Flood Instruments

[GRW3]

In Big Joe's post on the flood effects he noted that practically any instrument can be repaired. This reminded me of a conversation at the local shop regarding the possibility of flood instruments showing up for sale. Apart from looking for the out right frauds (like 'that guy' that keeps popping up) where at best you might get a warning 'as is' in the text, what about repaired instruments?

Let's use a guitar for example. What about a '60s era D-28 with brazilian rosewood? If it is rebuilt after the flood is it as valuable as one that was not flooded? What obligation does the seller have?

Bill Monroe's Loar may be worth a bundle even after being rebuilt from kindling but would a flood Loar retain its value?

The numbers of instruments reported as damaged/destroyed is staggering so this will be an issue for buyers.

On the flip side, a lot of musicians don't have insurance and can't afford to have an instrument repaired. Some will find a charitable luthier to fix their instruments but most will just be stuck. Rather than just throw it in the dumpster, if their instrument is even remotely fixable maybe they should be encouraged to try to recoup some money. A Cafe classified could be a good resource. We have a lot of amatuer luthiers and maybe they would be interested. (You won't be cheating them, remember it's dumpster or dollars.)

[mandolirius]

Does anyone know if any Loars were damaged or destroyed?

[CES]

George, I've had the same thought, and am curious to see what falls out of the "luthier triage' stations being set up...it's probably gonna be an instrument by instrument process...

[Michael Lewis]

Usually, repairs tend to devalue an instrument. Certainly the quality of the repair has an effect. The better the repair the less you can notice it and less effect on value.

[MikeEdgerton]

There is a Loar that hits the market now and again that was in a flood and repaired. The sale value usually reflects that. If you are buying a Martin guitar are you as worried about if it was in a flood at some time or the current condition and the sound? To assume that a large number of historical instuments will suddenly hit the market with problems that will show thier ugly heads years down the road is a little unrealistic. If the instrument has problems you're going to see them outright and if the condition is poor the price will reflect it. With that said, any instrument that has been subjected to moisture and then heat can cook in it's case. It doesn't have to be floating, it just has to be affected by the humidity. That could come from rain (walking carrying the case) or the humidity of the area you are living in.

[mandroid]

Suppose Thomas of Floodtone Mandolins, High and dry in LV Nevada, will need to differentiate his instruments in terminology, now.

[Big Joe]

Many of these instruments can be saved with out having to do heavily invasive work if they are handled properly early on. This flood, while devastating, is not near as bad as Katrina where there was a combination of salt water, much longer time in the water, and the beating they suffered by the tides and winds of the hurricane as well as the damage from other items falling on them. While some of them may have severe damage, much of this can be mitigated by proper handling. Those that need substantial repair can still be restored to full function and playability and those repairs needed are pretty easy to tell. When one talks of the value, the instrument is always worth more if it is functional than if it is useless. It may not be as valuable as its pre flood value if it has had extensive work, but it will certainly be functional and valuable from that perspective. An old instrument that is not playable or workable has very little value. If it is funcitonal it can have substantial value even with the repairs. The kind of repairs can make a radical difference and the quality of the repair will be the greatest difference.

With that in mind, we just got two more guitars in for restoration from Katrina just a few weeks ago. Five years after the hurricane we are still seeing them. I am certain the same will be said for the Nashville flood instruments. The sad thing is that there will be a LOT of instruments from the flood repaired that may well be worse off after repair than before if the work is not done right by competent hands. That is usually the case especially when one looks to do it cheap rather than right. There is a LOT of difference from "cheap" and inexpensive. I just pray the right work is done the right way. By experience that is not always the case.

[j. condino]

The sad thing is that there will be a LOT of instruments from the flood repaired that may well be worse off after repair than before if the work is not done right by competent hands. That is usually the case especially when one looks to do it cheap rather than right...I just pray the right work is done the right way...

Big Joe nails it with this comment. I'd guess that 75% of the vintage restoration work I do is damage control from old repairs where someone went the cheap route to try and save a couple hundred dollars and the end result is that the instrument winds up a basket case and having a street value a thousand dollars (or much more) less than it would have been if the repairs had been done right.

Earlier this week I had a fellow who brought by a great sounding 1941 Martin D-18. He came by with it a couple of months ago and it needed a fair bit of setup work and a full refret. He got pretty upset at the price I quoted him and took it to another fellow in the local area who quoted him about $200 less and a couple of weeks faster.

Two months later he shows up with a trainwreck of a guitar- it seems the fellow got in over his head, took the neck completely off, installed a new (wet) fingerboard from one of the mailorder places, reset the neck at the wrong angle, did a hack job on the frets where I was able to count 14 different high spots with the fret rocker, and- get this- he asked for a new set of Waverly tuners to be installed. It seemed that there were a few old repairs that made the headstock thicker than the stock one. Rather than saying the new machines would not fit and to try a different set, the fellow cut off about 20% of the machines- making them look like garbage, and then- countersunk the grommets approximately 1/8" into the original headstock- cutting through the Brazilian rosewood overlay, into the mahohgany, and chipped off a bunch of finish....

All totaled, the owner spent about $750 on this "repair" and by my estimate, and in the process he dropped the street value of the instrument by a couple of grand- all so he could save $200 over my price. THEN, the fellow came back to me with a sad look on his face and wanted me to fix it (Not happening!!!!). I've seen this same scenario dozens of times from the same "repairman"......

j.
www.condino.com

[Big Joe]

Yep. I could tell some sad stories about some of the stuff we have to fix that someone else tried to fix and could not. Some of them just make you sick. It's not that it can't be made right, but all the damage that was done by the first guy that makes it really hard. Not only does it increase the end cost to the customer, and often the value may have been decreased, but the cost to undo and then do right the job is usually far more expensive than the job would have been to begin with.

We just recently got a 69 Les Paul Deluxe (1st year these were built) that had a broken headstock. A local "professional luthier" had repaired it and charged the guy for the work that was done. He carved the back of the neck to the fingerboard for about 4" below the headstock, and about 1 1/2" into the back of the headstock, and epoxied a hand hewn piece of maple into the neck/headstock area. The headstock was no longer at a 14 degree angle to the neck, but was straight...except for the twist. The back of the neck was hand carved by probably a pocket knife and stuck 3/4" beyond the back of the neck making the first four or five frets of the guitar unplayable.

The owner was certain his valuable, collectible, and rare Les Paul would have to have a new neck. Once we saw it we realized we could undo the damage, and repair it. The work would be invisible, but the back of the neck at the headstock area would be finished over darker than originally. The good news is that we did not have to replace the neck so it is the original neck. That will help with value, but the repair was very expensive and very time consuming. It did not cost more than putting a new neck in, but it was still quite expensive. If someone did not tell you it had been repaired you would never know it, but it is a shame that a repair that would have been very simple to begin with would have to go through all this and all that money. I guess that is what keeps guys like us in business. Still, I love the instruments, and while I enjoy doing the "impossible" jobs, there are time when we see those that should never have needed the amount of work they do had they been done right the first time.