Is it EAS or GAS? Why wasn't I warned...

[Don Christy]

After forming a band, my acquisition syndrome has shifted from mandolins to equipment. Why wasn't I warned? I thought this was a community. :crying:

PA, mixer, 58s and 57s, cables, stands. Wait, how about feedback buster. Maybe some at4033 condensers. Need a better mixer. Need better monitors. Need a rack to hold this stuff. Why are microphone wind screens so expensive? Need a stage snake now. Might as well buy some books on live mixing and sound reinforcement. Does it end? I'm sticking to relatively inexpensive equipment (behringer, mackie, yamaha), and it's still insane...

Don

[mandolirius]

After forming a band, my acquisition syndrome has shifted from mandolins to equipment. Why wasn't I warned? I thought this was a community. :crying:

PA, mixer, 58s and 57s, cables, stands. Wait, how about feedback buster. Maybe some at4033 condensers. Need a better mixer. Need better monitors. Need a rack to hold this stuff. Why are microphone wind screens so expensive? Need a stage snake now. Might as well buy some books on live mixing and sound reinforcement. Does it end? I'm sticking to relatively inexpensive equipment (behringer, mackie, yamaha), and it's still insane...

Don

Who told you to form a band? :))

Welcome to the world of the performing musician, where all the money you make goes to pay for the stuff you need to keep playing. If you're lucky, you'll break even. If not, like many before you, you pay to play.

Anyway, enough of that. Are you ready for the bad news now?

[Jim Bevan]

Alright, I'm warning you: You'll need a bigger van.

[mandroid]

16 tonnes, You work for the Music Gear Store Now.

[foldedpath]

In a former life, I was an advertising photographer. The civilians I dealt with were always focused on the camera gear... "oooh, cool Nikon bodies... look at the size of that 200mm f/2 lens!".

Well, those tools were important, but civilians don't see the support system behind that.... the lighting equipment, power packs and strobes, stands, generators, the truck to haul it all in, the model fees, location fees, liability insurance (sigh). The camera and lens were critical to pulling off the job, but I had far less money tied up in "camera gear", than I did in all the support logistics to pull off a job for an advertising agency with a hefty budget.

It's the same thing with music, once you get to the point where you're putting on a "show" for people, and not just playing your instrument at home, or in acoustic jams or workshops. There is gear involved, and depending on what kind of venue and audience you're shooting for, the gear may be more complicated and more expensive than just dealing with the tools (musical instruments) that are the foundation of the show.

The good news, is that live sound reinforcement does have a natural ceiling. You want to bring enough "rig for the gig," but not much more than that. There is no point in buying (or hiring) a PA system for 1000 people if you usually play in bars and clubs that seat 100. For band-owned PA systems, there is also a limit in the amount of weight you'll want to carry (especially for us older guys). This year I revamped my small PA system, spending some money to improve overall quality, but also to get the size and weight down. If it won't fit in the back of our little compact SUV, I won't carry it to a gig. But that gear wasn't cheap, at the quality standard I was shooting for.

If you get into recording though, that's a different animal. There are no natural limits there, and it's possible to dive into the deep, deep waters of gear acquisition and endless expense in the pursuit of perfection. It's easy to say that a Chinese mic is good enough, but if you ever get to hear the really good stuff... Royer ribbon mics, Great River mic pre's, Grace D/A's... well, just don't go there unless it's really important to you.
:)

But it's all fun, right? As hobbies go (assuming you aren't doing this for a living, and if you are, you shouldn't be asking about this stuff here)... this is a lot cheaper than golf vacations, or recreational flying, or sailing as a hobby. I keep telling myself that...

[jim_n_virginia]

Yeah I feel your pain Don! LOL! Buying gear is just as addictive! I have a whole room just for storing gear!

I hate to tell you this Don but your just getting into it! Wait until you wanna start recording and all the gear that goes with that! :))

[Don Christy]

Who told you to form a band? :))

Welcome to the world of the performing musician, where all the money you make goes to pay for the stuff you need to keep playing. If you're lucky, you'll break even. If not, like many before you, you pay to play.

Anyway, enough of that. Are you ready for the bad news now?

There's bad news? Oh no, what's next??

Though our band made a little cash at the first two gigs, I haven't asked the band to contribute to the equipment. I need some of this gear for house concerts that I am starting to host anyway.

And I imagine "band owned" can be a stress on the band too.

Don

[Don Christy]

Alright, I'm warning you: You'll need a bigger van.

