View Full Version : Emando or "kids electric guitar" for 8 year old
usqebach
May-08-2010, 8:42am
Greetings,
I am looking for some educated opinions on whether to get my 8-year old daughter an electric mandolin or one of these "kid-sized" electric guitars. First off, she's a whiz on a piano - only been playing a couple of years and can sight read two handed music. Her teacher says he hasn't had one like her in 30 years of teaching.
But lately (after watching an animated rock and roll band) she says she wants an electric mandolin. I think she intuitively understands the size difference, and she knows that I actually have a solid-bodied electric octave (www.iiimandolin.com), though I don't play it too often.
However, I was in the local music store, and saw several of these kids electric guitars which seem to work off about a 20" scale. I'm wondering if that might be a better alternative for her to get her rock-n-roll exposure.
Couple more relevant thoughts:
1) I could teach her a bit about the emando - but she probably wouldn't listen to me.
2) The emando is such a good fit for small hands.
3) If she puts down the emando after a week, I get to keep it! Not so with the guitar.
4) However, I could send her to one of the local music stores for guitar lessons, and there are a bazillion rock and instruction books written for guitar. Not much rock-n-roll mando music. (I can read music and understand guitar enough to transpose, but that's work. Also, rock music is written for an instrument tuned in fourth's-ish(?)
4) But starting out on the emando could lead to a genuine desire to learn mando or even fiddle (which I play as a primary instrument).
If you try to put aside the natural mandolin bias here (not that there's anything wrong with that!), could anyone make some persuasive arguments for either instrument?
Thanks in advance for any comments/insight/experience.
roscoestring
May-08-2010, 11:08am
With my children I always gave them the instruments they wanted (within reason$). If they liked the look or sound of it then they were more likely to stick with it. My oldest son (now 30) doesn't play anything. His brother (26) can play anything he touches. Their sister was gifted musically too. I never liked giving them kid sized instruments because they would outgrow them and that would be a waste. Regular, full sized instruments may be harder to handle at first but they will grow up with them and the instrument will become more and more comfortable to them. My vote? Let her pick what she wants and assuming its a quality instrument get that for her.
catmandu2
May-08-2010, 12:26pm
Roscoe's right--get them what they want. However, I would definitely provide a choice--and first expose her to the other instruments you mention. I'm very glad that I started on guitar: subsequently picking up all the other strings was intuitive. Maybe, take her to a store and have her play both, side by side. All things being equal--whether she aspires to be a "rock star" like my daughter who currently swoons for the Jonas Bros and Hanna Montana, or play bluegrass--a small strat and a little modeling amp will make a lot of cool noise and provide a lot of fun. I got my first electric guitar when I was 11 years old, and it's a helluva fun toy.
But I wouldn't be concerned about getting a "quality" instrument--it's not like when we were kids: guitars now are as ubiquitous, and disposable and inexpensive, as other cheap electronic gadgets; like a microwave oven--dispose of it when it's no longer being used. The 3/4 Squire strat is completely functional, plays well, sounds good, and can be a fashion accessory. When she outgrows it, give it to another kid somewhere, or sell it on craigslist for $50--there are lots of parents looking for instruments for their kids...$100 is a small price to pay to assuage her rock & roll dreams. http://elderly.com/fmic/items/SQMINI-TRD.htm
http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/names/we-have-fender-and-reg%3b-and-squier-and-reg%3b-hello--HELLOKITTY.htm
roscoestring
May-08-2010, 1:39pm
When I was growing up my dad gave me his old flattop guitar. I can't remember who made it. The adtion on that thing was so high that I had to jump off the couch to mash the strings down. The neck was wide and thick. I never did learn to play a single chord on that thing. I ended up beating it with drumsticks. I was about 7 or 8 then. This thing was bad and the quality was poor to the point that it was unplayable. I have a $50 Squier Strat guitar that plays very well. The quality is there.
catmandu2
May-08-2010, 1:43pm
Yep. My first experience with guitar was at age 8: my dad had an old flat top in the closet that was "unplayable"-- the top was separated from the sides from the bridge back all the way around the lower bout--curling up several inches like a giant whammy bar. It was actually impossible to fret a note, but kids being kids, I strummed it and whammied it and made an evocative noise with it...my Mom, bless her heart, encouraged it... :mandosmiley:
Elliot Luber
May-08-2010, 2:31pm
Emando makes sense... get her a four-string, K.I.S.S.
