Just bought a Bose

[Tim2723]

Just pushed the button on a Bose L-1 compact. Hope to use it for the smaller jobs we do. I'll let you know what I think of it in a while.

[rico mando]

lookin forward to the review

[Michael Eck]

We love ours. We use it with a single condenser mic in our duo and it's just great.

[woodwizard]

We just got to try out our new Bose L1 model 2 Tower w/tone match engine and one single bass at a gig last Sat.. We used one KSM44 Shure mic and another Sure mic a little higher for vocals. I gotta tell you, we love everything about it. In my OT band we have 2 fiddles, mandolin, clawhammer banjer, guitar & upright bass. It worked perfectly for us and was so easy to carry in and setup. Very light for a PA system but does the job very well. :)

[Tim2723]

We love ours. We use it with a single condenser mic in our duo and it's just great.

Micheal, are you using the Compact model? I'm going to patch in a Soundcraft six channel mixer for two vocal mics and two instruments with pickups. We've recently contracted two new weekly venues that seat about 50-75 people in relatively quiet restaurant conditions. I think this will do well for us, since it's pretty tight quarters and there's too little room for even our 'small' traditional PA. Wish us luck.

P.S. Thanks to all those here who have talked about the Bose systems, and especially to Jim_n_Virginia for all his help off-line.

[Michael Eck]

I wish we had the compact model. We're using the first generation L-I, which, as portable as it is, has a much larger base. Also, we only use the sub-woofer on about 25 percent of our dates. Usually the single stick is fine for the venues we're at, ranging from 30-125 people.

[Tim2723]

Thanks for that, Michael. Just to clarify, I bought the newest model. There are three of these things out now: The original version I that has the big, half-moon base, the version II with the smaller base and folding legs, and the new compact that has the bass speakers in the power unit and the tower that extends from it. The compact is only 250 watts (as opposed to 500 watts for the two big models), but we've been doing these small venues with a 180 watt Behringer powered mixer and a pair of 10" speakers on tripods. Since we only run that with the main volume at 9 O'clock, the 250 watt Bose should be fine for us.

I only got to see a Bose once live. It was the original Model I and was in one of our own normal venues (we showed up on the wrong night!). The guy using it in that room had it turned down to a bare whisper and it was still too loud for the room. That's why I figure the smaller 250 watt unit will work fine for us. He let me come up and do a couple of tunes through it, and I was very impressed with the sound.

This is the one I ordered:

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Bose-L1-Compact-Portable-Line-Array-System?sku=581917

[woodwizard]

This is the one we got but with the tone match engine...

http://www.amazon.com/Bose-L1-Model-II-System/dp/B000RBEYQ8

[Tim2723]

That will be the one I get for the larger jobs if this all works out to plan. We're not playing the bigger rooms and outdoor venues too often anymore. Probably 95% of our work is now in smaller venues, so I'll probably just stow our bigger traditional PA and bring it out for those occasions. Mostly though, I'm looking forward to not carrying so much stuff. I can't do it like I could when I was 18!! LOL!

[jim_n_virginia]

Yeah I wish we had the newer verision but we use the old Classic L1 with the big D base. WHat I like about the new version besides lighter weight is with the Tonematch you don't have to stoop down and much to adjust it is waist level. Of course you can plug im a mixer and put it on a chair and it's not so bad but when we use both systems we just plug directly into the base. Just seems quicker and easier for me.

Tim your back is definitely gonna love the ease of transport! LOL! And like anything the more you use it the easier it is to set up and get zero'd in! I leave all settings pretty much the same now just turn volumes down make a few adjustmenst to the gain depending on the venue and then just bring up the sound. Takes me 5 minutes! :mandosmiley:

[Tim2723]

Thanks Jim, and thanks too for all your help over the last, what...year or so?! LOL

It seems like I might be the first to use the compact model here, so I'll try my best to give it a good workout. Right now we have 16 gigs booked for August where I expect to be able to use it. If it doesn't do the job, then back it goes after that (there's a 45 day return on it). But I figure by then I'll either figure it out or have learned my lesson. I didn't get the Tone Match because it doesn't have the input connectivity we need. Instead, I ordered a six channel SoundCraft mixer that I'll patch into the line input. I like SoundCraft products.

Thanks again!

[Tim2723]

Well, it's here. Not exactly what I envisioned, but I'm keeping an open mind. I have to run off to our Tuesday gig, but I'll play with it in the morning. It just seems awfully small. Can those tiny little speakers really put out enough sound?

[Hallmark498]

Do you place the speakers out front of the one mic set up?

[mandroid]

.. How tiny is it, Tim?

[jim_n_virginia]

Tim the compact is made for a single singer/player type in a coffee house or something. It is the smallest system they got. You may need to take it back and swap for a single big system like the L1. If you buy the classic L1 (with the D base not the folding feet) it isn't that much more. I seen them for around $1700.00 WELL worth it to me!

[Tim2723]

I hear you Jim, but by all accounts this thing is supposed to handle 150+ in small to medium venues. If it works half as well as the reviews say, I'll also pick up an L-1 system II (with the folding legs) for bigger jobs. It's just that this is so radically different from anything I've played in my life. It's a little bit spooky, ya know?

