Re: can someone figure this instrument out ?

[floridartist]

Hello, is this called a mandola,? if it is the right name, can someone tell me who made this mandola? it has a white star on the truss rod cover, there are no other makings, also in stringing this, would one string it with a nut on the end of the string, like a guitar string, or string it through the loop of the string? and the best way to do it, hey thank you very much. John

[JEStanek]

Floridartist,
I moved your post to a new thread in the hopes that more people would see it. Welcome to the Café.

Jamie

[MikeEdgerton]

It looks a bit like some of the instruments built by the Soares'y family from Portugal but that's just a guess. It's a rather out of wack copy of the classic Gibson F5 style body with a tailpiece not unlike many archtop Jazz guitars. It was not built by any of the major builders of mandolin family instruments. It's missing the bridge. As far as the question regarding stringing, how do the strings attach to the tailpiece?

[mrmando]

I'm not really sure how big this thing is. What's the distance from the nut to the 12th fret?

[allenhopkins]

Tailpiece has holes, probably to accommodate ball-end strings. It has a looped cord to attach it to the end pin, similar to a violin tailpiece. This is likely to multiply tuning problems, since unlike the standard fixed mandolin tailpiece, varying the tension on any string (tuning up or down) will also affect all the other strings. Probably why mandolins don't have violin-style tailpieces!

I would guess that the threaded brass "nuts" on the tailpiece cord are to adjust its length (?). I like Mike E's Soares'y guess. There's a pic of a Soares'y mando-bass here (http://www.mandolin-player.com/buyers-guide/productinfo.html?serienr=2661) and it seems to have the same type of tailpiece set-up, as well as a similarly awkward scroll. Different headstock shape, though.

As to whether it's a mandolin or mandola, that's dependent on its size. If the OP can send us its dimensions, that would help.

"Off" brand, and I'd guess European rather than Asian, but hard to tell.

[delsbrother]

This is a Soares'y instrument; I have an archtop plectrum guitar that uses the same tailpiece and inlays. It was made in Portugal, with all-plywood construction.

[billkilpatrick]

"all plywood construction" ... u-mmm!

i agree with allen - tuning the thing will be a nightmare. as you tighten one side of the end piece, the other will swivel to accomodate the tension - it'll be a back and forth operation until you get it right.

a purely subjective observation - in no way meant to prejudice you in your appreciation of the instrument ... that scroll's a dilly.

[floridartist]

Your answers to my question about this instument is starting to make sence, with that said being I bought a MK Mandolin from a hippy that lived in A Florida swamp, and he tossed in this Mandola and a buntch of learning CDs and books for a total deal of $400, he did say this instument was made in Portagal, I have had a very hard time in keeping it in tune, I bought some new strings, but they had the loops, so that put me in a loop, till I took off the nuts from the old strings and put them on the new strings, that took some time, and broke a string doing it, I think if its possible to string it with loop strings would make a better look and possible a better play, but the correct way to intall them would be required, as I know not how. Today I have it strung, I had to tightned the brass nuts on the cable with hand tools as much as possible, then to keep them from slipping I put one drop of krazy glue on each of the cable tips, It works, the instument now stays in tune.
A very interesting sound and play it has, as for the measurment from head to toe, is 38 1/2" , anyway, thats whats up, thank you all for your expert adise.
John, from Florida, inland of the oil slick.

[floridartist]

Thanks everyone, lots of skill and knowlage here on this site, when I become one of the great ones, I will be passing along some wisdom back to you all, OK, from the nut to the 12th fret we got 11-1/2" , also, yes it is made out of ply, and for not knowing the best way to tune it, I tune it at CGDA, I checked out the Soares'y site, it sure looks like the same company made this one, thank you for finding that for me.
While Im at it, here is a pic of a MK Legency LFS, my first mandolin with the mandola deal,
John, the guy near the oil slick.

[mrmando]

At 38.5" and a scale length of 23" it's gotta be a mandocello. You said you tuned it CGDA -- is the A an octave below the A on your mandolin?

