Story behind Bill Monroe's mandolin being vandalzd

[Darren Kern]

Can anybody fill me in on what happened back then? I saw the pics on http://www.mandolinarchive.com and it's amazing to me that they were able to repair it.

Edit by site owner: editing this original post from 2004 so we can include a link to the specific Mandolin Archive record for Monroe's mandolin (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?55) since this turns up on searches a fair amount.

[JiminRussia]

Probably the best recounting of the story is in the book "Can'y You Hear Me Calling?". As to who did it, it remains an unsolved mystery to this day. The resoration was a labor of love and an incredible feat. If I remember correctly it took about six months of working on it every day to get it back into one piece. Maybe one of the Gibson Guys on the forum can give you better details.

[mandobob]

Correct me if I'm get this wrong; the mando was run thru with a fire poker which led police to believe a female had done it.
The idea is a man would have grabbed it by the neck and smashed it.

[Jim M.]

One of the Gibson Guys on the forum, Charlie Derrington, is The Man who put it back together. A feat that certainly should be in the Luthier's Hall of Fame.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Yes, Charlie certainly should be proud of that job. I was almost in tears taking those "after" pictures that are on MANDOLINARCHIVE.COM. Those were taken very shortly after the mandolin was returned to Monroe, and I could not believe the mandolin would ever maintain it's stability and sound essentially the same as it did. In some respects the mandolin sounded better. It to my ear had a little bit stiffer snap to it. Thanks Charlie.

As to who did it, it remains an unsolved mystery to this day.
I always assumed that Monroe know who did it or had a very good guess. Probably, the woman that he most recently cheated.

[f5loar]

And what a looker she was! You wouldn't have the balls to turn her in either if she had done that to your Loar!
I'm thankful Big Mon was not there at the time or the firepoker might have been meant for him and we would not have enjoyed another decade of new bluegrass music. And don't forget it wasn't just one Loar, it was 2 Loars that were trashed that day! Charlie repaired both of them.
Has anyone even seen the 2nd Loar lately?

[Nalapombu]

I saw him on the old show on The Nashville Network (the talk show one) where he was asked about it and he said that someone busted them with a fire poker while he was out. He did mention 2 mandos that were busted but I think his main Loar was the one that got the majority of the damage. It was supposed to have pieces that size of matchsticks in an envelope when he brought it to Charlei Derrington. I also heard that when Charlie finished it and gave it to him, he cried.

[jim simpson]

The reason Bill cried was the phone # of a girl could not be found in the mandolin. Evidently Bill would stuff the f-hole with phone #s of his favorites. When Charlie asked about it Bill replied "You'll find her name written there". This turned out to inspire the song of the same title. True story, nope - good story, maybe.

[Cletus]

Not that it really matters, but Bill's mandolin took Derrington about three months to repair. From the excellent book 'Can't You Hear Me Callin' the incident occurred on November 13, 1985 and Bill was presented the restored mandolin on February 25, 1986. No doubt, an amazing feat by Derrington.

[Peter Hackman]

As to who did it, it remains an unsolved mystery to this day.
I always assumed that Monroe know who did it or had a very good guess. Probably, the woman that he most recently cheated.
That would have been his wife, Della, and she had an alibi!

[GTison]

This made me re-read the article in the '86 frets magazine about the vandalism. It also had pics and some interviewing with Charlie Derrington, Gruhn and Siminof . Someone had some photos on ebay a while back of the mandolin all cracked up. I wondered where those photos came from as they were in Alabama. Some of these photos were in the '86 FRETS article. Very interesting to look at.
I also wondered if Charlie were doing the repairs today what he might do differently. I wondered if Glue selection might be different or any of the other things he had to do to get it back together. I have a video of Monroe soon after he got it back. It sounded pretty good in his hands to me.

[Moose]

Perhaps if the few Gibson-bashers would let-up.., Charlie D. would post a few words concerning the theme of this thread (as he has so graciously done previously). He WAS "da' man" ya' know!!. - http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[adgefan]

OK, stupid question time. How on earth was that mandolin repaired? Was it a case of gathering up all the shards and gluing them back into place?

However it was done, it's remarkable that anything was salvaged. I am very, very impressed.

[lindensensei]

What is really amazing is that Gibson could do that much work to an instrument in three months, but cant replace a simple truss rod in five... and counting...

[Keith Wallen]

What did Bill play while they were being fixed?

[Blind_Cowboy]

I had no idea that I was in such esteemed company as Mr. Derrington on this board. That is an amazing story that I am hearing for the first time today. Thank you folks for sharing it with me.

To Charlie,
You must certainly be proud of your amazing talent for instruments and repair. Your hands are blessed gifts.

[f5loar]

The lady in AL selling the bash photos was one of his live ins. She said he gave them to her as he didn't want to be reminded of the vandelism. While being repaired he used mostly his '78 F5L (who has that one?). And others loaned him theirs during the time including Charlie D.,Sam Bush,Ralph Rinzler and me to name a few.

[edawg]

theres a video on bill monroe, i got it at the library

well, they talk about that incident for a few minutes. they said vandals broke in and smashed his mandolin into a thousand pieces. all the pieces were sent to gibson where they put it together piece by piece.

they redid the finish, and that pissed bill monroe off, so he dug out the gibson name and took a piece of glass and ruined the finish.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IREE.01._PE10_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[earthsave]

Just to add to what I havent seen mentioned... There were two mandos and both were Loars. His main mando's tone bars were not damaged which I remember Mr. D say was the reason it kept it's tone. The other Loar was not so lucky and it never sounded the same. Parts from both mandos came to Mr. D in a paper sack and he had to sort them out based on grain and such...

You might search some of these keywords... cause I remember Mr. Derrington posting details about it early this year or maybe before that.

[earthsave]

theres a video on bill monroe, i got it at the library

well, they talk about that incident for a few minutes. #they said vandals broke in and smashed his mandolin into a thousand pieces. #all the pieces were sent to gibson where they put it together piece by piece. #

they redid the finish, and that pissed bill monroe off, so he dug out the gibson name and took a piece of glass and ruined the finish.


You sorta got two separate events mixed together and mixed up. #I believe he carved out the Gibson name, which was much later replaced after Gibson and Mr. Monroe made up for lack of a better phrase. He had sent it in for rework and they kept it for several months and didnt fix what he sent it in for... I am not remember the details clearly... it was either a neck reset or something like that.