[Eliot Greenspan]

played through one at an impromtu rehearsal/gig, when we found out that the hotel bar/restaurant where we were staying before a larger gig the next night, had a small stage and one of these systems. They had a small mixer leading into the primary channel and we ran two mics, one guitar, one mando into it. Sounded crisp and clean and had no problem filling a small room w/ about 20-25.

Playing the larger L-1, w/ the same duo set up, I also find it sort've starts pushing its limit at a noisy bar w/ about 70-100.

Aside from the small size and ease of set up. The thing I love most about these systems (when you get it right), is the fact that as a player yr hearing the house mix the whole time. Really great for singing/vocals.

[Sarah Jones]

I bought one a year ago (MkII with Tonematch mixer and bass bin). I use it for solo gigs and it's awesome. Set up time really is 10 minutes and I'm relaxed and ready to play rather than needing a shower from all the lifting.

Played a large hall in a UK university on our last tour and at the soundcheck the venue manager rushed out and wondered what I was using for PA as it was so much easier and cleaner sound than the large house system!

Sarah

[Tim2723]

Hi Sarah and welcome!

Thanks everyone for the input. I just did an A/B test with it against the small traditional PA we've been using for these smaller venues. The Bose is significantly louder, at least from the stage position, than the trad system (2 ten-inch passives w/horns, on tripods, fired by an 180 watt powered mixer). I'm feeling pretty good about it right now, but tomorrow will be the first acid test. We'll be playing the largest of the 'small' venues, so if it cover that, I'll have a lot more confidence'

I have the distinct impression that it will never replace our large PA system for outdoor jobs or wedding halls, but for the small bar scene I'm very encouraged so far.

I do like the set up time. I have this unpacked and ready in the time it takes just to haul in the other gear.

[Tim2723]

BTW, my first impression of the SoundCraft mixer is very, very positive. It's the first one I've owned, but I've played through them before. SoundCraft seems to be top level gear.

I especially like that it doesn't have a graphic equalizer, a device my partner has never been able to keep his hands off! He's one of those guys who says "My guitar needs a little more bottom", then adjusts the graphic EQ. I calmly and gently mention that he JUST CHANGED EVERYTHING PLUGGED INTO THE BOARD, but that doesn't bother him.

[Sarah Jones]

Hi Tim,

thanks for the welcome. One factor in the loudness of the Bose system is that because it is a line array the drop off in db is half that of a normal point source speaker. So you normally lose 6db when you double the distance from the source - but with a line array you only lose 3db. The result is that in the appropriate room the sound is more evenly spread and it louder at the back than normal point source speakers. I'd also agree with you that the L1 would not replace a large PA system! I'm keeping my larger rig for bigger and more complicated gigs!

[foldedpath]

One factor in the loudness of the Bose system is that because it is a line array the drop off in db is half that of a normal point source speaker.

I think the use of the term "line array" for this Compact version is a bit of a stretch by the Bose marketing department. The following link shows what it looks like inside, and I don't believe it's what most audio professionals would consider a line array:

http://www.keymusic.com/gfx_productcode/108945/3/Bose-L1-Compact-System.jpg

The L1 towers get a little closer since they're actually in a vertical line, but the whole concept is compromised by the way most people will be using them... directly onstage, and often with part of the pattern blocked by the performers (if they're set up to the rear for monitors as well as mains, the way Bose recommends). Line arrays can't work if something is placed in front of them. Every actual "line array" I've ever seen has been a big stack of speakers flown above the audiences heads, where the pattern can work as intended. Here's some info on Wiki about how line arrays work, for those interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_array

That's not to say these Bose systems won't work when scaled for the right application, i.e. solo gigs and duos, maybe a small band if the room is right. But the line array hype is a bit much, considering the way most people will set up and use the speakers. Again, just my opinion. I'm looking forward to hearing how it works for Tim.

[jim_n_virginia]

Tim keep in mind that the sound that eminates for the Bose is different. It seems to flow all around and it may not seem very loud you can walk quite a distance away and the sound is the same.

With my big PA using the 15" JBL main the sound just blast out in your face. If you walk from one side to the other the sound changes with the loudest when you are directly in front of the speaker. In a club setting I have found sometimes the owners and patron are used to that blasting sound in their face that they are used to and that is when you'll hear the "turn it up"

The sound from the Bose is more even and spread out thats why you don't need monitors you hear what the audience hears. Also don't know if the compact has presets but if it does play with them a lot you be surprised at the different responses using different presets.

Looking forward to your reviews (good or bad but hopefully not bad!) as you do your shows!

[Tim2723]

Thanks again all. I'd have to say that the biggest difference in my A/B test was that the traditional speakers were blasting in my face, while the Bose seemed to be a softer, more integrated experience. It seemed louder, but the feeling was very different. The proof is in the tasting, so tomorrow night I'll know a lot more. Taking the trad system as a backup, of course! Years ago it used to be cool to tape streamers to your amp and watch them stand straight out when you played. Anybody remember that? It doesn't happen with the Bose.

[Sarah Jones]

[QUOTE=foldedpath;826664]I think the use of the term "line array" for this Compact version is a bit of a stretch by the Bose marketing department. The following link shows what it looks like inside, and I don't believe it's what most audio professionals would consider a line array:]

Hi foldedpath, yes of course you're right about the compact. I had forgotten that it was the compact we were talking about. The L1 towers were in my head!

[Hallmark498]

We love ours. We use it with a single condenser mic in our duo and it's just great.