[allenhopkins]

Don't think you'll be able to use "regular" loop-end mandola strings with that tailpiece. I'd suggest sort of "tying" the loops to the tailpiece end, by running the string length back through the loop, but with those little staggered holes for the strings, probably wouldn't work. Best bet's to get single ball-end guitar strings the same gauges as the mandola (or octave mandolin, or mandocello -- see below) set, and use those.

Soares'y instruments are sort of quirky and idiosyncratic. If your scale length's 11.5 inches from nut to octave fret, that's a 23-inch (+/-) scale overall, which says "octave mandolin" or "mandocello" to me, not even "mandola." Soares'y sells octave mandolins and mandocellos on eBay, so I know they make 'em. Here's (http://www.soaresyguitars.com/) their website; their styles and silhouettes change from year to year, so you may not see the exact instrument you own there.

[floridartist]

This is really a great site, yes, it is an octave lower than the mandolin, a good deep low sound bounces out of the F holes, I guess its a good thing to have nearly a one of a kind Soares'y, it looks like a keeper, another instrument to learn on, and I,ll stick to the string balls, thanks again for all the input here.
John

[MikeEdgerton]

I just looked at it on my monitor at home, it uses ball end strings. If you looped them though you'd probably destroy the tailpiece. As for it being one of a kind, it probably has siblings. I may have to go scratch my eyes out thinking about that.

[delsbrother]

I never had any problems with tuning on my Soares'y, but maybe that's because it only has four strings. I think the tailpiece is supposed to be like this one Bob Benedetto uses (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailpieces/Archtop_guitar_tailpieces/Benedetto_Archtop_Tailpiece.html?tab=Instructions) . Don't know how Bob gets around the "flaw" in the design.. Anyway, the only thing I don't like about the TP is the nuts tend to dig little divots in the top. Luckily the quality "solid plywood" has held up so far.

[mrmando]

This is really a great site, yes, it is an octave lower than the mandolin,
It's a mandocello, then. Not a mandola. If you were to buy a pack of strings labeled "Mandola" they probably wouldn't work. Do you know what string gauges you have on it?

[floridartist]

I like the name, ( Mandocello) I ended up with a set of Mandola Lights, D'Addario loop ends, LEO 14 Plain steel, .36mm, and the rest are LEO 23PB .58mm, 34PB .86mm AND 49PB 1.24mm, Phosphor Bronze Wound, being I did,nt know what I was looking for, what would you sudjest? I have many sets of my brothers stinky petes guitar strings and had to replace one of the .36mm with that, it seems to work out fine for now, If you know of the right strings and the place to get them , I will do it, so far with the last 24 hrs, its keeping its tune with a small adjust here and there. I even got my own virsion of the 8th of January sounding good to me, its a fun instrument to play with, I like the sound, feels good.

[floridartist]

I just checked out your Bob Benetto site, can you beleive $104 dollars for that tail peace, I'm going take care of mine real good, this Mandocello is looking better to me by the day. thanks for the link, very much, thank you.
John,

[allenhopkins]

Scale length of 23 inches is either a long-scale octave mandolin, or a shorter-scale mandocello. String it either way. The way you have it tuned now is octave mandolin. Mandocello would be substantially lower-pitched: one way to look at it, is that you'd move your 2nd, 3rd and 4th courses "over" one course, so that the current 2nd course would be the 1st course, 3rd -> 2nd, 4th -> 3rd, and then you'd add a new 4th course tuned down to C.

Here's a thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?62305-Octave-Mandolin-Strings&highlight=octave+string+gauges) on octave mandolin string gauges; Here's some emando advice (http://www.emando.com/shop/strings_cello.htm) on building a set of ball-end mandocello strings. Down to the bottom of the Cafe forum page you'll see a CBOM Forum; that stands for "cittern, bouzouki, octave mandolin," and it's also where the mandocello players hang out. Good luck with the Soares'y.