1) Keep it fun, 2) Show her easy stuff that provides gratification, 3) Play little games that teach her to read the notes!
If she takes to it, she'll tell you it's time to practice. If not, giver her enough leeway to learn that.
Give her a choice. When I was four my grandfather asked me what instrument I would play and I said violin like my dad. The next week I had a shiny new half-sized violin, and I was on my way... even though my grandmother was a piano teacher and her family made pianos!
Tim2723
May-08-2010, 2:40pm
It sounds to me like she's not as interested in a mandolin as she is in an instrument that is her size. She might be only using the mandolin as her available reference for a small instrument. If she knew small guitars were out there, she might never have mentioned a mandolin at all. Decent kid's electric guitars are available today. I gotta side with the Cat Man. Get one, sell it later.
fishtownmike
May-08-2010, 3:48pm
I would take her to the music store and let her decide what she wants. I have learned the hard way in believing I think i know what kids want. Trust me it's not that easy. I built my nephew a miniature small scale Gibson SG thinking he would love a guitar since I do putting a lot of hours into it and he never took to it. He liked drums....Mike
catmandu2
May-08-2010, 4:07pm
Yeah...let the kid go crazy with experimentation--and they'll be able to play whatever they touch. But then, they might wind up like some of us...with a house full of instruments, chronic IAS, and stylistic ADHD.. :mandosmiley:
delsbrother
May-08-2010, 4:52pm
I don't understand the "if she outgrows it I can't use it" statement. Take one string off. Tune it in fifths. Now you now have an electric 5 string mandola. I have four of these. They're fun, and an easy entry point to the five course world.
B. T. Walker
May-09-2010, 9:46am
Daisy Rock (http://www.daisyrock.com/) guitars are great for the price, and are designed with young girls in mind. The size is right, and they come in an assortment of cool "fashion statements" (as catmandu2 suggests). When she was eight, I got my daughter a Mojo Jojo guitar which she still fools around on. Though she picked it out, her interests have drifted away from music and more to art. I think she likes the art on the guitar.
Dan Margolis
May-09-2010, 10:17am
Show her both, make sure she understands the difference, and give her what she wants. Me, I'd choose a kid's-size electric guitar. They're pretty cheap, and after she gets done with it in two or three years, you can sell it. Maybe I'm thinking too conventionally, but r&r is guitar-driven music. But if she does end up with an emando, maybe she'll break new ground with it!
As a long-time teacher, I've seen kids benefit from smaller instruments. For a little kid to get around on a full-size Strat or Tele can be very hard. Tiny Squiers are pretty good, but the tuners are bad--a real flaw in a beginner's (or any) instrument. Dan
Jim MacDaniel
May-09-2010, 11:06am
I don't understand the "if she outgrows it I can't use it" statement. Take one string off. Tune it in fifths. Now you now have an electric 5 string mandola. I have four of these. They're fun, and an easy entry point to the five course world.
Excellent advice -- and you got me thinking about getting one for Aidan on his upcoming b'day in August. Best case scenario: he becomes the next guitar-playing kid-rocker on the Disney Channel; worst case scenario: I end up with a 5-string eDola. "mandosmiley:
Jim MacDaniel
May-09-2010, 2:46pm
Here is an eTailer that specializes in small guitars, with this page featuring several "1/4 size" (19" scale) instruments: http://www.smallguitars.com/results.php?CategoryID=9
...and Master of None
May-09-2010, 6:59pm
The down side to the Daisy Rock guitars is that if she doesn't stick with it and you turn it into an eMandola you might have to turn in your man card - especially if you get the hot pink "Princess" model... :)
My son was 10 and small for his age when he picked bass, He started on my P-bass even though it was taller than him and did great. I feel ,as others in this thread do, that letting them pick what instrument to play is very important. My son has developed or inherited both GAS and BAS, I couldn't be more proud!