I already joked with the band about needing a van! Actually, I have a VW jetta sportwagen and that will be my equipment limit (without passengers or the upright of course).

@mandroid: another day older and deeper in debt ... I hear you. I'll stay away from those "interest free for 12 mos" deals and stay with cash.

@foldedpath: that's a very apt comparison. I'm asked about my mandolin all the time. No one ever asked me about my mic, or the new mixer, or the rack to hold the electronics... And we're definitely playing for fun, not fortune. And I agree, I play golf (locally) maybe 4-5 times a year. Relative to most hobbies, this one is not THAT expensive. I've had friends that do many of the things you mention, boating, golfing, flying ... season tickets to sporting events, etc.

@jim_in_virginia (et al) thanks for the warning on recording equipment. MUST STAY AWAY FROM RECORDING...

Don

[roscoestring]

There's bad news? Oh no, what's next??



And I imagine "band owned" can be a stress on the band too.

Don

Right! No band is going to stay together and when someone leaves they will want to take something. Then there will be the arguments over who get what. Best for one to "own the stuff".

[JeffD]

Like anything else, you can spend as much as you want.

I have never walked into a fly shop and not found something I didn't know I couldn't live without.

[TonyP]

I thought all of our commiserating over sound stuff from mic's to speakers, to feedback busters, to monitors etc WAS the warning Don :)

I also decided that no co owned stuff. It just doesn't work out, believe me. And I disagree with the idea that somehow PA stuff is more contained than like recording. Because there's always a new box, or monitor, or mic, venue that needs something different. Just take your time and don't get in a hurry. Getting rid of stuff is always harder and makes for losses in the pocketbook.

[montana]

Think of it this way. I'm sure you have friends who belong to a golf,bowling,softball ect league and they pay to play and have to buy equipment. You are in a Music league!!

[Jim Bevan]

(assuming you aren't doing this for a living, and if you are, you shouldn't be asking about this stuff here)...

I'm a professional musician, always have been. I declare all my income, even those work-for-the-door Monday night gigs. BUT, I can write off all my instrument and gear purchases.

Just curious: If you are always spending more than you are making, can you still do this? Some deal about only being able to show a loss for so many years? Anybody doing this as a "hobby" (meaning, you have another career, with a taxable steady income), but declaring their gigging income anyways, declaring the purchases, and breaking even?

[steve V. johnson]

I think there's hope, as I seem to have reached a limit, or at least a period of low desire. It helped that I managed recording studios full of more gear than I could afford in five lifetimes, and that I was responsible for making the business payments on that stuff -and- for maintaining it all. The adage that I first heard from older guys in the Porsche Club of Indianapolis rang so very true, "It's not what you can buy, it's what you can maintain."

I guess it helps, too, that I've worked with the great majority of the hardware that I found most sexy and curious. For the studio stuff I didn't originally aspire to own it, but to see what it did and how it did it, so working on other folks $$s was perfect for that.

I now have one of each instrument that I can play (ok, I have two acoustic guitars), two instruments that I can't play, 1.75 PAs (tailored to where I use 'em most and to the available transport vehicles) that are dependable and sound good, a recording studio with two extra workstations, and enough spares to keep the PA and studio running when critical stuff breaks, and that seems to be enough. The newest of the gear was acquired about two years ago, most of all of it was bought used and it's all paid for, so all this stuff represents a large replacement cost, but much smaller out-of-pocket amount.

There was an article in Acoustic Guitar magazine about James Taylor. He plays a custom Olson guitar that goes for around $15,000. The sound of that would be tremendously satisfying for most of us, but the article said that when he performs he carries electronics that the guitar goes thru that cost about the same as the guitar. Maybe fifteen or twenty different devices. To make his guitar sound natural. That's a bit of a mystery to me, but hey... who knows?

It seems that we get what we need to get the job done. Then we get things that do the job better, and there are plateaus of desire/acquisition after each of those. That second one, tho... that can go on a long time. I got lucky that I was working with hardware that was better than my skills (I still am!), so I had to take the time to catch up to the gear, and that's helped my acquisition syndromes.

Enjoy your stuff, and most of all, enjoy your music!

stv

[foldedpath]

Though our band made a little cash at the first two gigs, I haven't asked the band to contribute to the equipment. I need some of this gear for house concerts that I am starting to host anyway.

And I imagine "band owned" can be a stress on the band too.

