Had to use my mandolin capo! LOL!

[jim_n_virginia]

Got a gig backing up a local singer/songwriter Folkie type at a festival last Saturday and just before we play she tells me she learned a fiddle tune for me because she knows I like them.

I say cool which one? She says I learned "St. Anne's Reel" ... then she put her capo on her guitar and does in in the key of F because she sings The Ballad Of St Anne's Reel with it! LOL!

She plays it fairly fast so I highly doubt I could have transposed it on the fly that fast.

Anyways when you need one you need one! :))

[Brent Hutto]

It's a good feeling when you've got a hammer you never get to use and then, once in a great while, you encounter a nail...Bang!

[Mandobart]

Yep I keep a cheater clamp in every case. Sometimes I start jamming with the guys and one of them suggests a song I've never heard, let alone know how to play. I just capo at whatever fret the guitar is on and then its a whole lot easier to follow.

[Tim2723]

Now to get him playing plastic mandolins! :grin:

[KennyE]

My singer likes Ab and Eb. I capo all the time!! Hoping as we move the mandolin into the mix that she can get over those childhood notions of #'s and b's. Oh, she likes the key of F just as well. Argh!!

[jim_n_virginia]

Now to get him playing plastic mandolins! :grin:

maybe cabon fiber but never plastic! LOL! :))

[8ch(pl)]

We have a Contralto in our band that sings in odd keys.

[Tim2723]

In my tenure as a church organist I accompanied several solos for contralto voice. They were invariably in unusual keys. The contralto is the mandola of the vocal world.

[Patrick Hull]

Jim,

Im surprised to hear that you used the capo....not disappointed, but surprised. I, too have used one upon occasion for those hymns in what seemed to me to be difficult keys. I'm wondering though, if FFCP wouldn't have worked? Again, not questioning your choice, just curious.

[Dick Hutchings]

I use one occasionally for the same reason I use it on guitars. To hear them open strings ring. I can play a song in F but it sounds better to me played in D capo 3rd fret. I'm not going to worry too much about the capo police but I do try to play without one most of the time.

[DerTiefster]

.... several solos for contralto voice..... invariably in unusual keys. The contralto is the mandola of the vocal world.So, how about using a mandola for accompaniment. Maybe you could just ignore the transposition and end up in a compatible key with no particular effort. Stranger things have happened.

[CES]

Good for you, brother...way to make your music and handle your business!!!

Patrick, ffcp and on the fly transposition probably would have worked fine, but think about it like a quarterback trying to audible at the line of scrimmage...you've got to know it cold to make it work, and a live gig isn't the place to be "working through it." Manning, Brees, Brady, insert loved or hated QB of your choice here " ", are great in their offenses...put a QB who doesn't know their offense in that situation, and look out! Actually, probably a better example (knowing that Jim's been doing this well for a while) would be to take your favorite quarterback and stick them into an offense they don't have down. That said, your point is taken!!

[Elliot Luber]

That's when a capo pays off.

[CES]

So, how about using a mandola for accompaniment. Maybe you could just ignore the transposition and end up in a compatible key with no particular effort. Stranger things have happened.

Is there a "mandola" setting on the church organ?

(Sorry, couldn't resist :) )

[DerTiefster]

I -have- heard of electronic organs with arbitrary key reprogramming features, but my problem was that I read Tim's post as saying "tenure as church [musician]" instead of what he actually wrote: "...church organist...". Mea culpa. I thought he was speaking of stringed accompaniment.

[roscoestring]

I had to use my capo once too.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee210/roscoestring/001-56-1.jpg

[journeybear]

I inherited a couple of capos over the years and left one in my case as well as my tuning fork, and they both saw the same amount of use. ;) I had better luck convincing a singer that singing a song in G or A instead of Ab wouldn't be such a big change for her but be a lot easier for me - and thus us - and once she saw and heard what I meant she was cool with it. :cool:

Way at the other end of the spectrum, one time at a jam a singer wanted to do "Mack The Knife." She had it in her mind to modulate up a half step for every verse - without telling anyone! :disbelief: Even Bobby Darin didn't do it that often, I don't think. Figured out what was going on soon enough, so I managed. Somehow we ended up in D when it came time for breaks, so I jumped in quick before it could change to Eb! :)) Actually, I shouted out "Stay in D!" so anyone who wanted to take a ride would have an easier time. After a few solos she started singing again - in Eb! :crying: And so on ... I yi yi! There aren't enough capos for that.