[GVD]

Correct earthsave. I don't remember the exact year but the logo gouging took place many years before the vandal incident. In fact as Nalapombu mentioned he was so happy with the restoration it brought tears to his eyes.

GVD

[Keith Wallen]

The lady in AL selling the bash photos was one of his live ins. She said he gave them to her as he didn't want to be reminded of the vandelism. While being repaired he used mostly his '78 F5L (who has that one?). And others loaned him theirs during the time including Charlie D.,Sam Bush,Ralph Rinzler and me to name a few.
Thanks Tom!

[GTison]

I played the F5L at a friends house. When THE mandolin got busted he called for the F5L. They shipped it. ( I think on the Grayhound Bus) It was in that old case that Tut made and gave him. During the shipping it got busted too.
(I think that's the time line) An insurance claim was made on that one as a total loss. But I think someone in the band got it back and had it repaired. But later it was "lost" again.

[dang]

To bring up a year old topic...
Why in the picture from mandolinarchive.com where Bill Monroe’s mandolin is smashed is the Gibson logo intact on the headstock, and the scroll present on the headstock?
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_image.pl?139
It does not appear that the headstock has already been repaired because there appears to be damage to the binding on the left hand side of the headstock. #Yet there are other aspects that seem to match the "Frank Ray" picture of this mando
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_image.pl?2603
such as the small dark patch of finish near the f-hole. #Is this inconsistant? Is this really a picture of bills "other" mandolin (and therefore not 73987)? #I emailed this question to info@mandolinarchive.com some time ago and never received a response. #Any thoughts?
Dan

[Darryl Wolfe]

The photos on Mandolinarchive are from three distinct eras

Era One is prior to anything being done..no Gibson, no scroll (1972)

Era Two is after Gibson revamped the peghead

Era Three is post vandal repair

[Spruce]

Here's a pic I snapped last week through the glass at the Country Music Hall of Fame Museum...

[salleyann]

IN A CONVERSATION WITH CHARLIE D. YEARS AGO, HE SAID THE PIECES OF BOTH MANDOLINS WERE PICKED UP AND PUT TOGETHER IN THE SAME "TRASH BAG" WHEN THEY WERE FOUND. HE WAS HANDED THE BAG AND HAD TO SORT OUT WHAT WENT WITH WHICH MANDOLIN BEFORE HE COULD EVEN START REPAIRS. HE THEN MATCHED PIECES THAT WOULD FIT WITH EACH OTHER AND GLUED THEM TOGETHER, WRAPPED THEM WITH SEWING THREAD AND PUT THEM ON A SHELF TO DRY OVERNIGHT. THEN
HE REPEATED THE PROCESS OVER AND OVER WITH THE GLUED PIECES UNTIL COMPLETED. A MONUMENTAL TASK FOR ANYONE, IT STILL AMAZES
ME WHEN I THINK ABOUT IT!

[GTison]

I'll answer. Bill's mandolin was repaired by Gibson in a goodwill gesture BEFORE THE VANDALISM. They repaired the headstock and I believe a few other minor things. Not too long after that the vandalism was done. That's why you see the Gibson name on the headstock in the beat up pics. There are a few pics of the other mandolin but not many. It looks "better" than his main mando. The binding got broke in the fire poker vandalism as well.

[danb]

Spruce, did you get any more shots? I have very few of that oh-so-importane instrument for the archives

[Spruce]

Hi Dan....

Man, I need to get a good digital camera, 'cause the shots I got are about of the same quality as the one I posted....
I'll send you what I have....

I also ran into someone at IBMA who has some good shots of #73987 just before the first restoration...
Will send those on if and when they appear....

[Celtic Saguaro]

Bill and Gibson made up their differences before the vandalism. #They did some repair work, and with his permission restored the logo.

[wsm]

Here are a few shots I found on my hard drive. I think they are from the Frets Magazine article from Feb '86 on the repair of Bill's mandolin.

[wsm]

The backside...

[wsm]

Side view.

[jim simpson]

Whoever did the damage knew how to hurt a man by damaging his instrument!

Amazingly enough I was just having a discussion about this with Mrs. Moon. She just bought me a new F-5G for our 25th wedding anniversary. She mentioned that if she got pissed off the mandolin was safe but I'd better watch my sorry a$$.

[JEStanek]

Congrats and walk the straight and narrow, Diego.

Jamie

[jim simpson]

I guess there are no pictures of the inside of the top plate after repair? I wondered about the use of any cleats?

[Moose]

wsm: THOSE pics!! - enough to tear your heart - and soul OUT!! - Thanks for posting -The thunder and lightning of Bluegrass... Thanks to Charlie D. & staff - the surgery!! - Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[bjshear]

bump for history (today being the anniversary of the day it happened). Great read, I never knew this. Thanks for sharing.

[William Smith]

bump for history (today being the anniversary of the day it happened). Great read, I never knew this. Thanks for sharing.

A lot of history in that mandolin! Did ya all know that Big Bills tears can cure cancer,,its just too bad he NEVER cried!

[f5loar]

This was indeed a very sad day for the Father of Bluegrass. To come home to see this done to both of his Loars had to be the lowest point in his career. We should never forget.

[brunello97]

I've never been much of a Monroe fan, of the man or his music but I do love a good yarn. And this certainly counts as one. Certainly a movie if not a short story imbedded in there.

I am interested in the "a man who have grabbed it by the neck and smashed it" theory as opposed the "woman would pick up the fire poker and wail on it" theory though. That runs pretty deep. Putting aside the 'scorned woman as perp' motive for the moment, the modus operandi of the damage makes for pretty interesting speculative forensics.

Anybody care to wade in and flesh that out a bit?

Mick

[f5loar]

I would say it was best Monroe was not there that afternoon. If he had he would be able to sing tenor to his own tenor if you get my drift.

[Ivan Kelsall]

The the huge crack in the back & the damage to the binding is something i never knew about. In all i've read about Charlie Derrington's re-building of Bill's mandolins,it's been about the repair to the top only.Obviously his awsome skill was applied to the mandolin as a whole - even more incredible !,
Ivan

[Bernie Daniel]

I would say it was best Monroe was not there that afternoon. If he had he would be able to sing tenor to his own tenor if you get my drift.