If you can afford it, and if the rest of the band is happy with your gear selection, then I think one person owning the PA is the way to go for least stress and most success. At least for casual, part-time or weekend warrior bands. Bands that make enough money to set up as a corporation are a different story. Looks like that's the consensus view among others here too.

I think one reason why some bands sound awful (aside from just not knowing how to run the system), is they suffer from the least-common-denominator effect with band PA ownership.... i.e. the stingiest person in the band gets to control all the PA purchase decisions. Not that price always has a linear relationship to quality, but you generally get what you pay for with this stuff.

I've seen some band setups where one person owns the PA, but takes a double share of proceeds from each gig (or whatever fractional share everyone agrees to). It doesn't require any of the other band members to front cash for the PA gear, and it can help defray the continuing maintenance and replacement costs. Just make sure the band knows this is basically a rental fee for the gear, and not paying into a group purchase fund.

[Don Christy]

@foldedpath: that's an interesting idea (an extra share to offset use/abuse of the equipment). Though I'm fortunate to be able to afford the equipment at this point (and we have a graduate student and underemployed band members), so I probably won't worry about that just yet.

I'm definitely not the stingiest member of the band! More like the only one willing to learn how to use the equipment. I actually enjoy researching, buying, learning how to use, etc.

Don

[allenhopkins]

Just curious: If you are always spending more than you are making, can you still do this? Some deal about only being able to show a loss for so many years? Anybody doing this as a "hobby" (meaning, you have another career, with a taxable steady income), but declaring their gigging income anyways, declaring the purchases, and breaking even?

Here's (http://taxguide.completetax.com/text/c60s15d080.asp) a decent summary of the "business vs. hobby" tax perspective. You can deduct "hobby" expenses, but only until you get to zero -- you can't use losses in your hobby, if it costs more than the money you make, to reduce your tax liability in your "main" occupation.

In retirement, I list what I pretentiously call my "musical career" as my main occupation. Therefore I deduct my instrument and equipment purchases, supplies, mileage to gigs, promotional expense, etc. I haven't gone so far as to try to write off my "music room" portion of my house, my telephone/internet expense, etc.

On the subject of individually-owned vs. band-owned, I've done both, and I strongly recommend individually-owned. If one of the band members has a favorite microphone he/she really loves and wants to buy, that could be an exception. But in every band I've played in for the past 35 years, I've owned the PA. Right now I have three systems: a larger 8-channel that I use occasionally, a Fender Passport 3-channel that I sometimes extend with a sub-mixer, and a Fishman SoloAmp that handles most of my individual gigs.

And an overall perspective on the economics of performing, at least in my area of speciality: I've found music to be a wonderful mistress, but a crummy wife, if you get what I mean.

[Bertram Henze]

Where does it end? Let me quote from D. Adams' The Restaurant at the End of the Universe:


The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy notes that Disaster Area, a plutonium rock band from the Gagrakacka Mind Zones, are generally held to be not only the loudest rock band in the Galaxy, but in fact the loudest noise of any kind at all. Regular concert-goers judge that the best sound balance is usually to be heard from within large concrete bunkers some thirty-seven miles from the stage, whilst the musicians themselves play their instruments by remote control from within a heavily insulated spaceship which stays in orbit around the planet - or more frequently around a completely different planet.

Their songs are on the whole very simple and mostly follow the familiar theme of boy-being meets girl-being beneath a silvery moon, which then explodes for no adequately explored reason.

Many worlds have now banned their act altogether, sometimes for artistic reasons, but most commonly because the band's public address system contravenes local strategic arms limitation treaties.

This has not, however, stopped their earnings from pushing back the boundaries of pure hypermathematics, and their chief research accountant has recently been appointed Professor of Neomathematics at the University of Maximegalon, in recognition of both his General and Special Theories of Disaster Area Tax Returns, in which he proves that the whole fabric of the space-time continuum is not merely curved, it is in fact totally bent.

Down on the dry, red world of Kakrafoon, in the middle of the vast Rudlit Desert, the stage technicians were testing the sound system.

That is to say, the sound system was in the desert, not the technicians. They had retreated to the safety of Disaster Area's giant control ship which hung in orbit some four hundred miles above the planet, and they were testing the sound from there. Anyone within five miles of the speaker silos wouldn't have survived the tuning up.

If Arthur Dent had been within five miles of the speaker silos his expiring thought would have been that in both size and shape the sound rig closely resembled Manhattan. Risen out of the silos, the neutron phase speaker stacks towered monstrously against the sky, obscuring the banks of plutonium reactors and seismic amps behind them.

