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8STRINGR
Jul-10-2010, 10:54pm
Hello fellow Cafe' ers!

Over the past year I have been experiencing the worst time with my mandolins strings. I know as you put on a new set of mandolin strings that "some" stretching is expected. But over the the past few months I am experiencing "unlimited" stretching of my strings to the point that after every song I have to ask one of the band members to say something to the audience while I try to quickly get this mandolin back in tune. I'll have an "E" string drop down to a "D flat" before the songs over with. I had to keep tuning the string to the point where the wraps of the loop end finally gives to where it's like tightening a noose. Either that happens or it finally breaks. Thank God I carry another mandolin to a show as a back up though it has the same string issues.

I know weather may have it's effect if we're at an outdoor venue but the problem persists even indoors. I know plnety of Artists who give theses strings a pounding and seem to have less of a problem than what I'm going through. The "problem area" doesn't seem to be with the tuning keys (wrap slippage) but with the string's loop ends. Any advise on what I can do to eleminate this ongoing problem ?

Thanks for all of your help, folks! :mandosmiley:

mrmando
Jul-11-2010, 12:20am
Do you have a large stash of the same brand of strings that you bought in one place?

Sometimes a bad batch of strings will get out there. You might check to see whether your string manufacturer has a guarantee of any kind, or a way for you to send a pack of strings to its quality control department.

Ron McMillan
Jul-11-2010, 12:28am
I wonder if you might have hit on the 'real' problem, that of slippage at the tuner end. There's only SO much stretch that a string can actually undergo, so perhaps the real issue here is at the tuner, not with the string itself. If the problem persists for such a long time, I'd be very busy focusing on the tuner, or on how the string is attached to the tuner, looking for issues there.

br

Starrshine
Jul-11-2010, 12:48am
I recently put some D'Addarios on that slipped at the loop. The strings were falling way flat as soon as I started playing. I wrote the company an email and they sent two sets of strings as replacements, very good service.
Bob

Paul Kotapish
Jul-11-2010, 1:21am
My guess is that you got a bad batch of strings. It would be extremely rare and unlikely that a bad tuner would cause such an extreme problem, and you'd probably see mechanical evidence of the problem. If the problem is confined to one string, you might check the tailpiece carefully. I have had one of the little hooks on Gibson-style tailpiece slowly deform due to metal fatigue, but again, that would be an extremely rare and unlikely situation. (In my case it was caused by accidentally putting an A string on where an E string should have been and tuning it up to pitch. Man that was high tension! It also wrecked the tailpiece.)

I've had trouble with the E strings in D'Addario sets in recent years, too.

In fact, I was changing strings just before a concert set at a July 4th festival and the loop end on both E strings just slipped like a noose and made it impossible to tune up.

I had a big stack of new E's in the case because of this same experience a few years back, so I was OK, but if I hadn't, I would have been in trouble. It seems to run in batches. I love D'Addarios in general, but if this problem persists, I'm going to switch to one of the brands that they don't manufacture.

When I had this problem before, D'Addario sent replacements. The problem seems confined to E strings.

Good luck.

Michael Lewis
Jul-11-2010, 2:40am
What sort of tailpiece are you using? The Gibson style usually holds strings better than round posts like some of the cast tailpieces. Some times the string cinches up and holds well but other times the loop can come completely unraveled on a smooth post.

8STRINGR
Jul-11-2010, 9:51am
Well, I didn't want to meantion D'Addarrio Strings (J-74) but they are the brand that I'm having the problem(s) with. I don't buy my strings in "bulk" but I do purchase several packs (in sets) to keep on hand. I had switched over to using D'Addarrios due to the GHS (PF-270) strings showing "voids" in the bronze windings on both the D and G strings (even after one gig) and they would eventually "Buzz" and I had used GHS strings for years. I had called the D'Addarrio Company about the problem and they did in fact send me more strings. BUT the problem still exists.

Strings, I have no problem purchasing. Strings continuing to go out of tune on me has me struggling through each show I do. The tuners were replaced last year because I thought that they may have had their run (it's an old mandolin) and it was time to replace them andf I thought that was the cause of the strings going out but I'm still having the same problem after going that route. I also have a 2007 custom made mandolin that has the same problem with the strings as well. They're in tune until I start chopping my chords leading up to my break on a tune and then my break sounds like #### because one or both strings on an E or A went out of tune. I hate it. I'm leaning towards figuring the problems are with the strings.