[CES]

I -have- heard of electronic organs with arbitrary key reprogramming features, but my problem was that I read Tim's post as saying "tenure as church [musician]" instead of what he actually wrote: "...church organist...". Mea culpa. I thought he was speaking of stringed accompaniment.

I know, man...I really was just kidding...

I saw a guitarist in an acoustic guitar mag that uses multiple partial capos up and down the fretboard within the same song...looked crazy, but way too much work and theory knowledge required for me...

[journeybear]

I've seen that too - a capo up the neck from a capo, so the lower capo can be removed and a key change can be effected mid-song.

The best mid-song capo adjustment I have ever seen - by far - was by Bonnie Raitt on Saturday Night Live. In the middle of "Something To Talk About," there is a key change. At this time the band has broken down to just percussion and slide guitar - handled by the second guitarist - while Bonnie sings the first half of the refrain. While she"s doing this she takes the capo, clipped to her mike stand, and places it at the desired fret. Then she's ready to go when the band kicks in full force - all in just eight bars. It's a slight, sly, subtle thing, and I only picked up on it on a repeat, but it's so smoothly done it's easy to miss. (There's also the considerable distraction of her percussionist and backup singer, Debra Dobkin.)

Hmmm ... Can't find it - dang hulu - but here's another clip from that tour. Don't see the exact move but you'll see it magically appear on the third fret soon after. :cool:


Z04r_tlWdRs

[sgarrity]

Blasphemer!!! :))

[journeybear]

Howzat - magically appearing capo, or that there could be someone onstage more bonny than Bonnie? :confused:

It is better when you can see it, but hulu clamps down on NBC broadcasts, and finding a 19-year-old clip there is rarer than hen's teeth ...

10/26/91 Christian Slater host - happy hunting!

[JeffD]

I think she puts the capo on at 2:34.

[journeybear]

It happens off camera, so you can't tell exactly when. The key change hits at 2:22, and she starts playing again at 2:31, but you can't see her guitar until 2:33, with the capo on. The SNL video is much better for showing this, as it stays on her the whole time. The casualness with which she does this is really cool. I have this in my VHS collection, which doesn't help anyone else. If this episode ever comes up on the reruns on VH1 I'll try to remember to mention it.

[jim_n_virginia]

Jim,

Im surprised to hear that you used the capo....not disappointed, but surprised. I, too have used one upon occasion for those hymns in what seemed to me to be difficult keys. I'm wondering though, if FFCP wouldn't have worked? Again, not questioning your choice, just curious.

FFCP would have worked if she played it slower but this gal is a pretty brisk flatpicker and in the Key of F the fingering would be completely different from what I am used to playing. Now I have a pretty good ear and knowledge of the fretboard but I wanted open strings to ring out and I didn't want to stumble while transposing very quickly like that.... in other words I took the easy way out!

We must have played the tune pretty good because two people were mesmerized watching us play and she signed up both as new guitar students after our set was done. LOL! :mandosmiley:

[Chuck Naill]

I once had a professional musician say that he used a capo on a mandolin. He does a lot of session recording as well as public performance. Since then I use a capo to achieve the sound I am after. Open strings for the type of music we play in our praise and worship group just sounds better for backing up and responding to vocalists who sing in E and F.

[ralph johansson]

We have a Contralto in our band that sings in odd keys.

I'm confused by expressions such as "odd", "strange", "difficult", and "unusual" keys. What exactly do these words mean? E.g., in my experience, such keys as F, Bb, and Eb are among the most common of all. I concede that I don't play that much in Db or F# , for lack of material. But if a singer or player insisted on using these I'd jump at the opportunity - I'm sure I would discover completely new things. Isn't that why we play with others?

[Tim2723]

I -have- heard of electronic organs with arbitrary key reprogramming features, but my problem was that I read Tim's post as saying "tenure as church [musician]" instead of what he actually wrote: "...church organist...". Mea culpa. I thought he was speaking of stringed accompaniment.

You're right about that Michael. Many of the newer electronic organs have a transposing feature, and several of the major manufacturers offer it. It's not a new idea though. Harpsichords have had transposing keyboards for a long time. You literally slide the manual back and forth. You can play any key while fingering in C, for instance.

[Tim2723]

I'm confused by expressions such as "odd", "strange", "difficult", and "unusual" keys. What exactly do these words mean? E.g., in my experience, such keys as F, Bb, and Eb are among the most common of all. I concede that I don't play that much in Db or F# , for lack of material. But if a singer or player insisted on using these I'd jump at the opportunity - I'm sure I would discover completely new things. Isn't that why we play with others?