That drift is easy enough to catch! :)

However, as remarkable as this entire story is, even considering all the WSM "loar" and the damage and then the repair, I think the most curious part is that fact that there are obviously numerous individuals who pretty much know who this woman was and all have covered for her all these years.

It was after all a pretty despicable act and so unless it was Bill's common-law wife (Ms. Bessie Lee Mauldin) that did it -- kind of unlikely since she passed away in early 1983 -- its hard to imagine all the "sympathies/empathies" for the person (woman or man) who would perform such a arguably "violent" act and cause such damage to two precious and historic mandolins.

[Tiderider]

Perhaps Bill did the damage himself in a moment of guilt or depression. Just a thought.

[AlanN]

I also have wondered about how he dealt with the alleged perp.

I took a Butch B. mando workshop in Nashville, 1994. On day 3, there standing in the doorway was none other than the man hisownself, flanked by his driver on one side and a (the?) blonde woman on the other. I remember the tenor of that Quality Inn conference room got a bit crusty for the time Bill was in there with her. Butch would not talk about it.

[JEStanek]

I hope the story will remain shrouded until all the principle players in it are dead. In many arenas, a persons career is ruined by romantic dalliances. I think, in many ways, after all his years, he got off easy and a fantastic legend has been born from it.

Jamie

[Bernie Daniel]

I also have wondered about how he dealt with the alleged perp.

I took a Butch B. mando workshop in Nashville, 1994. On day 3, there standing in the doorway was none other than the man hisownself, flanked by his driver on one side and a (the?) blonde woman on the other. I remember the tenor of that Quality Inn conference room got a bit crusty for the time Bill was in there with her. Butch would not talk about it.

Interesting story Allan -- taking that little bit of information I think one can make a pretty good guess as to who the fire poker lady might have been. Looks like she wasn't always a blonde however. :)

[GTison]

I doubt Deedee had anything to do with it. If that's who you are talking about. Idle talk.

[George R. Lane]

Does it truly matter who did the deed. The statute of limitations has long since run out. I say let it be a mystery for all times. no need to drag someones name thru the mud.

[JEStanek]

I would think there would be some who may want to buy whomever the young lady was a drink! There may be some who harbor hard feelings towards her.

Jamie

[MikeEdgerton]

Someone that told me he was a close friend of Monroe's questioned the "done by a scorned lover" story a few years ago. I asked him to post what he knew online and he didn't want to do that. Because he isn't here to defend his own theories and offer his own opinion I won't take that any farther. As for Bill and the blondes, there is a message with a picture here on the cafe that cracks me up every time I see it.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?32302-Bill-monroe-on-guitar

[Mandolin Mick]

Some of the guys here on the Cafe, one in particular, say they know who it is and aren't telling. She's still around. There's another thread on the femme fatale somewhere here on the forum, but I can't remember the name of it. It's much more detailed and more inside info is given.

[MikeEdgerton]

Here (https://www.google.com/search?q=scorned+lover+site%3Amandolincafe.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) are four threads regarding the dastardly deed. As for knowing who it is, I have no doubt there are members here that might know. Then again, they still haven't found Jimmy Hoffa.

[Big Joe]

Just because one might know does not mean they should tell. Mysteries are always more fun than reality :).

[Bernie Daniel]

I would think there would be some who may want to buy whomever the young lady was a drink! There may be some who harbor hard feelings towards her. Jamie

Unless she is immune from the effects of time I'll guess she is no longer so "young". But if she wants to tell the story I'll buy her a drink! :)

Bill Monroe was living on his farm with his second wife, Della Streeter and both left the farm that day just before 1 pm for lunch and errands in separate cars. When Mrs. Monroe got back she found the damaged mandolins on the floor. Some portraits of Bill and his brothers were also given the fire poker treatment that afternoon.

Apparently nothing was stolen from the farm house in the break in. So I guess it was pure revenge. The two mandolins were describe as being "stabbed" with the poker -- must not have been in their cases because the parts from both were mixed together on the floor.

Another thing is during the period before and after the mandolin massacre Monroe was experiencing a lot of petty theft and damage to his property in general including the theft of safe with a large amount of cash from his bus. Maybe some of that is related but nothing was ever proven.

It is a great mystery story to ponder every mid-November I guess.

[rico mando]

I am fairly certain Yoko Ono was the perpetrator

[Texas]

Unless she is immune from the effects of time I'll guess she is no longer so "young". But if she wants to tell the story I'll buy her a drink! :)

Bill Monroe was living on his farm with his second wife, Della Streeter and both left the farm that day just before 1 pm for lunch and errands in separate cars. When Mrs. Monroe got back she found the damaged mandolins on the floor. Some portraits of Bill and his brothers were also given the fire poker treatment that afternoon.

Apparently nothing was stolen from the farm house in the break in. So I guess it was pure revenge. The two mandolins were describe as being "stabbed" with the poker -- must not have been in their cases because the parts from both were mixed together on the floor.

Another thing is during the period before and after the mandolin massacre Monroe was experiencing a lot of petty theft and damage to his property in general including the theft of safe with a large amount of cash from his bus. Maybe some of that is related but nothing was ever proven.

It is a great mystery story to ponder every mid-November I guess.

Remember, a nutcase shot and killed John Lennon so crazy people exist that may do this for unknown reasons. Who knows, maybe if Bill had been home he too may have suffered at the hands of the fire-poker wielding perp. Maybe the real story is known by someone, but it is hard to believe if the 'true' story were know that someone has not told it. In this case it sounds like many people are saying they know when actually they do not.

[f5loar]

They know and ain't talking. Bill knew but didn't have the heart to press charges. I guess it's the gentleman in him, kinda like the time he gave that "bible beating" to Ms. Wanda Huff. And don't forget the redneck nut cases that shot Stringbean and his wife in cold blood murder.

[FL Dawg]

Details should finally surface now with the General Petraeus investigation.

[Big Joe]

Bill shared the story with a few people, but preferred it stay between them. I think that's a good place to leave it. It would serve no purpose at this date to open that can of worms. Just like Mr. Bill would want.