Does it feed back with the stack behind the mic? Or do you put the stack out front?

Our band is looking at getting new equipment so just wondering how well this would work for us, we use "two" one mics. One as the main mic the other for breaks and fills.

[Tim2723]

FIRST NIGHT'S RESULTS

OK. Last night we played the largest, loudest room I where would expect to use our small traditional PA (2 ten-inch passive cabs, a five-channel powered mixer with 180 watts, and no monitors). Instead of that, we plugged in the Bose L-1 Compact.

The room: A medium building seating over 200. It is broken up into five adjoining rooms. The main hall seats 75, two side rooms that seat 25 each, and two back halls that seat 40 each. We normally play to one of the two back halls using our small PA and have no trouble at all covering 40 seats at nominal 'restaurant volume', that is, moderately loud background music as opposed to loud concert levels. This night though, we were placed in the large front hall seating 75. We would normally bring out our larger PA for this room, but decided to put the Bose to the test.

The set up: Guitar, mandolin, vocals, whistle and flute. Two players standing four feet apart with the Bose in its fully extended configuration about four feet back and between us. Two dynamic mics and instruments with pickups going onto the Bose through a SoundCraft EPM 6 channel mixer.

What happened: We started the night with about 40 people in the front and side rooms. With the Bose at 50% we were clearly heard at restaurant level throughout the 75 seat room and side rooms, and as background music in the two back rooms. Very impressive for such a compact unit, and about as good as our small traditional system would do. So, performing better than expected.

The manager asked us to turn down. I nearly fainted. Are you kidding?!! Turn down this little thing? But we reduced to 30% power and were still heard comfortably in the front and side rooms, but lost the back rooms. No big deal. The manager gets what the manager wants. This ain't a concert, and you're paid to play as loud as you're told. The manager then asks us to turn down again. So we go to 25%.

After an hour the audience had swelled to about 50 in the front room and the side rooms were filled; about 90 people altogether. We increased to 50% again and were still heard through the front and side rooms. The manager asked us to turn back down. We went to 40%.

By the third hour the place is filled to capacity and the front room is SRO and noisy (it's Happy Hour). Our small traditional PA would have been totally overwhelmed, and without monitors so would we. We are now pushing the Bose to its limits (for our set up). The crowd of 80-90 in the front room were still treated to comfortable background music, and several patrons at the far wall were singing along. The side and back rooms were a total loss, but no one expected otherwise. Stage volume is loud and clear. No trouble at all hearing each other and every single note.

We probably could have gotten more out of the Bose by rearranging the set up slightly. I think we could have placed it to one side and a bit forward to get more output before feedback. But that will be another test.

Bottom line: This was a job for our large PA (12" cabs on tripods, floor wedges, 1200 watts). Even the slick Bose advertisers wouldn't have recommended using it under these circumstances. Yet, for what we needed to do - background music, not a rock concert - this little widget performed better than anyone expected. Clear sound throughout the room and we could hear each other no matter what. We were happy, the crowd was happy, the manager was happy. I have very high confidence that this will work for all of the other small venues we bought it to do.

[Eliot Greenspan]

Congrats. With a similar duo configuration, I prefer to place it to the side and more forward as you mention, for just the reasons you mention. You just need enough of an angle so that you're getting enough sound to work as monitors, and it allows for greater volume before feedback.... Given a huge stage, where the unit can be placed 6'-8' behind you as Bose recommends, the direct behind placement might work, but I've never been lucky enough to experience that (or the world where each musician has his/her own tower...)

[jim_n_virginia]

Does it feed back with the stack behind the mic? Or do you put the stack out front?

The system does not feed back because you adjust gain until the green light goes red then you back off a little and thats it. Now if the tower is behind you and you use dynamic mics like a Shure SM-58 you can get a LOT of gain before it turns red and if you use a sensitive condenser mic (we use AT-4033) you don't get that much gain but if you move the tower in front of you you will get more gain using a condenser mic.

They talk about this and how to use the system playing BG and doing the one mic setup and all that over on the Bose Forum.

If you are using two mics I assume they are not condenser mics so the tower can be right behind you and you will be able to hear yourself through the speakers thus eliminating the need floor monitors.

[Tim2723]

I wonder if it would be more beneficial to buy one of the larger L-1 units for bigger jobs or to get a second Compact and run them together? Would two 250 watt units put out the same potential volume as a single 500 watt unit? I know with other powered speakers you just keep adding speakers until you have the loudness you need. Is it the same with these things? Any ideas from the Bose users?

To be frank, I was impressed enough on the first try to seriously consider dumping both my traditional PAs and going with these. We don't do the mosh-pit-from-hell jobs that earned me the moniker of Destroyer of Mandolins. We're getting too old for that and these Bose systems really appeal to my aching bones. :whistling:

Actually, never mind. I just called Bose and they said that two Compacts aren't the equivalent of one System II, but that it is significantly larger than the pair. So I guess my next target would be the L-1 System II with single bass cabinet. Won't need it until next March (St. Patrick's Day) so I'll save up my pennies.

[Tim2723]

...Given a huge stage, where the unit can be placed 6'-8' behind you as Bose recommends, the direct behind placement might work, but I've never been lucky enough to experience that...