8STRINGR
Jul-11-2010, 9:59am
The tail piece is the standard, loop end hook assembly. It's an old F-5 mandolin that I've played for years and the tail piece has never been replaced. I've examined the hooks to be sure that they're not bending upwards or anything. They seem to be OK.

Willie Poole
Jul-11-2010, 8:09pm
If the loops are stretching out I would try buying some singles of some different brands and see which ones do the job and then go with that brand...I use nothing but GHS A-270`s now and have never had any of the problems you mentioned and I don`t change strings very often, in fact I hate new strings, the way they sound....When I do change strings I stretch them out pretty good, til just before they break..lol....Willie

allenhopkins
Jul-11-2010, 9:46pm
Sounds to me like defective strings. If the loop ends are "tightening like a noose" when you try to keep the strings at pitch, then the wrapping of the string around itself to form the loop, isn't tight enough. The string should break elsewhere along its length when over-tightened, before the loop tightens up -- if the string's properly manufactured.

If you buy several sets of strings at once, you may have received several sets from a "bad batch," where the machine that twists the strings into loops, wasn't properly adjusted. Try one set of another brand and see if the problem persists.

Tuner slippage can't be entirely ruled out, but it's very rare. If the tailpiece hooks are deforming, bending toward the bridge when you tighten strings, or if the tailpiece itself is deforming, it should be a one-time phenomenon, not recurring with different sets of strings. Once bent out of shape, cast tailpieces should stay out of shape, not spring back and re-deform.

One other remote possibility might be top sinkage or deforming, but this wouldn't be confined to E strings, which seem to be the main source of your woes. My "remote diagnosis" would be defective D'Addario E strings, with loops not twisted tight enough.

jim_n_virginia
Jul-12-2010, 1:27am
gotta be one of two things I think. Bad strings or tuners are slipping. J-74's will only stretch for a little while but after a few hours of moderate playing they should be all stretched out.

Get different strings from a different sourse than you last used or go to www.frets.com and look up how to lock your strings down on your tuner posts.

good luck!

Willie Poole
Jul-12-2010, 12:14pm
Come on guys...He said the loops were slipping and loosing their loop, that has nothing to do with the tuners or top shrinkage...Like I posted before try some different brand single strings and see if they do it....Willie

Pete Hicks
Jul-12-2010, 12:46pm
It sounds like it could be the way the strings are wrapped at the tuner. I always run the string back the other way and lock it under the windings. I never have any trouble with slippage.

Lefty Luthier
Jul-12-2010, 12:46pm
I hate to defend any manufacturer but I have been installing D'Addario J74s on mandolins for many years and have never experienced any loop slippage providing the correct tightening technique is followed. My custom Lefty tailpieces have slanted back round posts similar to the Allen Montalone and in my opinion they are far superior to the sheet metal stampings for both sound quality and string life. After verifying that the tuner connection is not slipping, one other thing that I would check is the adjustment screws on the bridge; a bit of wobble happens over time, which usually causes the outboard string to go flat.

allenhopkins
Jul-12-2010, 2:28pm
Can we all go back and read the OP's description? He says the "wraps of the loop are tightening like a noose." That would have nothing to do with slipping tuners, rocking bridges, deforming tailpiece tabs, strings improperly wrapped around the tuners, or sunspots.

If the loops on the end of the strings aren't properly twisted, and the loops are shrinking in size as string tension increases, you have defective strings. Not all D'Addario strings, but perhaps just a few sets. OP buys several sets at a time, so you get several sets from the same batch.

Now, if OP takes off the D'Addarios, and puts on a set of Shmergel Extra Crispies, and they go flat (or Scruggs) the same way, the floor's open for a variety of explanations, and you can call in CIS Nashvile or the Ghost Busters. 'Til then, I'm thinking strings. And Arby's.