Well, in the way I used the terms earlier they aren't meant to be disparaging. For the church organist there are certain expected keys for various popular tunes. For instance, if the hymnal in my church has Amazing Grace in the key of G, I can pretty well count on finding it in G no matter what church I'm playing in. Tunes end up in certain keys to allow the average, untrained voice to sing comfortably. It's not that all the keys aren't present, but you come to expect a certain tune in a certain key. But an arrangement for contralto voice, being specific to that range, might be in a different key than expected. It might be in Eb. There's nothing wrong with Eb, but you're used to playing that tune in G. Therefore it becomes odd, strange and unusual, and believe me, more difficult than you might think.

[bobby bill]

It's not a new idea though. Harpsichords have had transposing keyboards for a long time.

Yes. And Irving Berlin composed on a transposing piano. He liked to play mostly the black keys but realized that variations in key might be a good thing.

[Brent Hutto]

ZKtKn5Et524&p]Loudon Wainwright III - Another Song in C

Here's another song in C
When I play piano it's my key
If I was playing my guitar
It'd probably be in G the chances are...

[mandopete]

The shame!

[Daniel Nestlerode]

I'm with you Jim!
I use a capo on my 'dola (tuned EBF#C#) all the time. Would have done exactly as you did. The singer pulled a new tune out of the bag at a gig: no time to rehearse, different key. This what capos are meant for!

Daniel

[epicentre]

A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do.

That's what they is for.

Capos that is.

[JeffD]

If you are going to use a capo, for what ever reason, I advise you to do it boldly, and without apology. :)

[allenhopkins]

I'm with you Jim!
I use a capo on my 'dola (tuned EBF#C#) all the time.

Interesting that the "Capo Police" only appear when it's a mandolin that's capoed; mandola, OM, mandocello all seem capo-able without comment.

[Michael Eck]

My mandolin capo actually has a name. It's called "The Frank Capo."

In one of my main groups, Lost radio Rounders, the singer loves to do songs in F, so I've just learned to live with it. He also does things in other tough keys and it's been helping my playing to follow him and learn the fretboard along the way.

But I also often gig with my friend Frank Jaklitsch, who tends to play lots of stuff in DADGAD and in tough keys. To follow him (at bar gigs where he just pulls out one song after another) I need to have those strings ringing because often if you play the actual chords he's implying (particularly minor chords), they clash.

I just put on "The Frank Capo" and diddle away in D while he sings in F. Problem solved.

[ralph johansson]

Interesting that the "Capo Police" only appear when it's a mandolin that's capoed; mandola, OM, mandocello all seem capo-able without comment.

I don't play these larger instruments but I can imagine that open string effects are much more useful on these given the deeper range and longer sustain. The one
mandolin-specific device I can think of is cross-picking where you often fret high
on two courses and leave one course open for a delightfully dissonant effect.

But I think I should say something about the obnoxious term "capo police",
once and for all.

The didactic issue is - and I believe it's been said 173 times - not whether you use a capo, but how you use it. I won't detail this here, because I, and a few other people, have done this repeatedly in earlier threads. It's about constructive advice, not criticism, and it
has almost always been offered in a friendly and encouraging spirit, e.g., those "odd",
"strange" or "tough" keys are not difficult at all.

How such helpful information and advice can be conceived of as "policeing" is not that easy to understand, and I think I should keep my speculations to myself.

However, I'm pretty sure such misprepresentation of other people's motives explains the absence of some prominent educators on this forum. One stopped posting 1 1/2 years ago, another one has not posted since June this year, and yet another one posts only sporadically these days. I'm certainly not a prominent educator but I'm reluctant to give any kind of advice to anyone any more. And I really think beginners should turn elsewhere for instruction.

[Spencer]

She plays it fairly fast so I highly doubt I could have transposed it on the fly that fast.



I think you made the right call. After reading this thread, I've been messing around with it in F. So far I haven't found anything that sounds as nearly as good as what you would get with the capo. Some tunes work ok in D or f (Beaumont Rag, Fisher's Hornpipe), but so far I don't see St. Anne's as one. Be fun to see if somebody can come up with a good playable version in F.

Spencer

[Tim2723]

Interesting that the "Capo Police" only appear when it's a mandolin that's capoed; mandola, OM, mandocello all seem capo-able without comment.

