 finger variety.

2 finger chords are not laziness. It all depends upon what effect and sound you are going for. Me, I like my chords to ring but I will play chop too.

Capt. E
Sep-27-2010, 12:24pm
The four finger chord shape known as a "chop chord" is stressed heavily and the G is the hardest one to get. I really didn't understand many of the "moveable" chords until I got the book "Fretboard Roadmap Mandolin". Now I understand the relationships between all the chord forms much better than I had before. It transformed my ability to play chord accompaniment. Check it out.

Pen
Sep-27-2010, 12:31pm
I'd recommend starting with the 2 finger G - move the the 3 finger G (minus the pinky) and then, when you're ready, add the 4 finger G. Frankly, I use the 3 finger G more than I use the chomp version.

If you're physically unable to make the 4 finger G - don't worry about it. There's always more than 1 way to skin a cat. You can always leave out 1-2 strings (well - that would be 2-4 I suppose!) and just not strum them. It's not the perfect way - but if it works for you - great!

Have fun!

hedgehog
Sep-27-2010, 12:37pm
At this point I think the pinky will come around, it's just not as flexible as it used to be and the joint pops out a bit from time to time, it's not a big deal and actually this might be the best thing for it. movement and strength building couldn't hurt. There are many up the neck pinky moves on the banjo that I absolutely couldn't get a while ago, but they are becomming easier and easier as time goes on, the mandolin is just a bit tighter and reaching accross three strings to pop down on the fourth string is tricky to do cleanly.

Denny Gies
Sep-27-2010, 12:44pm
If you want to play bluegrass keep up the training with the four finger chords. Your little finger will come along and it will become natural after a while. The investment you make in the beginning, doing it "right", will pay off in spades down the road.

hedgehog
Sep-27-2010, 12:58pm
With all this being said, it does surprise me to see the Chord books NOT agreeing on what the proper Chord should be. In banjo books and guitar books they pretty much ALL agree on Chords why id the mandolin so flexible?

EdHanrahan
Sep-27-2010, 1:01pm
It sounds like your basic points of confusion are similar to mine, several years ago.

The first, and more easily explained, is that the compressed scale of the mandolin (as opposed to guitar where many of us started) has so many chord-tone options, and so many chord shapes, so readily available that it seems overwhelming at first. But that's the nature of the beast: You can choose from really simple to really complex (chord shapes, number of fingers), and they all work at least half-way well, regardless of the context.

Your/my second point of confusion was assuming that "beginner bluegrass" equates with "beginner mandolin". And/or that "bluegrass" equates with "simple". Those can be points of endless debate but, per your stretched & tangled fretting fingers, I needn't elaborate. (Fortunately, my guitar experience made the G-chop chord not too impossible. Four-finger five-string C-formation D chord at the 2nd fret is sort of similar).

I'll finish by guessing that if, like most of us, you played guitar previously, you started by viewing mando as "just a little guitar", with different tuning. But fretting-hand technique, with 2 frets per finger (that too many beginner books don't mention, in my experience) is nothing like guitar; it's actually much closer to that fretless cousin, the fiddle.

I eventually did find a good beginner book that, yes, pays attention to bluegrass: Greg Horne's "Beginning Mandolin" takes an approach that seems effective whether or not you have prior musical experience. The series also includes his "Intermediate Mandolin", as well as Wayne Fugate's "Advanced Mandolin". They come with CD, and some have mentioned versions w/ DVD.

Hope this helps!

Ed Goist
Sep-27-2010, 1:02pm
Hi Michael:

I seem to always be referencing this chart (http://donrickert.typepad.com/downloads/Common_Fiddle_Chords_for_Standard_Tuning.pdf), but I do think it's incredibly useful, and that it explains a lot!

As you'll see from the chart, any combination of the notes G (chord root), B (the 3rd harmony of G) and D (the 5th harmony of G) [and only these notes] will form a G major chord.

As Brent point out, the four finger chop chord for G (7-5-2-3 or D-G-B-G) is useful in bluegrass because it can be muted almost immediately after being played. Another HUGE benefit of a 'closed position chord' (a chord without any open strings) like this is that the shape is movable up and down the neck. For example, the 4 finger G you're working on becomes G# (G sharp) if moved one fret down (higher in pitch) on the neck, and becomes A if moved one more fret down (to 9-7-4-5 or E-A-C#-A - look at the chart for the A chord).

The bottom line here is that there are many, many ways to form each chord (called 'voicings'). Two of the best tools a mandolin player can have are:
- A thorough knowledge of the fretboard as an array of notes, and
- An understanding of the many ways to use theses notes together to form chord shapes.

Finally, something interesting about the G major chord...I was discussing all of this with a close friend of mine who is quite knowledgeable about music theory, and he told me that the simple, basic two finger G chord (0-0-2-3 or G-D-B-G) has what he called a 'pure' G chord tone because it has the root in the treble AND in the bass, while it also has the 3rd and 5th sequentially in pitch high to low. Pretty cool, huh?

hedgehog
Sep-27-2010, 1:05pm
Hmmm another thing that just came to me, at the same time I injured my pinky the wrist was injured as well. When playing and holding what I call the "BIG" chords on a guitar the wrist becomes painful fairly quickly, but with the mandolin (as well as the banjo) I haven't experienced the same trouble.