[brunello97]

Wait a minute. I thought the hop-heads who shot Beanstring were after a stash of cash he was to have hidden in the house. If the Monroe Job was robbery, they would have taken the mandolins. The projected stories about an act of vengeance/malice make too much sense to require rampant speculation.

Yeah, if they had email back then all this would have been easily sorted out. ;)

Mick

[cobraman428]

I think we need Geraldo Rivera to get to the bottom of this story !!!

[JEStanek]

The mandolin case will be empty!

[MikeEdgerton]

It was Jill Kelly. It had to come out sooner or later.

[Ivan Kelsall]

However carried out the vandalism,it was a dreadful thing to have done. Personally,i prefer not to know who did it. That way i don't harbour any hard feelings towards 'any' individual,
Ivan

[JEStanek]

Jill Kelley is a brunette, I think she's safe as a suspect. She did mention getting threating e-mails from a blond....

[f5loar]

The problem is Jill Kelly was not even born when this act of terror took place in the Monroe home. And besides it was a blonde that did it.

[MikeEdgerton]

There goes that conspiracy theory. I hate it when that happens.

[mando-tech]

Hey 'dang' you're bringing in more confusion of the time-line, Bill's famous Loar had the head stock restored a decade or more before the smashing incident,...to answer part A of your post.

[mando-tech]

Hey dang, in reply to part A of your post: Bill's famous Loar had the headstock restored a decade or more before the smashing incident. This is why it didn't appear gouged and broken-off in the photos of the Derrington restoration.

[f5loar]

Well not quite a decade or more. The facts are in Aug. 1980 Gibson luthiers Richard Doan and Maude Moore replaced/repaired the broken headstock with new tuners, restoring it to it's original condition with a new overlay and pearl inlays. In early October, 1980 Monroe got it back and was one happy camper with the Gibson Co. for the no charge repairs done. Then almost 5 years later both of his Loars were vandelised and damaged beyond recognition in his home on Nov. 13, 1985. The repairs were done and returned to Monroe on Feb. 25, 1986. The 2nd Loar suffered more damage and took another 6 months or so repair. Can't change history with facts.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Well not quite a decade or more. The facts are in Aug. 1980 Gibson luthiers Richard Doan and Maude Moore replaced/repaired the broken headstock with new tuners, restoring it to it's original condition with a new overlay and pearl inlays. In early October, 1980 Monroe got it back and was one happy camper with the Gibson Co. for the no charge repairs done. Then almost 5 years later both of his Loars were vandelised and damaged beyond recognition in his home on Nov. 13, 1985. The repairs were done and returned to Monroe on Feb. 25, 1986. The 2nd Loar suffered more damage and took another 6 months or so repair. Can't change history with facts.
One could argue that the first face lift was not close enough to the original. But why did Charlie Derrington replace that head stock veneer once again, and in this case with an even more odd looking one (on a July 9th)?:confused:

[Alex Orr]

What did Bill play while they were being fixed?
Well, assuming the guy I was talking to last night was on the level (and I think he was) then this is the mandolin he played while his Loar was being fixed :)

108393

Again, assuming it was true, it's pretty cool that the first Master Model I've played was once owned and played by Bill Monroe!

[Willie Poole]

Alex...I have heard stories that Gibson lent Bill a F-5L (fern) mandolin while his Loar was being repaired, I`m sure someone on this forum knows the true facts and will chime in and let us know for sure...Of course Gibson calls a lot of their mandolins "Master Models"

Willie

[Alex Orr]

Alex...I have heard stories that Gibson lent Bill a F-5L (fern) mandolin while his Loar was being repaired, I`m sure someone on this forum knows the true facts and will chime in and let us know for sure...Of course Gibson calls a lot of their mandolins "Master Models"

Willie
Good point. I forgot that many, many Gibson labels say, "Master Model", even on A models. The date on the label was the right time period however, and the guy's story seemed accurate.

[f5loar]

One can argue that Monroe played several F5s during that short 3 month period during the vandal repairs. Gibson did give Monroe a 1978 F5L as a gift before the first repairs were done in 1980. He did not use that mandolin as much as his July 9th Loar and the Feb. Loar until the 1985 repairs in which both Loars were out of service. Not sure why he did not go back and break out the old late 60's Randy Wood No. 2 during this time, other than stories he had "loaned" it out to a friend. Monroe was not fond of the '78 F5L due to the darn pickguard on it which he could not take it off since Gibson put it on there. It's an old person's thing that you don't alter gifts given to you as they might want it back and it should be in the same condition as received. So others came forth during this time and loaned him their F5s. I know of Sam Bush, Charlie Derrington, Ralph Rinzler and me as being 4 that loaned Bill an F5 during this time. I'm sure there were others.

[MikeEdgerton]

Yeah, I remember hearing that Charlie had loaned him his mandolin to play. I know that I would have lent him mine to play and made sure I had pictures and a letter of authenticity when he was done with it. :)

[jim simpson]

Was the F5L the one that Bill would break out for alternate tuning tunes like Get Up John?

[Big Joe]

Charlie had a 25 unsigned Loar at the time that he lent mr. Monroe. Bill had other instruments available, but he had Charlie's which is a very good instrument.

[f5loar]

Was the F5L the one that Bill would break out for alternate tuning tunes like Get Up John?
Yes he did use this one and many others for the cross tunning.

[Gary Hedrick]

At a show in 1983 or 1984 at Bean Blossom I had a chance to play the second Loar. Not much to play on it since it was Get Up John tuned.

[AlanN]

Gary, how was Monroe's ear? Could he get the GUJ tuning without using a tuner?

[lorrainehornig]

I'm not really a fan of Bill Monroe, but appreciate his contribution to the music industry. As I looked at the photos posted above, I thought, "his poor heart must have been about as broken as that poor mandolin". Even though it was beautifully repaired, I'll wager that Bill Monroe never got over that heartbreak. Let's face it, we form very close emotional attachments to our mandolins!

[auteq]

Yes he did use this one and many others for the cross tunning.

Two things to add as the photographer of Alex and the mandolin. The owner did mention it was cross tuned when it was played. He also has photographs of Mr. Monroe signing it (or a very similar F5L) at the said sale. Alex's right arm is covering a Monroe signature. I realize this does prove the story at all but it was cool to see.