CelticDude
May-10-2010, 7:34am
Can you rent the guitar for a couple of months? This would give your daughter exposure to it without a major commitment.
At 8 my son wanted to play electric guitar. Although everyone insisted that he should start on an acoustic, it's not what he wanted, so we got him the 3/4 size Squier Mini. Three years later, he's still rocking, having learned most of the Led Zeppelin repertoire, he's been taking lessons for almost 2 years from a classical guy who does some rock, and has moved up to an Epiphone Les Paul. So yes, if emando is really what she wants, then I'd ultimately go with that. OTOH if it's rock she wants to play, then guitar seems like a better choice, and the 3/4 size (or even 1/2 size) would be easy for her. Especially if she's getting the piano so easily.
roscoestring
May-10-2010, 9:22am
The kids nowadays are trying so many different things than when I was a youngun. When I was growing up everyone wanted to be either a lead (electric) guitarist or a drummer. Times change. I remember when no one would even consider playing and electricified instrument in a bluegrass band. Now it's not frowned on as much. I heard mandolin played in rock bands. Rod Stewart comes to mind. I don't know who played it but I remember mandolin music.
I went on a cruise a few years ago and one of the guys in the band played anything with strings on it. Everything he played was electric. He played everything from gospel to country to rock n roll, Christmas songs, raggae, Jimmy Buffet, Led Zep, Charlie Daniels. It all sounded good to me. I would like to see an 8 year old girl rocker on elect. mando. Yeah.
Elliot Luber
May-10-2010, 9:31am
"He started on my P-bass even though it was taller than him and did great. "
I'm glad it worked out for him at no additional investment for you! In my case (I don't play bass) a friend who does recommended the Fender Mustang, which is smaller and thus perfect for young beginners. Looks professional, but it's an easier reach. My son started on one of those and we're now buying him a Fender Jazz bass now that his band is doing club dates at 14.
Elliot Luber
May-10-2010, 9:34am
The kids nowadays are trying so many different things than when I was a youngun. When I was growing up everyone wanted to be either a lead (electric) guitarist or a drummer. Times change. I remember when no one would even consider playing and electricified instrument in a bluegrass band. Now it's not frowned on as much. I heard mandolin played in rock bands. Rod Stewart comes to mind. I don't know who played it but I remember mandolin music.
I went on a cruise a few years ago and one of the guys in the band played anything with strings on it. Everything he played was electric. He played everything from gospel to country to rock n roll, Christmas songs, raggae, Jimmy Buffet, Led Zep, Charlie Daniels. It all sounded good to me. I would like to see an 8 year old girl rocker on elect. mando. Yeah.
I really think that changes in the recording business -- the rise of independent distribution -- has really opened the door to more voices, more variety. In our own area we see it boosting Acoustic Disc's ability to make more music available to more people. They day when Sony or Atlantic dictated what was cool are long over.
Elliot Luber
May-10-2010, 9:34am
... My sons won't listen to radio because it doesn't have the variety he finds on the Web.
Elliot Luber
May-10-2010, 1:47pm
" In my case (I don't play bass) a friend who does recommended the Fender Mustang, which is smaller and thus perfect for young beginners. .
Doh!!! It's a Bronco bass, not a Mustang. Sorry
catmandu2
May-10-2010, 2:17pm
Doh!!! It's a Bronco bass, not a Mustang. Sorry
And then they can move up to a Mustang, which is a short scale.