I get the impression Bose developed the Compact for those reasons. There are way more weekend warriors slugging it out in bars and restaurants than there are famous touring bands. The only big Bose I saw was in one of our own small venues, and the guy couldn't turn it down far enough to satisfy the manager. I've been earning my living for the last 16 years mostly in the restaurant trade. They invariably have two things: Tiny little spaces to play because music was an afterthought, and they want it quiet so the patrons can enjoy their meals. In a restaurant you are not a center-stage attraction. It's not a concert where people have paid to hear you. You're just one part of the patron's experience.

A lot of bands lose jobs in restaurants because they insist on being loud. In fact, last night's job was the place we used to play on Sunday afternoons. They stopped the Sunday music because everyone was complaining about the volume of the music from the other bands. They re-hired us to do happy hours on Thursday because we were the 'nice, quiet band'. Actually, our success has been greatly propagated on being the nice, quiet band. Except for that six year stint in the mosh pit.

[jim_n_virginia]

Given a huge stage, where the unit can be placed 6'-8' behind you as Bose recommends, ..)

We've had the towers 3 feet behind us and had no problems if you EQ it right. And really they don't have to be behind you they can be out to the side angled inward so we can hear.

And also we do a lot of Rest/Cafe work too and Tim is right on about being tastefully in the background. People don't go out to eat to see a concert, music in this setting is the band or performer is part of the ambiance. I too have seen a lot of performers come and go because they wanted to crank it up in a nice quiet restaurant! LOL!

In a setting like that I usually set sound so you can hear us but the patron can still have a conversation with the person at the table. That's what makes the Bose so great for this kind of venue. It doesn't blast in your face like a conventional PA the music just kinds of flows out and around you.

Also believe me I KNOW all about having a tiny foot print to play on. One of our regular gigs is a pretty upscale nice restaurant (why they like BG I haven't figured out yet! LOL) and it is a small place maybe 10 tables so we literally have about an 6' X 4" corner for FIVE of us to play. We only use one tower for this gig and instead of behind us the tower is off to the left and tilted towards us a little so we can hear what the audience heard. And we are bunched together like sardines but we can hear our self pretty good though.

Tim the more you play out the more tricks you will figured out. Like angling your tower, different angles for the mic, speaker placement etc.. After a while you will walk in a room and immediately know what kind of set up you have to do to get the best sound.

I bet you get the big L1 eventually! LOL!

There is a Folk organization (Tidewater Friends of Folk Music) in my area and they host a lot of good concerts during the year and the sound man for them has two L1's and a compact in the middle. He uses a 16 channel mixer with a snake to a sound booth. They regularly do concerts for 500+ auditoriums. He has been using the Bose equipment since it came out and he has it down pat and it is probably the best setup I have every heard for sound and clarity.

[Tim2723]

Jim, I'm sure you are right about all that. There's something weird about the Bose. Even though it is radically different than anything I've ever used, there's something instinctive about using it. You and Eliot and others have all said it. You kind of just know what you need to do to improve things next time.

You guys know me by now. I'm not the kind of guy that runs off all crazy about new things. When someone asks about electrified mandolins I'm the first to say they are not for everybody even though I really like them, right? I'm the phlegmatic Yankee after all.

Well, I have to say that you guys were right about this Bose contraption. Tonight we used it in one of our normal small venues with about 50 people and it worked perfectly again. Exactly what everyone wanted. The folks down front could have a comfortable conversation and the folks in the back could hear plain and clear. It doesn't blast in your face, like Jim said. It just fills up the whole room with comfortable sound that everybody likes. I don't know why it works that way, but the boss was happy, and we got paid and praised. That's good enough for me. I still have all this month to buy it or return it, but I think it's probably a keeper, if only for the small jobs.

BTW Jim, the north Jersey circuit is full of Irish pubs and theme restaurants. Our contracts are with places like the Old Shebeen, the Shannon Rose, Molly Malone's, O'Reilly's Pub, and The Blarney Station. But what's up with Bluegrass music in an upscale restaurant? LOL!!! Seriously though, thanks for all the help in this.

[Tim2723]

OK, third job with the Compact and everything is better than I could have ever expected. No regrets at all. I'm so convinced that I've gone ahead and got the bigger System II even before I really need it. With these two systems, I'm confident that we will be able to play any venue that comes our way except the largest outdoor gigs where sound is provided anyway.

I stand by my earlier statement that I'm no sucker who goes in for the latest gadget. But these things are just too impressive to ignore. I only wish they were around thirty years ago, or that I was thirty years younger. Maybe I'll be able to stay on the circuit for another decade without killing myself with all the lifting and lugging.

[Tim2723]

BTW, I should mention that, true to my nature, the Bose took a full 8 ounces of whiskey and ice cubes in an unexpected spill. No problems at all. Just kept on playing.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

thanks Tim and Jim for keeping us posted on this gear. I have to refurbish the gear for my Cajun band, and although it is a full dance band, I think I am about to recommend this avenue. it may be their best option, financially, and maybe sonically. and this is from an old school, although unschooled and inferior, sound tech.

[Tim2723]

Jonathon, if there is one bit of the Bose advertisement that could really be categorized as hype, it's that every player needs his own tower. Like any other quality loudspeaker, the Bose can reproduce anything from a single kazoo to a 500 piece marching band. You just need to add an appropriate mixer. If I had it to do over, I would have followed the other's advice and got the larger model first. As it is, I'm adding the big model to my set up now, even though the small one will probably see more service in my situation.