[George R. Lane]

My late friend Walt Timmerman owned the 78 F5L that Gibson gave him. I played it on a few occasions and there was no signature anywhere on it. I am unaware of its location since he passed away. I assume his wife still has it.

[f5loar]

Sounds like we are talking about 2 different F5Ls here. Monroe only had one the June, 1978 F5L. Last person I thought had it was James Monroe. When I saw James at Myrtle Beach 10 or so years ago the mandolin player in his band was playing it. There was no signature on it, only the one inside it on the signature label by Gibson President.

[Alex Orr]

Sooo, maybe it was just (at best) one of several mandolins played by Monroe during this period?

I like the idea that it was the ONLY mandolin he used during this period better. Will anyone be willing to say anything (no matter how historically inaccurate) to support the narrative I would like to believe here ;)

[George R. Lane]

f5,
Here is the story from Walt that he posted a couple of years ago.

I am the current owner of the 1978 F5L that was given to Bill Monroe by the Gibson Company as a peace offering. Roger Siminoff asked if would chime in with what information I have on the instrument. Here is all that I know. If anyone else has any information about this mandolin, I would love to hear from them.

After the NAMM show, Roger encouraged Gibson to present a new F5L mandolin to Mr. Monroe as a gift to help mend fences with the ‘Father of Bluegrass.’ Sometime later, the Gibson Company gave Monroe one of the F5L prototypes. This mandolin was signed by Gibson luthier Aaron Cowles on June 20, 1978, and bears the serial number, 71568197. According to Roger, this mandolin was finished on June 5th. “And, if that's the case, yours had to be one of the first three (and I think I remember Aaron completing his first).” On the first half-dozen instruments, Roger tap tuned the mandolin before the body was closed, so this one would have been tuned personally by Roger.

When I first acquired the mandolin, all I knew is that it had been owned and used by Monroe. As a Big Mon disciple, that was good enough for me. But one day I got a call from a friend of mine, Tom McKinney, of Asheville, North Carolina, and he said, “There’s a publicity photo of Bill Monroe holding your mandolin.” I confess I was skeptical, but Tom was right. After carefully comparing the headstocks of the two mandolins, specifically the inlays, I realized it was the very same mandolin. I didn’t know of any publicity photos of Monroe with anything other than his 1923 Loar, especially late in his career. That started me on a little research project to find out what I could about the instrument. I don’t know if anyone else feels the same way I do about this, but most of us go through dozens of vintage instruments in our lives and don’t know anything about the provenance or history of these things, and that’s a shame. So, I wanted to find out all I could.

Last year, the Mandolin Café posted a little audio clip of Monroe on stage where he talks about mending fences with the Gibson Company. Monroe mentions acquiring the 1923 Gibson mandolin in a barber shop, the subsequent feud with Gibson, and how in 1978 Gibson convinced Monroe to have the Loar-signed instrument worked on back in Kalamazoo, Michigan. At the end, Monroe says, “And in the deal, they give me that new mandolin there in a brand new case.” This F5-L mandolin is what he refers to as “that new mandolin there.”

Monroe played the 1978 F5L mandolin quite often when his number one mandolin was unavailable, such as in the 1980 White House concert for President Jimmy Carter. In December 1981, I saw Monroe using the F5L to play “My Last Days on Earth” at an Orlando concert. So for at least some of the time, Monroe had the F5L in that alternate mandolin tuning.

Monroe used the F5L as his primary instrument after the infamous November 1985 “vandal” incident, in which an intruder smashed both of Monroe’s Loar-signed mandolins. Curtis McPeake verified that Monroe used the F5L for a year or more until his 1923 Gibson was repaired by Charlie Derrington. As evidence, Monroe was filmed using the F5L at a 1986 Colorado concert in the Scott Wright documentary titled, “High, Blue, and Lonesome.”

So how did I come to acquire the mandolin? Bill Monroe was good friends with a Nashville-area police officer, Bill Hawkins. Mr. Hawkins was not a professional musician, but played locally as an avocation. Hawkins did a lot of favors for Monroe, such as helping to feed livestock when the Blue Grass Boys were on the road. I understand Officer Hawkins was one of those called to the scene after the vandal incident, and helped gather mandolin pieces up into a paper bag. Sometime in the late 1980s or early ‘90s, Bill Monroe saw Mr. Hawkins in town and called him over to his vehicle. Monroe said, “I have something here I want to give you.” It was the 1978 F5L mandolin. Bill Hawkins treasured the F5L mandolin and played it until his passing. In the summer of 2005, the mandolin was brought to McPeake’s Unique Instruments, in Mount Joliet, Tennessee, and made available for sale; I purchased the mandolin from Curtis.

Sometime during its life, the mandolin lost its original pickguard, tailpiece, and bridge. I repaired a crumbling bone point on the lower bout. Other than that, the mandolin is intact and includes the original case. I recently took the F5L mandolin to Bruce Weber in Logan, Montana, for a review. After looking the instrument over for quite some time, studying the smallest details, Mr. Weber said he was impressed with the workmanship.

I have played a few Loar-signed Gibson mandolins over the years, and I think the power and tone of this F5L mandolin is comparable. As Big Mon, himself, would have said, “it’s a wonderful instrument.” I’m glad the behind-the-scenes story of the F5L’s development has been revealed. Roger and everyone involved in making those early Gibson F5L mandolins should be proud of what they did.

[Fretbear]

Charlie D. not only repaired the smashed Loar but also lent WSM his own mint Loar to use. Bill returned it with a coffee cup sized hole worn through the finish on the back that his spiky Bluegrass boys belt buckle had ground out. Sorry Charlie! In fact he never would apologize for doing something like that, it wasn't in his nature.

[f5loar]

Did Walt play with the James Monroe band right after he got it?

[George R. Lane]

No he lived in Helena, Mt. and performed throughout the state. As far as I know he never performed with James.

[f5loar]

Then maybe it was Bill Hawkins I last saw the F5L Monroe owned. Interesting story above. So it appears now the '78 F5L is last known to be in the widow of Bill Hawkins possession. Then who is the guy holding another F5L in the photo above from a post by Alex Orr?

[George R. Lane]

F5,
No, the widow of Walt Timmerman I believe still has the 78 F5L. I will try and contact her to find it's actual whereabouts.