In the course of my observations, I have become convinced that the "Capo Police" do not concern themselves with other mandolin-family instruments simply because they are not used in traditional, preservationist Bluegrass. It seems to me that the CP are a Bluegrass-specific bunch who seldom recognise the role of other mandolin-family instruments or the relevance (or often presence) of the mandolin in other musical forms. As I've come to understand the term, the Capo Police are those who tend to imply that the capo has no use whatsoever with a mandolin and that any player who uses one is in some way substandard.

[journeybear]

I'll just make one observation regarding capo use. Back in the late 90s when I saw Lucinda Williams maybe twenty times, I noticed she used a capo a lot, often on the second fret. So for songs in A she would be using G forms, for songs in E she would be using D forms, and so on. It dawned on me that she could have been doing this not only for the obvious purpose of producing a fuller sound by using different voicings than the other guitarists, but also mixing the more major-sounding chords she was using with the more minor-sounding chords the band was using - similar to the way the blues straddle the line between major and minor. I never did ask her about this, so it is open for interpretation, but that was my insight.

As I said earlier, I have owned capos but never used them. And have managed fine without them. :mandosmiley:

[roscoestring]

I generally play every weekend with a group of guys doing mostly gospel, country, and a little vintage rock thrown in. Most recently I have taken my emando due to the large numbers of guitar players there. I counted 10 guitars and one bass on stage last weekend. But that's another story. I use my capo and do it frequently. Whether I play mandolin, banjo, or guitar. Haven't used it on bass or dobro yet. The "old timers" hate the capo. They can not figure out what chord you're going to when they look at your chording fingers. But still they will use bar chords which are confusing to some. And wouldn't bar chords be about the same as a capoed chord? I think that if in the end it sounds ok then it is ok to play with the capo.

The term "capo police" to me has always just been a term used to group together those that frown on the use of the capo for lack of a better term. I've never found it offensive.

[Bernie Daniel]

When I first started mandolin (from guitar) I thought capos for mandolins made perfect sense. But since "everyone" said that "no one" uses a capo on a mandolin I stopped considering it as an option.

Reading this string makes me think it might be a good idea at least to have one in your case. I read several strings over on some banjo forums that suggest the that choice of which capo can be a very debatable topic. So what kind of a capo do you (who use them) recommend for a mandolin?

[ralph johansson]

I generally play every weekend with a group of guys doing mostly gospel, country, and a little vintage rock thrown in. Most recently I have taken my emando due to the large numbers of guitar players there. I counted 10 guitars and one bass on stage last weekend. But that's another story. I use my capo and do it frequently. Whether I play mandolin, banjo, or guitar. Haven't used it on bass or dobro yet. The "old timers" hate the capo. They can not figure out what chord you're going to when they look at your chording fingers. But still they will use bar chords which are confusing to some. And wouldn't bar chords be about the same as a capoed chord? I think that if in the end it sounds ok then it is ok to play with the capo.

The term "capo police" to me has always just been a term used to group together those that frown on the use of the capo for lack of a better term. I've never found it offensive.

I find it very offensive to group people together and label them without the slightest regard to their actual statements. Perhaps you could validate the label by naming at least one of these police officers, and quoting him.

[ralph johansson]

I think you made the right call. After reading this thread, I've been messing around with it in F. So far I haven't found anything that sounds as nearly as good as what you would get with the capo. Some tunes work ok in D or f (Beaumont Rag, Fisher's Hornpipe), but so far I don't see St. Anne's as one. Be fun to see if somebody can come up with a good playable version in F.

Spencer

Beamont Rag is very typically an F tune. The key of D is not nearly as good, especially not for an accompanying guitarist.


I too tried St Anne in F. The first part works very well in 1st, although I shift a certain chord form upwards over the IV and V chords at the end. The second part invites various fingerings, should I do it in 3rd all the way or use 4th for the highest segment.

However, I don't think that is a very good range for that tune. I would gladly do it in Eb. Of course, in the context alluded to, maybe someone else was stating the melody allowing you to improvise, possibly an approximation of the tune, or something even freer. But anyone who believes the key of F
as such is particularly tricky or tough is simply misinformed.

[roscoestring]

I find it very offensive to group people together and label them without the slightest regard to their actual statements. Perhaps you could validate the label by naming at least one of these police officers, and quoting him.