Go for it. These are pricey, yes. But they bring so much to the table that I don't think I'd ever be happy with a traditional system again.

You think you're unschooled and inferior? Compared to Jim, Eliot, and all the others I'm a retarded monkey. But I got this thing working full-out on the first try, and I've only gotten better with it every night. Go for it.

[foldedpath]

thanks Tim and Jim for keeping us posted on this gear. I have to refurbish the gear for my Cajun band, and although it is a full dance band, I think I am about to recommend this avenue. it may be their best option, financially, and maybe sonically. and this is from an old school, although unschooled and inferior, sound tech.

Jonathan, as a small break from the Bose love lately ;), here's one other perspective.

I've looked at the Bose stuff and decided to go with a more conventional PA for the bands I play in. The reason for me (and maybe for you) is that I need a PA system that scales up or down well, and can handle any gig we're likely to run into. That means everything from a quiet coffee shop gig, to a full-blown Contra Dance or Céilidh band. I like taking a tiny amount of sound reinforcement gear to small gigs, and having whatever I need to handle the larger gigs. There is also a consideration about feedback control which I'll get into further down the post.

On the scaling issue... I've heard a few Bose systems in use (the L1's, not the smaller Compact). It does well in the niche it's designed for, but it can sound strained when asked to do more. Because the towers are so expensive, it doesn't scale up in a very cost-effective way compared to other modern lightweight PA gear. Even the often-touted weight advantage doesn't always hold. The single K10 powered speaker I use for small gigs is only 32 lbs., much less weight than the full L1 II tower when assembled.

Take a Contra Dance for example, which is probably similar to what you run into with a full Cajun dance band. The rooms are usually long and narrow. Not only does the band need to be heard clearly, but also the caller out on the floor among stomping feet, using a wireless mic. That situation might call for powered cabs up on stands with an angle mount, firing across the heads of the nearby dancers and out to the back of the room. Maybe even some added satellite speakers at the rear for coverage. Playing outdoors is another challenge, as the sound just disappears with no nearby walls for reflection. I like having plenty of watts in reserve when playing outdoors.

Another reason I've avoided the Bose system is related to feedback control. I prefer a system where I can drop narrow filters on the monitor mix, while leaving the house mix as clean as possible. Just minimal EQ for tone shaping.

With the Bose idea, you hear what the audience hears. At first that sounds like a great idea... no more hassle setting up monitors! But it also means the audience hears whatever you have to do to control feedback with EQ. It's all just one big mix, with no separation to keep the house sound clean. If you never have feedback problems, then this won't be an issue. Probably no big deal for a restaurant gig. But for larger or louder gigs where you might get into feedback problems and have to use some feedback control EQ, you won't get as clean a sound out to the house as you would with separate mains and monitors. It's just a trade-off you make with this idea; there's no getting around it.

The bottom line here, is that I don't think the Bose system is a one-size-fits-all solution. What works at lower volume for a restaurant gig, might not work for a barn dance. And unfortunately the online discussion about the Bose system does tend to drift into that one-size-fits-all direction. Think carefully about your actual needs, now and in the future, before spending this much on a very specialized sound reinforcement system.

[Tim2723]

Thanks FP for reining in my momentary burst of enthusiasm. Jonathan, I really shouldn't have shouted go for it. The Bose Compact (and that's the one were talking about at the moment) would not likely be enough for a dance band. Based on my limited experience so far, that would take the larger model, perhaps even two of them like Jim uses, or a large traditional system like FP mentions.

Like the Ovation mandolin that I love so much for its specific advantages in my specific part of the music world, the Bose is not for everybody either. I still believe that I'll need my larger traditional PA from time to time.

Please don't take my enthusiasm too much to heart. I'm just excited about a compact, space-saving system that will spare my back. It's not that it's so lightweight - the Compact weighs as much as my small trad system and the Larger model is a full 80 pounds - but it cuts down trips to the car and avoids lifting heavy cabinets onto tripod stands. It takes up less than half the space on the stage and assembles in a minute. Those things are really important to me.

[Tim2723]

OK, back to the love fest.

Last night's gig was perfect. A 90 seat house; us against the far wall. A quiet dinning crowd. The folks down front held normal conversations. The folks on the far wall heard every note (and every mistake!). We were asked to turn down again (I still can't believe that is happening). We have a shallow stage, so the Bose is off to one side and a couple of feet behind us. There is no hint of feedback, and nothing is even threatening to go into the red. The manager in this place was familiar with the Bose because other bands have used them. He was actually excited about it because he knew we could be heard without causing complaints. He was right.

My primary concern at this point is the one I've driven poor Jim crazy with for a year: Will it hold up mechanically? I'm worried about having a weight on a stick that has connections in the middle. Will something break? Will a connection fail? How dependable is this contraption?

[jim_n_virginia]

Hey Tim I am a gear head I love talking about this stuff! LOL! Did you get the extended warranty? I don't usually get extended warranties but on big ticket electronics I usually do and it has paid off a few times.

Never had to use it for the Bose yet but if I do I have it. I've only been using the Bose L1 about 3 or 4 years. This is my second system. First one I bought I sold to buy a mandolin I wanted really bad! LOL! I missed it a LOT when we had to go back to lugging around my PA again so I bought another as soon as I could. I've had this one about a year and it is still like new and working great but time will tell.