[Bernie Daniel]

Originally Posted by floridartist: This is really a great site, yes, it is an octave lower than the mandolin,


It's a mandocello, then. Not a mandola. If you were to buy a pack of strings labeled "Mandola" they probably wouldn't work. Do you know what string gauges you have on it?

I agree with others that this particular instrument could probably be tuned as either an octave or a mandocello.

But just to be correct -- an octave below a mandolin is an "octave" -- a mandocello is pitched an octave and a fifth below the mandolin

[mrmando]

Scale length of 23 inches is either a long-scale octave mandolin, or a shorter-scale mandocello. String it either way. The way you have it tuned now is octave mandolin.
Nitpick: The way he has it strung is octave mandolin. The way he has it tuned is mandocello.

floridartist: If you like the CGDA tuning, I'd recommend getting some heavier strings. With the strings you have on it, you could bring it up to GDAE, octave mandolin tuning, and it would probably stay in tune better.

[floridartist]

Guess what ? Well it looks like I have been tuned at GDAE all along, I have been using an online tuner site that works pretty good, I also have been on the search for the ball end J78 strings, so far all I find is loop ends, I,ll most likely have to learn how to put the ball on them correctly, right now I am useing J72 in which I strung balled, ( gee, that sounds kind of funny) I sure have learned alot here from you folks, thanks again
John

[allenhopkins]

Nitpick: The way he has it strung is octave mandolin. The way he has it tuned is mandocello.

See post #21 above.

Oh, and John: I posted this link (http://www.emando.com/shop/strings_cello.htm) with advice on how to build a set of mandocello strings, using individual ball-end guitar strings -- so you don't have to continue saving the little brass thingies and using them on loop-end strings.

[floridartist]

I would like to thank everyone for the great links you sent me for the Mandocello/Octave Mandolin, from Allen Hopkins link to the Ball end strings and Soare'y website, with wisdom from mrmando, Bernie Daniel, delsbrother found a great site showing the tail peace parts of a simular instrument, I am sure you are a fine group of musicians, one is never to old to learn a new instrument, thanks again,
John

[Andy Fielding]

Of course there's nothing wrong with plywood in general. Many voting booths have been made of plywood, enabling people to exercise their precious right to elect the government representatives of their choice. (I realize this has nothing to do with mandolins; I often get emotional when I think of certain construction materials.)

[Tom Wright]

With that scale it could also be tenor guitar tuning, right? Single strings are a way to get the right gauge. And BTW, cello players everywhere do fine with tailpieces like that, even though the strings do affect each other some. The main argument against that design is that it is unnecessary.

I think it must be the case that 300 years ago strings were handmade gut, mostly and expensive as heck. A tailpiece shortens amount of dead string, saving effort and money in making them. But it adds mass to the moving system, slightly damping sound. Some modern string bass players are dispensing with tailpiece altogether and using short pieces of cable, a sort of tree to meet the strings. The main reason to have a violin or cello tailpiece now is simply that they don't make strings long enough to do without.

[floridartist]

Its been over a year since I chatted about the Soares'y Mandocello I found from a hippy living in a Florida swamp, I started diddling with it a week ago, its been tuned at GDAE all along, but I recently found its full potential tuned at CGDA, I am glad I broke a string yesterday, being the tuners were on backwards and it gave me the opportunity to put them on right, and I realized it take two sets of my brothers stinky Petes Acoustic guitar strings to make up a single set of Mandocello strings, all phosphor wound too, Ok, my question is coming, As you notice in the picture, the underside of the tailpiece, the little screw gadgets that hold the wire to the tail peg has been touching the body of the Cello, it even marked it up a little, the tailpiece seems too low,
I was also wondering if the tailpiece is set back correctly, how far back should it go?
and then with the peg sticking out, is that the way,? also, is the bridge set right, besides that, the instrument is working great, no buzzing, and she seems to stay in tune pretty good, I also found out from Mike Soare'y the guy that help create this instrument that they made about 200 within 15 years, and back in 2004 they made 10 of them with the wood tailpiece, so I guess that makes this kind of rare, which is cool, I also realize we Mandocelloiaens are a rare breed in ourselves, these stringed instruments have great potential, thanks for letting me share, John

[DougC]

I am a violin repair guy so I know all about cello tail pieces and end buttons. If this were my instrument I would replace this with a brass or nickel tailpiece made for a mandolin family instrument. What you have there is an overly creative piece of work that is not working and the end button is actually risking the damage of the instrument.