I'm sorry. I may have not made it clear enough. I have never used the term capo police myself. But I have heard others use it and that's when I felt that they were using the term as a general grouping term. I am fairly new to this forum and do not know the people here well enough to quote any of them but likewise I have not heard anyone here use the term in a way that made me stand up and take note of it. The people I've heard (most often) use the term are people that I play with or those on other forums.

I play almost weekly with one guy (his name is Billy Ingram) that is very distraught every time someone puts a capo on their insturment. Of the 10 guitars that I spoke of on my last post, about 8 of them would capo when playing in the key of B, Bb, or F. Not Billy. He would sit there with his arms folded and laying on top of his guitar until the song was over. It wasn't that he couldn't play in those keys, but rather he was just angry that, first, the person had to sing in that key (he does not like to play in those keys either), and second, everyone else had to use their capo.

Please don't take offense to what I say. I have never said anything to intentionally offend someone. I'm just offering up my experiences and things that I have seen. Like I said in the previous post, I use my capo all the time. I love my capo. And it doesn't bother me that someone would hate me for using it. To me a capo is just a tool used to make a job easier. Much like a microphone or music notes make a job easier. And there are those that don't like mics or music sheets too.

Last week I was asked to play bass for a bluegrass group that was called up at the last minute to do a 30 segment at the local music hall. They were a thrown together group consisting of a mandolin, 2 guitars, and a fiddle. They were all playing acoustic instruments. There was only one bass there that night and it was an electric bass. The guy that owned the bass felt that he was not experienced enough to play with the group and asked if I would do so. I feel that I am not experienced enough either, but did agree to play because this bassist was so unsure of himself - and I was "unafraid". One guitarist in the group made the statement that they couldn't play bluegrass with an electric bassist. I smiled and continued doing what I had been asked. After the segment was over the complaining guitarist thanked me for helping out. It turned out that the other guitarist was even more unexperienced than I, and had it not been for my solid bass notes, the group would most definately have been thrown off by the guitarist. Not to say that I'm that good, but the bass thump just sort of pulled everything together.

So what's my point? If what you do makes a positive difference then it shouldn't matter how you get the job done. I feel that I made a positive difference with the bass. The one guy decided that he didn't like me before he ever gave me a chance. But when I helped "pull the ox out of the mud" he smiled and thanked me for helping. By the way, this guy was the lead singer of the group. The second guitar did not use a capo but did really louse up a song that they played in F and another in Bb. I don't think that he knew how to play a Bb chord. But because of folks talking unkindly about capo users he would not use one.

[Dick Hutchings]

I'm surprised that this is taken so seriously. Why would anyone care one way or the other. Sure, it's best to practice in all keys and I am actually pretty good at it. I still wouldn't hesitate to put one on for a tune that I haven't had a chance to practice. Especially if I was performing. Why play something that isn't your best? I'm sure the time will come where I won't ever feel the need but until then, are there really capo police? People that care that much about how I get it done? Really.

[roscoestring]

It has been my experience that bluegrassers are very picky. Now it may not be in other parts of the country/world. But from my neighborhood you have to be pretty good at playing your instrument to even sit in on practice or jam. I had walked up to a group of grassers one evening with a guitar and just started sturumming along very softly. There were about a dozen guys (and a girl) playing in the group. I was doing fine until I pulled out the ole capo. Then one of the guys informed me that I couldn't play in the group using a capo. I thought he was kidding until another guy asked if I had understood what the first guy said. I just walked away. I very, very seldom play bluegrass anyways.

I guess that there are some who do get very serious about the way you do things. Still others could care less as long as everyone is having a good time.

If ever I'm performing I do bring only my best tunes, but I'd say that only about 5% of my playing time is actual performing. The other 95% is jamming with other musicians which I consider practice or just having a good time.

[CES]

When I first started mandolin (from guitar) I thought capos for mandolins made perfect sense. But since "everyone" said that "no one" uses a capo on a mandolin I stopped considering it as an option.

Reading this string makes me think it might be a good idea at least to have one in your case. I read several strings over on some banjo forums that suggest the that choice of which capo can be a very debatable topic. So what kind of a capo do you (who use them) recommend for a mandolin?

Bernie,

I use the Kyser Mando/Banjo capo, which works well on my flat boarded mandos...I haven't tried it on my radiused one yet but don't think it would be a problem as the radius isn't pronounced and the frets a little beefier. They are relatively inexpensive, they're small, and, for those times when you really want to tick off those who feel they are an unnecessary crutch (I admit they're a crutch, but sometimes a necessary one for those of us lacking in theory knowledge or formal training) you can clip it on your headstock with your clip on tuner and wait for the spit to hit the shan, so to speak...