Like any electronics you don't wanna throw it around in the back of a truck. As you know they do come with thin padded bags more to protect from scuffing than banging. I have seen flight cases for the system on eBay if you really wanna protect it. If I was touring nationally or something I might invest in something like that but we just play locally with an occasional out of town gig! Plus it would be easy to get a case and cut some foam for good protection.

For the most part I just make sure I bag it up before and after a show and the speaker towers I make sure I don't put anything heavy on them I don't wanna dent the screens.

Seems durable to me but time will tell. I read the Bose Forum a lot and I haven't read any posts of any durability problems. Most of the problems I read about are technical in nature like figuring out speaker placement and what not for each individual band.

Also here's a tip for when you are not using your system for a show hook your iPod up to that sucker it makes a GREAT stereo system for home! LOL!

[Tim2723]

Thanks Jim. The things I worry about are the bayonet connections bending and not fitting together, or the electrical connections not making contact. The soft cases are pretty well made, and I'm not worried about those yet. I hope that when the time comes I'll be able to get replacement covers. I've seen the hard cases (SKL?) but that's more than I think I'll ever need and would kind of negate the compact, light weight part of the deal. It travels in the car, not the hold of a plane, so I'm OK with that part. Mostly I worry about a drunk falling against the tower and snapping something. Falling drunks represent 90% of my equipment losses, as you know.

I guess if it cost $200 I wouldn't worry at all. It's just so different, and so pricey, that I have to learn to trust it. I know what a plywood speaker box can take, and I've hauled gear up and down the state of New Jersey for years. But never anything like this.

[jim_n_virginia]

The bottom line here, is that I don't think the Bose system is a one-size-fits-all solution. What works at lower volume for a restaurant gig, might not work for a barn dance. And unfortunately the online discussion about the Bose system does tend to drift into that one-size-fits-all direction. .

I have never said this sound system is for all situations. NO sound reinforcment system is a one size fits all. But using two L1's can easily handle a large auditorium with 300-400 audience easily. I have seen it done with my own eyes many times.

Just from my experience the only thing two Bose PAS systems probably won't handle (and I don't know I've never tried it! LOL) is a large outdoor concert like at a big festival of something. Every once in a while we'll get a BIG event like a Knights of Columbus yearly picnic or something like that where it is outdoors and spread out then yes we need my regular big PA with the 15" JBL mains and 12" monitors. But those gigs are not very often for us and 9 times out of 10 for events that big they usually supply the sound. We've never had to supply our own sound at a festival in 2 years of playing in this band.

99% of our gigs where we need to supply sound are church picnics, private parties, small eating establishments, Farmer Markets, medium size concert halls etc. Our Bose system easily handles all that.

It's not a one size fits all but it's pretty danged close!

Also don't know what you are talking about feedback? I can honestly say I have never had a feedback episode while we were doing a show except one and that was when I went through a learning phase using two condenser mics. Now that I know what I am doing it is almost feedback proof.

And also if it were possible I would bet you cash money I can set up our Bose PAS faster than you can your PA! LOL! Literally it just takes us minutes with all band members helping. (I trained them all! LOL) And man you should see how fast we can pack up when the night is over and we have the cash! :))

Anyways I know I can get a little overboard about this system but I can't help it. After lugging all that gear around so long it is just so nice to bring in 3 pieces of equipment and snap it together and plug in one condenser mic and we are good to go! And it sound good too that just makes it better!

Now if I could tell Bose one thing I would ask if they could build in some reverb control. I know I can add a component to do that but sometimes it would be nice just to add a tiny little bit of reverb to the vocals.

Now back to the Love Fest!!! :grin:

Now Tim you need to get another L1 so you can have one on each side with the compact in the middle! hehehehe That way it will all match and have good Fung Shui!

[jim_n_virginia]

Mostly I worry about a drunk falling against the tower and snapping something. Falling drunks represent 90% of my equipment losses, as you know.

I guess if it cost $200 I wouldn't worry at all. It's just so different, and so pricey, that I have to learn to trust it. I know what a plywood speaker box can take, and I've hauled gear up and down the state of New Jersey for years. But never anything like this.

When we use my big PA I have 15" JBL mains hoisted in the air on stands 5 feet in the air! I worry more about someone knocking one of them over than the Bose Tower. :)) If one of them fell over and hit someone not paying attention it could hurt them really bad plus bust the speaker (I paid $400 for each speaker) not to mention the lawsuit!

It would be really hard to knock over a Bose tower if a drunk did he would more or less just break it maybe if he fell on it hard. But I don't think it would kill someone if it fell over not like a speaker on a stand if it hit you on the head.

If you are playing some really rowdy places like bars where you expect fights and such it might be a good idea to get equipment insurance. Like instrument insurance it is relatively cheap a few hundred a year and really gives you peace of mind.

Between my 10 year warranty on the Bose and my musician's insurance policy with Heritage I feel pretty covered for most anything.

Usually I try and put the towers behind us or out of traffic way but sometimes they are out front but I tell you if I saw someone staggering and looking like they are going to fall into one of our towers I would do a flying football tackle in a heartbeat to save the system! :))

[Tim2723]

Actually Jim, I have an L-1 model II on order right now. I don't foresee needing two for any of the jobs in store (since we gave up the mosh pit, and our big outdoor jobs come with sound provided), but I do see one show we do every year where I expect to put the bigger Bose out front and let it scream while putting the smaller one behind us for monitor purposes.