[f5loar]

my bad, got the widows mixed up! Yes do check. It just might be for sale again.

[GTison]

F5loar are you sure he only had one F5L at the time? I seem to remember playing an F5L of Monroe's at a friend of Monroe's house about that time. I was told when the vandals broke his he called for it to be shipped. It was shipped back in the old case w/ the design on the side, the mandolin's neck was broken. So Monroe had to use something else. Also, I thought the Museum in bean Blossom had an F5L in it. That old case was there when I visited years ago. (I'm fuzzy about the F5L being at the museum.)

[f5loar]

The old case that Tut Taylor did for Monroe first is in BB but no mandolin in it. For a long time he carried the 2nd Loar in that older case after he got the new one from the Bluegrass boys. It's possible they did lend him another F5L while working on his '78 F5L but I can't imagine he had one in which he would sign the top. That sounds like one he just picked on backstage and then signed it for someone. He did that often. I've seen him take out his pocketknife and carve his initials in mandolins. Saw him do it myself twice. He left his mark on mine when I removed the pickguard and put a nice un' right under the pickguard area. It's the only big scratch on my Loar but I'm not complaining.

[garyedelman]

Don't mean to drag up this old thread, but I caught the Dry Branch Fire Squad at the
Palatka Bluegrass Festival yesterday. In introducing the band members, Ron Thomason
told a pretty abbreviated story about their mandolin player, Brian Aldridge, owning or
having owned the Gibson F5L that Monroe was given while his 2 Loars were being
rebuilt. Aldridge did, and might still have a vintage stringed instrument shop in Ohio.
I have no idea what mandolin he and / or Thomason played during their 2 sets. I was
pretty far from the stage.

[mrmando]

Isn't Brian an active Cafe member?

Ron owns a Loar and I thought Brian had one too.

[Bernie Daniel]

Isn't Brian an active Cafe member?

Ron owns a Loar and I thought Brian had one too.

Yes Brian does indeed! It is a 1924 and because of his generosity I, and several others, were lucky enough to get to touch and play it a bit one afternoon. As to be expected it is a wonder instrument. It was the first Loar-signed mandolin I had every had my hands on and it was an impressive thing to see that signature in "real life".

[Mike Bunting]

Ron isn't playing mandolin anymore?

[evanreilly]

Last time I knew, Brian A. had an April 25, 1923 that belonged to a fellow from Boston. Ron also has a LL signed F-5.

[f5loar]

Neither of them boys is Loar poor.......... They've had them a long time back when they only cost a single wide trailer and not a 2 story house. I've not heard about Brian having Monroe's 1978 F5L but anything is possible as these vintage Gibsons do seem to change hands quite often. Maybe he will take time off from picking so much to tell us all about it.

[William Smith]

Brian is a real good guy and I've wheeled and delt with him for a long time now. Like f5loar said he is not Loar poor and other sweeties that he has/had, not my business to say what he has. Check out his you tube videos under his name I believe and there is some great videos Brian took at Randy Woods shop of Herchal Sizemore and my Uncle Dick Smith picking his unsigned 24 that was Derringtons. Great sounding mandolin. also If its still on there, there is a video of Brian picking the unsigned 24 "I think" and then picking the same thing on the 34 F-7 I bought from him a while back. Pretty good sounding F-7! If I was computer smart I'd post the videos here.

[garyedelman]

Ron played plenty of mandolin at the Palatka Festival. Again, I have no
idea what specific mandolin he played. And Brian played multiple instruments
as well. As is Thomason's tradition, he started out telling the story about
Monroe's mandolins being vandalized and added his own take on who and why.
And then added that Brian owned (sounded past tense to me) the replacement
Gibson for a period of time. He did not mention Brian or himself owning Loars.
Just to make sure, they sounded great, no matter what instruments they were
playing, and Thomason was in fine story-telling form.

[Willie Poole]

Brian stopped by my house one day about 10 years ago with his stable of mandolins, he wheels and deals quite a bit, I was under the impression that he also owned a Loar that belonged to Mr. Derrington, I heard it at the Gettysburg festival shortly after he bought it, he asked me what I thought of it and I told him, he hasn`t spoken to me since because I only heard it being played through the sound system and couldn`t give him a true report but it didn`t sound near as good as his first one which he let me play all afternoon while he strummed on his guitar...I tried to wear out the frets and strings that day, it is one of the best Loars that I have had my hands on, which is quite a few...He also had a `25 Fern, a `37 F-7 converted to an F-5, a Gilchrist (which in my opinion was the best sounding of all of them), he played my `81 Loar copy and said he really liked it but Brian being a real gentleman wouldn`t have said anything bad about it even if he didn`t like it, he`s not like me, I tell it like I hear it...At least I used to...

Great post and some good insight here....

Willie

[eadg145]

I saw Dry Branch Fire Squad in Mountain View just over a week ago. Ron was definitely playing a '23 Loar. I talked with him about it. And oh boy, what a sound that mandolin has!!! I've heard a few Loars (never played one), but Ron's is a real singer! I'd love to know more about that one.
Ron also told the story during introductions, and told us that Brian was playing a mandolin that had been lent to Bill Monroe after the mandolin attack (I have some issue with the term "vandalized", as I think it's a contrivance in this particular case.) My wife told me she preferred Brian's mandolin. However, I was busy scraping my jaw off the floor every time I heard Ron's Loar. Holy Cow!

[DataNick]

Thread Bump:

Kind of related; the 1978 F5L that Gibson gave to Bill Monroe is up for sale at Greg Boyd's, NFI
Bill Monroe's F5L (http://gregboyd.com/instrument_detail.html?instrument_key=1943)

[f5loar]

Thread Bump:

Kind of related; the 1978 F5L that Gibson gave to Bill Monroe is up for sale at Greg Boyd's, NFI
Bill Monroe's F5L (http://gregboyd.com/instrument_detail.html?instrument_key=1943)
Interesting indeed. How about when an interested serious buyer calls for the price, post that price here. Monroe did indeed play this one but it was given to him shortly after it was made in 1978 to butter him up for future repairs and his namesake coming to Gibson after the fall out in 1951. So it was not presented to him during the poker damage to the 2 Loars in 1986. He already owned it.