:grin:

BTW, I use the Kyser guitar capo on my acoustic guitars as long as I'm not going above the 5th fret (which happens sometimes with my daughter), but I use a Shubb on my banjo. Planet waves makes a hybrid of the Shubb and the Kyser that clips on but has an adjustable tension screw that allows you put just enough pressure, without sending everything sharp. It's a little more of a pain to use, but I use it almost exclusively on my Tele to keep from retuning...FWIW I'm very much an amateur hobbyist and NOT a pro...

[pickloser]

WOW, roscoestring. I thought capos were required to play bluegrass guitar. I haven't met any of these "police" groups. I have heard sighs, seen eyes rolling, and people will vote with their feet, but that's not exactly police action.

I suppose there are lots of police groups on the Cafe--the Hyperbole (aka the "you're exaggerating, and you know it") Police, the "if that's something I wouldn't do to my mando, then you shouldn't do it to yours" Police, the "Anti-Tab" police, the "Learn by Ear Only" Police, the "How Dare You Call the Mando a 'bluegrass' Instrument, Ignoring Other Genres" Police, the "You Only Like that Mando Because You Own It" Police, the "You Must Jam" Police, and the "That's Too Much to Spend on a _____" Police.

It seems that grouping those who care about something you don't care about and adding the word "Police," is a satisfyingly pithy little slur. It's not "Nazi" but still adds that fascist flavor; yet it's vague enough to defend easily as just playful teasing. I'm sure we'll continue to see it often enough. ~o)

[allenhopkins]

I find it very offensive to group people together and label them without the slightest regard to their actual statements. Perhaps you could validate the label by naming at least one of these police officers, and quoting him.

Don't want to get into "naming names"; others can speak for themselves. But here are quotes from previous threads:


If you are a mandolin player and you use a capo YOU ARE A LAZY MUSICIAN! LAZY! LAZY! LAZY!
If someone is playing in a weird key use 4 finger chords and slide up or down to match and play out of that position! A capo is a CRUTCH!!! A capo is OK on a guitar, banjo and dobro but it is ABSOLUTELY NOT allowed on a mandolin!!!! Even though it was a joke it is something to think about! Have you ever seen a capo on a fiddle????? HUH? Well have you!!! NO and there is a reason for that ... (August 16, 2009)

Put the capo away..........mandolins are not supposed to be played using one........Just learn the easy three finger chords. (November 22, 2009)

capo on a mandolin NO you might as well play a banjo (September 6, 2008)

Are you kidding me? He should be burnt at the stake for use a capo on such a sacred instrument as that mandolin!
Shame.
Shame.
Shame (March 16, 2008)

I'll say, charitably, that the last of these posts was probably in jest. Perhaps some others have been "overstated for effect." And honestly most of the "anti-capo" posts have been along the lines of, "I don't use one, but it's OK if others want to."

Nonetheless, there are a noticeable number of posts that seem to equate capo use with laziness, cheating, musical inadequacy, taking a disreputable short cut, and especially, total unsuitability for bluegrass. These posts are what generate, in my mind anyway, the sobriquet "capo police." I've also mentioned "Capo Taliban," but I won't say that any more; disagreements about use of a musical tool shouldn't be linked to more serious authoritarianism, IMHO.

So, there is a documented "capo police" mind-set, which has shown up here from time to time.

[AlanN]

I suppose there are lots of police groups on the Cafe--the Hyperbole (aka the "you're exaggerating, and you know it") Police, the "if that's something I wouldn't do to my mando, then you shouldn't do it to yours" Police, the "Anti-Tab" police, the "Learn by Ear Only" Police, the "How Dare You Call the Mando a 'bluegrass' Instrument, Ignoring Other Genres" Police, the "You Only Like that Mando Because You Own It" Police, the "You Must Jam" Police, and the "That's Too Much to Spend on a _____" Police.


And then there are the REAL Police, as in the banjo man I picked with last weekend who is a State Trooper out of Fayetteville. He was pretty darn good, too.