Brent Hutto
Sep-27-2010, 1:10pm
One reason I looked at remote/online mandolin teachers instead of searching locally was that I'm pretty sure around my neck of the woods anyone hanging out a shingle to teach mandolin lessons will be working from the assumption that either your first goal or at least a goal very soon down the line after the first one is to play rhythm mandolin in a bluegrass jam session or band. And I think that would be correct for approximately 100% of the people around here who would take up mandolin in the first place. But I have a notion that lessons can get frustrating if what I want is fundamentally at odd with what the teacher expects me to want.

That said, Ed G. has it right about the movable nature of those 4-finger beasts. There are a couple of basic shapes that are hard as heck to get proficient at but once you are proficient with them, you can play (backup) a huge variety of stuff from just those few basic shapes.

And totally second Ed H.'s point that a mandolin is a plucked fiddle and not a "little guitar".

Rob Gerety
Sep-27-2010, 1:26pm
I must say, I think you would be well served by saving those 4 finger chop chords for later - maybe a year or so - in favor of getting some similar chord shapes (partials of the 4 finger chops but with 3 fingers) in your bag of tricks. I recommend that you take a look at "Free Mandolin . com" (see banner at top of page). Brad Laird has many excellent free or inexpensive lessons - but his book if very very good as well. The chord shapes he teaches can be converted to the 4 finger chop chords over time and in the meantime you will be able to play easily and you will gain an understanding of how the chords move around the fretboard in a given key in a triangle relationship. Good stuff.

Also, the Mike Marshall 2 DVD video lessons are excellent - especially when it comes to getting broad understanding of the chords up and down the neck. He does a great job with that.

Ed Goist
Sep-27-2010, 1:26pm
One reason I looked at remote/online mandolin teachers instead of searching locally was that I'm pretty sure around my neck of the woods anyone hanging out a shingle to teach mandolin lessons will be working from the assumption that either your first goal or at least a goal very soon down the line after the first one is to play rhythm mandolin in a bluegrass jam session or band...snip...

This has also been my experience. The only instructor I could find in my area is roughly one hour away. Also, although I enjoy working with him, he remains shocked and bewildered that I have no interest in playing bluegrass. (He uses Tottle's Bluegrass Mandolin as the instruction manual, and fortunately, I think it's a fine 'general purpose' manual for starters.)

hedgehog
Sep-27-2010, 1:29pm
Interestingly enough, I didn't start with the guitar. My room mate in college was a banjo player, he educated me to the fact that banjo or any stringed instrument wasn't an impossible task only given to the few truly gifted musicians among us. He humanized music for me. So my road started with the 5 string banjo, Earl Scruggs (God Bless Earl) and his "The 5 String Banjo" book. I'm not and never will be a great player of any sort, but I do love it so and can make decent banjo like sounds. The mandolin was always just rythmic noise to me until recently. As written before Joe Walsh (the Gibson Brothers) stepped up to the mic, from the first notes of "The Farm of Yesterday" I fell in love with the tone of the mandolin, it became alive, it was almost like a door opening to a new world, like in the "Wizard of Ozz", a new world. Surprisingly folks that I didn't really care for, like Bill Monroe, came to life as well. With my background the Mandolin actually never was a little guitar, it was more like what was said above, a plicked Violin. This is new, it's fun.....................

SincereCorgi
Sep-27-2010, 1:44pm
Hmmm another thing that just came to me, at the same time I injured my pinky the wrist was injured as well. When playing and holding what I call the "BIG" chords on a guitar the wrist becomes painful fairly quickly, but with the mandolin (as well as the banjo) I haven't experienced the same trouble.

There are easier G and C and D chords, but the 'chop' chords are standard and arguably the thing makes rhythm mandolin sound like what most people think of as rhythm mandolin. The open chords sound sound more 'chime'-y and get used more often as an exclamation point or special effect. For most genres, rhythm means chop, and chop means chop chords unless you are really deft at muting your strings.


What I found after playing for a while is that I'd been using too much brute strength to get the chop chords, when what you really need is a modest amount of pressure and a very exact chord-shape in the hand. If your hand hurts after practicing big chords for a few minutes, shake your hand out, take a break, and think about whether you could make the same shape with less tension in your hand... try to keep your fingers 'standing up straight' and all that sort of good advice. The other thing is to consider what you're doing with your thumb- I started with a 'classical guitar' thumb position, which leads to finger pain and bad finger position. Changing to a 'violin' grip solved a lot of my problems (as a banjoist, you may already have that part sorted out).

Anyway, hope you're enjoying it. After a year or so, all the chords and tremolo and stuff will have come, you just have to keep showing up, but I'm sure you already got that from banjo.

Michael Nelson
Sep-27-2010, 8:16pm
Uhhh .... it's Jack Tuttle, not Tottle. I see his name misspelled here a lot. I took fiddle lessons from him at Gryphon Music in Palo Alto a while back.... he's a very nice guy.

http://www.jacktuttle.com/

EDIT:

Ooops! There IS a Jack Tottle and a Jack Tuttle, and they both have Bluegrass mandolin books out. Made a fool of myself again!

Mike Bunting
Sep-27-2010, 8:35pm
Uhhh .... it's Jack Tuttle, not Tottle. I see his name misspelled here a lot. I took fiddle lessons from him at Gryphon Music in Palo Alto a while back.... he's a very nice guy.

http://www.jacktuttle.com/

EDIT:

Ooops! There IS a Jack Tottle and a Jack Tuttle, and they both have Bluegrass mandolin books out. Made a fool of myself again!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Tottle

Brent Hutto
Sep-27-2010, 8:42pm
Ooops! There IS a Jack Tottle and a Jack Tuttle, and they both have Bluegrass mandolin books out. Made a fool of myself again!

I'll bet he gets that a lot. What are the odds?