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Flyfisher
Jun-12-2010, 1:04am
Someone recently gave my daughter some advice by saying to improve her fiddle by learning to "play around a box". Then this week in another thread I saw someone give the same advice on a thread here in the cafe, only to follow it up with a statement that this would be too difficult to explain. So I am looking for a brave soul that can enlighten us.

Alex Orr
Jun-12-2010, 7:30am
I'm assuming they meant box scale patterns, which would roughly be scale patterns that (on a fretted instrument) extend four or five frets and go from the low string to the high - as opposed to a single string scale that just goes up and down the neck. However, the specifics of how she should "play around a box" are a little vague based on that statement alone.

carlnut
Jun-12-2010, 10:12am
Hello, I am the one that referred to "picking in the box". I didn't mean it was too complicated to explain, I meant I probably could not explain it. I took a few lessons 2 yrs ago until the money ran low and the teacher showed me how. Someone that can figure out how to create a fretboard on the screen should be able to do a show and tell. It is about the most important thing that teacher showed me. It is very important for penatonic scale improvising.

Flyfisher
Jun-12-2010, 10:51am
Thanks for the clarification. I understand pentatonics particularly from a guitar. But I am still figuring out the mando fretboard. I have the basic pentatonic scales (g c d a) in open position. But I have a feeling these references to picking in a box are about closed position pentatonics. I have also had a few people tell me to pick around he chord shape.

I have not made the step from simply understanding the concept to really understanding how it is applied. I suspect if someone could explain this a little it might help several of us who are developing our skills beyond simple melodies.

dochardee
Jun-12-2010, 11:13am
Take a look at Niles Hokkanen's 'Bluegrass up the Neck' book. He explains how to improvise out of a closed position pattern that looks 'like a box.'

JeffD
Jun-12-2010, 11:13am
FFcP?

Flyfisher
Jun-12-2010, 1:21pm
Carlnut. Can you tell us whether picking in a box is simply another term for FFcP?

SincereCorgi
Jun-12-2010, 11:46pm
FFcP?

Sure sounds like it. I thought they literally wanted him to build some sort of box to climb inside to improve concentration.

Mike Snyder
Jun-13-2010, 2:13am
The FfcP lessons available (free) are probably the most accessable learning form for this "box" concept. It's a teaching tool. The patterns were there ever since the first mandolin crawled out of the primordeal ooze. These teaching concepts have been developed to facilitate teaching the logic of the fretboard. 'Ol Bill, or Jethro didn't have access to web lessons, and got around the fretboard fine. We have access, so good on us. Knowledge=Good.

Alex Orr
Jun-13-2010, 9:56am
Carlnut. Can you tell us whether picking in a box is simply another term for FFcP?
I'd say it's the other way around. The patterns that FFcP uses are simply box patterns on a mando. Greg Horned uses the same patterns when he talks in some depth about scale shapes in his Intermediate Mando book.

Jim
Jun-13-2010, 1:34pm
Having started my guitar improvisations with "box" system pentatonics FFcP came quite naturally to me and has been very helpful to my mandolin playing letting me take on melody & improv in other than the usual keys just by moving the "boxs" around to the appropriate place on the neck. I guess I'm not alone in seeing the groups of notes as geometric patterns.

carlnut
Jun-13-2010, 4:43pm
Hi Flyfisher, I hate to admit that I do not know what FFcP is. If it is something that will help me, then I am interested. All I know is that once you learn to pick in the box most tunes can be played melody or improvisation with almost no thought. That appeals to me because I am old enough that I do not learn quickly and need to find easy ways to play.

Phil Goodson
Jun-13-2010, 4:54pm
FFcP Link (http://www.jazzmando.com/ffcp.shtml)

carlnut
Jun-13-2010, 6:33pm
Thank you Philphool, I will look at the link and see if it is what I need to advance. Sometimes I feel as though I am in a rut as far as learning goes. I live between Mooresville and Troutman so we are not too far apart. Thanks for the link.

Patrick Hull
Jun-14-2010, 8:54am
Okay. I am a self taught proponent of picking in a box. As was suggested earlier, I sort of figured out my method from playing the blues on guitar which does rely on the use of "boxes" to play pentatonic scales. So, here's what I did. I did get Niles' book and it is VERY helpful. I don't know if the musical purists in the crowd will flip out or not. But, the pentatonic scale I use is the 1,2,3,5 and 6 notes of any scale. So, for key of G, that would be....G,A,B,D,E. Then if you will find those notes on your mandolin, you will see a pattern on the D and A strings like this:
A x B xx D
D x E xx G

This gives you a pentatonic "box" from which to play around in the key of G. You will have to find more notes on your scale "outside the box.". Now, however, you can play a LOT of songs right there...Amazing Grace, for one...and "I Saw the Light" for another. AND, you can, in a lot of cases, play a "fake pentatonic break" by just noodling around there on a lot of other songs.

Now, the next thing you can do is move your "box" around. Move the exact same shape to the A and E strings and you are in D. Move down to the G and D strings and you are in C. Move up two strings on the D and A strings and you are in A. And so forth. If you have trouble with this, let me k ow, but once you get it, it's not too hard.

Next, you can begin to "fill in" the rest of the notes on your scale ( the 4 and the 7) and you can play full diatonic scales, and "find your key" pretty quickly. I don't know if this is a good idea for everyone, but as I said, I am sell-taught and it seems to have worked for me. Also...my method transfers to fiddle, with a few more quirks. Or to ant other instrument tuned in fifths, obviously.

Flyfisher
Jun-14-2010, 10:34pm
That actually makes a lot of sense to me. I come from a guitar background, and a simple pentatonic scale is actually how I think. Then once I had that down adding the 4&7 just came naturally. Seeing the pentatonic as a shape helped me move it to different starting positions to change the key. The relationship stays the same.

I really appreciate the simple diagram above. It gives me a shape to visualize when transfering concepts from the guitar to mandolin.

Just out of curiosity, when you play the shape above do you see it as a three finger pattern or a four finger pattern?

Patrick Hull
Jun-15-2010, 8:35am
I'm glad that makes sense. It helped me to transfer from guitar to mandolin. I don't think of it as 3 or 4 fingered, I think of it as a box. You have to work out the fingering. Another thing I thought about is that it is very helpful, in that you always know where your root note and double stops are, because, you're just moving the same box around. Likewise many songs begin on the 5th note and you always know where it is. And, I have found it helpful that there is another root, just on the next string up, and that is often nice to go to. Key of A on my system is a little more difficult because you have to move up two frets and add another "row." But after a while you get used to that. Let me know how that works...and like I said, this worked for me, but may not be a good thing for most people. Oh...and where it really works great is in playing background fills and the like to someone else's melody. You can work around on the box and just about anything you play will work, as long as you stay in the box.

Dan Johnson
Jun-15-2010, 9:54am
I think it's good to figure out that box stuff, and the FFcP (why is the "c" lowercase?), just so you can kind of get some dexterity going... but I also have noticed that playing "in the box" tends to kind of limit my playing, at the same time that it structures it... So play that

E-----------
A--2-4-6-7-
D--2-4-6-7-
G-----------

but I would also say that I want to do more than play what my hands know... I want to be able to play the notes that make the soul sing! And to do that it's important to listen closely as well as practice intervals and inversions...