...and Master of None
May-10-2010, 8:09pm
And then they can move up to a Mustang, which is a short scale.
"Up" from bass to six string? Bite your tongue! :))
Seriously, I used to play lead guitar and tell all the bass and drummer jokes you've ever heard. I switched to bass about a year and a half ago because our band got a new leader who played lead and wanted a more acoustic feel and we needed a bass player more than we did a third rhythm guitarist. I have discovered that bass is far, far harder than lead guitar. With the exception of the occasional signature riff the lead guitarist can go take a potty break in the middle of a song and nobody notices that much. If the drummer or bass player drops a beat it's like somebody dropped a whole stack of plates on the floor in a library - everybody notices! (Trust me, having dropped the beat a time or two, I know!)
The bass and drummer jokes are still funny, though. :whistling:
Taylor and Tenor
May-11-2010, 5:39pm
I found a kid's electric "Strato" guitar at the town dump. I cut the width of the neck and converted into a four string octave mandolin (or tenor guitar depending on strings) and it sounds great. Do a search on Mandolin Cafe and you should photos on the old posting.
usqebach
May-12-2010, 5:00am
Thanks for all the great comments. Didn't see the 5-string 'dola coming at me, but that's way cool!
Actually, one thing on which I was hoping for some feedback is this:
After I got back into this stuff (fiddle, mandolin, etc) I am now recognizing just what a wide range of instruments are tuned in fifths. Without too much dislocation, one can pick up tenors (banjo and guitar), mandolin, mandola, octave mandolin and bouzouki, citterns and other such variations on the same theme. Of course the fiddle, my home instrument is in the mix as well.
The standard guitar tuning is such an odd beast, with 5 strings in fourths and one in a third (I think!). And what's up with that? However, for a long scale instrument, it seems that it creates a great deal of variety of chord options given the short stretches. So it seems to really work for that "voice." Yet if one learns the guitar, the patterns based on that tuning don't create a lot of other easy transfers to other instruments. I guess what I'm saying is that there must be something about that tuning and scale length; there's probably a reason why there isn't an "Octave Mandolin Hero" video game!
So back to the point, if I nudge her to the e-mando, am I opening up a gateway to a world of different instruments and voicings, or sending her down a pathway where she will be perpetually "off balance" and out of the mainstream if she wants to get into the longer scale instruments, especially if she wants to play rock music like everyone else?
What I've done so far is to buy a mandobird from the classifieds for $175 (not bad!). On her birthday in August, we'll take it to the local guitar shop and let her play around with both it and the kids guitar. If she picks the guitar, I now have a mandobird for me!
Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Jim MacDaniel
May-12-2010, 9:28am
Another option with the bird: you can tune it like the top four strings of a guitar, which is one tuning variant of the Brasilian Cavaquinho, which has just a slightly shorter scale than the mandolin. That way she might find it less of a reach for chords compared to either mandolin tuning or a longer scaled kids guitar, and transitioning to guitar later will be a snap -- and you'll still get an emando out of the deal, just later. ;)
catmandu2
May-12-2010, 10:06am
Recall also that folks commonly employ "Chicago tuning" (DGBE - top four strings of standard guitar tuning) on banjo, bouzouki, and whatever else...and is also pretty standard for baritone ukulele. Standard tuning (EADGBE) is but one way to tune a guitar--lots of instruments worldwide employ variants of this.
Reiterating, IME, having a guitar foundation makes everything else easier. I've always experienced all the other stringed instruments as simply a portion of the guitar. We'll have to mention David Lindley's well known axiom here: "it's all just a guitar" (or some such). I'm sure that mine is a common experience: after growing up with guitar beginning at age 11 (albeit, classical guitar, which makes folk fingerpicking styles easy), I picked up many other stringed instruments and styles of playing very quickly and easily: many banjo styles, dulcimers, dobro, ukuleles, CFAD and DGBE bouzouki, oud, saz, charango, 5ths-tuned, fiddle, and of course bass. Going from guitar to 5ths is easier, IMO, than going from 5ths to guitar. Albeit, the asymmetric tuning of guitar is not as intuitive as 5ths. But the broader harmonic range makes the guitar more interesting. Going to a 5ths-tuned instrument is fun after guitar--it's refreshing to refine the broad range of patterns of guitar to the fewer and symmetric chord positions and scale patterns of 5ths. But the trade-off is that 5ths-tuned lack the harmonic range of the guitar.