Buried deep in concrete bunkers beneath the city of speakers lay the instruments that the musicians would control from their ship, the massive photon-ajuitar, the bass detonator and the Megabang drum complex.

It was going to be a noisy show.

Aboard the giant control ship, all was activity and bustle. Hotblack Desiato's limoship, a mere tadpole beside it, had arrived and docked, and the lamented gentleman was being transported down to the high vaulted corridors to meet the medium who was going to interpret his psychic impulses on to the ajuitar keyboard.

A doctor, a logician and a marine biologist had also just arrived, flown in at a phenomenal expense from Maximegalon to try to reason with the lead singer who had locked himself in the bathroom with a bottle of pills and was refusing to come out till it could be proved conclusively to him that he wasn't a fish. The bass player was busy machine-gunning his bedroom and the drummer was nowhere on board.

Frantic inquiries led to the discovery that he was standing on a beach on Santraginus V over a hundred light years away where, he claimed, he had been happy for half an hour now and had found a small stone that would be his friend.

The band's manager was profoundly relieved. It meant that for the seventeenth time on this tour the drums would be played by a robot and that therefore the timing of the cymballistics would be right....


I, for once, would rather be that drummer ;)

[Don Christy]

Do the robots get a share of the proceeds?

[mannc385]

Okay another warning, not only will you get the chance to purchase the PA stuff you will also get to set it up all the time while the others are tuning or working on their break. Don't even think about building an instrument! Be warned, wood working is also like the old saying with a boat. Small box on the water you just through money in. Kidding aside, like the others have said it depends on your hobby. Bass boats easy 15 grand. Harley, about 20 g's. If you enjoy it, can pay for it then do it while you can. No one goes thru the cemetery looking for the headstone that says "I wish I had spent more time at the office."

[barney 59]

You've formed a band(business) and you can tax deduct this stuff,van too all or part, and you can amortize it as well so you get a tax deduction over several years if that works better for you .You can buy a Loar and write that off! You don't actually have to make a profit either -- the tax man knows that when you start a "new" business that for a period of time the money goes out faster than it comes in and you will declare a loss. It shouldn't be any different for a musical enterprise than it is for say a restaurant enterprise--most of the time they don't make any money at first, and a lot of the time never. They can both be businesses and the expenses are therefore tax deductible. There are other great things about being in business for yourself-such as writing off health insurance and the amount that you can put into an IRA. As a musician though, as opposed to a restaurant, if you continue to never make a profit they may decide that what you are doing is in fact "a hobby" and not a business, that can get messy! This recently happened to an artist friend of mine who is really well known in the art world, is collected by many museums and I know of at least 4 books about him. He taught at University level and since his retirement from that he has been working in his studio and at almost 80 years old still puts in 10 -12 hour days. Mostly he has been doing sculpture and sending these giant things to the foundry to be cast in bronze. These things cost a fortune to do and at 2 to 3 a year for the last few years a great deal of money has been going out. Only problem is he doesn't put much effort into actually trying to sell anything, he just wants to do as much work as can in the time he has left. Tax man calls him in and decides that in fact what he is doing is a "hobby" even though it is what he had been doing and paying taxes for for decades. They are declaring that he now owes back taxes because they say his loses weere not legitimate. He now has a tax lawyer trying to fix his problem. I find that starting a business and then after a while dissolving it and starting another seems to work-- so far. Using your home(like for a studio) as a tax write off is kind of double edged. If you sell your home more of it can subject to capitol gain and that might or might not work for you.

[kjbllc]

how many people in the band and how big of a place is the question. I ended up in a duo because (partly) of all the stuff. The other guy has not experienced the big band thing and when he talks of adding another person.. I bring up the extra stuff we need to carry the setting up the space we occupy and it sort of ends there. In one band had two leslie cabs plus a b3 in a 5 piece band bass bins the whole works, I think thats where i hurt my back.
The other thing is your hearing, how important is it to you, the more stuff you got the louder it usually becomes. Believe it or not people have hearing loss in a symphony orchestra with no reinforcement.
As mentioned the setting up, but there is more, getting the system balanced and thinking about it through the performance at first will take away from your music, and when something doesn't work and you start in 5 minutes and nothing is coming out of the speakers, not a good feeling.
Don't want to discourage you in any way, have fun I only regret the tinnitus mostly.