I agree 100%, even though my experience is limited to just a few jobs an a few places so far. Except for one brief squeal of feedback on the first try, I have not yet had any sign of trouble at all, and I've run the little Compact model loud enough to get complaints.

I'm absolutely certain that these will never replace the traditional sound system for every application. I don't think that's even possible or even desirable. But for the right job in the right place for the right band, I think these are remarkable contraptions.

I understand the complaint about the lack of reverb. But then again, these are really just powered speakers after all. In a way these are like the acoustic amps with a mic channel and an instrument channel. They're just bigger with a different kind of speaker arrangement. You can add any effect you want. I would imagine that the Bose would be very desirable for the traditional Bluegrass player though. After all, many BG traditionalists work very hard to get a pure, unadulterated sound by using high end microphones and lots of sophisticated gear. I guess I just don't understand why those folks would then want to add something artificial to the sound like canned reverb. As an Irish trad guy, I'm looking for something that sounds exactly like me but just really loud. That's what I like about the Bose.

[foldedpath]

Also don't know what you are talking about feedback? I can honestly say I have never had a feedback episode while we were doing a show except one and that was when I went through a learning phase using two condenser mics. Now that I know what I am doing it is almost feedback proof.

Different bands, different setups? For the string band, we'll use a total of 3 or 4 instrument condenser mics, plus another 3 vocal condenser mics. We never use pickups, mics are on everything except electric bass. The Celtic trio is simpler -- just three clip-on condenser mics plus a vocal condenser, but that's still 4 open condenser mic channels. What are you using? We won't all have the same feedback issues.

Part of what I'm getting at here, is not extrapolating from "what works for me," to "what works in for everyone, in every situation."


And also if it were possible I would bet you cash money I can set up our Bose PAS faster than you can your PA!

Hey, no argument there. The Bose system is fast to set up and tear down. Although, for the smaller gigs where I'm just using one K10 powered speaker, I'm hauling less total weight from the car.
;)

[foldedpath]

I understand the complaint about the lack of reverb. But then again, these are really just powered speakers after all. In a way these are like the acoustic amps with a mic channel and an instrument channel. They're just bigger with a different kind of speaker arrangement. You can add any effect you want. I would imagine that the Bose would be very desirable for the traditional Bluegrass player though. After all, many BG traditionalists work very hard to get a pure, unadulterated sound by using high end microphones and lots of sophisticated gear. I guess I just don't understand why those folks would then want to add something artificial to the sound like canned reverb. As an Irish trad guy, I'm looking for something that sounds exactly like me but just really loud.

I'm mostly an Irish trad guy too, and I still like just a touch of reverb in the PA.... *if* (and it's a big "if"), the room isn't already reflective to begin with.

When you hear someone playing an acoustic instrument unamplified in a room, you're hearing subtle reflections from the environment that your ear interprets as natural sound. Placing a microphone close to an instrument (or worse, a pickup), takes all that away if you play in a fairly dead room.

We use a Soundcraft MFXi8 mixer that has a decent built-in reverb (cheap Lexicon chip, but it's not bad). If the room is hard walls, floor, and ceiling, I never use it... there's already plenty of reflection. But if the room is carpeted, with acoustic tile on the ceiling and walls far away, I'll dial in a little reverb to help things along.

And that's always a light touch of reverb in the mains, not the monitors. Vocalists generally do better without "singing to the effects" in a PA system.

[Tim2723]

I don't think anyone using these has really said they work for everyone, every time. Just the opposite actually. But I know that I held off for a long time because of my fears of feedback mostly. Based on everything I'd ever learned, theoretical and practical, the Bose should be a feedback nightmare. But having used it, my fears have been unfounded so far. Can it feedback? Of course. But so can any sound system. When it happens we deal with it. It's just that with the Bose we deal with it in a different manner. It won't work for everybody, and if you're among that group, then avoid the Bose. I for one won't recommend it to everyone, but at the same time I can't disparage it based on imaginary problems or theoretical conjecture. It shouldn't work as well as it does, but yet, it does. Remarkably, and to my complete amazement, the Bose has so far proven to be less feedback prone than my traditional sound gear. And significantly so.

Concerning reverb, that is and always will be a matter of personal choice and taste. As Irish players, we should remember that our ancestors didn't have canned reverberation. The room yielded what it would. So there's no real sense in arguing the point. The Bose has no reverb circuits, but neither does the QSC K10. Indeed, what are they both but two-channel powered speakers? You can add reverb to the Bose and K10 with equal ease, and by the same methods, so there's no important difference there. The only significant difference, and I believe you made this point particularly well earlier, is that when the Bose serves as monitor and main simultaneously there is no independent control. That could be a serious problem for many players in many situations.

But again, the Bose is what it is. It is up to the prospective user to understand the limitations of any system they choose. Our task is to present the information, and I think this discussion is very valuable in that regard.

[Tim2723]

This will probably be my last installment to this thread for those who have followed along, interested in the Bose Compact.

We played the same room last night that I used the Bose for its maiden voyage. This time there were no hassles at all, and because of its performance we received many compliments about being heard without overwhelming the crowd. We have been re-booked for another month's work, thanks in some small part to this weird contraption.