Earlier, we discussed that when you approach strings this way, you can "play anything you touch" with strings. While 5ths allows you to know the fingerboard and switch between mandos--big and small--and tenor banjo/guitar (I'll leave fiddle and the orchestral strings out of it, since that's another animal), a similar approach to guitar can enable facility among many types of stringed instruments. Consider: altering standard guitar tuning to open D, G, or DADGAD, is about as simple as cross-tuning your fiddle. The possibilities with guitar are great, and not necessarily more difficult, given a foundation with guitar.
Regarding your concern about musical context: another reason why guitar is so popular--other than its association with rock--is because it is an eminently versatile instrument. I enjoy my 5ths-tuned and play a lot of fiddle these days. But before I did that, I played many styles of guitar: rock, classical, flamenco, blues, and any number of folk styles and variety of alternate tunings. But all you need is one tuning, for diverse worlds of instruments and styles--from easy, lush song accompaniment by strumming a few easy chords, to Albeniz, Bach, Chopin...and Zappa; strats, archtops, resonators, 12-strings, flamencos...there is tremendous variety in guitars. All things being equal, I think a person has more potential for musical expression, and a life with music, by studying guitar over mando.
Mando is great, but guitar is a mutha that can do it all.
Cat, I agree...guitar is much more versatile in general. Sure, Sam Bush can play anything he wants on mando and make it sound great, but there aren't too many folks like him out there (and even he uses multiple mandos/tools).
Mando remains my current favorite, and I'd like for it to eventually be my "main" instrument. But, the guys I normally play with tend to like country/classic rock/pop (I know, I know, I need to find a different crowd, but I really enjoy playing with these folks :)!). There's definitely a voice for mando there, but it takes some work to get the right voicing at times. And, sometimes, songs just require the more versatile range the guitar provides. I try to transpose everything we play to mando, but on the spot transposition is tough for me unless it's from G to A...I'm working on the theory and getting better, but gotta long way to go.
There are a gagillion guitar players out there, which is part of the reason I love playing mando so much. But, if I could only play one instrument, it'd be guitar for the versatility.
OP, I think your decision to ultimately let her choose is the correct one...I love my Mandobird, by the way, and will occasionally come home to find it plugged in because my 9 year old loves the size/look, too. BTW, I'm making him do piano :)
catmandu2
May-12-2010, 11:04am
Having said all of that, the most important element in all of this is ear training, and curiosity. And perhaps most importantly: a lot of musical learning can be done with a guitar alone--harmony, counterpoint, bass lines, orchestration; for musical pedagogy, developing musicianship, versatility, and potential for musical expression, guitar is excellent. My flamenco mentor, Rene Heredia, said the guitar is "a miniature piano."
roscoestring
May-12-2010, 12:21pm
Having said all of that, the most important element in all of this is ear training, and curiosity.
Isn't that what killed the cat(mandu2)?:))
catmandu2
May-12-2010, 12:37pm
Isn't that what killed the cat(mandu2)?:))
I'll refer you to post #9 :mandosmiley::mandosmiley::mandosmiley:
usqebach
May-12-2010, 2:31pm
This has really turned into a cool thread! I'm learning a lot about all the various possibilities I did not know existed. FWIW, my fiddle is cross-tuned 80% of the time, and I knew about DADGAD, but not much else. I never knew of that Chicago tuning.