8STRINGR
Jul-12-2010, 4:25pm
I appreciate all of the input folks. And not to stir up trouble with opinions but in my original post the string loops are slipping (like a noose) to the point that I had to at one time use a pair a needle nose pliers to get the loop off of the tailpiece hook(s).

I'm hoping that it's just a bad batch but what are the odds that if I bought 5-6 sets of strings that they all would've have came off the same press, packaged at the factory, distributed out to every store and supply warehouse, then randomly pulled from the rack of the supplier where I'm buying them from and receive every set as a bad batch ? Unless the sets had a serial number stamped on each set that may be the only way I (or the string manufacturer) could find the point of origin of the defects. I did have a rep from D'Addario tell me that they press out over 40,000 strings a day so again I ask, what are the odds ? They've been great strings since I've been using then but over time this has been an issue.

Mike Bunting
Jul-12-2010, 4:57pm
I appreciate all of the input folks. And not to stir up trouble with opinions but in my original post the string loops are slipping (like a noose) to the point that I had to at one time use a pair a needle nose pliers to get the loop off of the tailpiece hook(s).

I'm hoping that it's just a bad batch but what are the odds that if I bought 5-6 sets of strings that they all would've have came off the same press, packaged at the factory, distributed out to every store and supply warehouse, then randomly pulled from the rack of the supplier where I'm buying them from and receive every set as a bad batch ? Unless the sets had a serial number stamped on each set that may be the only way I (or the string manufacturer) could find the point of origin of the defects. I did have a rep from D'Addario tell me that they press out over 40,000 strings a day so again I ask, what are the odds ? They've been great strings since I've been using then but over time this has been an issue.
Actually you said "I had to keep tuning the string to the point where the wraps of the loop end finally gives to where it's like tightening a noose. Either that happens or it finally breaks." This implies that you were retuning (up) until all the "stretch" was gone and then the noose tightened. Nevertheless, it certainly is a perplexing problem. I've been using J-74's or J-75's on various mandolins for 30 years or so and have never had a problem like this.

mandotool
Jul-12-2010, 5:16pm
If i understand you correctly... you are continuing to buy the same strings from the same seller...and you are having the same result...
...it sounds like your seller has a bad batch...
Get your J74's from a different source/batch...or better yet ...try the EXP74's

Murphy Slaw
Jul-12-2010, 8:36pm
or better yet ...try the EXP74's

The plot thickens......

:popcorn:

allenhopkins
Jul-12-2010, 9:13pm
...what are the odds that if I bought 5-6 sets of strings that they all would've have came off the same press, packaged at the factory, distributed out to every store and supply warehouse, then randomly pulled from the rack of the supplier where I'm buying them from and receive every set as a bad batch ?

The odds are excellent, if you're buying several sets of strings at a time from the same source, that they came in on a single shipment and were manufactured at the same time. Read Posts #4 and #5 above; others have had experience with D'Addario strings where the loops weren't twisted tight enough. They sold a gazillion Toyotas and only a few had the accelerators stick; nonetheless that's what happened. Again, if you read the above posts, D'Addario sent replacement strings that worked OK, when the problem was brought to the company's attention.

Start with the simplest and most evident possible solution. If that doesn't work, try other expedients. If I made 40K of anything per diem, chances are that a few defectives might slip through. Get some other strings, by whatever manufacturer, and see if the problem persists.

If all else fails, try exorcism...

Grommet
Jul-13-2010, 12:07am
Probably not related ...but,

I just tried J74s for the first time last week. They sound good. They didn't seem to stretch as much as some, but... there was one string in the pack that had a loop end that had already been closed up like a noose! I don't think it actually slipped closed during mfg, but perhaps it was given a few extra twists on the loop end. Hada take few twists out to get it over the post on the tailpiece. Held up ok for a week now.


Scott

mandroid
Jul-13-2010, 12:59am
If the loop is not well formed it will unwind,, Ive Had Ball end Electric strings which had a dab of solder applied.

Presume that is for string bending and whammy bars players, but a pinhead sized dab of [acid core] solder may stop that on mandolin E strings too.

a well formed loop -----|||\\\\\\\<O the wraps straight across " ||| " help keep the loop from slipping..