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie,

I use the Kyser Mando/Banjo capo, which works well on my flat boarded mandos...I haven't tried it on my radiused one yet but don't think it would be a problem as the radius isn't pronounced and the frets a little beefier. They are relatively inexpensive, they're small, and, for those times when you really want to tick off those who feel they are an unnecessary crutch (I admit they're a crutch, but sometimes a necessary one for those of us lacking in theory knowledge or formal training) you can clip it on your headstock with your clip on tuner and wait for the spit to hit the shan, so to speak.....:grin:

Thanks Chuck! I took a look at that Kyser mando model and ordered one (only %15) on Amazon. The similar configured Dunlop capo looked pretty decent too --about the same price. I don't actually think I'll ever use it with the mandolin -- maybe in an "emergency"? Then as well I have a tenor guitar and tenor banjo so -- who knows?

[Tim2723]

Using it on those instruments would be acceptable. Or so it would seem.

[CES]

Cool...hope it works out for you. I find they make the fretboard feel a little cramped at first, kind of like the nut does when I play at the first fret, but after a while I get used to it. I honestly don't use one very often on mando, but it's nice to have when you need it!

I'm staying out of the "Capo Police" argument, as I can see both sides regardless of the semantics involved, but will just say that I find it interesting how seriously some people take this stuff. I guess it's because I'm not a professional and my existence doesn't depend on my ability to entertain others with or teach others music, but I just love playing and really could care less whether someone uses one or not. I also think it's easy to miss intended humor in these forums/posts, as I discovered recently that I set off a bit of an uproar by making a joke about tattoos (or, actually about not getting one) a couple of years ago. I didn't see the thread again until someone linked it in a more recent thread but wish I had noticed it when it first happened. It was taken totally the wrong way, was meant totally in jest, and some members were very offended. If they'd heard me say it in person I don't think they would have been upset by it, b/c whether they thought it was funny or not they would have at least seen that I didn't really mean it...

Anyway, back to work.

[ralph johansson]

Don't want to get into "naming names"; others can speak for themselves. But here are quotes from previous threads:



...quotes ...


Nonetheless, there are a noticeable number of posts that seem to equate capo use with laziness, cheating, musical inadequacy, taking a disreputable short cut, and especially, total unsuitability for bluegrass. These posts are what generate, in my mind anyway, the sobriquet "capo police." I've also mentioned "Capo Taliban," but I won't say that any more; disagreements about use of a musical tool shouldn't be linked to more serious authoritarianism, IMHO.

So, there is a documented "capo police" mind-set, which has shown up here from time to time.

What disturbs me then, is the way people lumps these silly attitudes together with reasonable and friendly advice of the kind that any serious educator would offer on just about any instrument. Seeing some of the somments in this thread I note that quite a few people ignore the simple whether-how distinction that I touched upon in an earlier post. But that's the internet: you can correct misunderstandings any number of times and people will stick to them.

[Mandolin Mick]

Cool capo change! When I was playing guitar years ago, I used one a lot when playing
Simon & Garfunkel material because Paul Simon used one quite a bit.

Never used one on a mandolin ... yet ... ;)

[JeffD]

Well we have been through the wars. The capo wars, the pinky planting wars, the notation vs tab wars, the high end pick wars, the what is and is not bluegrass wars, .. ..

"He jests at scars that never felt a wound."


But I should add two further insights. Ok, three:

1 - Bluegrassers do not have a monopoly on intolerance. Every genre of music seems to have a small coterie of preservationists who are quick to frown upon unorthodox practices. Every genre.

2 - I do not think we, as a community, can be characterized as anti-instruction or anti-education or anti-expert. I think most folks here are intellgent enough to take the comments of content experts very seriously. And it has not been my impression that experts that contribute here feel unappreciated, by and large.

3 - Those (of us) who mindlessly hang on to our predjudices in the face of valuable yet freely given expert advice, we are the ones most hurt. What someone may chose to do is much less important than whether one makes it a choice out of informed alternatives.

[journeybear]

Somebody asked what capo to use. Dunno if they make mandolin capos. I had a standard Shubb that worked just fine - the one with a set screw. That way you can adjust it to the mandolin's thinner neck.

[ralph johansson]

Jim,

Im surprised to hear that you used the capo....not disappointed, but surprised. I, too have used one upon occasion for those hymns in what seemed to me to be difficult keys. I'm wondering though, if FFCP wouldn't have worked? Again, not questioning your choice, just curious.

That of course means you'd have to know the song in the original key of D without the use of open strings. Which is a good thing,
because I at least believe in minimizing their use. When I started out I was advised to not use them at all, and there are many cases where you should use the 7th fret even in open position, e.g., for pick economy. I also try to avoid leaving a string on an open note. I want notes that I can control. This is especially true in the key of A, and it has the advantage of demystifying the supposedly "odd" key of Ab -just shift your fingering down a half step.