I detect other instrument purchases in my future! Like I think I can even play what I've got...
catmandu2
May-12-2010, 3:31pm
I detect other instrument purchases in my future! Like I think I can even play what I've got...
Hey, I'm glad I could help with that.. ;)
Sorry for the hijack; check out some of these oud tunings. If you think this is variety, there's a compendium of "old-time" banjo tunings online that's about 20 pages long. Note that there is much use of "portions of the guitar" (EADG..), etc., but the guitar probably derived its tuning from the oud, rather than vice-versa.
Arabic oud tunings
G A D G C – the most common tuning for 5 double strings
F A D G C F – a very common tuning for 6 double strings
C F A D G C – another very common tuning for 11 strings (5 double strings and the lowest string is single)
D G A D G C – an older tuning still used by many
E A D G C – a tuning for 5 strings (Syria, Palestine and Lebanon)
B E A D G C F – a tuning for 7 strings
G C D G C F – an alternate tuning
[edit] Turkish oud and cümbüş tunings
E A B E A D or D A B E A D – Old Turkish, Armenian, and Greek Tuning
C# F# B E A D or B F# B E A D – classical Turkish tuning and variant
B E A D G C – nother possible Turkish tuning (Note: Turkish classical music is written transposed, so that the above tuning would be notated as F# B E A D G[citation needed])
A B E A D G – standard cümbüş tuning (written D E A D G C)
Regarding "Chicago tuning," I think it's generally employed in lieu of an instrument's traditional tuning where a guitar player lacks knowledge or expertise on said instrument, or when a guitarist prefers not to learn another tuning and fingering system. It's often employed on plectrum banjo, for example. My understanding is that it became the standard for Greek bouzouki, supplanting DAD and CFAD, in the 60s so that guitarists could have facility with them. I've read that some jazz bassists even tuned up some cellos EADG (as a bass) to render themselves some facility with it.
Jim MacDaniel
May-12-2010, 6:26pm
These various Cavaquinho tunings should also work with the mandolin were one so inclined:
DGBD (most common tuning)
DABE ("Ancient Portuguese Tuning")
GGBD
AAC#E
DGBE (Similar to Cat's note above regarding "Chicago Tuning", I think this one is typically employed by guitarists who can't think in Cavaquinho)
catmandu2
May-12-2010, 6:43pm
And here's a link to that compendium of 5-string tunings: http://www.acousticmusic.org/Banjo-Tuning-sp-81.html ...of which there appear to be somewhere around a hundred or more variations. Granted, often it's only a single string being altered even only a semitone, and perhaps for only one song in the repertoire. But it illustrates how far one can go with tuning variations.
This is where music stylistic ADHD begins to become problemmatic ~o), (and where 5ths-tuning begins to look very appealing).
catmandu2
Jul-16-2010, 6:09pm
Something occurred to me today during a discussion elsewhere regarding ragtime and playing technique; (in this particular discussion, the context was specific to banjo 5-string fingerpicking style versus 4-string plectrum style and mandolin flatpicking). But it made me think of discussions here that ensued from the question, "What's a better instrument for . . . -- mandolin or guitar?" It occurred to me that the major drawback of mandolin playing--for the aspiring musician--is that it is flatpicked almost exclusively. This is a bit like, when learning to swim, only learning the side-stroke...(a poor analogy, but perhaps evocative). Fingerstyle guitar, piano, fiddle, doublebass, even banjo -- all involve rigorous training of the right hand. IMO, this is an extremely valuable element in string playing, but also any type of instrument playing, not only for righ hand deployment, but also for musicianship (polyphonic pedagogy). I am biased--having started off with classical guitar when young--but I suggest folks consider this when thinking about starting their kid on an instrument.
IMO, if someone is starting out young for the first time on strings, I recommend they opt for an instrument that involves rigorous training of both hands, even if it is drums...
catmandu2
Jul-16-2010, 9:40pm
Here's the thread, btw, since there's mando content and could be of interest to some here: http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/182791