[MikeEdgerton]

Interesting indeed. How about when an interested serious buyer calls for the price, post that price here. Monroe did indeed play this one but it was given to him shortly after it was made in 1978 to butter him up for future repairs and his namesake coming to Gibson after the fall out in 1951. So it was not presented to him during the poker damage to the 2 Loars in 1986. He already owned it.

Yup, they've got that story wrong.

[Big Joe]

Mr. Bill played Charlie's unsigned Loar for much of the time his was in for repair. Charlie was always proud that he could do that for his hero.

[sgarrity]

So how much and what does it sound like???

[DataNick]

So how much and what does it sound like???

Shaun,

Don't know what they're asking, but this is what it sounded like in 1980


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22QlsLdYF48

[sgarrity]

Good find Nick! If I buy it will I be able to play like that??? :grin: :mandosmiley:

And no, I'm in no danger of buying this thing. With the $75,000 Monroe fingerboard out there I can only imagine what they're asking for this mandolin.....

[Timbofood]

I think that may have been the prototype built by Aaron Cowles but, I make many mistakes. Was it indeed one of the "new" production batch?

[DataNick]

Tim,

Here's the story behind it...I lifted it from the comments that are after the Siminoff article on the F-5L Mandolion: A Turning Point... (http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/publish/mandolins_001217.shtml)

Bill Junior
May 22, 2010 01:29 PM
"I am the current owner of the 1978 F5L that was given to Bill Monroe by the Gibson Company as a peace offering. Roger Siminoff asked if would chime in with what information I have on the instrument. Here is all that I know. If anyone else has any information about this mandolin, I would love to hear from them.

After the NAMM show, Roger encouraged Gibson to present a new F5L mandolin to Mr. Monroe as a gift to help mend fences with the 'Father of Bluegrass.' Sometime later, the Gibson Company gave Monroe one of the F5L prototypes. This mandolin was signed by Gibson luthier Aaron Cowles on June 20, 1978, and bears the serial number, 71568197. According to Roger, this mandolin was finished on June 5th. "And, if that's the case, yours had to be one of the first three (and I think I remember Aaron completing his first)." On the first half-dozen instruments, Roger tap tuned the mandolin before the body was closed, so this one would have been tuned personally by Roger.

When I first acquired the mandolin, all I knew is that it had been owned and used by Monroe. As a Big Mon disciple, that was good enough for me. But one day I got a call from a friend of mine, Tom McKinney, of Asheville, North Carolina, and he said, "There's a publicity photo of Bill Monroe holding your mandolin." I confess I was skeptical, but Tom was right. After carefully comparing the headstocks of the two mandolins, specifically the inlays, I realized it was the very same mandolin. I didn't know of any publicity photos of Monroe with anything other than his 1923 Loar-especially late in his career. That started me on a little research project to find out what I could about the instrument. I don't know if anyone else feels the same way I do about this, but most of us go through dozens of vintage instruments in our lives and don't know anything about the provenance or history of these things, and that's a shame. So, I wanted to find out all I could.

Last year, the Mandolin Café posted a little audio clip of Monroe on stage where he talks about mending fences with the Gibson Company. Monroe mentions acquiring the 1923 Gibson mandolin in a barber shop, the subsequent feud with Gibson, and how in 1978 Gibson convinced Monroe to have the Loar-signed instrument worked on back in Kalamazoo, Michigan. At the end, Monroe says, "And in the deal, they give me that new mandolin there in a brand new case." This F5-L mandolin is what he refers to as "that new mandolin there."

Monroe played the 1978 F5L mandolin quite often when his number one mandolin was unavailable, such as in the 1980 White House concert for President Jimmy Carter. In December 1981, I saw Monroe using the F5L to play "My Last Days on Earth" at an Orlando concert. So for at least some of the time, Monroe had the F5L in that alternate mandolin tuning.

Monroe used the F5L as his primary instrument after the infamous November 1985 "vandal" incident, in which an intruder smashed both of Monroe's Loar-signed mandolins. Curtis McPeake verified that Monroe used the F5L for a year or more until his 1923 Gibson was repaired by Charlie Derrington. As evidence, Monroe was filmed using the F5L at a 1986 Colorado concert in the Scott Wright documentary titled, "High, Blue, and Lonesome."

So how did I come to acquire the mandolin? Bill Monroe was good friends with a Nashville-area police officer, Bill Hawkins. Mr. Hawkins was not a professional musician, but played locally as an avocation. Hawkins did a lot of favors for Monroe, such as helping to feed livestock when the Blue Grass Boys were on the road. I understand Officer Hawkins was one of those called to the scene after the vandal incident, and helped gather mandolin pieces up into a paper bag. Sometime in the late 1980s or early '90s, Bill Monroe saw Mr. Hawkins in town and called him over to his vehicle. Monroe said, "I have something here I want to give you." It was the 1978 F5L mandolin. Bill Hawkins treasured the F5L mandolin and played it until his passing. In the summer of 2005, the mandolin was brought to McPeake's Unique Instruments, in Mount Joliet, Tennessee, and made available for sale; I purchased the mandolin from Curtis.

Sometime during its life, the mandolin lost its original pickguard, tailpiece, and bridge. I repaired a crumbling bone point on the lower bout. Other than that, the mandolin is intact and includes the original case. I recently took the F5L mandolin to Bruce Weber in Logan, Montana, for a review. After looking the instrument over for quite some time, studying the smallest details, Mr. Weber said he was impressed with the workmanship.

I have played a few Loar-signed Gibson mandolins over the years, and I think the power and tone of this F5L mandolin is comparable. As Big Mon, himself, would have said, "it's a wonderful instrument." I'm glad the behind-the-scenes story of the F5L's development has been revealed. Roger and everyone involved in making those early Gibson F5L mandolins should be proud of what they did."

[George R. Lane]

Check my post #92 on the 3rd page. It has all the info you need from my good friend, Walt Timmerman (RIP), who was the last owner.
I have played this f5L and it is a fine instrument. By the way Greg Boyd was a friend of Walt and he knows the background on it.

[George R. Lane]

Disregard my post. DataNick beat me to it.

[f5loar]

That story above is correct. I can tell the story of why the pickguard was on there when Monroe had it, and how it got removed but the story is too long to post here. So if the current owner/seller wants to PM me I can give that information, as the other 2 people who knew the story are now dead.