Paul Statman
Jul-13-2010, 12:38pm
Some of you may remember when D'Addario dropped their practice of winding a little red fuzz into the loop twist (to reduce sympathetic vibration?) and dropped solder onto the twist to prevent slippage. I switched to GHS shortly thereafter, and by the time I returned to using D'Addario, they'd ceased that practice, too. The only trouble I've had since then was E string breakages in the J75 sets. They seem to have fixed that now.

Jim Garber
Jul-13-2010, 12:59pm
D'Addario might like to hear from you. A number of years ago I put a set on a guitar and a string broke immediately. I sent it back to them with a detailed description and I got a very nice letter from the R&D dept saying they appreciate customers who do this so they can make a better product. They also sent me a set plus one of the strings that broke. It is worth a try. You might even try calling them.

Paul Statman
Jul-13-2010, 1:05pm
I eventually called them last year to tell them about my many replacements of their the duff .015" E (after reading a success story from another member) and they sent me a couple of fresh J75 sets and a sealed pack of 10 replacement E strings.
*I am well stocked with music wire .012" and .016" for when I used to get stuck with gauges I didn't like.

8STRINGR
Jul-17-2010, 9:36pm
Well folks, I just made a discovery. Once again I'm changing out the stretch looped strings and just found that my tuning machine posts are "loose as a goose". So far, it's the post for both "E" strings and I'm noticing that the tuning gear is moving when I'm wiggling the post(s).

Should there be any play ? I know that if you tighten the mounting screws on the gear too much then you have a time with the keys turning but could being too loose be the culprit all this time ? How loose is "too loose" and if I need to tighten them how tight is "too tight" ?

I do appreciate everyone's input on the possible "string defect" concern though I don't want to rule that out yet until I'm sure that by tightening the post screws this will now eliminate the string problem.

Thanks again everyone !

allenhopkins
Jul-18-2010, 8:35am
There is a certain amount of play in most tuners when not under string tension. I'm not sure what you mean by "mounting screws"; I would guess you're not talking about the screws that attach the tuners to the headstock. There is a screw (usually) in the center of each gear, which can adjust the resistance to turning; if this is too tight, the tuners are "stiff." If it's too loose (not to be confused with Toulouse-Lautrec), the posts can seem to "wobble" which is the effect you seem to be getting.

However: this looseness or tightness in the E-string tuners should have nothing to do with the problem you're having with string loops tightening. That's purely a string problem.

Let me make a heretical suggestion -- why not take the mandolin to a good repair/set-up person in your area, and get a pro to look at it. If you're gigging out with the instrument, it makes sense to have a good shop with which you deal when you have problems. I have a place locally where I take all my questions, issues, dings and scrapes, and they can actually do a hands-on diagnosis, which, despite all the assembled Cafe wisdom brought to bear on your problem, is probably the best way to solve it.

8STRINGR
Jul-18-2010, 10:25am
Boy, am I an idiot. Here's what I've found... The Bushings for both "E" and "A" strings had so much play in them that one of them actually fell out of the hole of the peg head when I had turned the mandolin over to check one of the other post. There was hardly any play in the "D" and "G" posts. I'm definately going to have this looked into. I guess that explains why it was only happening with just the Steel strings and not the Wound strings.

The constant "retuning" to get the strings to pitch could 've been drawing those posts toward the tailpiece and the strings held out beyond the tension specs than normally expected therefore the loop(s) gave way by slipping.

I'm not sure how they would "size down" the holes for the existing (new) bushings to stay in place unless you have to "size up" with bushings to fit the holes.

Thanks again for everyone's helpful advice ! I'll be sure to let you know how the "discovered & overlooked problem" with the bushing gets resolved.

** AND in advance, I'd like to opologise if I had tarnished the D'Addario String Company to the readers in any way which has been purely unintentional.

Dobe
Jul-18-2010, 12:29pm
I get that a little on most builds, just a little tape or teflon tape on the bushing will snug them up. I suspect it's more to do with slipping tuning post / gears; if the bushing is sloppy you'll just get stiffer movement as the post is not perfectly vertical (slightly angled) with the others on the plate. Good luck !

Anyone have any used Cello strings for a student model ?? Need a (low) C and (high) A.

Thanks !