[floridartist]

Thanks Doug the Violin repair guy, your response has been well noted, I will contact Mike Soares"y to see if he can get me a new tailpiece , also apond further investigation I see the tail pin is takeing much stress. The good news is that I learned how to use the floating bridge, by setting the angle of it, it brings the tuning correctly as with a open string and the 12th fret, and then a little up or down help with the tuning too, not bad for a self taught person.
Thanks Doug

[Dobe]

I've had the threads strip on an Octave Mando with the StewMac ' Benedetto Tailpiece Fastener ' :

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailpieces/Archtop_guitar_tailpieces/Benedetto_Tailpiece_Fastener.html

Guitar tension, maybe, but I imagine a Cello would be too much as well. I replaced mine w/ threaded metal.

[floridartist]

Thank you Dobe, I just now got a reply back from the creator of this Soare'y Mandocellos, he is checking out his shop to see if they got some of the Metal Tailpiece, as for the cable that threads thru the wood tailpiece, mine was stripped out too when I got it two years ago, but I fixed that problem with some crazy glue and it has worked ever since, but still, I will change the whole tailpiece out for hopefully a decorated metal tailpiece of the right size, and also the pin on the end seems very stressed with all the tension, I cant see how it holds up, Does anyone know of a place where they sell metal or bronze tailpieces at the right size for a Mandocello.
thank you
John

[mrmando]

I installed a Randy Allen TR-1 (http://www.allenguitar.com/tpcs_tr-1.htm) on an old Gibson mandocello and it worked just fine. Not every mandolin tailpiece can accommodate strings that are the diameter of mandocello strings, but this one can.

[floridartist]

very nice info mrmando, I will keep that as a backup, I just loosened all my strings to see what is up with that end pin, yep, I had it sticking out and was able to push it back in, then slide the bridge back a little to lift up the tailpiece so its not touching the body of the cello, I might be able to save this tailpiece, all is looking good for now
thanks
John

[mrmando]

If you want to keep the tailpiece you've got, you should take the instrument to a violin shop to see if the endpin is properly fitted. It shouldn't be sliding out while there's tension on the tailgut.

[floridartist]

It does not move at all with tension, I think if I get a new cable it will tuck under the tailpiece properly, should I bring the tailpiece back as far as it will go when I get the new cable ? she is tuning up very nicely now and staying that way, it might look odd to you pros but notice how I have the bridge, this is a perfect tuneing with an open string and at the 12th fret, I am jamming now, it has come alive, Thank you Mr. Mondo

[mrmando]

Again, if you want a floating violoncello-style tailpiece installed properly, my advice is to take it to a violin shop. I'm afraid I can't tell you anything about installing a tailgut correctly, because I've never done it. I'm just not much of a DIY guy.

You could check the International Violin Co. catalog for a new tailgut ...

Good luck with it!

[houseworker]

If that were mine, I'd stick with the existing tailpiece, which is very attractive. Despite their apparent rigidity, traditional metal mandolin tailpieces are subject to the same twisting forces when string tensions are adjusted.

The tailpiece should be further back than it is at present. It should be sufficiently clear of the saddle that it isn't touching, but no further. Modern synthetic gut is normally threaded, and the length is adjusted using those brass nuts. New gut tends to stretch when first installed, and it can take a couple of attempts to get it spot on. Once you get it set right it should go for years without any further adjustment.