[Glassweb]

sounds like a very good mandolin to me... the "player" notwithstanding...

[Scott Tichenor]

I'd like to note today is the 30th anniversary of the famed incident with the fireplace poker!

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73987_smashed.jpg

[Tobin]

The "other" day which will live in infamy...

[Timbofood]

The other day to celebrate is much more pleasant, the day the restoration was completed!

[Randy Linam]

I had the honor of meeting Charlie and spending some time with him while Gibson replaced the tuners on my mandolin. I talked with him about the incident and asked him; how did you do that? He just gave me a little smile and replied; "very carefully." Sam Bush was there also. Both of them autographed my mandolin case. The autographs have faded and I have owned several mandolins since that one, but that case ain't going no where!

[Bernie Daniel]

It has been a while since I saw that picture.

The thought occurs to me looking at that image that the story the mandolin was resurrected from by gluing back 'hundreds of pieces" might be a bit of an over statement or an embellishment? Maybe it was more like 5 to 10 big pieces and twice that number of smaller splinters and chips?

This comment in no way is meant to lessen the most impressive feat that Charlie Derrington accomplished in that famous repair. Sadly, he is gone and cannot answer my question.

But maybe someone can?

[DataNick]

Bernie,

Either in an interview or in the documentary "Bill Monroe The Fater of Bluegrass", Charlie Derrington as I recall said that mandolin was in about 200 pieces or so...others here probably have the definitive answer...and yes, he glued fragments of wood together using a microscope, probably matching/checking the grain?

You could also ask James William Monroe on Facebook; Bill Monroe's grandson. He said that he was the one who suggested gathering up all the wooden fragments hoping for a restoration that could be displayed maybe. He said he's the one who picked up the fragments, vacuumed, bagged all of it.

[Fretbear]

Mr. Bill played Charlie's unsigned Loar for much of the time his was in for repair. Charlie was always proud that he could do that for his hero.

Mr. Bill also returned it to him with a coffee mug sized chunk of finish ground off the back of it from his spiky Bluegrass Boys belt buckle! Thanks buddy!

[Fretbear]

It has been a while since I saw that picture.

The thought occurs to me looking at that image that the story the mandolin was resurrected from by gluing back 'hundreds of pieces" might be a bit of an over statement or an embellishment? Maybe it was more like 5 to 10 big pieces and twice that number of smaller splinters and chips?

This comment in no way is meant to lessen the most impressive feat that Charlie Derrington accomplished in that famous repair. Sadly, he is gone and cannot answer my question.

But maybe someone can?

Bernie, there were splinters and pieces from two Loars, all mixed up together in a paper sack which first of all had to be painstakingly separated one from the other. The second Loar had one of it's tone bars snapped and reportedly did not heal up as well as #73987 did.

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie, there were splinters and pieces from two Loars, all mixed up together in a paper sack which first of all had to be painstakingly separated one from the other. The second Loar had one of it's tone bars snapped and reportedly did not heal up as well as #73987 did.

Yes I wondered if I should have mentioned that intermingling of the parts - -obviously added complexity to the overall task! Again it is not my intention to diminish in any way Charlie's epic work here -- just picking at the details of this infamous day in mandolin history.

But you are really hinting at what was my original thought exactly, i.e., most of the really difficult work probably came with the other Loar because it was actually more shattered -- as in rendered to small pieces and splinters? True or false?

I've heard the tone bar explanation before. But there really any reason (a priori) to think that the tone bar is any more important than the top board? (others on that?). So if that bar could be properly glued up the mandolin should be as good one with a properly glued top?

Did Charlie end up taking the back of either mandolin in his repair work? Anyone know that?

[Ivan Kelsall]

Friday the 13th !.That's just taken on a new importance,:(
Hi Bernie - It would seem that Charlie Derrington did indeed remove the back from Bill's main mandolin ,
Ivan~:>
140889

[Jim Yates]

Bill and Gibson had made up before the vandalism incident and Gibson had done some more repair work on the mandolin including restoring the headstock to it's former glory. If I recall correctly, I believe they also replaced the piece of the headstock that had broken off.

[Charles Cornett]

I have long been fascinated by this story, and by the various versions of it. I spent the last decade or so believing that the headstock carving was due to a dissatisfaction with the first attempt to repair the vandalism damage. I think I stand corrected. In the end, Charlie Derrington emerges as a hero regardless of the details. I have a quick, personal Charlie story to share, and joined the forum to do so.

I'm not sure of the year, but I believe it was the year before Charlie passed. We had a festival promoter cancel, and I had to put together a bluegrass festival in a hurry at our park in Florida. Among my calls was to my friend Aubrey Haynie, and he put together a 'super group' of musicians for one of the slots. Among them was Charlie Deerington. One evening after the show I found myself talking to Charlie at a very large jam session (with the supergroup in the middle of it). He had a mandolin around his neck as we spoke. An older gentlemen approached (somewhat rudely I felt) and asked "Is that a Loar?". Charlie acknowledged "Yes" and turned back to continue what he was saying. The gent interrupted again seconds later and asked "Can I play it?". Charlie kept on talking, took the instrument off his neck and handed it to him, almost like a Dad handing a 5 dollar bill to a kid to get them to go away.

Now it was my turn to interrupt. I said "Charlie. Didn't you just hand that total stranger a $100,000 bill?" Charlie said, "Don't worry. I can fix it!" He was an American classic.

[MikeEdgerton]

Charlie said, "Don't worry. I can fix it!"

Great Charlie Derrington story. Charlie was a long time contributing member to the cafe.


I spent the last decade or so believing that the headstock carving was due to a dissatisfaction with the first attempt to repair the vandalism damage. I think I stand corrected.

Yup, two different instances.

[jim simpson]

I would still love to see an "after" photo of the inside of the repaired top (before the back was re-installed). I don't suppose one has ever been published?

[MikeEdgerton]

I would still love to see an "after" photo of the inside of the repaired top (before the back was re-installed). I don't suppose one has ever been published?

I've never seen one. I'd love to see that too. I'd be surprised if it exists.

[Bluegrasssubvet]

What happened to Bill Monroe's second mandolin?? Gary

[rcc56]

People have been asking that question since Bill passed on.