The open strings in G, D, and A certainly present certain possibilities proper to that key. But so do the keys of F and Bb, and Eb.

My own reason for not using a capo on mandolin is mainly that the thought never ocurred to me when I was learning. Probably because, unlike the guitar, the courses don't outnumber your fingers (I rarely if ever use a capo on the guitar, either, but that's
in the nature of the songs I play). I can see that capo dependence creates a few problems; e.g., depriving you of standard modulations (up a half step or a major third, down a minor third). And it shortens the range on a soprano instrument.
Capoing consistently (and that is the issue) at the 3rd fret to play in F means you lose one of three standard positions and get open strings in possibly undesirable places.

I love to play and improvise on Beaumont Rag in the original key of F. If someone called the tune in C at a jam, would I put a capo
at the 7th fret? I´d refuse to play it, at least on the guitar.

[Patrick Hull]

I think you make some good points. I have generally had the attitude that I would not use one, because of comments on this forum. I'm certainly a better player for at least trying to learn without one. I'm not an expert by any means. I remember pulling one from my guitar case and using it at church on a song, which I believe was in F. I was just playing some background fills and the like and as I pulled it out, I thought to myself that I hoped there were no mandolin players in attendance as they would be critical. Actually it went quite well, I feel confident that it was better than if I had not used it, and lightening did not strike. Since then Ive used it a few other times in the same way. I would not do it at a jam. But your post points out something that I think some of us non-pros often miss...that we can just sit one out and nobody is really going to care or likely notice.

[smokyt81]

I use a shubb banjo capo on my mando rarely, but when I do it's for one of a couple of reasons:
1. I'm learning to crosspick and can only do it in a couple of keys: The capo helps me add a few more.
2. I like the sound of open strings.
3. I like to see the look on everybody else's face (especially the b*njo player) when I slap it on. Then when they ask, I tell them that if everybody else is using one, so can I(LOL).
Besides it's my mandolin. and I'll do what I want with it. At least until the _____ Police arrive.

[brianf]

A couple of points: Some people are limited by physical problems such as arthritis, or age. Some haven't reached a stage where they can play in all keys without the capo. I have seen the look of rejection on the face of some youngster, who, thinking that he would be welcome in a jam, was coldly told that he was not. I have also known an old timer, who welcomed one and all into the group, and over the years, that man lit the bluegrass spark in many pickers.

Accomplished players naturally like each song to sound the best, and to feel that their efforts should not be spoiled by amateur misteps, but we have to be careful that we avoid becoming bluegrass bigots.

[ralph johansson]

And then there are the REAL Police, as in the banjo man I picked with last weekend who is a State Trooper out of Fayetteville. He was pretty darn good, too.

Tobias Strömberg, the dobro player of G2, is a policeman. Google his name + dobro and you will find some nice pictures

[ralph johansson]

One final thought: I can certainly play St Anne in F, but I don't think it's a good range
for that tune. So my idea would be to do the song in F, hit an A7, go on with the mandolin part in D and modulate back to F. Assuming, of course, that the guitarist doesn't need a capo to play in F.

[pelone]

At our monthly sing along/jam we have two guys who practice and rehearse together who call out their songs of choice to be played in Bb. It accomplishes what they crave, a clearing of the deck while these guys then sing their jazzy tunes without having to share the spotlight. They are nicknamed "the dueling lounge lizards" but not to their faces. The frustration is that if they stayed in A or C, it would not be a voice stretch and everybody could then participate.

[ralph johansson]

At our monthly sing along/jam we have two guys who practice and rehearse together who call out their songs of choice to be played in Bb. It accomplishes what they crave, a clearing of the deck while these guys then sing their jazzy tunes without having to share the spotlight. They are nicknamed "the dueling lounge lizards" but not to their faces. The frustration is that if they stayed in A or C, it would not be a voice stretch and everybody could then participate.

"What they crave". Is that what they told you? Or what you want to believe? "Not to their faces" - indeed, why speak to people when you can bash them on a forum instead.

Your post is naive at best. The singer calls the key, it´s up to him to choose the key that is the most comfortable or expressive for him, and even a halfstep down, or a whole step up!, can make a big difference. If you don't know this you don't know much about singing.
So, instead of taking some time to learn one of the most common keys in popular music, and perhaps the most versatile on mandolin, you want a singer to sing in an inappropriate key so that "everybody can participate" - which of course is more important than musical considerations. In jams, that is.