[Tim2723]

Sorry for resurrecting this old thread, but there has been a new development that I thought some might find interesting. We've realized an unexpected advantage to the Bose L-1 Compact (the little one) in the restaurant/bar trade. No one is intimidated by it. After using it now for about 20 jobs in restaurants and smaller bars where music is normally quiet background, we've had the managers compliment us on the fact that patrons don't mind sitting close. The Bose doesn't look like a loudspeaker to them, and they're not afraid of it. With our traditional PA and its speakers on poles we've had people turn around and leave or take a seat far away in fear that they would be blown away. Even though our regular PA was no louder, they recognised it and drew away.

[jim_n_virginia]

Never thought about that aspect. I am guilty of that myself. I hate loud music blasting in my face and would NEVER sit at a table in front of speakers in a restaurant and I too have walked out if the only table left is right in front of the speakers.

Pretty astute of the owner to notice that. Might be a good selling point to bring up when scouting gigs. Thanks

[Tim2723]

It's a funny bit of psychology, isn't it? I had the thought that this might be a good system for the traditional Irish players (ITM). While we sing the folk songs and stand up on a stage, a lot of Irish pubs have sessions where everything is done acoustically. That's a great tradition going back centuries in Ireland, but the modern American pub is a real struggle for a lot of these guys. They resist the idea of a PA because it's so out of place in their setting. But one of these can be easily hidden away. Put some shamrock stickers and a paper leprechaun on it and it fades into the woodwork.

On a popular Irish music site I visit, players of all kinds of instruments are always asking about which mandolin or guitar or tin whistle is the loudest. They constantly fight each other by picking as hard as they can or blowing their brains out to be loud enough. It can get to the point that everyone is pounding so hard all the music goes away. Yet one of these little Bose contraptions might well solve the problem.

[foldedpath]

I agree about how PA systems can sometimes scare the customers, and I recognize the Bose system's advantage here. But for venues where you just need to cover a small area, there are ways to avoid the "scary speaker on a stick" syndrome with conventional PA gear. I played a gig a while back, where we were seated on a raised stage platform in a bar. We didn't need to throw all the way to the back of the bar, and the levels weren't very loud. So we just set the powered speakers on the floor at the sides of the stage, with the little micro-monitor on top, facing back at us. In other situations, I might put the speakers on chairs, to keep a low profile.

It all depends on the situation. Just because the speakers have their most efficient audience coverage pattern when used up on stands, doesn't mean you always have to use them this way.


It's a funny bit of psychology, isn't it? I had the thought that this might be a good system for the traditional Irish players (ITM). While we sing the folk songs and stand up on a stage, a lot of Irish pubs have sessions where everything is done acoustically. That's a great tradition going back centuries in Ireland, but the modern American pub is a real struggle for a lot of these guys. They resist the idea of a PA because it's so out of place in their setting. But one of these can be easily hidden away. Put some shamrock stickers and a paper leprechaun on it and it fades into the woodwork.

Please, no. Not at our session, anyway. ;)

I can't speak for everyone, but my S.O. and I host a small trad session at a bar in the area. Amplification is the last thing we need. The acoustics aren't good... it's your typical American "Sports Bar" with a big open space, hard reflective walls and floor, and the bar conversation level can be high. Still, we'll deal with it acoustically. We'll sit closer together if there is a lot of bar noise, and we're working on getting a blend of the softer and louder instruments working together.

Once the first person starts to play amplified, it can devolve into an escalating contest of who is the loudest. It just defeats the purpose of the session.

Also we're trying to educate the bar crowd that this isn't a performance; that sessions are something a little different. It's just some nice ambient acoustic music on a slow night of the week, when the bar owner wouldn't normally be booking a band anyway. We get a free round of drinks, the occasional tip or round of drinks bought for us, but that's about it. It ain't a formal performance. Bringing in PA gear, even something low-profile like the Bose compact, unavoidably brings with it the expectation that we're setting up for a performance.

I'm just speaking for myself and our session here, and I know some ITM sessions might not mind the occasional person bringing in amplification. Typically this would be for a keyboard player, since pianos have all but disappeared from pubs and bars these days.


On a popular Irish music site I visit, players of all kinds of instruments are always asking about which mandolin or guitar or tin whistle is the loudest. They constantly fight each other by picking as hard as they can or blowing their brains out to be loud enough. It can get to the point that everyone is pounding so hard all the music goes away. Yet one of these little Bose contraptions might well solve the problem.

That's a musician problem. It's people not listening to each other when they're playing together. They have too much "me" in their ears, and not enough of the overall group sound. I don't think amplification helps when there is a basic underlying problem like that.

[John Soper]

Jerry Garcia at a mid-70's concert: "This next set is acoustic music people- you have to listen louder..."

[Tim2723]

I guess you're right about that FP. It was just a passing thought. The competition to be loudest at the expense of the music is the reason I don't play sessions, or jams for that matter. Although a PA would likely devolve the music into a further competition, the problem already exists acoustically. I could see not wanting it any worse. It's just that the only session I played that was tolerable to me included amplification. But I'm not a session expert at all.

I like the "Scary speaker on a stick syndrome". I think we should call it that. I not sure you're correct about it though. I've had the same reaction whenever a speaker is recognizable, be it on a stick, sitting on the floor, or (for those old enough to remember) a 'column speaker' from the ancient days. The Bose doesn't look anything like any loudspeaker folks have seen. They just don't know what it is.